MadModder
The Shop => Tools => Topic started by: Trion on January 21, 2010, 04:19:31 PM
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The mill arrived yesterday night, so I thought I'd start a thread about it here. Will be writing the thread similarly to the lathes thread, as a project of the machine and how I try to improve it. I am a newb to milling, so I'll be asking a lot of questions. In return, I'll take a lot of pictures hoping to entertain and possibly inspire some of you :dremel:
Short facts on the machine:
Sajo UF 52 Dual Mill
Year of make: 1971
Table size 1250x300mm (49,2"x11,8")
Feed on all axes, movement X/Y/Z 850/210/465mm.
Vertical and horizontal spindle are driven by separate engines 5 and 5,5hp respectively.
ISO 40 Spindles
Yeah, I know, I know :worthless: ......
The machine came by truck, and a friend of mine was so kind to lend me his tractor. It's still snowy outside, and the road was bumpy so I drove it to it's home at a carefull 0,9km/h :coffee:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2000-04-55_0003_resize.JPG)
Everything went well, and the machine found it's place in the workshop
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-25-05_0008_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-33-12_0052_resize.JPG)
Machine tag
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-31-00_0040_resize.JPG)
Some details of the machine:
The table had a few marks on it
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-25-21_0010_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-25-28_0011_resize.JPG)
If I have understood it right, then this is a small oil pump to lubricate the table and ways! It is ment for extra lubrication, while there is said to be some sort of permanent lubrication system that is activated by table movement. Not sure on this though..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-26-02_0016_resize.JPG)
Buttons to run the machine
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-34-36_0057_resize.JPG)
Oil level for the table
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-34-52_0059_resize.JPG)
The feed has built in end stop's on all axes :thumbup:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-26-09_0017_resize.JPG)
Lever for X-feed
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-26-26_0019_resize.JPG)
And this is where the end stops put the lever out of feed mode. To my surprise, the table has a degree scale, which could mean that it is possible to swing the table :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-26-31_0020_resize.JPG)
Front of the table. The lever to the right with the arrow behind has yet to reveal it's function, just like that flat screw sticking out of the dust cover..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-26-38_0022_resize.JPG)
Beneath the table
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-27-36_0025_resize.JPG)
Locking of Y-axis, and end stops for feed. I assume the square headed bolts are the ones that have to be loosened to allow me to swing the table
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-28-26_0026_resize.JPG)
A bit more concerning was the Z-axis. The end stop brackets are missing, and even worse, the Z-axis movement lock was also engaged - god knows how long it has been like that. It sure didn't make any difference to the force required to turn the Z-axis handle...
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-28-46_0028_resize.JPG)
Here is how the top of the ways look. There are some random edge marks which I'm unsure of how were made
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-43-17_0095_resize.JPG)
The strange surface pattern on the least used parts of the machine
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-43-32_0096_resize.JPG)
But further down these are worn off, and the ways seem wavy when running a finger across
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-43-38_0097_resize.JPG)
Here are the handles for changing the speeds for the horizontal spindle
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-30-24_0035_resize.JPG)
Handles for changing speeds for the vertical spindle. These are very easy to use, and require little force. Think I'm going to get to like those!
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-31-09_0041_resize.JPG)
I really like the oil plugs which are found around the entire machine :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-30-51_0038_resize.JPG)
The vertical spindle has its motor mounted inside the boom, that allows for free movement of the boom, positioning the spindle in any desired position along the Y-axis. For acced convenience, the Sajo engineers added a "tooth rack" and a handle to simplyfy movement :thumbup:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-31-28_0043_resize.JPG)
Vertical head, with 50mm quill, fine feed handwheel, lock and end stop
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-32-09_0046_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-32-23_0048_resize.JPG)
The handles for both quill movements are missing. I sense a job for the lathe coming up ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-32-36_0049_resize.JPG)
Maximum quill extension
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-32-57_0051_resize.JPG)
ISO 40 taper, missing a "tooth"
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-34-09_0053_resize.JPG)
The othe vertical head the machine came with..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-45-36_0079_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-45-51_0081_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-45-56_0082_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-47-06_0084_resize.JPG)
The one horizontal bearing block the machine came with. Is it normal for those to have oil inside?
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-34-16_0054_resize.JPG)
Luckily the machine was made before one started to have walk-in electrical cabinets :lol:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-35-12_0060_resize.JPG)
Ampere-meters for horizontal and vertical spindle
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-35-22_0062_resize.JPG)
They did however manage to squeeze in qute a few fuses into that small box..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-35-54_0063_resize.JPG)
Additional buttons controlling coolant on/of, spindle direction, use of spindle, horizontal, vertical or both, unknown and machine power
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-36-09_0065_resize.JPG)
The contents of the cabinet..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-41-04_0068_resize.JPG)
Initially I didn't know the age of the machine, but I found some electrical documentation with this date on:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-41-33_0071_resize.JPG)
Here are the schematics if anyone should need them
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-41-11_0069_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-41-22_0070_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-41-59_0073_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-42-10_0074_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-42-20_0075_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-42-35_0076_resize.JPG)
They even thougt of adding an extra outlet for a light! :clap:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2018-43-21_0077_resize.JPG)
Now on for some actual "work". Lacking ISO 40 tooling, a vise and an electrical connector i started to clean of the machine.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-41-36_0085_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-42-42_0088_resize.JPG)
Quite satisfied with how it looks, considering it beeing 39 years old.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-42-52_0091_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-43-03_0093_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-21%2020-45-23_0099_resize.JPG)
Now on for a few questions:
- How can I measure the possible effect of the wear on the Z axis ways?
- I'm thinking of a Kurt D675 vise, suggestions for better alternatives? Will I get use of a vice with swivel?
- I have no 40 taper tooling, but having read that the only difference lies the drawbar, I'm thinking of buying something american from ebay, as they are half the price of SK 40. It would be nice to be able to use the same drawbar on all holders, what should I get, BT 40 or CAT 40?
- When buying tool holders, should I get a holder for ER collets, or endmill holders for each endmill?
- What's most common/convenient of ER32 or ER 40?
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That's quite a beast you have there .... looks good though ... :clap:
Someone is going to have a lot of fun with that :dremel:
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Trion
Looks like you have a great machine there. A bit of work to clean it up and repair or replace a few items and you will have it running like a fine tuned machine. I will be watching your progress and wish you good luck with it. :ddb: :ddb:
Thanks for all the pictures, they were great. :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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That machine looks a real beast :bugeye: You will have fun with that :thumbup:
Rob
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now that's a serious mill :bugeye:
i can't wait to see what you build with that :thumbup: :dremel:
chuck (now suffering from machine/tool envy) :wave:
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Well trion you can rebuild Haitay with this beast. Nice purchase. You will not have milling problems in your future.
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trion,
Mill looks good when cleaned up. A bit of work and you'll have a nice mill for what you want to do.
Those marks on the column are called "flaking" they are used to help hold oil for lube and to make it look pretty. Can't quite tell you what you'll need to tool it up. I guess you need to look at what you want to do on it first. But you definatly need a good vise for starters.
Need to do a bit of thinking on those other questions.
Bernd
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A fine machine.... In well used condition...... :thumbup:
Enjoy!
David D
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Now on for a few questions:
- How can I measure the possible effect of the wear on the Z axis ways?
These are only going to be my thoughts on these questions since I don't have such a large mill. I did run something similar way back when I was employed.
I would use a cylinderical square and indicator.
- I'm thinking of a Kurt D675 vise, suggestions for better alternatives? Will I get use of a vice with swivel?
I would say it might be more useful, but remember you said that the table can also be swiveled. So it's sort of a balancing act here. Obviously a swivel vise would make it more versatile.
- I have no 40 taper tooling, but having read that the only difference lies the drawbar, I'm thinking of buying something american from ebay, as they are half the price of SK 40. It would be nice to be able to use the same drawbar on all holders, what should I get, BT 40 or CAT 40?
Not haveing studied the differences between the catagories I can't say. Take a look at Enco Catalog (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM), MCS Industrial Supply (http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm). Might help in deciding which ones to use.
- When buying tool holders, should I get a holder for ER collets, or endmill holders for each endmill?
I would get endmill holders. For a big machine your going to be doing heavier work. The endmill holders will be more rigid than the ER spring collets. I'm sure there's going to be some dissagreement with my statement.
- What's most common/convenient of ER32 or ER 40?
Again this will be dependent on what your going to do. Both would be nice to own but price wise could be prohibative. I would get the larger to start with. To me the smallest end mill I would use in that size machine would 1/4" (6.35mm)
Don't know if this helped much. I'm sure others will chime in and make a few comments on what they think you'll need. Take all of them in consideration and then you can make a more informed decsion on what you are going to do.
Regards,
Bernd
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I would prefer individual end mill holders for my machine, but due to cost I opted for ER32, you might want to look at ER40 size if you go this way.
Here are two arbors, on the left is a BT30 ER32 and on the right is one I made in IS0 style. I believe CAT is similar and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Notice the top section, on the BT it's missing, hence the different length drawbar.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/1024/Milling%20Tool%20Holder/Part2/IMG_3904.jpg)
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Thanks for the kind words and gratulations :nrocks:
Special thanks to Bernd and Darren for again sharing good advice :thumbup:
I found a small vise from a drill-press in the workshop today, will be using that one for starters. Might give me an indication if I should get one with swivel or not, when I buy a proper one..
I have quite a few different sized milling cutters, so I think I'm going for a metric ER 40 collet set. I can allways buy individual endmill holders for the cutters I use the most, afterwards. Or even try making some on the lathe, like Darren :dremel:
Today I continoued cleaning the mill, and have taken quite a few photos. But I have to leave for a party, which I'm already late for, so the pictures will have to wait until tomorrow :poke:
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Here are the pictures of the progress over the weekend :)
I still haven't got the proper electrical contact to be able to run the machine, so I'm using the time when everything is new and exciting to clean the machine properly, as it wouldn't have been done otherwise..
I continued cleaning the machine, and came to the electric cabinet. Here the oil had dried, so I had to use ethanol to clean it of. You can se before and after, as I have not cleaned the fuse door yet.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-22%2017-27-46_0002_resize.JPG)
When the cabinet was looking so nice and clean, I found the switches to be looking quite bad, so I disassembled them and gave them a cleaning
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-22%2017-33-12_0004_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-22%2017-33-19_0005_resize.JPG)
Here they are all assembled again :dremel:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2011-30-02_0007_resize.JPG)
Cleaned electric cabinet
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2011-29-55_0006_resize.JPG)
Afterwards I began to clean and inspect the table. I had noticed a strange looking M8 screw with two washers sticking out of the rubber way-cover of the Y axis, so I removed the cover to see what it was..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2011-36-43_0012_resize.JPG)
It seems to be the adjusting screw for the slack in the ways, which has had a shim mounted behind it. Not really shocking on a near 40 year old machine..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2011-36-24_0008_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2011-36-33_0010_resize.JPG)
I also removed the dust cover behind the table, lubed everything good and moved the table back and forth wiping of all the particles that came out in the oil, until there were nearly no more to be found.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2012-06-52_0014_resize.JPG)
Then the way covers were cleaned and put back on again
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2012-16-39_0016_resize.JPG)
Next was to clean the X-axis ways, so I cranked the table all the way to the left. Now I know what to do, next time I'm in the workshop and I'm feeling a bit cold... ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2012-24-04_0018_resize.JPG)
I noticed something looking like major swarf marks, but i soon discovered that these were part of the oil distribution system from the central lubrication. When I cranked the oil pump, I could actually see the oil bubbling out of these grooves. + points to the Sajo engineers for that one! :clap:
I then cleaned the ways for old swarf, before I cranked the table to the utmost right position, while turning the oilpump aswell.. I think I have now learned what is necessary, to truly appreciate rapid axis feed :lol:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2012-28-09_0019_resize.JPG)
Then I cleaned some various bits on the table, before I cranked the Z axis up. Not very hard work, but when the table moves about 5mm per revolution and you have the number 465mm in the back of you'r head, it requires some motivation :whip:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2015-28-26_0025_resize.JPG)
After having cleaned the Z-axis ways and given them a good lube, I had very good access to clean the stand.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2015-52-14_0032_resize.JPG)
But I soon figured I had to do something with the nasty looking coolant holes first.. I put my hand in one of the holes, only to discover it beeing almost top filled with swarf and some other gunk.. Brings back memories from the times I used to work on a farm :poke:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2015-28-51_0029_resize.JPG)
Luckily I discovered that what I had been digging in, was a filter. After I pulled that out, I could feel that there was only about a 1cm (0,4") thick layer of gunk on the bottom. The rest was actually coolant or oil! :thumbup:
But how was I going to get it out of there, when I wasn't able to run the pump? Yup, dont mind that big plate that's screwed onto the coolant reservoir, find a small cup (a spray can lid) and get it all ut by hand from one of those small round holes...
I got the 25 liter can almost half full, before a friend of mine came by. By then I had a mixture of coolant, oil and that thick gunk all the way to my shoulders, when he so kinly noticed "That plate in front of the coolant reservoir, It's just for cosmetics, right?" :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2017-03-24_0038_resize.JPG)
Then I did it the easy way, found a big plastic bag, removed the cover, and out came the coolant..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2017-15-43_0040_resize.JPG)
I flushed with some 50 liter icewater from the stream running nerby the workshop, cleaned it a bit, and woila :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2017-47-13_0044_resize.JPG)
How it stands now :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-23%2017-47-05_0042_resize.JPG)
That's all for now. I think project "getting her cleaned" is officially done. Next up is "proper lubrication" and "minor repairs", the machine has over 20 grease nipples, and quite a few things that show signs of wear..
I have also begun to think about moving the switch box from the table, and fix it to the machine, having it acessible close to the head. Would make a nice "control panel" together with my future DRO ::)
Questions:
What I allways refer to as ways, they are called ways, right? :scratch:
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You're making good progress with that mill Trion, Keep up the good work and the brilliant pictures :thumbup:
Rob
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Thanks! I'll do my best :wave:
When I get around to buy a ER 40 collet holder, I'm hoping to be able to make some progress on the lathes ball turner aswell :coffee:
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Trion,
First, nice job on getting that mill looking better. Looks much more user freindly now. :thumbup:
Second, yes they are called "ways".
Nice logical steps to getting a used machine up to home shop working order. Keep up the nice work. :whip: :clap:
Bernd
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Thanks for the kind words Bernd! I managed to squeeze in a few hours of shop time today too :)
Cleaned the cover and applied new sealant
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2019-16-49_0004_resize.JPG)
Assembled the cover, and began to wash the filter. This picture was taken before, unfortunately I forgot to take one after :wack:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2019-26-22_0006_resize.JPG)
All filters washed and mounted. Had to drill out a broken bolt in one of the mounting holes, and tap it up to M6 again
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-22-03_0008_resize.JPG)
Before christmas i bought a bit of tooling very cheap, but I'm not sure of the area of usage for each of the components..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-26-33_0013_resize.JPG)
These are the indexable cutters. Could anyone explain the usage area of some of them?
I guess the left one is made for milling along a face perpendicular to the table, can it also be used for facing?
The one second to the left uses the same inserts as the first, but seems to be versatile?!
The third one to the left uses different inserts, but is very similar.
The third to the right has yet to reaveal its function, or is it simlar to an end mill with a radius?
The second to the right and the one to the right have strange looking inserts, with an edge pointing out. Brand is "Safety", suggestions?
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-27-08_0018_resize.JPG)
My regular endmills, some newly ground, some a bit worn.. The one to the right seems special, it weighs about the same as the chamfered one next to it. Does that mean it's solid carbide?
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-27-17_0020_resize.JPG)
The facing cutter. It's about 100mm in diameter, but by the look of the inserts, i would think it was made for deep metal hoggin, am I right?
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-27-49_0026_resize.JPG)
Horizontal milling cutters. As I don't have horizontal equipment, I think I'm going to make holders to use them for vertical milling..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-28-00_0028_resize.JPG)
And what about this strange looking thing: It's named "Ball Point", is made in Sweeden by "Medir"
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-31-30_0031_resize.JPG)
It came with some papers for checking it's function. Is it like an edge finder or something? The 0,000mm measured deviation sure seems promising :scratch:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-31-35_0032_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-31-43_0034_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-31-53_0035_resize.JPG)
Here's my drill press vise, which I'm going to use for starters. Though the J.Parkinson 190mm swivel vise I was watching on E-bay went for only £1,70 during my lunch break today :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-25%2020-26-43_0015_resize.JPG)
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Ok, so the last post may have come over a bit on the bragging end. It wasn't intended that way, and I'm still not sure about the tools usage area. Anyways, today I got the electric connector needed, and fired up the machine for the first time :D
Maybe not the best picture, but both the vertical spindle and the Z axis are running! :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-28%2021-23-13_0001_resize.JPG)
I used the opportunity to run the Z-axis up an down a few times and wipe of old swarf that came to the surface
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-28%2021-33-44_0007_resize.JPG)
Everything electrically driven seems to work. Now I'll have to get proper oil and grease, and give the machine a good lube. I also want to disassemble the quill, as the fine feed handle doesn't seem to work..
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Ok, so the last post may have come over a bit on the bragging end. It wasn't intended that way,
Eh :scratch:
Heck no..... I was more than happy to see all those pic's of the tooling .... you gloat away :thumbup:
perhaps if you have a question about any tools may I suggest you picture just a couple at a time? You might get more responses that way .... :ddb:
Glad you have got it going, but your links don't seem to work :scratch:
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Trion, Sandvic has an application search in their online catalog, with lots of pictures. The link below should take you to the page I'm talking about if not just look for online catalog, application search and milling. Also on the left side you can choose the language. I don't use any idexable tooling so I don't want to give you any bad advise.
http://www.coroguide.com/
Oh, and nice mill, good score all around. :clap:
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Ok, so the last post may have come over a bit on the bragging end. It wasn't intended that way,
Eh :scratch:
Heck no..... I was more than happy to see all those pic's of the tooling .... you gloat away :thumbup:
perhaps if you have a question about any tools may I suggest you picture just a couple at a time? You might get more responses that way .... :ddb:
Glad you have got it going, but your links don't seem to work :scratch:
Trion,
You`re allowed to brag some..... But I must agree with Darren. Lots of questions at once are a bit overwhelming! ::)
Your question, "Front of the table. The lever to the right with the arrow behind has yet to reveal it's function, just like that flat screw sticking out of the dust cover.."
The lever will be the backlash eliminator. To allow climb milling in the X axis,.......
The flat screw will be the gib adjusting screw........
Probably! :thumbup:
David D
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The "ball point" is an edge finder. There should be a battery inside. Mounted in the spindle, when the ball touches a conductive workpiece the circuit completes and the LED lights up. You then adjust the table by the radius of the ball to be over the edge. They're much more convenient than a wiggler IMO.
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Thanks, will keep to just a few questions from now on. I'll try at least :lol:
Today I'm going to take pictures of all the cutters and look up their numbers on the sandvik site, hopefully I find out something more there!
Back lash eliminator, makes sense. But the handle is very light to move, doesn't seem like a screw that is tightening something..
Will try to open the edge finder today, hopefully it has a battery and works :zap:
Yesterday I finished of some other projects, before I started to look at improving the mill. First off was the X axis locking screw
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2019-11-24_0002_resize.JPG)
Pretty worn threads
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2019-11-41_0004_resize.JPG)
Tappet the table threads
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2019-20-23_0006_resize.JPG)
And disassembled the handle. A quite complicated mechanism came to light
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2019-30-15_0007_resize.JPG)
The threads are regular M12x1,75 so my first idea was to take a regular bolt and make a "helicoil" out of it
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2019-32-29_0013_resize.JPG)
Mounted in the angle grinder/saw.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2019-34-26_0014_resize.JPG)
Chopped the head of, mounted it in the lathe and made a centre point with the poor mans centre drill :dremel:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2019-41-21_0016_resize.JPG)
Cut it to size, turned it around and used some 1mm aluminium to protect the threads. Then I tapped the hole, but my M6 tap was only able to tap about 15mm into the bolt, so I was left with a problem.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2020-48-04_0020_resize.JPG)
The temporary solution was to turn away the threads of the original screw and thread about 15mm of it, and leave the rest at 7,55mm for a slight press fit when I drill the "helicoil" to 7,5mm
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-29%2020-45-23_0019_resize.JPG)
Thats all for yesterday, I'm on my way out for some more progress now :D
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Looks like your having fun and learning how make fixes to your mill. :clap: Great job. :thumbup:
Bernd
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Thanks Bernd, here's the result of some more fun :)
Let's just say I had a long day in the workshop yesterday :wave:
The assembled bolt with my homemade helicoil
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-06-45_0003_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-08-58_0007_resize.JPG)
And mounted back to the table. Some might notice the copper paste on the threads, after restoring a few cars, I never mount a screw without it
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-14-05_0008_resize.JPG)
Next little fix was the table X-axis handle on the right side. The handles are of the type, push in and engage, but this handle only had one spot where it was possible to push it in enough to get proper grip
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-17-58_0010_resize.JPG)
In all the other spots it only went this far in, and slipped immediately
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-18-13_0013_resize.JPG)
So I removed the cover
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-19-58_0016_resize.JPG)
Pulled the seeger ring and disassembled the mechanism
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-22-32_0018_resize.JPG)
Having seen a few pictures of polished handwheel edges, I thought I'd give it a go
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-36-56_0022_resize.JPG)
I should probably have started with some rougher paper, to get it all even, but then I'd have to paint the handle aswell ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-50-31_0023_resize.JPG)
Then i took a file and filed the "claw" mechanism
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2011-58-43_0029_resize.JPG)
Filed a bit on the counterpart and cleaned them
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-02-31_0030_resize.JPG)
Assembled again, and now it works great :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-10-21_0033_resize.JPG)
Newt up was the vertical spindle quill, which had bothered me from day one. As it was, there were no handles for moving the quill, the fine feed didn't work at all and the retracting spring was not engaged.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-23-34_0034_resize.JPG)
I don't have an instruction manual, so I just started at one point and began disassembling things..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-24-11_0041_resize.JPG)
Removed the retention washer and the dial scale
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-27-35_0043_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-29-59_0045_resize.JPG)
Slowly I seemed to get to the core of things. I also removed the bearing nut and the bearing, but ended in a hole cut in the casing and was not able to pull the shaft out this way..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-32-52_0047_resize.JPG)
To access the shaft from the back, I tried to tilt the head, but with no success :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-38-08_0049_resize.JPG)
Then I decided to try disassembling the main shaft, so started removing things
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-44-46_0050_resize.JPG)
Had to pull this of the shaft
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-55-30_0053_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-58-39_0056_resize.JPG)
Afterwards I found out that what I had just pulled of, contained the spring mechanism
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-58-52_0058_resize.JPG)
Without beeing able to make progress on that side, I started on the other. But before I could pull anything of the shaft, I had to grind down the nasty edges from when people have used the quill with a simple screwdriver
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2012-23-51_0037_resize.JPG)
Then it was just a matter of loosening a set screw and pulling it of
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2013-41-53_0063_resize.JPG)
A new rusty shaft revealed itself
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2013-42-58_0065_resize.JPG)
Removed the mountig bolts
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2013-44-17_0067_resize.JPG)
And took it of
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2013-45-18_0069_resize.JPG)
Still wanting to remove the main shaft, I tried to get the key out, but it sat in a key way which was perfectly sized for it, seeming to have a slight press fit. I tried heating the shaft with a heat gun, and cooling the key with some snow from outdoors, but no success
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2013-49-48_0072_resize.JPG)
After several attempts, uncluding wise grips and hammers, the key looked quite bad
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2014-15-19_0074_resize.JPG)
I reckoned I wasn't going to use it any more when looking that bad, so I figured I'd be a bit untraditional..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2014-20-45_0075_resize.JPG)
After having messed up bearing surfaces on previous projects, I was carefull to where I placed the grounding
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2014-21-04_0079_resize.JPG)
Welded some spots and let it cool
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2014-22-22_0081_resize.JPG)
A bit more welding and some minutes later, it loosened :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2014-28-19_0082_resize.JPG)
It seems to also have rusted in it's key way, which obviously didn't make it any easier to remove..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2014-28-28_0084_resize.JPG)
I then tried to pull the shaft out, but soon figured it was stuck by the tooth rack on the back of the quill, so I lowered the quill as much as I dared, without having it fall out, and pulled the shaft out :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2015-19-56_0087_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2015-20-08_0088_resize.JPG)
The only thing left inside the bore now, is the worm-gear for the fine feed
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2015-20-19_0090_resize.JPG)
The disassembled parts
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2015-42-48_0092_resize.JPG)
I figured I wasn't going to be able to get the fine feed shaft out without removing the head from the machine, so I started repairing things instead. The spring mechanism was first out, and as you can see, the part which is supposed to transfer the forces to the shaft, was laying too far to the left
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2015-42-59_0095_resize.JPG)
So I made some aluminium shims, and pryed them into place
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2015-50-09_0096_resize.JPG)
I ended up using three shims before I was satisfied with the result
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-08-33_0101_resize.JPG)
Here's the counterpart where the spring is supposed to hold
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-08-46_0103_resize.JPG)
After having had some tea and some time to think, i finally understood how the fine feed is engaged. It's all in the mechanism on the shaft of the rapid feed handle
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-11-41_0106_resize.JPG)
This shaft transferrs the forces from the rapid feed handle to the shaft. But if it is pushed inwards, the claw mechanism engages to the worm gear from the fine feed. So all in all, I had only needed to disassemble these few parts, clean them of rust and dirt, and put them back together again :poke:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-12-01_0108_resize.JPG)
Here you see the worm-gear counterpart
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-12-26_0111_resize.JPG)
When I get a new key, I'll be able to assemble the whole lot again. That is, if I remember where all the pieces go :lol:
In the meanwhile, i found some suiting aluminium to make a fine feed handwheel
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-49-56_0120_resize.JPG)
Bored it out with my new 18mm dormer drill :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-58-25_0124_resize.JPG)
And turned it to size
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2017-36-25_0126_resize.JPG)
Will have to turn the other sides aswell, but this is as far as I got
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2017-39-36_0130_resize.JPG)
I have also begun thinking of getting me some mint-green machine paint, as there isn't that much work left before I could repaint the whole head :dremel:
Oh, I managed to check one thing aswell. Thanks to kvom for the tip on checking the "ball point" for batteries, and yes, it had some :thumbup:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-15-38_0114_resize.JPG)
But they are strange ones, they are actually 12V each, labeled LRV08 :scratch:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-01-30%2016-16-20_0118_resize.JPG)
Question:
- I need to buy a collet set. I have seen CDCO reccomended somewhere, and they have very good prices too. What do you think of this CAT40 ER40 collet set? http://www.cdcotools.com/item.php?itemid=426
- Will I be ok using this set, even though I mostly have metric sized cutters?
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Nice write up. I had to do something simalar with my Bridgeport. No manual so I just started taking things apart. Had to fix the down feed on it. I did a write here somewhere.
Looks like your quite talentated a fixing things. I like your "I can do it" attitude. Very refreshing to see.
When your done fixing that machine you'll be able to sell it as a much improved machine and maybe even be able to get a bit more money for it. :ddb:
Tried your link. It sent you back to the home page. Searched for a cat40 arbor. Only two were displayed. Non of them showing a CAT40 ER40. Also did a ER40 search and it returned nothing. I'm wondering if he doesn't carry then anymore or just out of stock at the moment.
Keep up the good work and you'll have a machine to be pround of.
Bernd
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Minor update, a 5 pack of LRV08 batteries was just ordered from HongKong for 3,45$ including shipping :thumbup:
Thanks! A very skilled engine builder I know of, once said "The guys who put this together weren't any smarter than you." That about sums up the attitude he has to things, and he is one of those guys people go to when everything else has failed. I'm not that smart.. :lol:
Selling, who's talking about that? Well, I guess it's allways good to have as an option.
If you go to cdco machinery - all sorts of die makers tools - R8, 5C, 3C, ER, MT Taper Collets & Accessories. Second to the bottom, you find the kit :thumbup:
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Trion
I like the way you are going about cleaning, repairing and setting up your mill. If it doesn't work, take it apart watching how the pieces were placed. Figure out how it is supposed to work and why it doesn't then remedy the situation with adjustment, replaced or repaired parts. :doh:
Finesse will usually win every time. A BIG hammer is not usually the answer. I also like the way you put the anti-seize compound on the threads. If you keep the mill for a long time and ever have tear it down a down again you will be thankful. :D
I enjoy watching this so will be following along on future posts. :ddb: :ddb:
While I was posting this you made another post so will comment on that here. With work like you are doing here you will be "one of those guys people go to when everything else has failed". :ddb: :ddb:
Cheers :beer:
Don
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I don't see why they won't work. I do believe that each one of those collets will take a range of sizes. Just don't force a tool bigger that the dimension of the holder. Also the other way around. Don't squeeze it beyond what it was designed to hold and you shouls be Ok.
Bernd
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Trion,
I think metric ER collets are much easier to use with metric tooling. My ER25s are metric, holding 16 down to 15mm, 15 down to 14mm etc. If I slide a 6mm shank into the 6 down to 5mm collet, it will hold in place while I tighten up the closing nut. If I put a 1/4" shank in the 7 - 6mm collet, a third hand is needed to hold there while I tighten up. In the the set you linked to, each collet shrinks by 1/16"/1.59mm, so (for example) you would have to use a 1/2" collet for a 12mm shank and a 7/16" one for a 10mm shank - that one would have to shrink down about 1.1mm to get a grip.
Gloster Tooling in the UK do some reasonably priced metric sets - http://www.glostertooling.co.uk/Download/Engineers%20tool%20catalogue.pdf and go to page 22. Collet chucks are on earlier pages.
Of course, if you will only be using tools with fairly large shanks, you could buy a few individual collets in the larger sizes.
Andy
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Thanks for the kind words :wave:
Very good point there Andy, I would never have thought of that before I was standing there, short of one arm.. GlosterTooling had quite a few interresting things, but were a bit pricier than cdco machinery. Will have to consider that one a bit..
Yesterday I went to the local paint shop and bought some cheap metal paint. The seller couldn't guarantee me that it would last in oil and coolant, so i bought a bit to make a test.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-01%2020-05-07_0001_resize.JPG)
The color doesn't match perfectly, but we'll se when it gets a few more layers and dries properly. Then I need to buy some coolant and mix it up, before i lay the test pieces in it for a couple of days
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-01%2020-30-18_0004_resize.JPG)
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I use garage floor paint, easy to apply, tough and oil resistant.
Use a small foam roller and not a brush to apply.
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Hi Trion
Very interesting thread , nice big mill you have there :clap: :clap: :clap:
Good tip Darren :thumbup: your right floor piant is great for machines
Cheers Rob
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Long thread but lots of info :thumbup:
Paint is at the end
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1651.0
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Thanks for the replies! Nice thread Darren, I've read it before, but I had forgotten all about the garage floor paint, I wonder if it's possible to get the paint in mint green :scratch:
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This week, I've been to quite a few paint shops, but every time i say coolant liquid the sellers get the 100 mile stare, before they go searching and eventually dig out a barely used catalog from the bottom of a pile. Then a slightly evil grin comes to their face, as they look through the pages and discover the price. Cheapest so far is 700NOK per liter, equals £70 or 120$. And that is not including the 25% VAT, nor is it the exact same color as the machine. :bugeye:
I have also asked for garage floor paint, but was replied that it was like going to an auto shop and asking to buy a car. After a bit of back and forth, they found something that could suit the application, but they didn't have it in mint green, shocking...
So I guess I'm back to square one, with my cheap single component paint. Therefore I arranged a test :dremel:
Painted test piece, meets jar of old coolant and dirt
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2021-56-44_0001_resize.JPG)
I'm going to let it stay this way for a couple of days, if the paint still sticks I'm going to use the cheapo paint to paint the worst spots around the machine. Some day, I might buy a lot of polyurethane or epoxy paint and paint the whole machine..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2021-56-58_0004_resize.JPG)
During the week I have also gotten myself a new locking key :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2021-57-38_0007_resize.JPG)
So I began cleaning the parts for the head, and started the assembly
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2022-05-26_0009_resize.JPG)
Mounted the shaft and put in the new key
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2022-17-37_0012_resize.JPG)
Handle driving mechanism
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2022-36-17_0014_resize.JPG)
Handle dial
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2022-36-25_0016_resize.JPG)
Mounted and started assembly of fine feed mechanism
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2022-53-39_0018_resize.JPG)
Since I haven't finished the fine feed handle, I didn't continue the assembly here..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2023-02-56_0019_resize.JPG)
Instead, I moved on to the spring side
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2023-03-12_0022_resize.JPG)
After a bit of adjustment back and forth, the spring sat in it's place
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2023-37-05_0024_resize.JPG)
But the quill is not moving lightly enough for the spring to be able to retract it by iself, so I lubed it up with WD40 before I left..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-05%2023-37-16_0026_resize.JPG)
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Fantastic thread Trion, I'm luv'n every minute.:clap: Better than the movies I have to watch with the wife.
Take a look at CTC tools in Hong Kong. http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-Tool-%26-Work-Holding/searchpath/5294/start/82/total/147/Categories I just bought a bunch of ER32 & ER16 collets & chucks and the quality looks great. I can't comment on the runout yet as it's too cold in my shop to stay very long. I've heard from other purchasers that it's OK.
The prices are obviously VERY good. The shipping is higher than I'm accustomed to in the US but they are in Hong Kong after all.
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Yes great write up, I love to see old machinery fettled and nurtured :clap:
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Very nice write up.
As far as the paint is concerned I wouldn't get to excited about getting paint on the machine. The unpainted spots will give it character. :lol: Beside it looks great just cleaned up.
Ya, I know some people just love shiny bright things. :D
Bernd
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Absolutely great work. If I were to put paint on this fine machine, I'd use spot and glaze puty to even out the chipped areas. The stuff is great for feathering the rough edges too. Ifyou put it on with flexable plastic you can nearly do away with sanding and you can get into the curved areas.
Fantastic Mill!
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Very nice write up.
As far as the paint is concerned I wouldn't get to excited about getting paint on the machine. The unpainted spots will give it character. :lol: Beside it looks great just cleaned up.
Ya, I know some people just love shiny bright things. :D
Bernd
Wot Bernd said........
I love seeing characterful, well maintained, accurate machines. :thumbup:
Don`t do shiney...... No one machines with the polished finish! ::)
David D
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Thanks for the kind words :wave:
If you'd have seen my car, you would know that I like things to be nice and shiny, but it takes time. For now I have set my priorities on making some chips :dremel:
DICKEYBIRD: ctctools looks to be a very reasonably priced place to buy things for a home shop. I am already drooling on the BT 40 - ER32 chuck, but I also noticed that they have MT3 and MT2 chucks for collets aswell. Conveniently my lathe tailstock is MT2 and the spindle has a taper reducer to MT3. It would be a good step in the direction of interchangeability between the machines. I see a "poor mans lathe collet chuck" coming up on the horizon!
When you get around to measure the runout of the collets, I would really appreciate if you would share that information :wave:
Space Fan: "spot and glaze puty" - I googled it, is it the same as what one uses for cars? Not filler, but what's used for deeper dents? In my experience it is weak and brittle, didn't think it would survive on a machine in use, or am I wrong? :scratch:
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Trion,
In the place I used to work they had a paint shop for painting the machines for the customers. They used the that stuff to fill in bad spots on the machine. Then sand it smooth and paint over. You just need to make sure that there is no oil or any kind of dirt were you are going to put it. It's the same procedure as would be used on a car body. Metal is metal the putty dosen't know any difference.
I'm sure Space Fan will chime in and bring the finer points to the forfront.
Bernd
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Well, then my assumptions were wrong. Will have to try out the putty when the day to begin a proper restoration comes. Thanks for the quick reply :thumbup:
Minor update today, had nearly two hours of shop time, so I decided to finish the hand wheel for the fine feed mechanism. I have had some time to plunder about how I want it to look, and I decided for paralell angled surfaces, and a flat on which I can drill a hole and mount a small handle on a later occasion. So of it went..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2019-59-45_0001_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2019-59-52_0003_resize.JPG)
Bearing in mind that I'm still very new to turning aswell, i tried turning the outer surface in the same setup, and had thought to just flip it over and cut the rest of afterwards. But that would have looked bad, I wanted one clean cut on the outer surface, so I mounted it on its mounting shaft
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2020-22-37_0007_resize.JPG)
Just by using some washer and a M8 bolt
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2020-22-49_0009_resize.JPG)
Not the best assembly, regarding cylindricity or wobbling. As you can see, the tailstock center is far of center on the bolt
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2020-39-59_0011_resize.JPG)
But it got me going, so I ended up with this. The edge between the angled surface and the flat looks a bit ugly, but I couldn't come up with an easy solution to rounden the edge without damaging any of the other surfaces..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2020-43-47_0014_resize.JPG)
The rear surface, with the same angle as the front
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2020-44-11_0017_resize.JPG)
All assembled :D
It is a bit too smooth, I might do something about it when I have the mill running. But for now, it's ok!
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2020-53-41_0019_resize.JPG)
On another note, it might be a bit small. I'll have to see how it feels, when I begin actually using the machine ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-08%2020-53-51_0021_resize.JPG)
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Space Fan: "spot and glaze puty" - I googled it, is it the same as what one uses for cars? Not filler, but what's used for deeper dents? In my experience it is weak and brittle, didn't think it would survive on a machine in use, or am I wrong? :scratch:
Trion,
Yes any quick drying surface repair product for automotive will work. It should hold up under use as it'll be locked in by paint. Proper surface prep is all that is needed. In fact, many machines are slathered in the stuff right up to the ground surfaces. Makes for a nice smooth look.
But this mill you have would look great covered in swarf and coolant! Paint and finish is a lesser concern I'm sure.
Great work on the refit!
Barry
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Space Fan: I would never have thought that! Will have to give it a try sometime, maybe on the sprare vertical head? hmm :scratch:
Yesterday I stated on making the quill handle :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2019-10-47_0001_resize.JPG)
I decided to make this in steel, as I want it to last and be able to take a bit of abuse. So gatheret a couple of suiting pieces, and drew up a small sketch
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2019-29-41_0003_resize.JPG)
Mounted the fortunate piece in the lathe, and roughed of a bit of material. The chip breaker on my inserts (which i believe are made for a milling cutter) is practically absent, but I liked the color of the swarf
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2020-10-03_0006_resize.JPG)
Some finishing cuts later
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2020-18-09_0008_resize.JPG)
Then I made the internal hole, before i removed it from the chuck and went to see if my measurement were correct. Ofcourse they weren't, so I would have ended up with a pretty hard press fit if I were to do it this way.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2021-09-59_0010_resize.JPG)
So out came the 4 jaw.I got tired of turning the jaws in and out, so I got myself some help
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2021-20-58_0013_resize.JPG)
Then aligned the piece in the chuck
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2021-36-51_0016_resize.JPG)
before I opened up the internal diameter with a very light cut with an internal HSS tool
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2021-56-57_0020_resize.JPG)
Well pleased with the result, I moved on, and turned the part around. This time it was hard to get the DI shaft down to the workpiece, so I mounted an elongation. A bit of back and forth, before I ended up with a couple of hundreds millimeters runout
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2022-24-42_0023_resize.JPG)
Turned down the other piece, but got greedy and ended up braking a couple of tips of my carbides on the edge made by the water jet
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2022-43-20_0024_resize.JPG)
I decided to make the handle similar to the locking handle on the other side of the head, so I gave the part a 20degree chamfer. By then, all my small triangle carbide bits were worn out, so I'll have to take the finishing passes with HSS..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-09%2022-58-33_0027_resize.JPG)
That's how far I've come 'til now. More progress coming over the weekend :wave:
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I see you've got machining down pretty good Trion.
Looks like you'll have a very nice looking mill when all done with the little fixes.
Bernd
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Thanks :)
Unfortunately, I didn't get a lot done on the machine this weekend, although I had all saturday. Most of it was spent on other projects, like mounting new shock absorbers on the daily driver, and chatting with friends. But chatting can be a good thing. By the looks of it, I might just have scored a monstrous machining vise. But I'm not celebrating until it stands on the milling table..
All that I have to report, is that i ground up a HSS tool as described in many threads around here. I also gave the part a quick pass, before I had to call it a day..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-13%2017-46-41_0116_resize.JPG)
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That's a nice mill, and I can only echo other's sentiments when I say - that's some fine repair/remedial work you're doing :)
The only comment I'd make about your swarf; that really blue stuff means you're running your cutter really hot; that's going to kill HSS off in no time, dunno about carbide, but I think the fact you've worn them out may be related? Anyway... certainly if you're using HSS bits, I think you should either slow the feed/speed down, or take lighter cuts, or use coolant - your edges should last longer then. But your swarf won't look quite so nice, mind...
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Thanks, It's a learn as I go along. I have a project update laying on the camera, will post it when I get home :wave:
I have made blue chips with HSS a few times, but not often. It allways ends with me swearing and heading for the grinder.. :bang:
Those chips that lay in the background are remains from last time, when I used carbide. The carbide inserts that I have, are very strange and not actually suited for use in the tool holder that I have. If you study them closely, you'll see that they have strange looking chip breakers that taper away from the cutting edge. The inserts are good for surfacing, but turning is a completely different story.. The shape of my tool holders are not contributing to that either. It seems that both my left and right hand carbide tool holders are made for surfacing when turning towards the chuck..
But you'r right, I was running the cutter too hot. I'm hoping to get hold of some coolant during the week, should help a bit with that matter.
On another note, the HSS tool shown on the picture didn't work too well. I was getting a lot of vibrations and quite wide cuts with the big nose radius. Still need to learn some more about grinding HSS, I guess ::)
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The promised update :)
Finished turning the handle mount
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2020-05-06_0002_resize.JPG)
Test fitted it on the mill
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2020-43-21_0005_resize.JPG)
Drilled a 7mm hole for a M8 set screw. Lacking a centre finder, I did it the flintstone way and just swung the drill back and forth (it can swing on the shaft it's standing on), slowly lowering the quill until it just touched.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2020-50-36_0007_resize.JPG)
Then I turned the part around and aligned it, to drill the hole for the handle. Again, flintstone..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2021-26-24_0009_resize.JPG)
But it seemed to work and both the holes got drilled :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2021-35-10_0012_resize.JPG)
Then I tapped the set screw hole to M8 and the handle hole to M10, before I fitted it on the mill :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2022-13-12_0014_resize.JPG)
If you look at the previous pictures you notice that its only a "pipe" with a through hole on which this is mounted to. To avoid the handle from spinning on the "pipe" i screwed the set screw into the pipe's through hole. But then there would be nothing to tighten the screw up against, so I inserted a suiting piece of round stock into the "pipe" and tightened the screw against it. Sort of.. ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2022-13-18_0015_resize.JPG)
Next up was beginning to make the handle, so I found some steel rod and started turning it's length to get a nice looking handle
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2022-46-10_0018_resize.JPG)
But after several passes at various speeds and very low feed, the surface finish still was quite rough. My interpretation is that the material seems quite hard as the chips "crumble" of instead of spinning into a fine coil. Not sure if I'll get some other steel and make a new handle or try to salvage this one..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2023-13-47_0025_resize.JPG)
This was at about 700rpm, 0,1mm cut and the slowest feed possible..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-16%2023-13-55_0026_resize.JPG)
I'm thinking of sanding down the handle, just for the looks of it, but it will be a bit of work before it's going to look ok..
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Trion,
Freddy Flintstone would be proud of you. :lol:
Bernd
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Well, I gave up on the hard round bar and found myself a new one in the scrap box. This is mild steel which I got when we did pull tests at school. Machined away the neck region where it had torn of, and it was good to go :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2019-00-18_0004_resize.JPG)
Found a die and tapped the end to M10
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2019-16-34_0007_resize.JPG)
And turned it along the length to give a nice surface. I also made a section at the end with reduced diameter, to be able to fit a plastic knob
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-01-00_0010_resize.JPG)
And assembled! I might add that I'm just a tad proud of that ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-05-49_0012_resize.JPG)
If one should wonder why I chose the plastic ball on the end, this is where I got it from..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-06-06_0015_resize.JPG)
While beeing at it, I figured I'd do something about the locking handle aswell. It had worn threads, so I freshed them up with a die, before I wanted to fit a plastic knob to that end too.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-08-06_0017_resize.JPG)
But I found a problem, the inside diameter of the ball was about 11mm, while the threads were only 10. So I thougt about it for some time, before I came to think about this guy who posted his way of making springs on madmodder :thumbup:
Some steel wire was coiled around the threads, until it measured about 14mm OD. Then the plastic knob was drilled to 13mm.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-17-07_0023_resize.JPG)
I had ofcourse managed to wind the wire as a left hand thread, so had to do it again
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-20-03_0025_resize.JPG)
Pressed the coil into the knob
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-21-40_0028_resize.JPG)
And then there was just a matter of turning the knob on the handle. It was almost like winding it into some threds, and I was able to tighten it as hard as I could with my bare hands without it slipping
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-22-52_0030_resize.JPG)
Sorry for the badly lit picure, but here you see the improved head. You can also see where I got the inspiration from, for my tapered handle mount :ddb:
If I had a proper burner, I would try to heat up the quill handle and dip it in oil to give it a hard brown surface like the locking handle. But, I guess I have to leave something for me to do in the future too ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-18%2020-23-31_0032_resize.JPG)
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And proud you should be. Nice job. :thumbup:
Bernd
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Thanks :D
Off to the workshop to start on something new now. I have a feeling that a tool gloat is coming this weekend..
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Have you noticed how badly the switch panel is hanging off the machine? I certainly have!
Also, when the mill is running and I press the emergency stop switch, the whole shop goes dark as the ground-fuse (if that's what it's calles, anyways means that there is electricity going through the grounding wire..) goes out - have to find the cause of that too..
So yesterday, I removed the cover in front of the knee, to see what electrics were inside it.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2019-05-08_0004_resize.JPG)
Then I removed the panel mount from the knee, where a whole bunch of "sugar bits", as they are called here, were revealed..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2019-11-59_0006_resize.JPG)
The casting of the mount has been broken off and badly welded on again, not exactly plane to the rest of the surface, causing oil and dirt to enter and make a right mess of the electrics inside
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2019-14-55_0010_resize.JPG)
So I removed the mount, cleaned it up a bit and took a new shot just to show how bad it was
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2019-30-46_0013_resize.JPG)
Out came the angle grinder, and the big machinery fled to hide under some bed sheets.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2019-32-38_0016_resize.JPG)
First, I have to say that I have not worked with cast steel before!
Now that you are warned, I tried making a relieving cut in the old weld and then mount it in the vise and straighten it with a hammer. Only thing that happened, was that I chipped of the edge around the mounting hole in the corner :bang:
Next up, was trying to bend it. Again mounted it in the vise, and this time I took a good pipe wrench and applied ofrce. It broke off...
So I was left with the two parts, and now had to align them. First I ground away some of the old welds, then I mounted the parts on the vise's hammering plate with some vise grips
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2021-53-34_0017_resize.JPG)
I welded a bit on the outside, found a smaller hammer and pounded the welds, as I've heard you should to that when welding cast. Althoug I have also heard that you should use special flux covered electrodes, not a regular mig welder with CO2 ::)
Then I began welding from the inside, to strengthen the piece up, and avoid any major deflection.
I also welded on a bit where I had broken of the edge, that would have been difficult with flux electrodes!
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2022-21-03_0020_resize.JPG)
Then I drilled up new mounting holes, trial fitted it, and filed the holes a bit
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2022-30-31_0022_resize.JPG)
New trial fit, with switch panel. Seemed ok when i pressed the surfaces against each other.
I also opened the switch panel to have a look inside, to see if there could be any visible cause of the electricity going to ground when using the emergency stop. Nothing to see there..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-19%2023-09-34_0025_resize.JPG)
I thought about painting the parts, but then I would have liked to reomve the switches too, to do the job properly. However the switches seemed to be mounted to the switch panel in such a way that I would definetely destroy some old plastic clips when trying to remove them. So that was out of the question. I am going to have to redo the machines entire wiring when I convert to 400V anyways..
Without the urge to put on paint, I simply bolted everything back together and applied a bit of sealant on the mating surfaces.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2000-15-57_0029_resize.JPG)
How's that for straightness? :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2000-16-06_0031_resize.JPG)
I also considered moving the entire switch panel to somewhere next to the quill handle. But after several trial fits and considerations, I decided it would be too much work, and there would be times where the panel would be har to reach. The thought of having to reach over the table, quite close to the cutter, to access the emergency stop was also making a few alarm bells ring..
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Nice save on that electrical box.
That short sounds like a wiring problem. Although I would assume that the "E"-stop would drop out a relay in the control box. Do you have a wiring diagram that came with the machine? Maybe we can figure it out.
Bernd
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Nice work Trion :thumbup:
Very enjoyable thread :beer: I get the impression your having fun as well :dremel:
CC
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Lookin Good Trion :dremel:
Great thread
Cheers Rob
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Thanks fellas :)
Yes, there is a wiring diagram in the first pages of this thread, although not so reader friendly. And I am pretty sure Bernd is right that there is a wiring problem, because the fuses only blow when pushing the e-stop while the machine is running. So it's taking current somewhere it shouldn't be, while when the machine isn't running there is no electricity to go that route..
Well, I said there might be a tool gloat this weekend..
I found out that a friend of mine had no less than three monstrous machining vises he had got from a shop upgrading to newer tools. When I got there, I really understood the meaning of monstrous. The biggest one was over 50cm long and a struggle to lift with two men! Besides, all of them were hydraulic! So we talked a bit, and he explained that he only needed one, to use as "regular" bench vise. So I could pick the one I wanted and have it for free :D :D
I took the smallest one, because the bigger ones would have made Y-direction travel absent on my, in perspective, quite tiny mill!!
Pictures, pictures.. I know ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-17-09_0020_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-34-14_0023_resize.JPG)
There are no names on it, only thing are these numbers stamped in the casting: 2262 994
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-34-34_0025_resize.JPG)
This vise already protrudes a bit into Y-direction travel because of it sticking over the table..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-34-55_0027_resize.JPG)
Width of the jaws are 160mm, not extreme but ok. One jaw is missing, so I'll need to come up with something there..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-35-27_0030_resize.JPG)
The vise can be opened up to 30cm, by moving the fixation bolt seen to the right :thumbup:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-41-22_0035_resize.JPG)
So what's the right thing to do, when you have got new stuff? That's right, pull it apart and try to understand how it works!
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-44-12_0037_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-44-18_0038_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-20%2022-46-25_0040_resize.JPG)
Yesterday I had all evening, and nothing else to play with, so I decided it would be a good idea to clean it up a bit
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-21%2000-04-52_0043_resize.JPG)
One thing led to another, all of a suddden the vise had been treated with an angle grinder and a wire wheel, then with a flapdisc, washed with ethanol, then some tougher stuff and finally masked for paint
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-21%2001-07-10_0046_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-21%2001-07-20_0048_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-21%2001-07-27_0049_resize.JPG)
The question was if I was going to paint it in durable gray epoxy primer or the cheaper sajo-green one component paint.. That led me to check out the test piece which had been standing in old coolant and oil for a few weeks now. A quick scratch test with a knife revealed that the paint was a bit softer where it had been left in coolant. But since it is a vise, and probably is going to get quite a few scratches, I decided to go for the cheap paint anyways.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-21%2001-09-00_0052_resize.JPG)
Some minutes later it looked like this :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-21%2001-36-57_0055_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-21%2001-37-06_0057_resize.JPG)
Today it's getting another layer of paint. Then I'm going to let it dry for a couple of days. After all, there are only a few degrees celsius inside the workshop. Cant wait to get it assembled though :D :D
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.....I took the smallest one, because the bigger ones would have made Y-direction travel absent on my, in perspective, quite tiny mill!! ........ This vise already protrudes a bit into Y-direction travel because of it sticking over the table......
Just a little bit of - literally - orthogonal thinking. Although its usual / traditional to mount the vice in lne with the Y axis, you could mount it in line with the X axis and the operating handle off to, say, the left hand of the table?
Dave
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Yes, I guess I could, but then there wouldn't be any room for a rotary table and maybe a smaller vise ::)
Actually, the biggest vise had the possibility to use the handle both horizontally and vertically, that would be even better suited when mounting paralell to X-axis. But like I said, I want to keep a bit of space around..
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Trion,
I'm trying to see if I can diagonse what your electrical problem could be.
Lets try to take this one step at a time.
Is the "emergency" button supposed to turn off the spindle motor or the whole machine?
I took your pictures of the prints and tried to make them larger in my photo program. Then I discovered I can't read Norwegin very well. Although I can make out some of the words. If you could take a higher resolution picture of the prints and e-mail them to me. My e-mail addy is in the members file. Maybe I can figure out were to start looking.
Bernd
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Wow, you don't have to go to so much trouble just for getting the emergency stop working! But thanks! :nrocks:
Actually, I had already planned to bother a friend of mine who's an electrician, and reads norwegian ::)
But since you ask, I would assume the emergency stop to kill everyting on the machine. The machine only has 2 buttons that can start it or parts of it. Either the start button or the fast feed button. When the emergency stop button is pressed and the machine isn't running, nothing on the machine works, but no fuses go. When the machine is running and you press the regular stop button you can hear a relay clicking and the machine stops. The start and stop button control both spindles, feed motor and coolant pump, depending on the settings on the cabinet door. And as you know, if the machine is running and you press the emergency stop, the ground fuse blows and the whole shop goes dark.
My very limited electrical knowledge tells me that there is something wrong with the wire going from the emergency stop to the relay. As this wire only leads current when the machine is running and the emergency stop is pressed.
On another note, I assembled the vise today :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-23%2020-26-51_0012_resize.JPG)
But as you can see the color is a bit off. And when you get up close, the finish isn't that great. There are a few running marks and scratches. But it does the job :)
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Even so, that's a very nice looking vice :thumbup:
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Looks good from here :beer:
CC
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Looks good from here :beer:
CC
Yes! :thumbup: It looks really good from the other end of the world! :bow:
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Trion,
I'm just courious as what could be causing that. I also never heard of a ground fuse. But then the electrical codes are different over there. Well when your friend finds out let me know what it was. All I can think of is that the wiring is somehow messed up from a previous owner.
BTW, nice looking vice. Now all you need to do is paint the machine to match. :D Just kidding. :ddb:
Bernd
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You have a point Bernd, I would have considered it quite a dangerous situation to have a fused ground.... if this blows and the machine becomes live :zap:
Trion, I think you may have your wires crossed :scratch:
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Trion,
I'm just courious as what could be causing that. I also never heard of a ground fuse. But then the electrical codes are different over there. Well when your friend finds out let me know what it was. All I can think of is that the wiring is somehow messed up from a previous owner.
....
The reference to ground "fuse" may be what we poor non-Nynorsk/Bokmål speakers would refer to as a "Ground Fault Interrupter" or "Earth Leakage Trip" / "Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker".
.... BTW, nice looking vice. Now all you need to do is paint the machine to match. :D Just kidding. :ddb: ....
No no no - what you have to do is get the vice working for a living so it acquires the same hard working (hard living?) patina as the rest of the machine! :whip: - actually, maybe that's why subconciously you chose the less durable paint :beer:
Dave
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When you say ground fuse, is it like a ground fault that when it senses an electrical current, it kills everything by kicking the circuit breaker in the plug in, disabling the entire circuit? It sounds like you describe the entire shop going dark, which would mean a fuse or breaker at the main is getting an overload.
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:scratch: I wonder if the main relay which fires up everything on the machine is supposed to be wired up like a no-volt switch, holding itself on until current to its coil is interrupted by pressing the push-to break emergency stop which should be in series with the coil, but someone has managed to wire it up so that the emergency stop is acting as a push-to-make, in parallel with the coil. Then, virtually all the current which was going through the coil would be short-circuited direct from live (hot) to neutral (cold), which would not only de-energise the coil and open up the relay contacts, but also blow the supply fuse.
With the machine disconnected from the supply, a continuity tester could be used to establish whether the switch was in push-to-make or push-to-break mode, and whether pushing the switch was establishing a connection to neutral (or to earth).
Andy
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I agree with Dave that the 'ground fuse' may be an earth leakage detector.
Now we do not know if that location has earthed neutral or not (we have earthed neutral in NZ) and it may be that some component is connected to phase and ground instead of phase and neutral but it is difficult to imagine why the fault only occurs at switch off.
It is a long guess but if the emergency stop switch is double pole it may be that someone thought it a good idea to ground the motor leads, or even the relay coil, during an emergency stop in which case the inductance of the motor or the relay coil may have enough back emf to trip an earth leakage breaker.
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The machine appears to be supplied from a 3Ph + Earth, two of the phases are picked off to supply T101 on photo 2 to give a 220v source.
This goes through the various switches to energise the contactor coils.
One side of the 220v secondary is connected to frame earth it seems.
On pic. 2 there is a 'PB 1' connected to the 220v tapping, in series with the overloads on the various contactors, which then enables 220v to go to the control switchgear and then to the various machine functions.
I cannot see, from this diag. where any ELCB, Trip, whatever, is connected. But then, I am not too good on Swedish or the somewhat non-standard symbols.
It would seem likely that PB1 is the EStop. Not certain though.
What is a 'BOMMOTOR' ?
'MATTNINGSMOTOR' ?
Tried to translate, got 'BAR MOTOR' ... handy for the legless ...
Which fuse(s) blow?
The input fuses appear to be 50A. If they're letting go, I shall maintain a discreet distance. :zap:
Dave BC
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The machine appears to be supplied from a 3Ph + Earth, two of the phases are picked off to supply T101 on photo 2 to give a 220v source.
This goes through the various switches to energise the contactor coils.
One side of the 220v secondary is connected to frame earth it seems.
Yes, I see that too but that is a transformer isolated DC circuit so its hard to imagine how that can cause an earth current. :scratch:
On pic. 2 there is a 'PB 1' connected to the 220v tapping, in series with the overloads on the various contactors, which then enables 220v to go to the control switchgear and then to the various machine functions.
I cannot see, from this diag. where any ELCB, Trip, whatever, is connected. But then, I am not too good on Swedish or the somewhat non-standard symbols.
As the whole shop goes dark I assume the ELCB is in the main shop fuse box?
John
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I must say, I'm amazed! :nrocks:
To clear up some misunderstandings, what I call a ground fuse is in the electrical box of the building, supposed to prevent people from dying when touching a live wire and something that can lead to ground. The ground fuse is activated by only a few milli ampere. DIMON is absolutely correct :clap:
The reference to ground "fuse" may be what we poor non-Nynorsk/Bokmål speakers would refer to as a "Ground Fault Interrupter" or "Earth Leakage Trip" / "Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker".
The zero phase of the three phase is not ground on 400v systems, but I'm not sure how the 220v is. Ofcourse, this system is 220v..
BOMMOTOR - boom motor, the motor mounted in the boom driving the vertical head
MATNINGSMOTOR - feed motor
You seem to have looked more into this, than what I have done myself. I'm sitting at school now, and the teacher is talking about convergent solutions of cfd analysis. I think I ought to pay a bit of attention, will chime in on the electrical issue later today. :smart:
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One side of the 220v secondary is connected to frame earth it seems.
I dont know about 3ph systems, but isnt it true that on single phase systems protected with ELCB, if you short the neutral to earth it will trip the ELCB?
Could that be happening with the mill's emergancy stop system?
Just a thought.
Tim
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Tim
Shouldn't really trip as earth and neutral are the same connection at the sub-station. Or even at you own consumer unit if you are on PME ( Protective Multiple Earth) as I am.
Will try to post a c-o-c.
Beware of ELCB and RCD. Not same. ELCB's are (IIRC) voltage operated whereas RCD's are current. Most in UK are RCD's .. Lot of stuff in earth faults and various means of knocking off the power under fault conditions.
Dave BC
c-o-c herewith ..
This should be read with some caution, it may NOT apply to every distribution system
(http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo31/Bluechip_mech/leccy002.jpg)
It'a a damn long time since I did any of this for real, but ...
The (IIRC) High Voltage distribution is 3-wire Delta ( AKA Mesh ) and goes into the local Sub Station transformer and gets stepped down in voltage and also connected Star ( AKA Wye ), as per LH diag. Which is where the Neutral and Earth appear.
RCD's
On the RH diag, we have a magnetic core, attached to which is some means of mechanically opening the breaker. Like a solenoid. So, assuming we have no fault, all the current goes from line thro' the top coil, load, lower coil, thence down the neutral return. The two coils are contra wound, and, as the currents are identical the magnetic pull generated by one coil is negated by the other. One is pushing the same amount as the other is pulling. Nothing happens. If we close the test switch, we get If (fault current) to ground. Both the load and fault current go thro the top coil, but only the load current thro lower coil. Not equal and opposite any more. Device will trip. Lights go out. Telly packs up. Women folk squawk piteously 'cos no Eastenders etc.
There are all sorts of ways of doing this, just one of many. Lots are 'transistor aided' or whatever.
Suggest you Google stuff like Star/Delta RCD PME etc.
That 220v on Trion's Mill should not trip any RCD if earthed. BUT, it may be the machine has been modified, with greater or lesser competence, at some time, and thus may not be to the cct. It' s not possible to tell, I think he needs an Electrician ON SITE ...
Remote theorizing is fun, but has it's limits ..
Dave BC
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Andy,
I think you might be right.
Bernd
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Andy,
I think you might be right.
Bernd
If I am, that'll be a first :ddb: :ddb:
Andy
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I must admit, I dont understand squat of the drawings and stuff posted. 3-phase is still just a word to me :hammer:
But I had a lot of spare time this weekend, so I brought the wiring diagram with me. Long story short, the only place where the emergency stop switch is shown in the diagram is as a holding switch PB1 on the control current diagram. It seems to have no other function than to hold the current for the rest of the switches, so if it is pressed nothing will work. Why this causes current to go to ground is rather confusing. Will just have to see what my electrician has to say to it..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-02%2017-20-12_0038_resize.JPG)
On another note, I have made a small investments during the recent days :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-02-27%2014-53-31_0006_resize.JPG)
Yup, it's a 2mm thick rubber foil which is going to be my combined y-z-axis way cover!
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This is a bit amazing to me. They are using 220volt control circuit. One would think that they would have used some smaller voltage. But anyway I ramble.
It looks like your PB1 should only have two wires on it. If there are more than I'd say there is a wiring problem. The parts labled OL1, OL2, etc. are the motor overloads. If the amparge is exceeded on any of these the machine goes into "emergency stop". I would find one of those OL's in the panel box. They should be able to be tripped manually. If they can try one. The machine should shut down. If it does and nothing else turns off, like you descibrd before then I'd say your PB1 is the sorurce of your problem.
One of the reasons I'm so interested in this is that I used to do a bit of trouble shooting on the machines in the place I worked at. Used to do it over the phone sometimes. So I want to see if I can trouble shoot a machine via the internet. Call it a challenge. :smart:
Bernd
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Is it possible that when PB1 is released, it's causing a spike in transformer T1, which is tripping the ELCB? Or, maybe PB1 is faulty, and is (briefly, perhaps) connecting live to earth as it disconnects, again tripping the ELCB. I presume that PB1 is earthed on its chassis.
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I must admit, I dont understand squat of the drawings and stuff posted. 3-phase is still just a word to me...
On another note, I have made a small investments during the recent days .....
Yup, it's a 2mm thick rubber foil which is going to be my combined y-z-axis way cover!
Until the electrical problem is solved, it might be a good idea to put the rubber mat on the floor and stand on it :lol:
Andy
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Here is something you could try...
Run the machine and stop it with the emergency stop button.
Then unplug the machine and test for continuity (i.e. resistance) between the earth pin of the plug and each of the other two lines.
There should be no circuit between earth and phase pin.
There should be no circuit between earth and neutral.
There should be no circuit either between phase and neutral when everything is turned off.
There MUST be a circuit between the earth pin and the exposed metal of the machine.
If it fails any of these tests it is unsafe and the attendance of an expert is required, in my opinion.
I suspect that whatever is happening it is just a very short spike on the earth lead which your earth leakage circuit breaker is sensitive to. The pulse is probably coming from the collapse of magnetic fields in motors or relay coils.
An easy solution may be to put some ferrite beads on the earth lead, you can buy these and you might have seen them moulded on to the cable to VDU displays etc.
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Is there a neutral, how are the two transformers fed?
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Ok, I wasn't sure if I was even going to write this. It's a bit embarassing to say the least..
I had the electrician look at the machine the other day, and he litterarely laid his magic hands on it and immediately found the problem
I had the switch panel hanging out of it's mount, to facilitate the measurement of the wires. Once the machine was powered up, all he did was to touch the panel, quickly pull his hand back and state that the error was found. At first I didn't quite understand how he could know that, so obviously I had to try it out myself too :zap:
Afterwards, we measured 230V between the surface of the panel and ground..
Then we disconnected the wires from the emergency stop switch and simply joined them together. Voila, the current was gone. So all the time, it was just a bad switch. :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-10%2017-33-05_0004_resize.JPG)
I'm sorry to have let you down on your error seeking challenge :poke:
I have spent the rest of my spare time putting the engine of my Nissan back together. Will post a picture when it's finished.
Oh, I've also bought a bit of new stuff. Hydraulic oil for both knee and transmissions and 5 litres of unmixed coolant :ddb:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-10%2017-32-45_0001_resize.JPG)
Question:
- Where is a good place online to buy proper electrical switches?
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Glad to hear you got that sorted, in more ways then one :thumbup:
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Hey Trion,
Glad it was a simple fix. No dissapointment here. Sometimes problems are just that simple. We always seem to lookd for more complicated answers. :clap:
Bernd
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So live chassis eh? Doh :bugeye:
At one stage used to repair teletypewriters. Always used to plug em into the bench switch on and then turn on the circuit breaker from a safe distance. If it tripped u know u gotta problem in the power supply.
It wasnt uncommon to find one that had a live chassis.
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Question:
- Where is a good place online to buy proper electrical switches?
try rswww.com they might have a branch where you are
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Question:
- Where is a good place online to buy proper electrical switches?
try rswww.com they might have a branch where you are
RS have a presence in Norway: http://no.rs-online.com/web/
I don't know about Norway, but they have a number of branches in the UK - there's one about 6 miles/10km from me, where I call in occasioally to buy stuff over the counter. They aren't cheap, but as far as I can tell from my limited experience, it's good quality stuff from reputable manufacturers.
They started life as an outfit called Radio Spares, but don't like to be reminded of that.
Andy
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Hello. Nice milling machine.
RS in Norway don't realy like to talk to private custumers with small orders. They tend to be slow moving and not have any custumer service.
You could try Elfa: http://www.elfa.se/no/ (http://www.elfa.se/no/) They also have an outlet in Oslo.
Where in Norway are you located?
Br.
Thomas.
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An other ting to note:
Norway have an IT grounding network instead of the TN network used elswhere. So as long as you don't have 400V then the machine seems correct.
BR
Thomas.
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Hi Folks
Maybe this outfit have a presence in Norway ?
Some pics. to look at anyway ... :D
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/results.jsp?N=500006+1000192&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=emergency+stop&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&isGoback=false&isRedirect=false
Dave BC
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Thanks for the replies guys :wave:
I have had quite a bit of bad experience buying from larger norwegian companies, and have found buying online to be both cheaper and faster, even if I buy the parts in the USA. The farnell site looks good, after a bit of research of what I need, I should be ready to order a few bits. I might even add a emergency stop to the lathe while I'm at it! :dremel:
LA3PNA: I live just south of Stavanger. You know, where we are supposed to have 2-3 days of snow each year, not 2-3 friggin months :bang:
On another note, I said I'd post a picture when the Nissan is running, and guess what happened yesterday? :ddb: :ddb:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/2010-03-13%2014-37-54_0006_resize.JPG)
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Trion
Does this make better sense?
http://no.farnell.com/
Appears they do Nowegian anyway ..
Now why didn't I see this first time ? :scratch: Should have got the dog to do it ... more reliable.
Dave BC
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Thanks, I'll look into that when the founds are back to normal again.
Speaking of founds, I figured it was about time to make some poor mans T-slot studs. I found a suiting piece of steel from the shelf, and put it in the saw
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2021-05-10_0001_resize.JPG)
Cut of two even pieces of flat steel, aswell as to pieces of M14 threaded bar
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2021-10-23_0004_resize.JPG)
Drilled holes into the plates
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2021-28-26_0006_resize.JPG)
And dug out my tig welder, to try welding some steel :dremel:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2021-45-02_0008_resize.JPG)
And on the other side
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2021-58-37_0013_resize.JPG)
After a bit of snow-hardening ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2022-00-00_0014_resize.JPG)
And ready for use
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2022-02-15_0017_resize.JPG)
So now the vise is finally fastened to the table :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2022-11-52_0019_resize.JPG)
But only by two bolts, as none of the other fixation points fit the slots. I also had to have the vise hanging over the table like that, to be able to clamp something in it and not have the table wound out all the way on the Y-axis.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-16%2022-12-33_0020_resize.JPG)
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.....So now the vise is finally fastened to the table ......
But only by two bolts, as none of the other fixation points fit the slots. I also had to have the vise hanging over the table like that, to be able to clamp something in it and not have the table wound out all the way on the Y-axis....
IF you want the vice more central in Y, you may find you can slide the head back a little on its ram? (and equally out again for wider workpieces) - at least I think that's a slide I can see hiding under the bride's veil ::)
Dave
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That's a big vice :)
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Hi,
I have been following this thread from the beginning, keep up the good work.
With the vise you could put some hold downs at the head of the vice, in the first T slot closest to the column, it would help with the weight of the overhang on the other end.
Davo
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Thanks guys, I'll look into clamping the head of the vise when I get myself a clamping kit. I'm lacking tooling and funds at the moment.
DMION: I had forgotten all about the ram adjustment :doh:
But yesterday I gave it a go
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-17%2021-53-24_0002_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-17%2021-54-09_0005_resize.JPG)
Then I figured I'd loosen the vise and position it a bit further onto the table, but when looseining one of my homemade t-studs it broke off. Looking at the broken zone, I can see see something looking like a big grain growth in the HAZ of the weld. Must have weakened the bolt quite a lot, but I'm still amazed that it broke. Could it be hydrogen enrichment from the snow hardening? ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-17%2021-57-13_0008_resize.JPG)
Well, here the vise is temporarily fixed and the head adjusted to a usable position
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-03-17%2022-03-46_0011_resize.JPG)
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On another note, I said I'd post a picture when the Nissan is running, and guess what happened yesterday? :ddb: :ddb:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/2010-03-13%2014-37-54_0006_resize.JPG)
Hi Trion,
I've not been here for a while and only just found your thread.... That's a nice huge mill and a vice to compliment it!!! :jaw:
If you have any endmills/slot drills I'd make a few new T nuts first job :thumbup: scary having ones that snap :bugeye:
But I also just had to say.... Nice motor :headbang: SX? I'm hoping there's a filter to protect that huge shiny snail somewhere too? :)
Ralph.
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Thanks! Yeah, s14 as you probably have noticed. I have a 4" intake pipe and HKS mushroom filter, but for the first startup after a rebuild, I like to double check that things are working. After snapping 2 rockers, bashing two hks cams and bending 4 valves I have learned not to trust the SR... :hammer:
There is a 4000 picture build thread about the car on the members area of the norwegian Silvia forum. Good for killing a few hours, if you speak norwegian (and have paid the membership fee) :lol:
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It's been a while since I have posted here, haven't done much either. Most of my time is being spent driving the Nissan, and reading for my exams.
But I have managed to sneak in a few hours, where I have changed the oil of the vertical spindle gearbox :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-03%2017-40-51_0012_resize.JPG)
The spindle is running nice and smooth, and all gears work fine. With one exception at about 800rpm, which is making a slight grinding noise :scratch:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-03%2018-11-34_0016_resize.JPG)
Here's the table feed gearbox being drained, and new hydraulic oil is soon to be poured into it :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-06%2020-58-45_0064_resize.JPG)
That's about all there is to report. I have bought quite a few new Mitutoyo measuring tools, and finally got around to order a ER32 collet set for the mill. Beware, there might be a bit of gloating in the next post ::)
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I sai'd there was going to be gloating :D
You are looking at a MT2 live center with exchangable tips, MT2 collet chuck for the tailstock, MT3 collet chuck for the spindle, 25mm shank collet chuck for future QCTP and ofcourse ISO40 collet chuck for the mill. I also bought a few spanners and ofcourse a complete set of ER32 collets :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2017-04-52_0001_resize.JPG)
I first tested the poor mans collet chuck on a valve I had tried to turn in the 3-jaw, with loads of scatter.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2017-26-38_0004_resize.JPG)
It turned out like this, valve-grinder ground valve in front and turned valve in the rear
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2017-45-59_0013_resize.JPG)
Here's the tailstock collet chuck for the times i need to chuck a reamer or a large drill :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2017-27-11_0007_resize.JPG)
I only have a drawbar for the vertical spindle for now, so I tried the collet chuck there
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2017-54-15_0016_resize.JPG)
But being a newb, I got into truble right away. I put the collet in the chuck and put the nut on, but when tightening it, it stopped far from the edge. So I took it apart and noticed some slight damage to my 10mm collet :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2017-54-35_0017_resize.JPG)
So I figured, something must have been wrong. When I looked into the collet nut, I found the bugger. As you can see, there is an edge which is very out of round
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2017-55-00_0020_resize.JPG)
So I put it on the lathe so measure the runout of this edge, but it was more than the 0,8mm of travel my new Mitutoyo DTI (gloat gloat) had to offer..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2018-02-29_0021_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2018-02-52_0024_resize.JPG)
At first I was thinking, thats why they were so damned cheap. Should have spent the money on the real deal instead :bang:
But then I started looking at the other collet nuts, and strangely they had all the same runout. And then I realized it. One is supposed to put the collet into the nut by slightly pressing it in by hand, and the put the nut on the chuck.. :bang: :bang:
After that, I was ready to make the first swarf :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2019-01-30_0026_resize.JPG)
Yup, thats some milled aluminum. I took about 0,5mm cuts back and forth, climb milling definetely gave the best result
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2019-01-44_0028_resize.JPG)
Some of you might remember that my homemade t-slot studs broke a while ago. Well, here's yesterdays setup. The milling cutter is rotating away from the car, I'm not crazy :lol:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-20%2019-05-20_0031_resize.JPG)
On another note, i ran the vertical spindle again, and tried to chang the rotational direction. In what seems to be the right direction for drilling and such, there is a lot of noise coming from both the head and the gearbox. The noise increases with rpm and sounds like something hammering in there. I might be looking at a head+transmission overhaul this summer :dremel:
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Today, I tried filming the head noise. The audio is pretty bad, but the noise of the horizontal spindle is like a light whine, as from an electro motor, in comparison to this hammering/crunching sound. :poke:
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Trion
Does sound a bit gruesome .. although it would be about normal for a Chinese Mill :lol: :lol:
Try turning the spindle by hand, if it's rough, maybe just a shot bearing .. not good if it's gear driven though ..
Wonder what others think ...
Dave BC
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Trion
Does sound a bit gruesome .. although it would be about normal for a Chinese Mill :lol: :lol:
Dave BC
I know nothing about the Sajo, obviously, but I do have a chinese mill and yes it is a noisy geared head machine but...... nothing like that!
That does not sound good.
Im thinking about dismantling mine as its been said that a decent bearing set can radically reduce the noise... I would definately be looking inside yours before something nasty happens..... looks like too nice a machine to waste.... :wave:
Rob T
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Todays shop time revealed that things are worse than I initially thought.
I spent some time listening to the various places on the machine, to locate the hammering sounds. The gearbox makes a loud hammering noise in the higher gears, and the upper part of the quill head does the same. I cannot feel any bearing wear, so I'm afraid it's the gears.
But I have two heads for the mill, so I figured it might be worth a shot to try the other head on. So off came the heavy bastard..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-27%2019-25-15_0002_resize.JPG)
While changing heads, I started the vertical motor without any load. All of a sudden, the gearbox was quiet and only made a light whine as I would think was normal.
But when I put the angled head on, the hammering sound from the gearbox was back. But the head didn't hammer, instead it made a deep rumbling sound.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-27%2019-25-36_0004_resize.JPG)
Then I noticed the play in the spindle....
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-27%2019-27-30_0006_resize.JPG)
Yup, thats about 0,72mm (0,03") of radial play :jaw:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-05-27%2019-27-42_0008_resize.JPG)
Well, leesson learned (for the hundreth time), you get what you pay for.. :bang:
Both vertical heads and the vertical gearbox need an overhaul. Bearings will be ok, but replacing gears might be a costly story! On the other hand the horizontal spindle and transmissions seem fine. But considering how worn the vertical spindle is, I'm beginning to wonder how drastic the wear on the ways might be. If the table doesn't move straight, even light precision work is out the window and i might aswell use an angle grinder instead... How do I measure the table wear?
I seem to have to make a decision wether to sell the machine as it is, or to start an expensive and time consuming overhaul. Any opinions? :scratch:
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That .030" might not be that bad. It depends on what radius your checking it. I'm sure if you check it on a 12" distance from center your indicator reading would be much more.
Have you tested the machine under a cutting load? Like perhaps milling a part to see how the noise is then. Might sound completley different under a load.
I personally would say it's the bearings and not the gears.
Bernd
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Before I made any decisions regarding the fate of the machine Id find out exactly what, if anything, is wrong with it. It may well be 'normal' for the beast. Mine annoys the hell outta me but I know that many of its type do it and I also know that quality bearings will make it much quieter..one day...
Do you know of any repair or service company that has experience with this brand? Maybe they would be willing to talk to you about whats good and whats not. Talks to sales companies they may be able to point you in the direction of others who can help. Is it easy to have a look inside the heads?
Only once you know what the cost is going to be can you determine if cutting your losses is acceptable and move to another machine as opposed to repair this one.
Good luuck... that looks like a nice machine... I hope its got life left in it yet... :thumbup:
Rob t
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You say that you cant feel any bearing wear so you are afraid its on the gears.... in my experience, for a bearing to be noisey it doesnt need to exhibit wear or free play. Its often impossible to check a bearing in situ.... but they can usually be felt as bad things when in the hand... dont discount a simple (relatively) cheap fix yet... :D
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Trion
After thinking about this for a bit. :doh:
I have a feeling that it is in the bearings where most of the noise and excess play is coming from. Worn gears might give you some backlash but not side to side. The rumbling that you hear may well be some square balls in the bearing from a bearing breaking down. I would be tempted to put an end mill in and make it do some hard work for a few minutes while listening to it and watching how it acts before I started tearing it apart. Weather its bearings or gears I don't think a minutes hard work is going to make any difference but it may help you pin point the problem. I hope that this is of some help. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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dsquire: I've been thinking a bit about it too. If only thetable is moving straight in all directions, then I can replace the bearings in both gearbox and head and use the machine. The gears might still make some noise, but it won't affect the accuracy of the milling, right!? Considering that the machine is going to be used rarely and only under hobby-load, I believe the gears will last many years to come. By the time they let go, I might even have a dividing head and a module cutter laying around ::) Or who knows, maybe they still sell spare parts for this machine?
Selling the machine as it is, I'm either not going to get any money for it, or I would have to fool some poor guy. But I like my wallet thick and my concience being good, so it seems my only option is rebuilding :dremel:
Bernd: The play in the bearings of the angled head is very noticeable. At first I noticed it with my hand, and guessed it was about 2mm. I was amazed to find it was only 0,7mm.
Artie: That is what I'm thinking too. Find out all the bad things and make a decision. There was a repair/spare part company called sajoservice, but they seem to be out of business. :doh:
Having a look inside the heads is going to be a bit of work, but I'm sure it's going to be worth it. Once open, I'm going to replace all the bearings I can find in there ::)
Next up: Making a new pair of t-slot studs and try a bit of milling. Maybe also try measuring the table wear.
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I have not yet purchased any more milling tooling, so i have not been able to test the mill fully. Althoug i redrilled a pair of brake discs a couple of weeks ago, using the quill head. I only ran at about 300rpm so everything was running nice and quiet, and the drilling was no problem.
Therefore I have decided that the quill head is in best shape and may stay on the machine until the other head is rebuilt.
Here's a picture of the head already slightly disassembled
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2017-59-57_1015_resize.JPG)
In order to get the spindle out of the head, first the bearing tightening screw has to be removed
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-00-23_1019_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-00-43_1022_resize.JPG)
Then the spindle bearing block may be turned out of the housing
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-00-30_1020_resize.JPG)
But then a problem reveals itself. The gear which drives the spindle is a 45degree helical gear that sits on the shaft with a press fit and uses a key to secure rotation. This gear is too big to exit the housing still mounted on the shaft, and therefore the shaft has to be pressed of the gear and the gear is then to be removed out through the hole which the picture is taken through. Sort of ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-00-12_1017_resize.JPG)
The shaft may be removed as far as this, but then the gear is stopping it
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2019-25-41_1047_resize.JPG)
Big gear vs. small hole :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2019-25-54_1048_resize.JPG)
I tried pushing it out like this, but the "clamp" was just slipping on the bolts I mounted. Will have to improve this fixture to try to remove it again. I really hope the gear doesn't damage the inside of the housing when being pressed off!
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2020-07-49_1050_resize.JPG)
After many attemps to remove the gear, i went on to disassemble the the other part of the head
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-00-51_1025_resize.JPG)
This part of the head uses angular contact ball bearings on each shaft and an adjustment nut to tighten them. The bearings felt quite good, but I figured I should replace them while being at it. It is hard to feel if a bearing is worn without having it in your hand anyways. Here's the housing for the outgoing shaft.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-05-36_1027_resize.JPG)
Housing and ingoing shaft
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-35-05_1031_resize.JPG)
Disassembled
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2018-52-14_1037_resize.JPG)
But the inner ring of one bearing kept to the shaft, so I had to think out of the box to get it off
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2019-00-48_1039_resize.JPG)
Voila :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-07-22%2019-11-25_1045_resize.JPG)
Now off to the garage to try removing the bad gear again :dremel:
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Been a bit lazy about taking pictures as progress goes along, but here goes.
I got the gear of the shaft, after having made these super fancy brackets ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2019-39-24_0002_resize.JPG)
Rough illustration of the assembly
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2019-39-34_0004_resize.JPG)
After having disassembled the whole lot, I wrote up all the bearing numbers and went shopping
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2020-17-28_0007_resize.JPG)
The spindle main bearing is a tapered roller bearing.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2020-17-39_0009_resize.JPG)
Though the foil is in on this picture, there is actually a notable height difference between the new and the old bearing..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2020-18-06_0010_resize.JPG)
Before starting the assembly I figured I should make a tightening tool for the spindle, as previous tightening attempts seem to have set its marks
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2020-22-53_0011_resize.JPG)
Some M6 screws and flat iron became this
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2020-49-06_0013_resize.JPG)
A bit of grinding and welding later, the finished tool has emerged :dremel:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2021-14-00_0019_resize.JPG)
Then I began with the assembly. I started off with the ingoing shaft of the 90 degree transmission. All parts cleaned and lined up for assembly :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2012-28-27_0041_resize.JPG)
I made a relief cut in the old inner ring of the bearing and used this to punch the new bearing in place.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2012-39-56_0043_resize.JPG)
Afterwards I could pull the cut bearing ring of by simple hand force
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2012-48-48_0046_resize.JPG)
I also hit in a new bearing in the housing. These bearings are angular contact ball bearings, and are positioned such that by tightening the screw on the end of the shaft, bearing play is eliminated
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2012-51-43_0047_resize.JPG)
Then i soaked the bearings in grease
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2012-56-57_0056_resize.JPG)
Before I assembled the whole lot
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-05-53_0060_resize.JPG)
Then I fitted the washer and the key
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-04-04_0059_resize.JPG)
And fitted the gear, with some more grease being applied to the new bearings
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-15-44_0062_resize.JPG)
Next up was the outgoing shaft of the 90 degree gearbox
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-35-01_0065_resize.JPG)
Bearings mounted in the same manner
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-49-32_0067_resize.JPG)
I chose to preheat the gear to ease the installation. Heated it to a surface temperature of about 70 degrees celsius
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-53-57_0068_resize.JPG)
It slid much nicer onto the shaft
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-59-22_0070_resize.JPG)
But the retaining nut had some ugly marks on it
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2013-54-03_0069_resize.JPG)
So I chucked it in the lathe to skim of the marks
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2014-05-59_0071_resize.JPG)
I didn't bother about the marks that didn't protrude out of the surface, as I wanted to keep as much of the threads as possible
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2014-10-33_0073_resize.JPG)
After having deburred the edges, I mounted the nut and locking ring and tightened
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2014-15-15_0074_resize.JPG)
Finally the main spindle assembly. As you can see the main bearing is a big tapered roller bearing. It is tightened towards a flat ball bearing, while sideways movement also is supported by the top bearing which is a flat roller bearing without any locating edges to only support the sideways motion of the shaft.
What concerns me about this setup is the location of the gear (previously known as the bad gear). The axial movement of the gear is only limited by it's counterpart. So when assembling the unit, the shaft and gear coming in from the side has to be mounted, then this gear has to be pressed onto the main shaft until it contacts the gear coming in from the side. It will get clearer when I assemble the unit again.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2014-33-39_0076_resize.JPG)
To give you an idea, the total height of the gear and the bearing is 51,98mm. If the gear is pressed on until it reaches the edge on the shaft, the top of the bearing will be below the lowest threads, making the adjustment nut useless.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2015-12-01_0080_resize.JPG)
Judging by the marks, this is about the way it was mounted before I disassembled the head. Like I said, the only thing limiting the gear from traveling further down is the othe gear coming in from the side. To add to this, the gear sitting on the main shaft is fitted with such a press fit that the only way to move it along the shaft is by using a hammer! Again making the tightening nut useless :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2015-12-15_0081_resize.JPG)
I started mounting the main bearing, but ran out of grease so stopped the assembly here
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2014-49-36_0077_resize.JPG)
In the meanwhile, i started stripping the heads for paint
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2021-30-47_0021_resize.JPG)
The old badge was removed and is probably not going to be refitted again
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-06%2021-34-46_0022_resize.JPG)
I also started sanding down the housing, but the paint is thick and requires a lot of sanding to become even. The dust also smelled quite toxic, so I will need a good mask before I make further progress.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-08%2020-28-01_0089_resize.JPG)
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Trion
Thanks for the update on the repair. You certainly should have a very fine mill when you are finished with the repair and cleanup that you have undertaken. It seems like a lot of work now but it will be worth it in the future. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Trion...
Wow. What can I say, but this is a very good post to read. Lots of pictures! Ingenious use of shop made tools! Did I say lots of pictures? Clear ones at that. I am sure you will get the Sajo up and running again. Probably even better than it has in a long time!
Eric
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I notice that you are using grease in the bearings during assembly. Is this mentioned in the manual? There is an external nipple for periodic lubrication. What are you supposed to pump in there? What happens to it when it gets inside the head? I'm not saying you are wrong, but it may be that the bearings should be _oiled_ not greased.
With respect to the mitre gears, one or the other needs to be movable to set the backlash and the depth of mesh. You might have to do a trial assembly without the mitre gear and set the bearings. Measure from the underside of the bearing to the shoulder (or the top of the shaft). Disassemble and fit the mitre gear with a spacer up to the preload nut. Set the position of the gear (using cigarette paper or something between the teeth as a spacer). You might have to make a very temporary fixture to keep the top of the spindle central, or do it all with the head inverted so it hangs from what is normally the bottom bearing. Measure its position relative to the top of the shaft.
Make sure there is no clash between top of gear and bottom of bearing, remembering that you might need to readjust the bearings after running in. If there is, you might have to grind a little off the top of the gear. Much better if there is a gap that can be shimmed as it's easy to remove a shim.
In operation, the forces will tend to push the gear nearer the bearing (loosen the mesh), hence I don't think it would harm if you lapped out the gear so that it is a tight but sliding fit on the shaft (have you checked that the gear itself WITHOUT THE KEY is too tight on the shaft as it is possible that it is binding on the key?).
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Hi,
I have been watching this thread from the beginning, and for someone new to milling machines you sure have taken to it like a fish to water.
Good onya for getting in and fixing it up, it will be a dream to use with all it's rigidness when you have finished.
Dave
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Thanks for the kind words guys :)
To answer some of the more technical questions:
- The bearings and the internals of the entire gearbox are only lubricated by grease. Recommended lubrication on the grease nipples are once a day in full time production, that's why I figured it might be a good idea to lube them up at once. The main bearing seems to come short on the daily lubrication, therefore I am extra carefull to get this one greased up before assembly.
- I have checked, the gear still needs to be hammered to slide on the shaft, even though the key is not fitted, so the internal diameter of the gear is a bit too small.
- I believe I have not explained the assembly of the head thurhoughly enough, will have to take more pictures as they say more than wat I am ever going to be able to explain. Briefly, the main bearing is tightened against a flat ball bearing. Both bearings sit in the lower part of the head, and the main bearing is tightened by turning the big threaded ring sitting beneath it. The flat ball bearing has one side facing the main bearing, the other side faces the lower part of the housing. The main bearing may therefore be tightened without the upper (regular roller bearing) ever being mounted, as the entire tightening is done in the lower part of the housing. The top bearing is a roller bearing as said, but it has no lip to take axial forces. In other words, The inner ring and the rollers may be pushed out of the outer ring only by the force applied by one finger. I believe this is made that way to allow for movement, when tightening the gear adjustment screw.
- I like the idea about lapping the inside of the gear to make it a tight sliding fit. This would ease assembly, disassembly and tightening. But then I would have to learn how to lap first ::) Input is much appreciated! :nrocks:
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Made some more slow but steady progress :)
Sanded down the housings and started masking them
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-13%2019-41-07_0017_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-13%2019-41-13_0019_resize.JPG)
Here's the main spindle assembly, hopefully my explainations about how it is assembled makes more sense now ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-13%2019-41-45_0021_resize.JPG)
The flat ball bearing is located where the grease comes out. The ring with a bigger OD above it is laying against the inside of the spindle housing
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-13%2019-42-00_0024_resize.JPG)
Somewhere in here :poke:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-13%2019-43-17_0025_resize.JPG)
Both housings and a cover sanded down, washed and ready for paint. Yup that's an original Porsche 944 desktop paper I'm using as bench protection, old rubbish.. If it only were nissan ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-19%2018-19-17_0112_resize.JPG)
Here the housings have all gotten their first coat of paint :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-19%2018-46-47_0115_resize.JPG)
Then I turned my attention to the gear which had a very tight press fit on the main shaft. Since I know little about lapping and how to get about increasing the internal diameter of the gear, I decided to reduce the diameter of the shaft instead. I though about turning it, but when I chucked it up in the lathe I got minimum 4/100mm of runout on the surface to be turned. This was very far away from the chuck, much closer to the tailstock, and I don't know how to adjust runout when something is aligned on the live centre. Considering that I only wanted to remove about 1-2 hundreds, I started looking for a better(?) solution
I decided to chuck the shaft in the lathe, and to sand down the surface in question, but first those new bearings needed to be protected from dust and such..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-19%2018-46-54_0116_resize.JPG)
I used 120grit paper and WD-40
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-19%2018-53-55_0119_resize.JPG)
After many attempts I finally reached a tight sliding fit on both the bearing and the gear (with the key also fitted)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-19%2019-29-23_0121_resize.JPG)
Now a few coats of paint remain, then it's off to the assembly line :D
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You sure go to some lengths with the rebuild. It will be (and look) better than new when you´ve put it together again. It´s a nice mill, although in my shop, it would fill the entire floorspace, and would have to be operated from out of doors :)
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Thanks! :)
I see what you mean, when I'm buying/building myself a house, there is no way around having a proper size garage! ::)
I was just out and applied the third coat of paint just now. I thought I'd get a better surface using a roller brush, but instead I ended up with loads of small hairs in the paint :bang: If it looks too bad, I'm going to sand it down and apply another coat with the trusty old brush. After all, painting this is not something I plan on doing again the next 20 years..
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Beware, many pictures to follow :borg:
Here are the housings after three coats of paint
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2015-07-23_0099_resize.JPG)
I used a fluffy roller brush on the last coat, and unfortunately it lost many of it's hairs to the paint :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2015-07-30_0101_resize.JPG)
But, I was anxious to get it assembled, so I removed the paint masking
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2015-24-24_0104_resize.JPG)
Cleaned all the parts and lined them up
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2015-38-18_0106_resize.JPG)
Outgoing side of angular housing assembled. What worries me is that the bearings of this shaft have no means of additional lubrication as the machine is being used, while the other two shafts have grease nipples that lead grease in to the middle between the bearings :scratch:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2015-50-51_0109_resize.JPG)
Then I put the housing on wooden blocks and assembled the ingoing shaft as well
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-02-07_0110_resize.JPG)
Next up was the main spindle assembly. I had gotten hold of some more grease and lubed up the bearings before assembly
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-09-19_0115_resize.JPG)
Then I laid in the gear, before I put the shaft in, slid the gear onto the shaft and was able to start tightening the spindle bearing nut
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-11-57_0117_resize.JPG)
Here you see the gear lurking inside its housing :borg:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-12-19_0119_resize.JPG)
Here's a view from the top, without the top bearing in place
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-15-31_0123_resize.JPG)
Before continuing with the assembly of the main spindle, I had to put the two housings together
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-34-53_0126_resize.JPG)
Then I found the top bearing and cleaned of the hard oil with some wd40. I hope this picture explains what I mean about roller bearing without a locating edge.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-37-06_0129_resize.JPG)
I used the cut inner ring of the old bearing to carefully knock the new bearing in place, after having knocked the outer ring in first.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-46-06_0131_resize.JPG)
Quick trial fit of the assembled head :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2016-59-49_0133_resize.JPG)
Then it was time to get the quill head of
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2017-00-07_0136_resize.JPG)
A bit of fiddeling later, the new head was finally on
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2017-32-36_0138_resize.JPG)
I managed to damage the paint a bit during the mounting as it is just at the limit of what I can lift by myself. :hammer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2017-32-49_0141_resize.JPG)
Before doing anything more, I let the spindle run at 110rpm for a minute, then I tightened the top and bottom bearing nuts.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-20-05_0164_resize.JPG)
Out of interrest, I got the dial indicator out, to measure the runout of the spindle with the ER32 collet chuck mounted
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2017-57-38_0145_resize.JPG)
On one full revolution I only had 0,01mm of runout, and that might also be from the outer surface of the chuck :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2017-57-44_0146_resize.JPG)
I dug out the little MIG welder and tacked the previously broken T-slot bolts together again
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-33-21_0172_resize.JPG)
Put them under the vise and dialed in to within 0,02mm. (The surface I measured on was not perfectly flat so it was difficult to get an accurate reading)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-44-34_0178_resize.JPG)
Then I figured I had to set the tram on the mill, so a tramming tool was needed. I found some random steel rod and put it in the lathe
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-20-28_0168_resize.JPG)
After a bit of turning I had a shaft with a <10mm shank
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-32-13_0171_resize.JPG)
I planned on cutting of another section of the same shaft and mill it, but I got too carried away, so I just put the newly turned part in the vise ::) I guess I'm not getting any awards for proper milling setup either :lol:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-47-29_0179_resize.JPG)
Just out of curiousity, I tried milling a flat on top of the bar, to aid in seeing how straight it was mounted and to get an idea of how the tram was
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-54-19_0182_resize.JPG)
After having knocked the bar to a semi horizontal position (lacking parallells), I chucked up the centre drill in the collet chuck (lacking drill chuck) and drilled a hole for the dial indicator location.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2020-57-26_0184_resize.JPG)
Then I drilled the hole with a 7,5mm drill, before I stepped up to a 8mm drill to get close to the final size
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2021-05-19_0186_resize.JPG)
Then I flipped it over, and again by eyesight measured that the new hole would be somewhat perpendicular to the previous one.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2021-10-28_0189_resize.JPG)
After having centre drilled the hole, I drilled it to 4,5mm to allow for good space around a M4 screw. I also made a relief cut with the hack saw, but it was so tilted I don't dare to show it here ::)
Since I had drilled the original bar, I had to turn up another one. I grinded it a bit on the end, making the parts ready for welding
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2021-32-49_0190_resize.JPG)
The MIG welder was used again, and here's the result
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2021-35-38_0192_resize.JPG)
I also welded a M4 nut to the back of the tool, as this was much easier than trying to tap the poor thing
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2021-44-25_0194_resize.JPG)
And woila, the tramming tool was ready for use :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2021-48-20_0197_resize.JPG)
It was a bit of a pain to tram the head as the tramming tool was offset from the centre of the boom and gravity only wanting the head to rotate in one direction.. But after some swearing, I managed to get it pretty close to straight. From what I could red of my dial indicator I was about 0,01mm of when I settled with it. But my table has a very rough surface so it was hard to measure accurately.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2021-48-27_0199_resize.JPG)
Now that everything seemed fine, I lobbed up a piece of odd shaped aluminium in the vise and felt ready for milling :D
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2022-23-06_0202_resize.JPG)
My first chips (with the vertical head) :)
But I must admit, I'm a lazy bastard. I only turn the handwheels for positioning of the tool, then the auto feed does the rest of the job :coffee:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2022-28-22_0205_resize.JPG)
I cut the surface back and forth with no thought about climb milling or other stuff, just to see how the surface would look
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2022-32-54_0208_resize.JPG)
It's a rough one. The depth of cut was definetely the largest to the right, where the marks also are the largest. There is a noticeable ridge between the paths where the tool has traveled. Not quite sure what the cause of this is
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2022-34-27_0211_resize.JPG)
Previously I had tried to measure the table wear by putting the dial indicator on like this and then pushing/pulling at the end of the table (as to rotate it arond the vertical axis), and I got 0,48mm of indicator movement. I also tried putting the indicator on top of the table, lifting/leaning on the end of the table. The indicator traveled 0,50mm, accompanied by a squishing sound as from an oil film being broken :bugeye:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2018-32-11_0156_resize.JPG)
When doing this test, I had not locked the Y- and Z-axis (not that the Z-axis lock is working anymore anyways) so the measured movement probably comes a bit from each axis.
I thought about adjusting the table gibs, so I cranked (not really, I used the rapid power feed ::) ) the table to each end to look at the adjustment screws.
On the small end of the adjusment gib, the screw is unscrewed until it stands against the lubrication pump housing.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2018-17-38_0151_resize.JPG)
On the big end, is is adjusted as far in as possible. My only option seems to be shimming..
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2018-28-54_0154_resize.JPG)
I thought it was time to try making some T-slot nuts, but only found a stainless plate in the suiting dimension. So I tried milling the top of it, before I called it a day.
I need to think out a way to make those nuts without having neither parallells nor a clamping kit :scratch:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-08-23%2022-44-53_0212_resize.JPG)
Todays questions:
- Where can I buy a 0,20mm shim that is 400mm long?
- What can cause the ridge on the milled aluminium part?
- How can I make my mill table flat and shiny?
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Nice progress since you recieved the mill back in January.
As far as your milling I can only think that something moved. Perhaps the piece of aluminum moved on you.
For the small amount you took off I don't think the weight of the mill table would have caused those steps. Hopefuly there will be a few more memebers giving their advice.
The rebuild with paint job looks good. :thumbup: You should have a "like new" mill when done. :beer:
Bernd
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Thanks Bernd :)
After having milled a bit, i believe some of the irregularities come from that the tram is not perfect, and I milled each step with about 90% of the cutter width, making the ridge extra high. When I now progress about 50% of the cutter width for each pass, I get a much smoother finish.
To answer the two other questions I had:
- 0,20mm (and other thicknesses) and 400mm long shim stock can be had at tool stores. They actually sell feeler gauges on a 3m roll for next to nothing. When I'm done with the current milling project, I'm going to measure the gap at the gib and buy a suiting roll.
- To make the mill table flat and shiny, would require fly cutting I believe. But this is not to be done before I have shimmed all gibs to a nice snug fit, and if the ways are overly worn, I'm going to have to consider disassembling the table and having them scraped. I know nothing about scraping, so any advice is well appreciated.
Now over to my new project for the mill. It is actually a project for the lathe, but it requires a lot of usage of the mill, and I have learnt a bit about milling by making it, so I thought I'd post it here.
As of now, I do not have a parting blade that I can use on my lathe. The big one in front on the picture is so large that if I were to mill down the holder to get it to the centre height, the mounting shoulder would only be 5mm thick afterwards, and the small one is for 25mm high blades, while I only have a 20mm blade. So I went searching for a lump of steel, and drew a c-o-c :dremel:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2018-04-09_0011_resize.JPG)
As I don't have other ways of cutting steel than the angle grinder, I figured I'd try to do like AdeV and part it on the mill. I used some water cut plates of stainless as paralells, scribed a parting line and put my only 8mm carbide roughing endmill in the collet chuck.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2018-15-44_0016_resize.JPG)
Locking the X-axis ways, I took 2mm passes at about 800rpm and 100mm/min if I remember correctly.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2018-22-42_0017_resize.JPG)
Until I eventually ran out of space
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2018-41-14_0018_resize.JPG)
I then moved the end mill out long enough to be able to cut through the part. I then slowed down the feed a bit and progressed with 1mm passes, until I was about to cut through. As I have very few endmills, I thought I'd try to be as carefull as possible when parting of, so I made a through cut from each side towards the middle, but left a few mm of steel standing out. Then I just wiggled the loose piece until It came of
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2018-56-10_0021_resize.JPG)
Afterwards I progressed to my 16mm end mill and shaved of 0,5mm in hope for a nice finish. Well the result was OK, nothing more.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2019-04-50_0023_resize.JPG)
Not changing the setup in the vise, I progressed and milled the top flat aswell.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2019-12-59_0024_resize.JPG)
I then flipped the part over and milled down the third side, which has a starting hole from the water jet, so I had to mill it down 3-4mm. I believe I used 540rpm, 110mm/min feed and 1,5mm depth of cut on a 16mm HSS endmill.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2019-37-09_0027_resize.JPG)
When that surface was fine, I also milled down the last surface, and placed it in the vise for cutting in the X-direction
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-02%2022-02-37_0029_resize.JPG)
The part was 37mm wide, I needed a 20mm slot, but settled for 19mm before finishing cuts. Subtracting 19 from 37, and dividing by 2, I reckoned I should have a 9mm edge on both sides of the slot. I started the mill, moved it close to the surface, put a piece of paper between and cranked the Y-axis handle until it just grabbed the paper. I then moved the Z-axis down, to avoid starting a cut, and progressed the Y-axis handle 0,10mm further. I then assumed I was at the edge of the piece.
Next step was moving in the 9mm, plus the cutter diameter. I didn't use my head, so I figured since i used a 16mm collet, the end mill would also have to be 16mm, so I cranked the Y-axis handle 25mm and made the first cut. To avoid backlash between cuts, I made the first cut 3mm deep, then moved the Y-axis (in the same direction as I started, to take out the full turn of backlash ::)) handle 3mm and took the remaining cut. But when I tried fitting the parting blade, I expected it not to fit as the slot shoudl be 19mm, but instead, it slid in and still hade some room to wiggle. :bang:
After going through my calculations for the fourth time, I figured the only thing that could be wrong would have to be the endmill, and yes it was. Though the shank is 16mm, the cutting diameter is closer to 18mm :wack:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-03%2019-33-20_0030_resize.JPG)
Before I started this project, I had drawn up many different concepts of how to make it. I initially settled for trying to make it similar to the Sandvik holder I already had, only 5mm shorter, but this mistake eliminated that option. My other option then became to mill an angled surface above the parting blade and fit a plate to hold down the parting blade.
So out came my fancy angle measurement kit :lol:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-03%2019-37-36_0033_resize.JPG)
After the first pass, I decided 45 degrees was too steep, so I reduced it to something that looked more sensible. I have no clue what the angle is ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-03%2019-42-31_0036_resize.JPG)
After finishing the angled surface, I decided to drill mounting holes for the screws to hold down the plate. I thought I'd do it the proper way, and marked up the centre line, put in the centre drill and started on drilling a hole. About 5 seconds in, this happened :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-03%2019-58-02_0040_resize.JPG)
I tried to get the broken piece out, but there was no way it was coming loose, so I had to drill the centre hole off centre. That's going to annoy me a bit..
Anyways, here are the holes drilled to 7mm, in the lack of a 6,8mm drill, as they are going to be tapped M8.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-03%2020-26-47_0042_resize.JPG)
This is progress as off today. Next time, I'm tapping the holes and hopefully making the fixing plate.
Should I make the fixing plate of steel or aluminium? I was thinking about using aluminium to avoid damaging the edge of the blade, or is the tensile strenght of the HSS so much larger than for steel, that it's not going to be a problem?
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Hi, This thread might help you remove the broken center drill.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=38719
Lee.
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Beautiful restoration you're doing Trion! A very solid piece of kit you have there.
I'm worried about the amount of grease you put in your spindle bearing. I just went through a spindle bearing clean & repack job on my little X-3 and had problems afterwards with it heating up way too much on the higher speed settings. I kept taking it back apart and resetting the bearing preload (looser) over & over until it ran barely warm. Then it had noticeable side-to-side play!
Turns out I had packed my bearing full with grease as it looks like you did yours. I'm a car guy too and like to pack wheel bearings full. It turns out the bearing manufacturers say to pack spindle bearings only (approx) 1/3 full to prevent excessive friction and heat buildup. I took mine back apart, cleaned out the extra grease and reassembled it 1/3 full of grease. The problem was absolutely cured! I learned a tough lesson on that project. A little bit of grease goes a long way.
If I have mis-interpreted your picture, ignore the above.:)
Cheers!
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Keep up the good :thumbup:
I fully agree with the post above about to much grease.
I just reread the thread to see if you used precision bearings or standard bearings as replacements, but I cant find a info on it.
I am just wondering as I am doing my mill Chinese HM52 mill at the moment and have found the taper precision bearings to be really expensive, around $100-$200 more each bearing. I think the factory only put standard bearings in mine, but yours would have come with precision bearings standard.
Dave
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Thanks for the reply people. I am also a car guy, and I felt I had been on the cheap side when putting on the grease as shown in the picture. Actually, that is just smeared on the outside of the bearing. So I gave it some 10-15 additional pumps with the grease pump when it was assembled and running ::)
To save the last bits of my socalled "machinist" pride, I did at some time think that the bearings might get hot with too much grease, but I have not felt any heat build up at all until now..
I have not heard of precision bearings, only regular bearings.
-
There is a good right up here about precision taper bearings.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=281020
Dave
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Thanks for the reply, though it seems that I have no access since I'm not a member.
btw. Semiskilled: I read through the thread you linked to about removing a broken centre drill, good stuff. Now I know what to do when the other side breaks :lol:
Progress :D
I tapped the holes to M8 and drilled a suiting piece of flat steel to use as a clamping plate
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-05%2021-42-07_0061_resize.JPG)
Quick assembly showing how it is intended to be
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-05%2021-44-42_0064_resize.JPG)
I then removed the blade and mounted the holder in the vise. There I milled down the side surfaces of the clamping plate
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-05%2021-56-52_0065_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-05%2022-09-53_0067_resize.JPG)
Then I milled down the mounting shank to give the holder a 16mm shank and centre height
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2019-37-48_0070_resize.JPG)
The finished shank ended up to be 16,03 +/1 0,01mm high. I could not believe my measurements, as the milling was done by using 0,10mm thick paper as feeler gauge for height and distance and the rest was lef to the graduations on the handwheels. Not to mention my dodgy parallels :bugeye:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2019-51-39_0073_resize.JPG)
Tada :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2019-51-57_0076_resize.JPG)
Then it was ready for a test. Obviously, the shape of the blade was not intended for parting, but the testing would still show if there were some mistakes in the design
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2019-54-04_0077_resize.JPG)
And there was one. I had not milled the surface for the clamping plate low enough, so the blade could still move when pushed onto a shaft of steel. So I found a shim and put it between the blade and the clamp
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2020-31-26_0079_resize.JPG)
Then I reground the parting edge and parted of a 20mm steel shaft at the slowest feed possible, adding droplets of cutting oil the whole time. The chips broke very nicely :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2020-31-44_0081_resize.JPG)
Here's the cutting shape. The front face is made at a slight angle, such that the part that is to be parted off, falls off first, then the small knob on the shaft is turned down
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2020-31-59_0082_resize.JPG)
The surface was very nice, though I should have wiped of the cutting oil before taking the picture :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-08%2020-32-12_0084_resize.JPG)
Today I felt like starting on a new project, and the mill despearately needed a cover for the Y and Z-axis ways
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2010-57-08_0085_resize.JPG)
I drew a quick c-o-c and found a suting piece of aluminium. I have no "engineers blue", but permanent marker does the same job :thumbup:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2011-10-53_0087_resize.JPG)
Cut of the excessive piece with the hack saw
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2011-13-40_0089_resize.JPG)
Milled it down to a square shank and cut the 50 degree tapered face also with the hack saw
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2011-51-32_0090_resize.JPG)
Then I cleaned up the cut faces
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2012-01-15_0092_resize.JPG)
Finally I lined up both tapered pieces in the vise, to mill the 50degree taper properly.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2012-05-37_0095_resize.JPG)
I figured since I have this fancy angular head, I might aswell use it, so I set it up for milling at 50 degrees
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2012-08-26_0096_resize.JPG)
The end mill was just a bit too short to mill the whole surface, but I didn't bother
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2012-22-52_0100_resize.JPG)
I set the head back to 0 degrees (didn't tram it though) and milled the edge flat
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2012-29-21_0102_resize.JPG)
I had already found a suiting piece of flat aluminium previously, and after a bit of lining up, i clamped one of the angular blocks to the plate
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2012-53-41_0105_resize.JPG)
Then I dug out my TIG welder and got it going at about 95A on AC
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2013-04-10_0107_resize.JPG)
On the other end of the bar I welded on a semi-square piece of aluminium which I had cut of previously
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2013-12-45_0109_resize.JPG)
Then I drilled and tapped two holes, one M6 and one M8. The M6 screw holds the angular block onto the plate, while the M8 screw pushes the block towards the other
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2014-03-48_0110_resize.JPG)
And then I trial fitted it
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2014-05-08_0115_resize.JPG)
You can just see the back of the M6 screw sticking out of the surface.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2014-05-23_0117_resize.JPG)
Then I found the designated rubber and bent a piece of 1mm aluminium plate around the edge I wanted to screw onto the mounting profile I just made
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2014-35-18_0118_resize.JPG)
Then I drilled a lot of 3mm holes, tapped them to M4 and put on screws. This is seen from the front
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2015-27-28_0121_resize.JPG)
And this is from the back
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2015-27-38_0123_resize.JPG)
Then it was ready to mount on the mill
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2016-05-13_0127_resize.JPG)
I removed the old rubber way cover and used the exisiting holes and bracket to mount the new cover to the table. I also found a longer M8 screw and welded on some mickey mouse ears to make it easy to use. I have made it this way, beacause the rubber cover is not long enough for the table to be able to move all the way down to the floor, so now I can easily move the cover with the table the few times I need it to be that low.
I must say, I'm vey pleased with the result :ddb:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2016-05-21_0128_resize.JPG)
Then I got back to the parting blade holder. Mounted it in the vise, semi-aligned it by eye measurement and took a 0,5mm cut. Initially it sounded good, but all of a sudden the noise changed and the cut became very rough. Seems like I forgot about the broken centre drill which still was stuck in it's hole, so now I have made my 16mm endmill dull :doh:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2016-39-10_0131_resize.JPG)
As a quick and dirty fix, I took the holder to the belt sander and sanded down the newly milled surface, cleaned the threads and put it all back together
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2016-47-03_0133_resize.JPG)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-11%2016-47-11_0134_resize.JPG)
That's all folks :wave:
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I managed to squeeze in a few hours of shop time on Sunday morning, here it is:
This mod is by no means necessary, I just felt like welding something and swarf protection still seemed like a hot subject in the shop, so I gathered a few pieces of stainless :dremel:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-12%2009-48-59_0002_resize.JPG)
And welded them together like this.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-12%2010-30-13_0006_resize.JPG)
The cut and bent section of the small pipe is for the part to clamp nicely onto a M16 thread
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-12%2010-30-03_0004_resize.JPG)
And here it is in place :ddb:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-12%2010-30-52_0008_resize.JPG)
I still have a lot to learn about fillet welding with the TIG welder, as you can see on the burn marks in the middle of the plate, but it ok for it's purpose :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-12%2010-31-04_0010_resize.JPG)
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Hey, those welds look pretty darn good. Better than mine. :thumbup:
Bernd
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Thanks Bernd, though the outer weld is just melting the two plates together. The fillet weld which holds the smaller pipe to the plate is far from that nice ::)
Here's a small update for you all
I have been thinking about making a whole bunch of T-slot nuts and blanks for future use, so I found a proper sized piece of steel, a 20mm indexable end mill with fresh inserts and milled it down. I started at the far end of the plate and worked my way back and forth with 10mm wide cuts. Dept of cut was about 0,5mm. I used about 500rpm and 110mm/min feed and ended up with this finish
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-14%2020-41-51_0002_resize.JPG)
It is a bit wavy on the middle of the plate, but at each end there are noticeable deep grooves, so I knocked on the dial indicator to measure the height differences, without changing the setup since the milling was done.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-14%2020-42-07_0005_resize.JPG)
A close-up of the finished surface, showing very irregular cutting patterns. The wider spots are low, while the small spots are high.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-14%2020-43-05_0007_resize.JPG)
Set the DI at 0 on a high spot
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-14%2020-43-32_0008_resize.JPG)
On a low spot, it is measuring about 0,04mm (0,0016") lower.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-14%2020-43-59_0010_resize.JPG)
When i milled it, I took care to lock the Y-axis before every cut. I also tried to switch on the backlash eliminator on the X-axis but I guess this is worn out, judging by the lack of resistance in the lever.
The way I see it, the contributors to this poor finish might be X and Z axis wear, do you agree? Other suggestions?
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It looks to me (from my position as a bit of a newbie) that your mill is out of tram:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-14%2020-43-05_0007_resize.JPG)
Where the mill has "dropped off" the edge of the plate, it looks like there's a significant ridge, with the right-hand-side of the mill (as it appears in the photo) cutting lower than the left. At a guess, this could be your knee drooping forward? Or the head being tipped slightly forward.
What I definitely don't know is why you're getting that "fall off" at the edges...
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To another newbie, it sure does look like the tram really is a bit off. And that there is some play in the quill axially. The quill seems to drop a bit when part of the milling cutter passes the workpiece edge. I.e., it no longer is "supported" for its whole perimeter. And it seems to drop more as more and more teeth become unsupported. Something in the quill is not spot on. Either there´s play in the bearings, the knee flexes, or ???. :scratch:
:wave:
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Looks more like chip drag on the back side of the cutter. Try getting the size down to within a few thousands and then switch to a fly cutter. This will tell you if the head is out of tram.
I also get a finish like that on my Bridgeport. I'm sure the tram is out by a .001" (.039mm) or so. I'm not to worried about that.. I'd be more concerened that the part comes out square and parallel.
Bernd
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Thanks for the quick reply! :nrocks:
AdeV: The tram is problably contributing quite a bit. Thoug I trammed the head right before making this cut. Unfortunately tramming is very hard to get right because the table is so full of marks, the indicator needle will easily wobble about 3-4/100mm around the places I am measuring. I try to measure on the highest flats, as I believe this might be original table height.
I will try to tighten all the screws on the head and ram to see if it helps. But since the cut was only 0,5mm, I find it hard to believe that anything would flex.
cidrontmg: Axial play makes sense, but I sure don't hope it is that, as I just rebuilt the head. Maybe I need to tighten the bearings a bit more, as they have got some time to run in now. I will try this the next time I'm in the shop!
There is quite a bit of wear on the X-axis ways, could it be that the full cut forces the table down a bit, and when the cutter is exiting the pressure is reduced and the table is allowed to move up a slight bit?
Bernd: Chip drag, one of those things I would not have thought of! A fly cutter is on my to-do list, but it comes quite a while after making T-slot nuts and end stops for the lathe. But I'll try it when it's time :dremel:
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Last time I was working with the mill, I checked for play in vertical direction on both the head and the table, could not find any in the head and the play in the table required quite a bit of force to be set in motion, which I don't believe could have been caused by a 0,5mm cut. The tram is still very far out, but as said, I have difficulties adjusting it better as of now, but I think I may have come up with a solution which should let me adjust it properly. **
But when I was beginning to part of the piece into suiting T-slot width with my 8mm carbide roughing endmill, the head started making some very bad squeaking sounds, as if a bearing was running dry or with some chips in it. So I decided to disassemble the head to search for the error. Luckily I had made the gear fit into a tight sliding fit, so the spindle didn't need much persuation before it came out :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-18%2022-41-25_0002_resize.JPG)
Having everything on the table, I was not able to find the error. But upon assembly, I had the mill running and tightened the main and upper bearings until they were making a nice sound. To loose and it would sound like crunching, too tight and they would squeal, so I aimed at the middle which has been good till now.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-09-18%2022-41-35_0004_resize.JPG)
The battery on the camera went flat, but I continued and milled the T-slot shape. Now I just need to cut the t-slot bar into suting lengths to become t-slut nuts. So last week I bought a chinese 12x9 band saw. Will do a write up on that when I begin to improve it :dremel:
** To tram the head when the table is so rough, I want to mount a plate in the vise, make a cut in the X direction and then mount the tramming tool on the cut surface without moving the Y-axis at all, so I'll be measuring in the lowest spot of the cut. Adjust the tram util there is no deviation, then mount an end mill and make a cut in the Y-direction and then adjust the tram after that. After a few iterations i better have it pretty close :scratch:
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I have made a bit of progress this weekend too :)
Bought a cheap emergency stop button and fitted it to the mill
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-14%2016-44-05_0002_resize.JPG)
Threaded a few of the T-slot nuts to M16
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-14%2019-48-22_0004_resize.JPG)
Got sick of drilling on the mill, changing collets for each drill size, so I began to use the old drill press. This one also needs some improvement, one day when I have much time to spare ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-14%2019-48-29_0005_resize.JPG)
I tapped a total of 4 t-slot nuts to M16 threads. Will mount them on a later occasion.
Next I thought I'd try making a conventional type HSS fly cutter, so I found a piece of steel that had a ugly hole in it.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-16%2015-39-36_0079_resize.JPG)
Being so eager to try sawing at an angle, i gave no thought about later machining and prepared the saw for the cut
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-16%2015-49-03_0083_resize.JPG)
Working just fine :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-16%2015-56-29_0085_resize.JPG)
And the finished piece. I'm quite pleased, considering the blade is very worn
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-16%2016-28-10_0086_resize.JPG)
What I was not so pleased about, was my lack of thinking. This odd shaped part became very inconvenient to mount in my lathes chuck, as I wanted to drill a mounting hole through the rear surface of it :bang:
So I turned it a bit on the length, just for some shinyness ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-16%2016-52-09_0088_resize.JPG)
While I was working at the lathe, I had got the saw working on its next task: new vise jaws :D
There is no problem in making them in mild steel, right?
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-16%2016-52-25_0090_resize.JPG)
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The making of the fly cutter continues :)
I mounted the workpiece in the vise, just aligned by eye measurement
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2014-40-05_0001_resize.JPG)
Drilled a hole roughly at centre. My larger drills have MT2 taper, so I had to use the biggest end mill my collet chuck would allow (20mm)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2015-28-06_0006_resize.JPG)
Next I found a suiting piece of bar stock, cut it to length and mounted in the lathe
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2015-29-13_0008_resize.JPG)
Turned the OD to 19,97mm and faced of the end.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2015-41-48_0009_resize.JPG)
This part is intended to sit the other way around, but lacking proper tooling to measure bores, I used this with some brass foil of 0,025mm
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2015-45-13_0013_resize.JPG)
I used this to roughly estimate the ID of the bore to 20,03mm
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2015-48-04_0016_resize.JPG)
Next i turned the opposite end of the shaft to 20,10mm, making a 0,07mm press fit
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2016-04-28_0018_resize.JPG)
As I don't have a shop press, I decided to use som heat to ease the assembly process
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2016-09-08_0020_resize.JPG)
After heating the part for about 10 minutes I bashed the shaft into the hole. But again, I was lacking of planning. I used both a plastic and a steel hammer, but the steel hammer destroyet the upper part of my nicely turned mounting surface :bang:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2016-18-19_0024_resize.JPG)
I ground the excess metal of on the bench grinder. Then I milled a flat on the part
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2016-45-51_0026_resize.JPG)
Drilled to 6mm, as deep as the drill would go
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2016-55-00_0027_resize.JPG)
In order to accept this thingy. I do not know what they are called in english, the norwegian translation is something like "tension pin". Anyways, this is 6,5mm while the hole is 6, making for a nice tight fit
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2016-55-44_0028_resize.JPG)
To hit such pins in place, special punches with an extending centre knob are used. I tried making my own, but it obviously wasn't hard enough. It took a lot of hammering to get it in place, but now it should secure the fly cutter quite safely to the mounting shaft
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2017-19-06_0031_resize.JPG)
With that being done, I felt secure enough to mount it in the lathe. There I turned down the OD until I had removed the rusty hole from the starting jet (when the part was initially water cut)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2018-10-04_0034_resize.JPG)
Back on the mill, ready to mill the flat surface. Again roughly aligned by eye measurement ::)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2018-14-10_0036_resize.JPG)
This was a good opportunity to test out my new carbide end mills. Here's the 20mm one taking a 10mm deep cut :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2018-28-29_0037_resize.JPG)
To make the centre cut I used a 16mm end mill. Initially I am going to use a 12mm HSS blank, but I like the ability to change, plus some room for shimming etc.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2018-59-29_0039_resize.JPG)
I suddenly became aware of what time it was, and it was approaching Top Gear time, fast. So I hurried on and tapped 3 holes to M8, mounted a few set screws with copper paste on the threads, roughly ground the tool bit, and got going :)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2019-47-39_0041_resize.JPG)
Not overly beautiful, but very functional and sized proportional to the mill. I'm happy
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2019-47-46_0042_resize.JPG)
Taking its first cut. Tram is obviously way out.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2019-52-54_0045_resize.JPG)
Need to shim the tool bit to centre position, grind it a bit nicer and tram the head properly. But it works :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-18%2019-54-23_0047_resize.JPG)
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Here's my go at tramming the head.
On the newly cut surface I put on my 0,001mm (0,00004") indicator and played around until I had almost no movement at all
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-27%2011-24-11_0023_resize.JPG)
Then I put in a piece in the Y-direction and fly cut this. Afterwards I got out the tramming tool and trammed it until I was satisfied.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-27%2012-46-51_0030_resize.JPG)
Then I sharpened the tool bit before I got going on a proper sized lump of steel. Somehow, the tram isn't perfect yet as you can see on the cutting marks (tool is moving from left to right)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-27%2013-16-14_0034_resize.JPG)
At one end I got overlapping marks which should indicate that things are spot on
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-27%2013-19-21_0038_resize.JPG)
But on the other end it seemed to be a different story. :scratch:
My conclusion is that something in the Z direction is moving. The Y-axis was locked during the cut.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-27%2013-19-27_0039_resize.JPG)
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Weird. The tramming must be very near to spot on, or the fly cutter wouldn´t be leaving the desired marks at the right half. Have you tried running it another time back and forth without increasing the Z feed? If there´s chip dragging (and there might be, you´re doing it dry), give the cutter tip a wipe with a fine stone (without removing the cutter...) and try running it again, two passes with no Z feed. And see if it changes in appearance. Chances are it will. It will be smoother anyway!
:wave:
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cidrontmg: Thanks for the reply, will try this the next time I'm in the shop! :dremel:
I did try fly cutting some aluminum also, the cutting marks were almost invisible afterwards. (the part has been wiped of with a semi clean towel, hence the longditual marks)
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-27%2013-53-17_0043_resize.JPG)
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This post was lost during the server problems on the forum, but here's it again.
Last week I bought a bit of wood
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2012-35-25_0004_resize.JPG)
Removed the vise, cleaned the table and dug out my freshly made T-slot nuts
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2013-17-08_0006_resize.JPG)
Then I dialed in the vise
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2013-54-52_0007_resize.JPG)
And finally the wood was cut into a suiting shape, making for a table cover.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-13-10_0010_resize.JPG)
Then I gave it a coat of clear paint
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-43-36_0012_resize.JPG)
Since I could not go on with the milling cidrontmg suggested, as I didn't want chips in the paint, I started looking at the gibs. Here's the X-axis gib
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-43-53_0014_resize.JPG)
This is the kind of wear I'm working with :poke:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-44-19_0017_resize.JPG)
The gib was initially tightened as far as it would go, but I still felt the table was a bit sloppy. Luckily I had bought two 3 metre rollls of feeler gauge, one 0,20mm and one 0,50mm. I cut a piece of 0,20mm and cleaned of the burrs on the ends
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-51-15_0020_resize.JPG)
I also noticed that the gib was numbered
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-57-41_0021_resize.JPG)
The same number could be found on the knee
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-57-57_0024_resize.JPG)
And even on the machine. That must be a good thing
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2020-58-08_0025_resize.JPG)
I then mounted the X-axis gib with the feeler gauge, and adjusted the tightness to what I felt was good.
Next up was the Y-axis gib
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2021-18-40_0027_resize.JPG)
Same numbere here aswell
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2021-18-52_0029_resize.JPG)
I shimmed the Y-axis gib with 0,50mm feeler gauge. This made it nice and tight, although extremely tight at the ends.
Finally I also managed to jiggle out the Z-axis gib. I was worried the table would move in all kinds of directions, but luckly it stayed put
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2022-07-01_0031_resize.JPG)
Cleaned it up
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2022-14-31_0032_resize.JPG)
On the back side it had a locating ridge
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2022-14-44_0035_resize.JPG)
So I had to use two strips of 0,20mm feeler gauge
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2022-19-22_0038_resize.JPG)
And guess what, same number here too :beer:
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-10-30%2022-14-53_0036_resize.JPG)
Then I mounted the Z-axis gib and tightened as I thought was necessary. My impression is that the machine has become a lot less sloppier, but the overload clutches on the feed have tripped a few times when moving to the far ends of either X- or Y-axis :doh:
Yesterdays contribution to the woodworking was me making a mounting rack for the ER32 collets
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-11-09%2020-34-39_0002_resize.JPG)
It also got a coat of clear paint. A couple more and the parts should be ready.
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Not much machining going on lately, as I'm reorganizing the shop to make room for my latest addition. Will give more info on it later, but I can say as much as that it's Swedish, made out of cast iron, and it was _free_!! :D
All it has to do now, is to travel the 950km to my shop ::)
But the paint on my wooden covers has dried, so here's a picture for you
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-11-13%2022-04-31_0001_resize.JPG)
There isn't much that can beat the look of fresh paint
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-11-13%2022-04-42_0003_resize.JPG)
And here's my ER32 collet rack. Made space for some extra collets, as I'm looking to buy spares of the most used sizes 8,10,12,16,20 at least.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-11-13%2022-04-53_0004_resize.JPG)
As said, more info when the new addition comes, oh the excitement! :)
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Trion
I always look forward to your updates on getting the mill into shape ect. Now I see that your are going to expand your machine or tool selection. Let me make the first guess. :doh: Is it a shapper? Now I'll just have to patiently wait until it makes the 950km trip to its new home. :coffee:
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Don, thanks for the kind words, they are good motivation for keeping on :wave:
But I will not reveal the type of machine, before I get it.
And for those of you thinking, "He should rather be making stuff instead of just buying all the time." Your are absolutely right, but I have an urge to buy stuff that seems like a good bargain. Call it a illness if you want :lol:
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Trion
There is nothing wrong with buying or acquiring more tools or equipment. You are young and have a lifetime ahead of you to use them. IMHO this is the best way to get them, one at a time as they become available and you get the benefit of restoring and checking them over so that you better understand the machine when you are using it. It is also a lot cheaper than going out and buying all new equipment to set up a shop. When I had a woodworking shop set up, that was how I did it, one piece at a time as they became available.
As far as guessing the new equipment, I'm satisfied to wait until it arrives to see if I was right or not. :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Thanks again. That's the way I have also figured that it would be good to aquire stuff. Then I also have time to figure out the advantages and disadvantages of my machinery, an be ready to strike when a better machine should turn up for sale.
Small update. Continued reorganizing the shop today, but also managed to squeeze in a quick cleaning of the coolant pump area, aswell as cleaning the pump itself and checking its function. If you don't think this looks clean, imagine the whole area dark brown. Getting it cleaner than this would require a lot of white spirit (it's an aerosol) and a lot of paper towels.
(http://www.per-spek-tiv.org/trion/Dreiebenk/2010-11-14%2019-02-27_0006_resize.JPG)
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Hi, old thread but I just bought a sajo apf 52 with alot of wiring problems. Was there a picture here of the diagram? All pic is gone now
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Hello Dyra-va welcome aboard.
I'm afraid it's a feature of forums like this that if the picture is hosted 'off forum' and that external link fails for any reason, the picture doesn't appear
That's why uploading copies of your pictures to the forum is always best, so that others can benefit from your pearls of wisdom in years to come :thumbup: 640 x 480 resolution is best so all users can see them
Why not post a thread in the 'Introductions' section to tell us all about yourself and your projects. We like pictures :clap:
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Hi welcome
+1 awemawson comments.
Trion, Lots of your pics are not showing, possibly due to being an old posting, maybe try & repost in 'new' album? :scratch:
George.
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Try these links;
https://www.maskinisten.net/downloads.php?cat=130 (Swedish site, use Google translate)
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=547FE296ECFD561F!164&cid=547FE296ECFD561F (French site, have nose around, there's more to it)
Kjelle (heading over to your thread in Introductions)