MadModder
Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: raynerd on November 08, 2009, 06:05:26 PM
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My birthday has arrived and I was finally "allowed" to open my cz120 engravers brass barstock that I have been waiting on and have a proper read through the plans for Colin Thorne's Skeleton Timepiece. This really has been a life long ambition and I`ve been tinkering with clocks on and off for the last 8 years so I hope to see it through however long it takes.
I`m also going to be keeping a blog here: http://clockbuilding.blogspot.com but to be honest, I post on here first and the blog posts come afterwards.
The research and efforts of the last month on wheel cutting is documented in this thread: http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2026.0
My aim is to continue with my efforts at wheel cutting whilest interupted efforts at other parts of the build to keep me enthused!
I recently got some punches, 20 x swiss needle files, Vertex dividing plates for the rotary table and currently on order a set of clockmakers tapered broaches. These are the only things that I can see me needing soon that I really needed to buy rather than make. I will need a depthing tool and jacots tool (or similar) which I am going to make myself over the next few months. I will eventually need a pivot file but these are £40 for one file and therefore I`ll get this later when I need it. I think I`ll manage most jobs with my standard shop tools and the few specialist tools I`ve bought.
A few pictures for you...
Here is my large set of Swiss and British made needle files -
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockstart3.JPG)
This is my set of wheel blanks - cz120 of the required guages.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockstart2.JPG)
My collection of various arbors for wheel blank and wheel cutter holding.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockstart4.JPG)
The Frame
I`m having a break from wheel cutting for a few days and I`m going to put some time into the frame. I am roughly following the order that Colin says to put it together in, in his book "Clockmaking for the Model Engineer". : http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2125.msg22051#new
The frame will need to be cut out of 5mm engravers brass and both front and back need to be identical. Pivot holes in the frame will need to be drilled together when the time comes so it is essential that the plates can be aligned quickly and accurately when needed for drilling. This is done by using brass taper pins shown in the picture. A pin is driven into the front frame at the top and bottom, the front is then polished off so the pin is invisible from the front view and a small "stub" left on the back side. This stub corresponds to a hole on the back plate allowing easy and accurate aligning. The picture shows the universal taper pins and the brass plates. These thick plates where the most expensive part of the clock:
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockstart1.JPG)
The plans I recieved are perfectly to scale so I did a photocopy, cut out a template and stuck it to one of the plates whilest clamping them together. I have seen this method used before and it is perfectly acceptable for the plates. The pallet is also roughed out in a similar way when the time comes. The plates were bolted together with M4 screws countersunk at the back side. I will then be roughing this out tomorrow on my brother-in-laws saw but I will be leaving on the little bolt tabs. I`ll cut these off right at the very end, clamp the plates together with the locating pins and finish the plates fully.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockstart5.JPG)
And that is where I am at right now. I`ll hammer home the taper pins next and then rough the shape out ....
Thanks for looking. Hopefully many more episodes to come!
Chris
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Craynerd
Well, lets start by wishing you a happy birthday. I shall also be keeping an eye on this thread as I am sure many other MadModders will also be watching. Good luck with your build. :ddb: :ddb:
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Chris, a note of caution. Not all photocopiers are "dead on" as far as scale is concerned - my office Xerox was about 1% out. It might be worth checking the copies on any critical measurements such as from one hole centre to another.
Andy
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Done :thumbup: it is just to get it roughly to shape. I`m not using it to mark any holes, I`ll mark it out once the shape is formed all from a centre line and the holes are drilled one at a time from a depthing tool. Once I`ve got the shape out, I can remove the template as the frame shape is not critical as long as it is square.
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I want to build a clock one day. I can't wait to see yours done :thumbup:
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Good luck Chris! :thumbup:
David D
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:( ... just spent 20 minutes writing this up then lost it hitting the refresh button!!
So here goes again.... perhaps shorted this time and more to the point!
After bolting the plates together yesterday I wanted to fit the locating pins so that the plates can be separated and realigned quickly and accurately. I was worried about doing this as the proceedure involved driving a taper pin through from the front face of the front plate and then polishing it out totally so that the plate/pin joint was invisible. I drilled a 1mm hole in three locations for the three pins:
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/frame1.JPG)
My clockmakers broaches came today so I used this immediately tonight to cut a taper hole right through the front plate. A stub of 1mm was left on the top plate and using a stake the pin was hammered home. The pin was cut on the back plate to leave a 1mm stub. These are the pins in place:
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/frame2.JPG)
The pins were hammered home from the front face so this now needed filing and then fine sanding to get a perfect finish so the pin was invisible. Hopefully this picture explains what I mean:
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/frame7.jpg)
Perhaps I am getting over excited but I can`t believe that you can`t see a joint from the front plate yet I am left with three nice little stubs on the back side of the plate which locate perfectly with the back plate.
I then took the hole lot around to my brother-in-laws to cut the plates out with his band saw. This took about an hour to get them roughed out. I now need to file them and after an hour at this tonight, I have a feeling a good few hours are left on this job!! The clock in the picture is also the one I am attempting. Note that I have left in the bolts on little tabs which I`ll cut off when I have finished filing. To be honest, they are overkill and the locating pins with a small clamp would surfice but I`ll leave them for now and then cut the tabs off when I am nearer to finishing.
Thanks for looking...
Chris
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/frame6.JPG)
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Craynerd
Nice start on the clock. I can tell that your excited. Before you are finished you will be an expert filer. Next thing we know you will be looking for a filing machine. :lol: :lol:
:offtopic: Whenever I do up a post I either do it in notepad and bring it in with a copy and paste or else select the entire post and do Control C for copy. Too many times just when you least expect it, it heads out to never never land, never to be seen again. With me now its just habit to do that with every post because I hate typing things twice. :lol: :lol:
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Just wanted to say that it looks like an great start, I will definitely be following along.
Jere
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Wow, very nice job! Someday I hope to make a clock, so I'm following your thread with great enthusiasm.
Files can do amazing things in skilled hands. People forget that sometimes.
:( ... just spent 20 minutes writing this up then lost it hitting the refresh button!!
So here goes again.... perhaps shorted this time and more to the point!
I've done that more times than I care to remember. My solution is to write my longer posts out with a word processor and save frequently. When I am done writing the post, I copy and paste it into the reply dialog box.
Russ
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These should have been with last nights episode but I have only just got them my from my brother-in-laws camera. We had the plates pinned in the locating holes and also bolted together. As I said last night, I now have to file it all square and neat. Any tips for filing the curves, the little go I had I struggled a bit?
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cuttingframe1.jpg)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cuttingframe2.jpg)
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I would probably use some sort of flap wheel to remove the initial bulk from the curves.
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Hey Darren. I`ve never used one before but I think I have a couple in a draw in the shop, I`ll have to have a look what they are. Great idea and thanks for the suggestion.
Chris
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To be honest, there isn`t too much bulk there, it is just getting the finish right.
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I'd still try a flap wheel, then finish by hand if necessary :thumbup:
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Looks like an ambitious project. I will be following along.
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Chris
Draw file method:- hold the file in both hands either side of the job keeping it as flat as posable move the file along the plate not across it, take you time, have good lighting, and a good clear line to work too.
Stew
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Darren since I read you post earlier in the day I did dig out my flap wheel but I only have 80 and 120 and even the 120 was being too aggresive or more like I couldn`t control it well enough. Thanks for the suggestion. I may possibly buy a very fine one for polishing at the end, this is the first time I have used one. :beer:
Stew - thanks!!! :headbang: Draw file method worked a treat, I did a bit of a google before hand and it really worked well. Infact, I used it for the flats as well as the curve. So another hour and I`ve now finished the two flat long sides and the large arcs at the bottom. I have a feeling I am going to have a few more nights on this if i want it to look accurate and neat.
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Great start,
I am still threatening to lay out a clock
but then I will know how much time I spend doing things the hard way. :lol:
-B-
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Hey Craynerd been following your post very close I have been interested in clocks since the late 60's I even ran a sales and repair business for about ten years till health problems caused me to have to close it. When I had to make something like what your doing I put the flap wheel in a small drill press so the piece I was working on was square with flap wheel and more ridged. Cliff.
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Cliff - many thanks for the idea regarding the drill press and flap wheel. I may give that a go although I seem to be getting quite a good finish with my needle files and time!
Please do keep following my posts and if you can give any other advice then I`d really appreciate it. I`m going to be making the pillars next and then back on to wheel cutting...
Chris
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Just wanting some advice with my wheel cutting - I`m trying to have the wheel blank concentric with the rotary table, would it be worth mounting the blank on the 2mt arbor in the middle of the rotary table and then trueing to final size with an end mill. That way I`ll know the wheel is true on the RT when mounted on the mill. :med: :med:
p.s just randomly sat eating my tea when I had that idea.....please, someone, is there a cure :proj:
Chris
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Chris,
You should be able to get it indicated in good enough with an indicator. It will save you machine time by doing everything you can on the lathe also.
Wes
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Forgot to mention. Looking good so far!!! You can get a lot done with a file can't you.
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Had a break from filing the frame and decided to do the pillars. I enjoyed this little bit of turning!
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/pillar1.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/pillar2.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/pillar3.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/pillar5.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/pillar6.JPG)
The bottom two need drilling and tapping in the centre section for the feet but I`ll do that later when I have finished the feet. The ends are tapped M3 and now I need to complete the washers.
Chris
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Chris
You need to get them exactly all the same length or the frame will be twist when you tighten things up.
Best way is to use a back stop.
Stew
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OK - so if I make a little jig with a 6mm hole, push the jig up to lock up against the back of the chuck and then insert a pillar. Take it down to a perfect size, lock up the saddle and repeat with each of the pillar? I`ll let you know how it goes. They currently measure 45.00, 45.20 and 45.20 so they are not exact.
EDIT: I was just reading this: http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1649.15 and unfortunately that would work as the critical size is shoulder to shoulder not end to end.
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Thats correct Chris shoulder to shoulder is the critical feature, your little jig idea would be just the ticket.
:thumbup:
Have fun
Stew
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something like this:
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/pillarjig.JPG)
Will it be accurate enough when repositioning each pillar as I will need to remove the jig from the jaws to unbolt it, or I could try and leave it in place and use a long screwdriver on my mini lathe? If I punch the jog to locate jaw 1 would that be good enough?
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... it may be as accurate turning between centres and measuring them as I go and taking my time?? I`ll give it a think before I do anything, they are easy enough to make but wouldn`t like to waste my time for the sake of it.
Chris
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A slight aside from the actual clock build, after seeing Jere's watch box for all his parts as he makes them I couldn`t help but want one. Certainly not to Jere's high standards but should serve me well in my dirty workshop! I have made a compartment at the front large enough for the frame and the first row is sufficient size for the larger wheels. I`ve been planning this all weekend and it hasn`t taken me too long to finish...
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockbox1.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockbox2.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/clockbox3.JPG)
:poke: Last picture is with it up to date!!! Hummm ::) a bit empty, perhaps I should now get on with the difficult part of building a clock! .... nope, not yet, a few more clock related jobs and tools to make! Keep posted....
Chris
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Chris,
Nice box. :thumbup:
It'll even nicer once you fill it up with the parts you make for the clock. Can't wait to see when the box is full. :headbang:
So now, get to work. :whip:
Bernd
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It looks good, I like the box.
I collect watches (mostly modern), I have a box similar for them.
-B-
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Awesome work Chris, I had toyed with the idea of attemping this clock a while back. But Im happy to settle with watching you do it instead. But im impatient so :whip:
Tim
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Awesome build Chris. Cliff.
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I`m cheesed off, I`ve just taken a nice video of me cutting the wheel with my new CNC rotary table and the damn file won`t open! It says the file is corrupt or different format. All the other videos will open so I haven`t a clue why this one won`t!
Anyway, it’s not as exciting but here are a few pictures and it is much more successful than last! I`m really pleased. Here is what has changed since my last attempt:
1. Clockmakers CZ120 engravers brass, I would never bother trying with soft brass again!!
2. A new sharp hardened cutter
3. My new CNC rotary table which worked a treat!
I`m really pleased. I`m going to re-do it as I still feel the teeth are a touch spiral which indicated my cutter was not centre. I spent a good 10 minutes eyeballing this centre with a dead centre in the rotary table and locking the Z-axis to position. I`m certain it was centre so I need to work out what was wrong, perhaps the cutter is not sitting parallel?
It could possibly run as it is only a fraction out and barely noticeable but I think I`ll go for a re-make. Just need to figure how to get this bob on centre height.
These pictures are still on the rotary table with the teeth just cut. They have since been dressed and cleaned up. The difference is the flakes that are still on the photos just flick off and rub off with fine paper where as with the soft brass in my last attempt at cutting, the brass flakes left behind were smudged and could not be cleaned. I`m not going any further with this wheel yet as I would prefer to start over a fresh but I`m confident the tooth profile is OK so the cutter seems a success.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/wheelwin.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/wheelwin1.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/wheelwin3.JPG)
Chris
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The thread to my CNC rotary table conversion is here:
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2242.0
it was built primarly for this project and seems like it is going to work perfectly.
Chris
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Nice going Chris.
A height gauge may help you get the tool at the correct height, this is how I got the key way tool set for a pulley I was making.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Grinding%20Sub%20Spindle/100_2423.jpg)
Hope this helps.
Stew
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I still reckon that, if you are cutting each space to full depth before moving round (for example, clockwise from your viewpoint) to cut the next, the brass on the left side of the space you are cutting will be better supported than the brass on the right of it (because you have already cut a space on the other side of the brass to the right, whereas there is no space to the left). Thus, the stresses of the cutting might be causing the brass on the right to bend over a little into that existing space, giving the spiral effect.
Andy
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I think Andy has a good point ..... you are coming on well there Chris ... :clap:
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Chris
Andy as made a good point, did you use a backing plate the extra thickness and support may stop that effect, also it may be an optical illusion, but the teeth look thinner than the gap they should be about the same, have you measured them ?.
Did you start with the largest wheel, that way if you get a scrapper you can reduce its dia down to the next smallest and not waist the material.
(you may end up with lots and lots of tiny wheels :lol:)
Just a leg pull
Have fun
Stew
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Hi Guys
I`ve just been with someone who has cut out some wheels and using 2.5mm combo brass which this is, you really shouldn`t need any support or backing plate. I`m not going against your advice and theory, it sounds totally likely but with this thickness of brass it seems unlikely that the teeth will bend. In my first attempt the brass was very thin and with thin brass in future wheels I will definately back them. However, I can understand how backing plate will support the teeth from pushing backwards but not bending to the right. The advice is to take the cut in one pass at full depth. It was quite a quick clean cut and I can`t see much pressure pushing the teeth sideways, I would expect it all to be against the cut.
Stew, the gaps are a touch wider than the teeth but I`ve been told that I should get away with this with lantern pinions.
I think it may be worth making a lantern pinion and depthing the two out to see if I get a correct meshing?
Chris
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I`m really pleased. I`m going to re-do it as I still feel the teeth are a touch spiral which indicated my cutter was not centre. I spent a good 10 minutes eyeballing this centre with a dead centre in the rotary table and locking the Z-axis to position. I`m certain it was centre so I need to work out what was wrong, perhaps the cutter is not sitting parallel?
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/wheelwin3.JPG)
Chris
Chris,
It looks to me as though your cutter was below centre height.
Try my setting method, used over very many years........
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1904.msg22777#msg22777
David D
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David, call me thick but I`m not 100% sure I`ve got the method right. What do you mean by "take a light cut across the blank, at the rear of the indexer.
Rotate blank 180 degrees.
Then take a same depth, but partial length cut across the blank, at the front of the indexer."
Will you end with marks on the blank? I can kind of understand what your doing, your taking a cut then shifting it 180 deg and if it is not on centre you`ll end with two marks rather than one mark on the same position right? I`m just not 100% sure of your method.... any more ideas.
Chris
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Chris
I think he means to flip the blank 180 degrees then take a partial cut to see if they line up.
Cheers :beer:
Don
Reason for edit: Wrong advise given. Don
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Chris,
Take a light pass, (make a witness mark), in your chosen cutting position......
Rotate blank/ indexer 180dgrs.
Don`t disturb Z. Move cutter in Y axis, to align with the mark you made, in it`s new position.
Observe cutter position relative to existing mark.
Adjust in Z axis until this process produces only 1 witness mark, in both 180dgr positions of the indexer........ :thumbup:
MUCH easier to do, than to explain! :scratch:
David D
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Makes perfect sense now, cheers Dave. That is a great idea. Basically, if it isn`t centre it`ll make two marks instead of one - got ya! :ddb: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Chris
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Makes perfect sense now, cheers Dave. That is a great idea. Basically, if it isn`t centre it`ll make two marks instead of one - got ya! :ddb: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Chris
Thas right! :thumbup:
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A bit of an update - not much but the frame is now cut and this is the first assembly. I need to square the bottoms of the frames. Camera phone so not the best quality:
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/img_00691.jpg)
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/img_00711.jpg)
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Looking good Chris
Have fun
Stew
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That's looking good there Chris, :thumbup: keep up the good work :thumbup: :thumbup:
Tim
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Hi Guys, digging up and old one...I`m determined to get well into this before starting any more projects. I`ve remade, for the thrid time, the wheel cutter and this one looks good and sharp. Both my other attempts have had leaning teeth and the only conclusion is that the cutter is not EXACTLY at the centre height of the wheel.
My setup as shown earlier in this thread, is my rotary table mounted upright on the mill. The centre height of the rotary table will be the centre height of the wheel and therefore I need to ensure the cutter is aligned like to this absolute RT/Wheel centre....
The rotary table takes a 2mt and I have a centre that would fit. I could put in the centre and eyeball the cutter to the centre point. Would that be good enough or can anyone think of a more accurate method? - this sort of thing is my downfall.
Chris
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Chris,
I can only repeat what I said, at the top of the page........ :wave:
David D
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Hey David! I`m really sorry ... I have to admit it has been a long time, about 4 months since picking this one up last. I posted my question elsewhere and thought I may get some good replies here also so I never re-read, not even the last few posts. Appologies, and yes I do remember the reply now however never had another go so never used it. Will attempt it for sure.
Thanks
Chris
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Although I`ve not actually posted on here, I`ve not been ignoring this project, no I`ve just been continually failing at trying to cut a wheel!! My last three attempts at wheel cutting have been a steep learning curve. Not centering the cutter, not tightening the wheel, cutter not sharp enough... Stew on here, offered to lend me a hand and so I visited his workshop last week and managed to make a multi-tooth cutter and cut a wheel. I`ve been meaning to do this sooner but only just got around to getting all the pics off my camera.
The method we used I first read from an article by David Creed on making a multi-tooth cutter and also on Deans excellent Website: http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/multipoint/multipoint.html
We have basically followed the instructions and ideas on there but here are the mandatory pictures!
This first one in my opinion was the most impressive. When calculating the tooth arc, we had to make a tool to profile the cutter to represent this arc. I had read that the easiest way of doing this would be to grind the end of a suitably sized drill bit as I have done and shown in an earlier log. Stew came up with an excellent idea of using a magnified projection of the tool to determine the correct size and profile. As you can see from the photo, Stew set up a torch, magnifying glass with the tool in between. This allowed us to project the profile onto some CAD drawings of the correct circle diameters. It worked very well and it was surprising how accurate this allowed us to be.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/clockclock1.jpg)
This shows the profiling tool ground to size and shape..... as you can see, it was in use at the time of the photo and hence all the swarf!
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/clockclock2.jpg)
Here are all the arbors and jigs made by Stew.....and taken home by me.... THANKS I owe you one!
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/rsz_clock101.jpg)
Another picture of the jig for drilling the 4 holes in the wheel blank....
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/rsz_clock102.jpg)
Cutting the profile of each cutter side...
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/clockclock3.jpg)
Cutting away the spare material of the cutter on the other jig...
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/clockclock4.jpg)
The cutter straight off the mill...finally made!
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/clockclock5.jpg)
And time to harden...cherry red and then straight in a bucket of cold water:
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/rsz_clockclock6.jpg)
The cutter mounted on the arbor and starting to cut the wheel. The wheel was mounted on my CNC divider which seemed to work quite nicely.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/clockclock7.jpg)
And the final wheel cut!
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/rsz_img_0537.jpg)
Thanks again Stew!
Chris
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Hey Chris,
Glad your getting it straighted out.
Now as far as that last picture of the gear. Is it the way you took the pic or are those teeth curved to the right a very slight bit?
Bernd
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I was thinking that Bernd but having actually seen the wheel I think it must be an optical allusion :scratch:
Stew
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:lol:
Almost every clock wheel I've made looks funny in pictures! It's a strange illusion, but if you see the wheels
in real life, they're correct. Odd what a camera lens does to closely spaced teeth. I think it's caused by a
bit of barrel distortion in the lens, especially in point and shoot digicams.
Glad you got a good 'un, Chris! The cutter jigs by Creed and J. Malcolm Wild are handy kit for us clock dabblers.
Dean
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Well done guys, looks good. :thumbup:
Nick
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Cheers guys, it was an excellent day! Certainly an early start but got a lot done!
Chris
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:lol:
Almost every clock wheel I've made looks funny in pictures! It's a strange illusion, but if you see the wheels
in real life, they're correct. Odd what a camera lens does to closely spaced teeth. I think it's caused by a
bit of barrel distortion in the lens, especially in point and shoot digicams.
Dean
Thanks Dean. I thought I was going to have to have my eye balls adjusted. :lol: :lol: (So those were real deer that jumped out in front of the car :doh:)