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Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: Bernd on January 26, 2009, 02:56:11 PM

Title: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on January 26, 2009, 02:56:11 PM
I've decided I need a break from engine building, so the Coke Bottle project will take a short hiatus as I pursue some tool building. I really need the change.

Now that I've got the Bridgeport I can do some serious milling. So what I need for the milling machine is a nice piece of indexing equipment. I've always thought of building one those that have been written up in the magazines for the Grizzly mini-mill but never got around to it. But now having a much larger mill I figured I needed an index. So keeping in with the spirit of Madmodder I need to modify something to fit.

Just so happened that my dad was going to toss out a lathe he had for longer than either of us could remember. It had been given to him by a friend when dad was looking for his first lathe. Problem was it was missing a tailstock, lead screw, bed support at the tailstock end and a few other things. Dad had in mind of restoring it to use for building steam engines. He scrapped the ways and the bottom of the head stock. Then for some reason it went under the bench and stayed there for quite a number of years. Just this past year he was cleaning house and wanted to through it in the dumpster. I took it home figuring I'd find something that could be done with the parts.

Enter "Mainer" on HMEM with his pic of what he did.  Link Here (http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3804.15)

This is the pic that got me all excited that Mainer posted. I figured I could do that.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index1.jpg)

Here's a pic of the Southbend headstock I've got all taken apart and ready for modification.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index2.jpg)

I'm going to make myself an indexing head for the Bridgeport.

It all needs a bit of cleaning and some lathe work. Don't quite know how I'll do it. Need to think on it a bit before I dive in and start turning down parts.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on January 26, 2009, 03:18:14 PM
Ho Ho I'm going to like this one

 :mmr:

Have fun with the project.

Cheers

Stew
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on January 26, 2009, 08:17:24 PM
That would make an interesting project Bernd....

Wonder if I could stick the whole Union lathe on my miller  :jaw:

I'm kidding of course....or am I  :ddb:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on January 27, 2009, 01:23:51 PM
Don't if it would or not since I have no idea how big your lathe is or your mill.  :)

But hey you never know untill you try.  :D

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on January 30, 2009, 02:26:42 PM
Well I started to modify the two parts from the old South Bend spindle, the bull gear and the pulley shaft.

First I started with the bull gear. I made a stub arbor for the bull gear to fit on.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index3.jpg)

Next I drilled a 1/2" hole through the center of the stub arbor to put a 1/2"-13 all thread rod through the whole works. A washer and nut holds it all in place.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index4.jpg)

I turned of the teeth, but when it got to the part I'm pointing to the lathe sounded like some one was beating on the gears with a hammer because to the interrupted cut. What to do?
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index5.jpg)

Why you put your mill to work, that's what. Here I'm milling one of the sides off. That's the hole that the pin was in when you used back gear on the lathe.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index6.jpg)

And here's the side 180 degrees opposite.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index7.jpg)

All milled off. Now back into the lathe………….
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index8.jpg)

…………..for a smooth up job.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index9.jpg)

Next is the pulley part. I didn't want all that mass on the shaft and that includes the gear. It's all one piece. I used the same stub arbor and all thread rod. I center drilled the rod for a live center to help make the setup more rigid.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index10.jpg)

Another view. I was hoping to be able to see the chips come off.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index11.jpg)

Taking a .005" finishing cut to smooth up the shaft.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index12.jpg)

And there we have it all nice and smooth.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index13.jpg)

Here are the parts temporarily stacked up.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index14.jpg)

Next will be drilling holes into what was once the bull gear. I need to do a bit of thinking as to how many holes to put in.
I know how I'm going to do it. My question is how many of you can figure out a way to accurately put indexing holes in without an indexer or DRO at your disposal?

Hopefully I'll be able to get it all together before the weekend is up and show you.

I'm going to start a thread in the "How do I" section on drilling indexing holes.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on January 30, 2009, 02:38:35 PM
Nicely executed Bernd, that was some metal removal there  :dremel:

I can just see some poor soul having finally removed his stubborn South Bend Chuck along with a couple of back gear teeth crying over this one... :D
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on January 30, 2009, 02:47:43 PM
Nice one Bernd.  :thumbup:

Love the lathe looks like an old Holbroock is it ?

Can we have a hint on the indexing, have you got some more gears available ?.

Cheers
 :wave:

Stew


Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on January 30, 2009, 03:22:35 PM
Darren,

I guess I could have removed the teeth and saved them.  :lol:

Stew,

That is a Logan lathe. Don't know exactly the model, but it's early '70's. Has served me very well. Picked it up from a freind for $1000.00 plus a lot of live steam castings and copper for boilers. I think it was well woth the money.

No gear will be used. I'm going to use a some paper and a measuring tape (ruler).

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on January 30, 2009, 03:26:41 PM
I did a quick sketch on Autosketch. I try not to use it but it comes in handy for things like this.

I figured I would use 32 holes on a bolt circle of 4.300". That works out to 11.25 degrees per hole. Enough holes for what I would need to do for now. Below is a sketch of the hole location.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index15.jpg)

So until I get the rest worked out. Keeping thinking about how I'm going to locate the holes.  :med:

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on January 31, 2009, 08:15:14 PM
Well I screwed up big time with this project. I was going to make it for a 32 hole index, it should be for a 24 hole index. Divides much nicer than 32 and who wants 22.5 and 11.25 degree division. It's only useful in wood working. :scratch:

So with 24 holes you get a division of 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, and 90 degress and so on. You wouldn't get that with 32 holes. Next I had to dig out my reference for drilling the holes. I remember seeing it in one of the magazines or books I have. While searching for the reference I came across an article on "Make a Dividing Head from a Lathe Headstock' in the Feb/Mar 2003 issue of Machinist Workshop (was Projects in Metal). The first picture in the article looked quite familar, see first pic in this htread. Then I realized it was Steve Wellcome aka "Mainer" that had posted the pic on HMEM. In the article he stated to use 24 holes also. So 24 holes it is.

I did finally find my reference to the article that showed how to originate an index plate for a dividing head. The article is in the book from Village Press (Homeshop Machinist) The Wisdom of Philip Duclos. He has an article on how to build a Model Makers Dividing Head. In it he gives instructions on how to make a template that gets used on the drill press for drilling holes in the division plate.

I gave that a try today and failed at getting good results. If anybody has the book you can check out the method used. I will post a quick write up of how it is done in the next couple of days. It'll take a few pics, and C-o-C's to explain. Also I'll explain why it might not work for me on this particular project.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 01, 2009, 03:43:25 AM
Bernd,

Have you thought about 36 holes, 10 deg spacing, also gives you some the nice odd numbers. Then you could make a 'vernier hole' block that would give you the 1 deg spacing. Just like a spin indexer.

John
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 01, 2009, 09:43:56 AM
Bog's,

The thought here is to just get the indexer going. I've read up on the 'vernier hole' indexer method. Guy Lautard has that written up in his Bed Side Reader books.

If you have a spare moment could you give me a clue as to how I would attch that to what I have now? A quick C-o-C would be nice. Thanks.

What I'm trying to do here is make a quick indexer to use. Then I would like to add on either the worm and wheel like Mainer has done to his or go with the "vernier index" method. First I need to complete this step before I decide on the next step.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 01, 2009, 04:56:49 PM
Well I've drilled the holes in the part.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index16.jpg)

It definatly was much easier using the DRO. I even cheated and used Autosketch to get the hole dimensions. But I had it done in a short time.

I then remounted it to see what it looked like.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index17.jpg)

I've been in contact with Steve Wellcome. He had asked why I turned the shaft with the pulleys and gear on it. After I had reassmebled it I wondered why too. It serves no purpose. The old bull gear fits on quite tight on the shaft.

If you look close you'll notice I drilled the holes a bit to deep and have broken out on the sides. If this get's to be a problem then I'll just make another plate and fasten it to the now new index plate.

Next will come the designing of a index pawl and clamp to keep the shaft from turning.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 01, 2009, 05:26:06 PM
Hi Bernd,

That looks really neat and well done, but when you say you used the DRO I havn't the foggiest how you'd go about using one to do this  :scratch:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 01, 2009, 09:00:27 PM
Lets see if i can explain this.

I know that once I center the spindle over the center of the part and zero out the readout on the DRO, I will need to move the table 2.300" in the X direction and the Y axis you don't move. Drill the first hole. Then I move to the next hole from the cooridinats that I figured out.

Tell you what. Next time you are over to Bogs have him show you how it's done. It'll be easier to show than tell.

Bogs, would you be so kind and show Darren next time he is over how I did this. Thanks.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 02, 2009, 12:26:18 AM
Bernd,

That is why you should get a display with a PCD function on it, it saves all the working out. The box does the work, you just turn the handles.


Bogs
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on February 02, 2009, 03:23:21 AM
HI Bernd

Good Job  :thumbup:

Now get the rest finished  :poke:

 :lol:

Stew
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 02, 2009, 09:41:32 AM
Bernd,

That is why you should get a display with a PCD function on it, it saves all the working out. The box does the work, you just turn the handles.


Bogs


John,

That would be nice to have, but my CFO won't release any funds for shop improvements at the moment. The machine came with an old Anilam readout. Works for what I want to do right now.

As I said I used the Autosketch cad program to come up with the numbers. I didn't have to figure them out. I remember doing that at work when I did first run part inspection on a coordianate machine. All it had was an X, Y, and Z readout. You had to figure everything with a calculator. Keep the brain active though.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 02, 2009, 09:43:19 AM
HI Bernd

Good Job  :thumbup:

Thanks Stew.

Quote
Now get the rest finished  :poke:

 :lol:

Stew

Oooo, ow. Ok, thanks for the poke.  :D
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 02, 2009, 01:05:33 PM
Bernd,

I remember when we had a new bridgeport CNC where I used to work, must have been late 80's. The model engineers were queueing up with jobs for it, making division plates for their dividing heads.

It is only fairly recently that the PCD option has been available for us amateurs. Now the cost has dropped, everyone can now have it (at a price). In fact now it comes as standard on most boxes, with mine you have to select on the box what machine it is to go on, so the features for the type of machine are available. But it does mean you can swap the box between machines with just the press of a button.

John
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 02, 2009, 01:37:51 PM
Hi Bernd,

I get the mechanics, just not how to make the calcs  :scratch:

Ta in advance, you're not getting away that easy.......you started it  by giving us ideas with bits of shiny stuff :lol:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 02, 2009, 07:33:01 PM
Hi Bernd,

I get the mechanics, just not how to make the calcs  :scratch:


Are you sure you want to know? I involves trig functions. :smart:

Come to think of it I don't even remember how to do the calcs now.  :med:  It's been a while.

I cheated by using the cad program to figure the positions.  :)

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 03, 2009, 07:14:14 AM
Oh ok Bernd, I'll let you off, I learnt trigs and stuff once, I have no desire to do it again  :lol:

CAD sounds good.....I'll ask John when I see him next. I ask cos I can see me wanting to do this in the not too near future.
I could prob work it out in CAD, but knowing me I'd do it the hard way,  :bang:

Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 03, 2009, 08:19:34 AM
Don't ask me to explain it, all I do is get my Zeus book out and that gives me the formulae to work to. I suppose there are people that can keep such stuff in their head, I am not one of them, thank goodness.

In fact you don't have to go that basic any more, I posted a couple of calculators early on about this project, in the other post,

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=701.0

that will do it all for you, very little brainpower required.

John
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 03, 2009, 09:40:55 AM
Just downloaded that pictcircle calculator. Going to give it a try.

Thanks for the link John.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 03, 2009, 10:50:48 AM
Thanks John, I must have missed that..... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 03, 2009, 11:57:38 AM
Glad you like it, here is a pic showing the setup figures for a 4" diameter plate with 64 x 1/8" holes based around a 00 centre location.

I don't think you need anything other than this, except an accurate DRO.

Just to clarify, the first column is the x axis (begins with 2.000)(2" from the centre point) the second column is the y axis (0.000)(in line with the centre point). These relate to the centre point of the whole circle 0-0.

Bogs

I have added the prog to the download section, it is free to use as long as it isn't used for monetary gain.
It should be available when it gets authorised by the boss.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?action=downloads;sa=myfiles;u=53
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 03, 2009, 06:13:38 PM
Hi John,

Downloaded the program and it looks a cracker,
Although it didn't help me today as I don't have a DRO  :D

I was rather hoping it would give the distance between the holes but it doesn't...oh well.
I only had three holes to do this time so did it manually, accuracy wasn't really important in this case so that was ok.

See new post tonight under projects/Lister genset

Cheers Darren  :wave:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 13, 2009, 07:30:11 PM
Finally got some stock to make the clamp. Go back to the first pic of Steve's pic. You'll get the idea.


Ok, I laid out where I needed to drill the holes and the approximate shape.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index18.jpg)

Now I needed to line up the straight line I scribed to mill about 1" off the top.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index19.jpg)

This how I aligned the part. You will need three hands or a pair of vise grips set to grip very gently to not ruin the parallel.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index20.jpg)

Next two machinist clamps to hold the parallel in place. An indicator to align the part and a large rubber mallet for slight ajustment.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index21.jpg)

And away we go. The first .200" cut at 3 iches per minute.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index22.jpg)

Almost there. Another .5" lower and I'll be done.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index23.jpg)

Ta Da, done. Both sides that is. Now to drill the hole for the cotter clamp.
(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index24.jpg)

The next few days I'll be showing how to design a cotter clamp and install it on the part.

Bernd

Modified to get correct picture above. 2nd pic.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: HS93 on February 13, 2009, 09:35:00 PM
ok whats the pink stuff, I have never had any luck with the blue stuff it,s eather streakey or to thick I have just got some new stuff and its no better, or it may be the way I put it on. anyway that looks like it could be different as you have it nice and consistant.

Peter

 :bang:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 14, 2009, 09:32:29 AM
Peter,

It's all done with mirrors. :lol:

Acutally it's the red version of the blue stuff. I got it in a bunch of tooling a guy gave me. It's quite old. It takes a bit to get it smothed out or it'll streak also. The product is "Dykem layout" Red dye 206 or 296. I believe it's the red version of the blue we used at work. Has the same oder. I'm sure that it's quite old, but it still works.

What helps to is that you wipe the part off with some alcohol, not the kind you drink, to clean the surface of any oil and it should go on better.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Divided he ad on February 14, 2009, 04:19:56 PM
Cool.... Just been through and re-read the whole thread.... Mainly started by looking for this clamp!!

Nice bit of workmanship going on there Bernd  :clap:

Personally I would have little/no use for this I think.... 1/ my mill is tiny!... 2/ I haven't even thought of using the dividing plates etc for my rotary table!! .... Maybe someday I'll see a project that will have me using them?

Still want to see what this all looks like when finished.... and what you're going to do with it!!??


Love the pink layout..... You sure it didn't belong to an old gal??  :lol:   Looks very nice though  :lol: 



Looking forward to seeing the curves going on  :dremel:




Ralph.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 14, 2009, 04:50:36 PM
That is a real nice technique you used there Bernd, to get the tangent angle set up in the vice.  :ddb: :ddb:

That is one to be stored away for future use. :smart:

We learn something new every day :thumbup:

Bogs
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 15, 2009, 09:57:20 AM
Ralph,

Keep watching. I'm making pretty good progess on it. Hopefully when it's completley done I'll be able to cut spur gears with it.

PINK! That's actually a bright red. I promise to give it back to her when done.  :D

If you ever find the head of a small lathe remember this thread. You never know it might just fit.

John,

Glad Grasshopper could show the Master a trick. It's not the most accurate but will get you within a degree or two.  :thumbup:

Next comes making the "cotter clamp". I have it desgined on, heaven for bid, Autosketch. It sure helped with the dimentions needed. But before I can make the clamp I have to make a tool that will cut a .750" hole for the cotter to fit in. So stay tuned. I'll be posting on that in the next couple of days.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 16, 2009, 03:37:11 PM
I had forgotten tha I had these pics on the camera untill I started the Cutter Block thread.

I'm milling a flat spot were the cotter key clamp is going to go. I need a flat spot for the wahers. It'll become clearer as we go.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index25.jpg)

And here is the part with both sides milled.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index26.jpg)

That'll be it for this part for a while. I need to make a tool block to make a tool to drill a hole for the cotter clamp. Sound familar when making something. Go here (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=762.0) to follow the cutter making process.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 27, 2009, 01:51:49 PM
Ok, back to making the cotter key clamp. Now that the hole has been drilled I can make the cotter blank.

To start with I'm turning down a piece of .875" (22mm) dia. brass. I had to turn it down some so it would fit on the flat that was milled on the body of the clamp.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index49.jpg)

Next I turned the body of the cotter to .750" (19mm) dia. to fit the hole in the body of the clamp. Unfortunately the hole that I had drilled with my home made drill was a bit smaller than .750".

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index50.jpg)

Next I turned the dia. for a 1/2"-13 thread and brought the ends down to minimum dia.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index51.jpg)

Next I set up the thread cutting tool using the thread gage.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index52.jpg)

Next I blackened up the thread dia. and took a scratch cut to check that the number of threads is 13 using a thread gage.
Yes, it is 13 not 15. They look very close.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index53.jpg)

The thread was cut and checked until a 1/2"-13 nut fit snuggly.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index54.jpg)

Here's the aluminum block the brass cotter and a selection of washers and the nut.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index55.jpg)

This is what it looks like assembled.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index56.jpg)

And we leave off with a look at what's next, mounting the clamp on the faceplate. It has the cotter in place to be bored out to the dia. of the spindle.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index57.jpg)

Next I'll show how I clamped the spindle clamp on the faceplate.

Now to get back and do some cabinet work before the wife finds out I'm goofing off.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 27, 2009, 02:08:16 PM

Next I set up the thread cutting tool using the thread gage.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index52.jpg)

Bernd


So that's how you square up the tool !!!!

Thanks Bernd  :thumbup:

Looks good btw, even though I can't follow where this is going just yet, keep em coming  :clap:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Divided he ad on February 27, 2009, 03:22:50 PM
Nice work Bernd  :thumbup:

I still have to find the time to have a go at this threading stuff!

I have to ask this though.... Where did the dowel looking bit go?   The one lined up above the pin, next to the nut and flat washer.... I can't remember seeing it's home?


Looking forward to the rest  :)




Ralph.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on February 27, 2009, 03:49:54 PM
Nice bit of thread turning there Bernd  :clap:

Look forward to next posting.  :thumbup:

Cheers :wave:

Stew
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 27, 2009, 07:38:37 PM
Nice work Bernd  :thumbup:

Thanks Ralph

Quote

I still have to find the time to have a go at this threading stuff!


Practice with a larger thread such as the 1/2"-13. Much easier to do than a smaller thread if you've never tried it.

Quote
I have to ask this though.... Where did the dowel looking bit go?   The one lined up above the pin, next to the nut and flat washer.... I can't remember seeing it's home?


Looking forward to the rest  :)




Ralph.

I didn't need to use it. I thought that the washer might not work alone, and that I would need something samller under the washer. But the washer by itself worked fine so I didn't need the drill bushing.

The rest of you guys, thanks for the nice comments. More to come as soon as I do a bit of woodworking in the kitchen (those cabinets you know).  :)

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: SPiN Racing on February 28, 2009, 07:09:39 AM
 :scratch:



Im watching... and learning (gonna learn to cut threads later today I think)........ BUt I still dont know what it will be.  :scratch:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 28, 2009, 07:14:21 AM
Ralph,

I too put off having a go at threading. When you read how it's done it all sounds very complicated. There seems to be quite a lot involved in setting up and actually doing it.

For my first go I skipped some of the procedures.

I cut a 1mm pitch thread on a 22mm dia and it worked fine, easy. Then I tried the same on a 6mm dia. The nut threaded on perfectly.

First I set the lathe to cut the pitch with the change gears. Positioned the tool for the first light cut, locked the saddle nut and switched on. When close to the chuck I simply reversed the lathe motor keeping the saddle nut locked. Didn't retract the tool or use the threading dial at all.
Then advanced the tool slightly and cut the next depth. Repeat till the nut fits.

Easy..... :thumbup:

I'm not saying it's the correct way to do it, but good for starting out as there is a lot less to think about.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 28, 2009, 09:25:17 AM
Darren, there are a few methods for thread cutting that can be used.

One is the straight in approach, which was most probably the one you used, and there is the offset topslide method, which is the one I prefer because it puts less strain on the cutter and machine. But each to his own.

But always, if you are going for low TPI for imperial, or large pitches in metric, it is always better to make the cut manually using a handle on the end of the leadscrew to turn the machine. I have yet to mod my machine, but it will be done in the not too distant future. The reason being, going to these size of threads puts a lot of pressure on the change gears and is liable to smash them. DAMHIK.

John
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on February 28, 2009, 09:32:14 AM
Hi John,
I did offset the slide, but only cos I'd read about it somewhere and this being a small machine.

Good point on the hand wheel, I must make one for myself as well.... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 28, 2009, 05:46:04 PM
Ok, I got more done on the index head today.

First pick is of getting the sacrificial faceplate nice and even.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index58.jpg)

Next I need to get the part somewhat centered on the hole I'm going to bore out. I took a piece of aluminum and put a 60 degree taper on the end. The other end is held in the tailstock by the drill chuck.. The clamps are just tight enough to hold the part in place.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index59.jpg)

I then use the tailstock to push the part up against the faceplate. This will get the alignment close. After I get it close I use and indicator to bring the hole in to about .001 to .002" run out. Tighten down the clamps and ……………

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index60.jpg)

…….. start boring out the hole to the required dimension, which is 1.625" (41.3mm). It looks like the part is spinning at a high rpm's but is actually on the lowest pulley combo before going to the back gear. I really don't have any idea of speed on this machine. It came with out a chart for speed.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index61.jpg)

Here you can see the cotter blank being scalloped to the dia of the bore.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index62.jpg)

And the bore is to size ready for a test fit on the spindle of the index head.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index63.jpg)

Yup, great fit on the spindle. Just a couple of tenths looseness. Next will be to bore the second hole so it will fit on the shaft behind the spindle. Then the cotter clamp will be finished up.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index64.jpg)

That's it for now. Maybe tomorrow I'll get the other hole bored to size and get the clamp permanently mounted on the index head.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on February 28, 2009, 05:54:50 PM
Good job Bernd  :thumbup: Nice write up enjoying the thread  :clap:

Cheers
 :wave:
Stew


Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on February 28, 2009, 08:24:25 PM
This is starting to become a superb post Bernd, well written and described, plus the pics take it up a notch or two.

Can't wait to see the finished article.
 
I won't ever make one, but the post is turning into a real good read, just for the techniques you are using.


John



Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on February 28, 2009, 10:18:24 PM
Thanks for the kind words John.

Haven't done this type of techincal writing in a long time. :)

The pictures sure help explain a lot. 1 pic=1000 words, right?

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Divided he ad on February 28, 2009, 11:47:44 PM
Cool.... I like it, specially the method for alignment of the hole.... Could take a while with a dti in there?

I now have a clear mental picture as to the cotter clamps design and use.... I was thinking early on "why is it mounted with the pin in it?"   :doh:

All understood now..... Been a while since I have seen something like that, possibly will be a while till I do again?

One of these days I'll find a bit of ali that'll do for one of those plates!!



Now then Bernd, my questions are ....

Are you going to use the mill for the smaller bore, or the lathe?  I would think the work would stick out quite far on the lathe?

And how are you going to round the ends off ?

...... Oh the suspence!!  :bugeye: 

 :)


Looking forward to seeing the next bit  :thumbup:




Ralph.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 01, 2009, 07:04:00 AM
Very cool.. I see how it will fit.. but will watch this area to see what it does.. LOL

And OMG that chunk of metal spinning like that makes me nervous just seeing the picture!!

Scott
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on March 01, 2009, 07:24:21 AM
Scott, nothing spins, hence the chunk of metal, think of it as a precision lock  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 01, 2009, 07:32:14 AM
HA HA HA HA Nooo when it was being bored... That pic of it as a blur... makes my knees tremble.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on March 01, 2009, 07:36:26 AM
Ooops, misunderstood you then...... :lol:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 01, 2009, 07:40:38 AM
Nothing has come off the lathe yet... but I have had work pieces fly off stuff before and its scary LOL

I think the drill press with a big couply foot bar type chunk of metal, cutting a 2 or 3 inch hole with a hole saw.. and for some reason having the speed too high, and having it bite, and rip out of the vice grip type holder, and go through the 1/2 inch plywood wall of the garage missing me barely... is spooky.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on March 01, 2009, 08:15:45 AM
Spin,

I think I mentioned recently that working off a faceplate is one of the most dangerous operations to be carried out on a lathe.
A very skilled motorcycle tuning machinist was killed recently, when a bit flew off the faceplate and hit him in the chest. Most probably dead before he hit the floor.

So really not a subject to make light of, and as you rightly said it makes your knees tremble. The famous words of Yoda should be heeded, 'Be afraid, very afraid'.

If you have had bits flying off, you shouldn't be doing that sort of operation until you can get it right, and be safe.

I don't want to be a safety nanny, but I also don't want to see members being maimed or killed for lack of a little scolding.

John
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on March 01, 2009, 12:23:39 PM

Now then Bernd, my questions are ....

Are you going to use the mill for the smaller bore, or the lathe?  I would think the work would stick out quite far on the lathe?

And how are you going to round the ends off ?

...... Oh the suspence!!  :bugeye: 

 :)


Looking forward to seeing the next bit  :thumbup:




Ralph.

Ralph,

I'm going to use the lathe. The holes are in about the middle of the part. I would have used the mill but do not have a boring head available at the moment. That's why the lathe is being used.

I have been thinking how I'm going to round the ends. First will be to cut off all the excess material and them some kind of rounding fixture. It will need to be done by hand since I don't have a rotary table yet.

Hopefuly I'll have the smaller hole done this afternoon. If I do pics will be here Monday moring for your veiwing pleasure.  :lol:

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on March 01, 2009, 12:29:23 PM
Very cool.. I see how it will fit.. but will watch this area to see what it does.. LOL

And OMG that chunk of metal spinning like that makes me nervous just seeing the picture!!

Scott

Scott,

As I said the rpm on the part isn't as fast as it looks. You know yourself that when a picture is taken as a car goes by that the time the shutter is set to would make a car doing 20mph look like it's doing 100mph. Same effect here. Had I donr the picture with a flash you would have though that I had stopped the lathe.

Three clamps hold the part in place. I made sure thay were down as tight as I could get them with out stripping the threads. Also when I do something like this I jog the lathe up to speed for two reasons, one as has been mentioned, to make sure the piece dosen't come fly out of the chuck and second to see how well balanced the machine is going to run. So all precaustions are looked into before cutting commences.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on March 01, 2009, 08:36:36 PM
Well I bored out the second hole. But ran into a problem. I'll describe when I get to that part.

First pic shows that I lined up the other side same as the first hole.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index65.jpg)

Clearance was a bit tight on second boring. I had a bout 1/4" between the part and the saddle.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index66.jpg)

So I bored the hole.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index67.jpg)

Then I tried to see if the bar would fit. WOW, it fit alright. I could have thrown it into the bore from across the room. Note the space at about 2:00 o'clock? Yup I had over bored the hole. Now what?

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index68.jpg)

Well, after several cases of beer. I came up with the idea of a plug. I bored the hole out to 1.000" (25.4mm) and made a plug with an OD the same size as the bore. I also put a lead on the plug which is about .005" (.12mm) step. This helps to determine how close you are to the specified dia.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index69.jpg)

I then Loctited the plug in.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index70.jpg)

I then turned down the OD to .740" (18.8mm) dia. As I start boring out the hole that turned down part will break off at close to the ID of the bore.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index71.jpg)

And here you can see that part has broken off, telling me I'm close to the ID of .75" (19mm)

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index72.jpg)

And there you have it. The proper ID. The bar fits with a nice tight fit.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index73.jpg)

I then used the boring bar to turn down the part of the bushing sticking out. Note the four clamps holding the part.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index74.jpg)

Here is the clamp mounted on the index head. I just need to clean up the bushing on both sides and then it's on to finishing up the cotter clamp.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index75.jpg)

Well that's it for now.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 01, 2009, 10:34:54 PM
 :clap:


EXCELLENT!

Nice recovery... (more notes)

Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on March 01, 2009, 10:51:54 PM
Very nice rescue Bernd.

If it can be fixed, it was never wrong in the first place.

John
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Divided he ad on March 02, 2009, 03:23:43 AM
Quote
Well, after several cases of beer

Mmmmm....Maybe that was before the first attempt?  Maybe not?!!  :)



Glad you sorted it out though, Would be a nightmare to have to make all that again!


Looks like it'll do the job nicely  :thumbup:



Now..... Rounding the ends shouldn't be too difficult?!  :dremel:

 :D



Ralph.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on March 02, 2009, 03:32:14 AM
Nicely sorted Bernd.

Busing like that is something we done all the time when refurbishing worn machinery, makes them as good as new.

Cheers

Stew
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on March 02, 2009, 09:50:20 AM
Know what's nice about a save like that? It's the fact that you have a lot of maching into already and you really don't want to chuck it and start over. So you take a moment and use the gray matter to see if there's a way to save it.

Had the hole been done first, it probably would have wound up in the recycle bin. :)

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on March 04, 2009, 09:32:37 PM
Next is getting the cotter clamp machined up and installed.

This is what it looks like once your all done boring out the hole. A small scallop has been bored into the cotter while the bore was being bored out. Both ends need to be trimmed off , a hole needs to be drilled through the center and the cotter needs to be cut in half right at the center of the scallop.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index76.jpg)

Using the rear mounted cut off holder.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index77.jpg)

A quick facing cut to clean up the face.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index78.jpg)

Cutting off the 1/2-13 threads on the other end.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index79.jpg)

I used two drills for the center hole. The first was #10 drill so I could tap a 1/4-28 thread. The second drill with the tape is a 17/64" (6.7mm) clearance drill half way thru.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index80.jpg)

Ready to be cut in half through the scalloped center.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index81.jpg)

The cut has been started. I'm using a "razor saw". The saw is a product of Exacto Tool company. The blade is approximately .015" (.4mm) thick.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index82.jpg)

After the part is cut in two the pieces go back in the lathe to have their ends faced off.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index83.jpg)

Next I turned down a piece of steel rod 5/16" (7.9mm) to .250" (6.35mm). This was very gummy steel. Didn't leave a very nice finish.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index84.jpg)

Next I set up to cut the 28 threads per inch and start cutting. I've just finish cutting the threads.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index85.jpg)

After trimming one end of the threaded rod it will be Locketited ฎ in the bottom part.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index86.jpg)

This is what it looks like assembled in the clamp plate.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index87.jpg)

And assembled on the index head.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index88.jpg)


Now all I need to do is make nice washer and nut like Darren has done for his tool post to finish off the cotter clamp. Then it will be on to round the ends off the aluminum block and start thinking about making a pin holding arrangement to go into the index plate.

Until next time.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on March 05, 2009, 04:38:25 AM
Ahhhh !!!

The cogs are turning  :bow:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on March 05, 2009, 04:47:24 AM
Lovely job and right up Bernd getting close to completion hay  :thumbup:

Stew
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Divided he ad on March 06, 2009, 12:05:16 PM
Ahhhh !!! Indeed!!

I was thinking of something completely different!!

Looking good Bernd...... Now, finally onto these rounding bits :)



Looking forward to seeing the next bit  :dremel:




Ralph.
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on March 07, 2009, 12:23:43 PM
Got the clamp bolt done.

I knew what I wanted so I started looking for what was laying around the shop. I did kind of like what Bogstandard would do. Look at a piece of stock and see what is in there, and of course Darren's input on using scrap played a roll in this to. So I found a spherical washer in the scrap box, a rather large bolt, my first brass ball I turned and the arbor I turned it on. I used all that to come up with what's in the picture below to creat the clamp bolt.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index89.jpg)

Now I need to round the corners of the whole clamp and come up with a plan to mount the index pin.

Until next time.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on April 03, 2009, 09:07:04 PM
I finally got the corners rounded off after much contemplating on how I was going to do it. I do have to say having a rotary table sure makes easy work of milling things round, but there is a slight catch. I need more practice and patience to do a better job of setting the part up on the RT.

So without further a-do here are the pics.

I have run into the same problem as Bogs with having both the vise and the RT on the table. Both are very heavy and you don't want to put one on and take the other off and so forth. So I decided I'd leave both on and just move the one I'm not using out of the way. If the part I'm going to do is bigger and needs more room I'll take off the one tool that's not needed. Looks like it's time to invest in a hoist.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index90.jpg)

Believe it or not you actually need to do two true ups to get the part in the center. First the part must run on center of the RT itself and the it must be on center of the spindle. In other words the part needs to be located in the center of the RT table and then the "X" axis and "Y" axis must be on center to round the part.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index91.jpg)

The first cut was taken at .100" deep and 800rpm. So were the second and third cut. It was a bit noisy on the third cut and you'll see why further down the line.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index92.jpg)

Here you can see what the mill did when I took a .100" deep cut. Because the end mill was so long it vibrated and cut a bigger slot leaving a nasty blemish in my work piece. So I only took .050" deep cuts until I reached the bottom. It helped some. I kept the cutter about .005 off the bottom of the table.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index93.jpg)

Here's the big end all done with a nasty gouge out of it. Oh well, live and learn.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index94.jpg)

Here I'm lining up the small end with the plug I had made that I used to hold it to the faceplate of the lathe when I bored the hole in it.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index95.jpg)

Push down into the hole and clamp the part to the table. No need to indicate (clock) it in, right? Wrong.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index96.jpg)

Did smarten up a bit on this cut though. I used a shorter mill. What you can't see is that the rounding over is off center to the hole a bit. Guess I should have used an indicator to center it.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index97.jpg)

Here's the finished part, blemishes and all. It's still functional, just not pretty.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index98.jpg)

And here it is installed on the spindle.

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index99.jpg)

That's it for the cotter clamp.

Maybe someday I'll make another one that is more visually pleasing, but for now this will have to do. It's functional. 

Now I need to come up with a mechanism for holding the index pin. In the mean time I have some other small jobs that need to be done.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: bogstandard on April 03, 2009, 11:17:26 PM
Bernd,

What mistake is that?

To me, it is just an area waiting to be finished off.

A flat on that area is a perfect place to mount your indexing pin contraption.

Slacken cotter, index around, push pin into required hole (it could even be spring loaded), tighten cotter, or something along those lines.

The holder on the C-o-C looks a bit robust, just a T shape would be more fetching.

Maybe totally wrong, just a suggestion to make a silk purse.


Bogs
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: sbwhart on April 04, 2009, 01:34:50 AM
Well done that man  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

That looks a good job  :thumbup:

Stew
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on April 04, 2009, 09:02:30 AM
Thanks Stew for the kind comment. :wave:

Bogs,

I like that idea. Nice, small and probably fast to make. I kind of wish I hadn't rounded the part yet.

So I'll mill a flat on the large rounded end and mount the index pin.  :dremel:

And I'll call this Ver. 1.0.0.

 Ver. 2.0.0 coming early next year to a shop near you. :lol:

Bernd

P.S. while writing this I already think I've come up with Ver. 2.0.0  :)
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on August 19, 2009, 02:40:50 PM
Well it's been April since I've done anything with this project.

Now that I've got the Rocker running I need to get to some tooling built so I can build a more complicated project. Ya like that's going to happen. Well, anyway I've gotten back to try and do a bit more on the indexer.

rleete asked what the aluminum plate was for. Well as you can see in the pic, it's to hold the indexer to the table. I need to study it a bit more to decide how and how much more I'm going to add to it.

This could be the start of my winter project, a bit early.  :)

(http://www.kingstonemodeleng.com/Madmodder/index100.jpg)

I'll keep you guys up to date on any progress though it may be slow.

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Darren on August 19, 2009, 02:48:22 PM
Thanks Bernd, I almost posted a  :poke: about this earlier........... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on August 19, 2009, 03:04:34 PM
Darren,

Though I felt something poking me.  :lol:

Bernd
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: CrewCab on August 19, 2009, 07:09:03 PM
Well I'd missed this one completely, that's just kept me entertained for the last hour or so,  :coffee:

Great thread Bernd, very informative, I've enjoyed it enormously .............. love the cotter clamp  :thumbup: ......... please keep it coming.

CC
Title: Re: Modifying a Southbend Headstock for Indexing
Post by: Bernd on August 20, 2009, 10:20:36 AM
Keep your eye open CrewCab more to come as time progresses.

Bernd