MadModder
Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: raynerd on April 13, 2011, 02:31:35 AM
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I was reading the "taig users" yahoo group recently where I came across a post in which someone had purchased a taig mill and lathe for the purpose of building a fire piston. Having the idea that this was some fancy engine, I quickly did a google search to find one. To my surprise this was not an engine but an instrument used to generate lit tinder for use out in the wild...and what an amazing method it used. It is simply a closed ended cylinder with tight fitting piston with tinder at the end of the piston. When the piston is rammed quickly into the cylinder, the quick compression of the air generates enough heat to light the tinder!
Here is a quick video of it working with the pictures included:
A good googling on the topic found quite a few "make your own fire piston" instructions, but all using easy to come-by materials. So using the measurements from these I set about making my own. The length is 4.25" and the bore is 10mm (nothing like mixed measurements!). This was only a quick project, probably 3-4 hours machining but I struggled to get a good bore due to the fact I didn`t have a long enough reamer or boring bar. Still, a standard 10mm drill has worked with an o-ring to seal it well. This was all made up as I went along so there are a few mistakes and it hasn`t been polished!
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston1.jpg)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston2.jpg)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston6.jpg)
The head of the piston was originally brass. You will see that although this fire piston works, making the bore 10mm is a little wide and so the force needed to compress the piston is quite high. A little too high for compressing it in your hands (I have actually done it but it hurt my palm!!) It is much easier to hold the cylinder and slam it down on something hard. I wanted to put a little cap on it anyway to hold some tinder, so I`ve made the cap out of steel. I guess it could be replaced as well. All this being said, if I was to make it again, I`d make the bore narrower so that less force is needed to be applied to compress the cylinder - so a steel cap would not be needed.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston3.jpg)
1/8" hole in the bottom; this is where the tinder sits. The little square is the piece of char cotton I`ll be using as tinder.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston4.jpg)
The hole filled with char cotton.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston5.jpg)
Well, I should have cleaned it up a bit before taking this photo but this is the end cap. This provides a solid top, a pocket to store some char cloth and an extra washer to be used on the piston if needed. I`d make this bigger if I did it again.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston7.jpg)
The char cloth I made using a 100% cotton bed sheet, cut into four 3" square sheets and put into a metal travel sweat tin. The tin had a small hole in the top (1mm) and was placed on a camping stove for 20 mins until all the smoke coming through the top had stopped, removed from the heat and sealed the hole. Lots of info on the net regarding char cloth. I was told that using char cloth is a "must" while testing a fire piston but I believe other tinders will work in it.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston8.jpg)
Char cloth lit and burning away...!
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/firepiston9.jpg)
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cotton wool will work also
I have not made one but I have seen a glass walled one ,with a steel plunger fitted with a '0' ring work with normal cotton wool ( not gun cotton :) )
Stuart
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Hi Stuart
I haven`t tried cotton wool yet but I have also heard it works just fine. I was told however that char cotton gets best results and so for 20 minutes work to make some I thought I`d make the effort and take the advice. I have to admit, it does work very well with it. I finish it at 11pm last night and so I`ve not really had much time to experiment!
They really are amazing little things... I couldn`t believe it when I got a glowing ember!
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Thats interesting Chris :thumbup:
Thanks for showing
Stew
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I have never seen something like this thanks for showing :thumbup:
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On no account put any flammable liquids into it to help things along.
They will diesel very easily, and can easily punch a neat hole thru your hand or any other part of your body that gets in the way, as the two parts seperate at high speed.
Bogs
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Nice :)
I wonder if a ceramic piston and cylinder head would help? (lower thermal conductivity) and perhaps a hollow push rod to carry some extra tinder cloth.
Bill
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Bill - I know they make these very often out of wood and there are a few people who I have seen have made them from metal like this one. Bill, what do you mean by a cylinder head; how would this be fitted?
I must admit, there is a very smart one on youtube under firepen. I`m interested in this as a science principle - I really didn`t think the concept would work! I can imagine the heat generated would ignite a gas but never thought it would ignite a solid fuel!
This looks excellent as a demo...
(http://www.survivalschool.com/products/fire_starting/Fire_Piston_Science_Demo%203pg.jpg)
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Hi all, the only time I have ever seen this before, was a demonstration by a native, I believe it was in Australia, with a carved wood form, which was technology handed down "forever" according to the person demonstrating it, and it had always been their tribal method of lighting fires, the only one in use at the time. The man demonstrating it used fluff from some seed pod for tinder, and had a fire going before the technical expert could light one with a match. I believe the demonstration was in the late sixties, or early seventies, and it had just been discovered by our modern cultural analysts, with nothing but amazement at the means, and no explanation as to how it was derived, just the jarring fact it worked, and had been in use for hundreds of generations. I was a boy Scout at the time, and busy with flint and steel with dryer lint for tinder, and made a model which worked, exactly according to the design explicated by the native. If I remember right, it was a piece of wood which grows by water and has thick bark which can be removed much like making a whistle, while wet, and yet when dry, fits like a cylinder over a piston. The method was to put the tinder in a divot in the end of the stick, hold it upright, and slip the bark/cylinder with a plug in the end, over the stick, and forcefully slam the cylinder down over the stick, then pull it up to reveal the glowing tinder. I would say I saw it back in the late sixties or early seventies and needless to say, was amazed and flabbergasted at the extraordinary display of ingenuity it was. thanks much for reminding me of this long forgotten idea. :bugeye: :beer: Cheers, Jack
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UN... REAL......
Thanks for sharing... will be making one today...
BTW... $90 on ebay..... say wha?????????
http://cgi.ebay.com/Survival-Pen-Fire-Piston-Ferrocerium-Rod-/300537997639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f975e947
Doug
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Doug - that is the youtube video I was trying to find again to post on here!! It really is amazing isn`t it. That is an excellent size and works much better than mine. I think the piston is too big on mine at 10mm dia. Quite a bit of force is needed to generate the heat required hence me having to slam it on the floor rather than just in my hands. I`ve just been taking another look at my fire piston again and I can`t get cotton wool to ignite. When I pull out the piston the cotton wool is all singed, so clearly it is near but not quite enough heat is being generated. That being said, I just blew a lit piece of char cloth on the my cotton wool and it would even spread into it, so maybe the cotton wool is no good!?? :coffee:
Madjack - it is interesting how long this method has apparently been used. Great story!
I have to be honest, I of course had to oblige the fire lighting gods and try and make a fire from my glowing char cloth ember - still no luck!! I`m obviously not cut out to be a boy scout :( :doh:
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Bill, what do you mean by a cylinder head; how would this be fitted?
By head, I just mean the capping at the end of the cylinder.
I was thinking machinable ceramic like Bonzo's(forget the name, sorry) lodge spark plug (either here or on the HMEM site)
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Well this is a very neat little project, I think I have found my next project :proj:
Thanks very much for sharing Chris :thumbup:
Tim
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Thanks for sharing Chris I had never seen one before :thumbup:
I shall have to add this to my :proj: list :nrocks:
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I have a fire piston I built using 5/16" steel rod and a piece of tube that it fit in which I capped on the end with an aluminum plug.
I like yours with the storage cap for the char, that is genius. One change I made on mine was to use a slot through the hole on the end of the piston, it makes taking the char out much easier. Never had any luck with regular cotton either.
Thanks for sharing.
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By the way Chris, in case it didn't come across, I really appreciated your reminding me of this, and you have definitely inspired me to do something about it, as I did back when I was a Boy Scout, and first heard of this. It was absolutely amazing to me then, both the method, and the fact it was discovered/invented long before writing, and that it is so easy to replicate. This is one I'm doing today. :lol: I can't tell you how much I will be enjoying it over the next few weeks. :bow: :beer: Cheers, Jack
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Nice one madjack - I`m pleased that is has reminded you. Like you, I was totally blown away by this lighting a solid fuel and being first used many years I expect before they knew how it was actually working.
I look forward to seeing some of your fire piston build log pictures!!
Chris
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Time to revive an old thread!
I have been interested in these things for a couple of years but have been struggling to come up with bore dimensions to make it easier to light. After seing one on Chris' website it rekindled my enthusiasm. I have tried many different bore diameters and lengths and have eventually found something that works without too much force and is reliable.
I know! :worthless:
This is both parts
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/dazdidge/piston1.jpg)
And this is the O ring seal, you will notice a wee dent and think to youself "careless" But there is a reason it is there, I was finding it pretty difficult to change the O rings and so knocked a small dent in it to allow me to get a pointy thing in and underneath it.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/dazdidge/oring1.jpg)
You will also notice that instead of using the normal recess for holding the tinder/charcloth I have drilled through and then slotted the top away. This holds the tinder better and also gives a much larger surface area to be lit.
For such ancient and supposedly primative technology it works a treat, I can get a fire lit almost every time.
It was seemingly discovered by explorers in the 1850's and is thought to have been around for as long as people have been using blow guns for hunting. They seem to think that the hunters noticed their blow sticks getting hot in use and a lightbulb, or star in this case, was switched on in someones head. The truth is that nobody will ever know where they came from but they sure are pretty clever.
For more info:
http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/firepiston/index.html
If anyone wants some pretty poor drawings with dimension just send me a pm with your email address.
daz
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Nice going Daz!! Glad it worked for you. Just curious, how did you go about cutting a straight bore for the cylinder. It is so long and narrow...!
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I have a long 8mm reamer and long drill for it as well .........I see a mini project coming up as there is some brass and stainless floating about in my cupboard that wants to be turned into something
ATB
Michael
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I was only looking at these the other week and decided I'd have a go. (then got hooked on glow in the dark stuff!)
Did you know that it is thought that the demonstration of a fire piston was what inspired Rudolf Diesel to create the prototypes of the diesel engine? The things you hear on QI!
Still... I'm certainly going to make one. Any info on dimensions to save all the testing would be nice Daz :poke: :thumbup:
Ralph.
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Yup. I forgot about this one. I am up for giving it a go!
Eric
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Nice going Daz!! Glad it worked for you. Just curious, how did you go about cutting a straight bore for the cylinder. It is so long and narrow...!
I have some extra long drill bits but no reamer and found that if I started off 0.5mm undersize then followed very slowly with the correct size it have a decent finish on the bore, but I still had to drill from both ends. After a while though I eventually cheated! I found some cut offs of aluminium tubing we use on our compressed air system in the factory, it just so happens that it has the correct ID. It is covered in a blue plasticky coating which takes a while to sand off but it has a very smooth bore and is perfect for the job. Will post up dimensions shortly
daz
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Fire pistons is wicked cool - the thing is, it isnt really that new even though it have got plenty of attention the last few years. =)
In my younger years one of the adults in my scout group used a brass fire piston he kept as a necklace for all firestarting. It looked old and worn, so i guess he must had for quite a while. He usually just took old wood or dried leaf, slammed them once to get the material charred, and than did it twice to really get a spark out of it and just popped the content in some old tree mushroom bark. (dont know what its called in english).. But anyway, this would been around -88-90 when i was in the scouts. =)
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Fire pistons is wicked cool - the thing is, it isnt really that new even though it have got plenty of attention the last few years. =)
In my younger years one of the adults in my scout group used a brass fire piston he kept as a necklace for all firestarting. It looked old and worn, so i guess he must had for quite a while. He usually just took old wood or dried leaf, slammed them once to get the material charred, and than did it twice to really get a spark out of it and just popped the content in some old tree mushroom bark. (dont know what its called in english).. But anyway, this would been around -88-90 when i was in the scouts. =)
Neo, I certainly never thought it was a new concept, these apparently were made many many (add plenty of 0`s) years ago out of bamboo, two pieces would be found that coincidently fit perfectly together to give the required seal!! wiki considers them "of ancient origin" .
I think perhaps what supprised me the most, is that it took me 28 years for me to ever come across one!!! My dad is 54 and grandad 86, neither of them has come across one either!! Amazing things...
Chris
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Ah i didnt nowthe history either.. And i only saw that one when i was a kid. =)
I find interesting that they are getting more and more popular and some even tries to seek patents on them. ;)
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I have made a few last week in 6, 8, and 10mm piston diametre and found the 10mm to work best. All of them I made in stainless steel with long drills and long reamers and sealed them with an o-ring 8mm from the end of the piston. the length of all of them was around the 110mm long.
ATB
Michael
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Scuba, have you any pictures?
I`d also appreciate if I could post some pics on my website, full credit to you of course!
Chris
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I can take some pictures of the 10mm one as I have that here and take pics of the others when I get back home in the middle of next week if you like
ATB
Michael
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Looks like it might be a gift for each of my grandsons (in addition to the usual cash if I want continued recognition).
Jim
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Scuba, yea, please do post up some pics and if I can add them to my site with the fire piston, that`d be good!
Aussie, lol, cash always helps!
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I tried making one for a Christmas present. I couldn't get it to work. I'll try and post pictures of it. I think it was too short?
~Wes~
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OK here are a couple of pictures of the 10mm version. I put a Zippo next to it just for size and not because it does not work as it does :D.
Anyway it started life as a bit of 14mm SS bar that I chopped in half. Then I drilled through one half and reamed it out to 10mm. The other half I center drilled ( and that bit is for the charred cloth to go in as well as the center during turning. I then turned it down to 9.95mm and put a M5 thread in the other end and a groove for a little o-ring. I had a bit of thicker bar lying around and made a disk out of that with a counter bore to take a M5 cap head screw to stick it on the end with. In the tube I cut a M10 thread with a bit of a 45 degree chamfer to take the o-ring for the M10 end plug that I made out of a SS cap head screw. Drilled the screw to put a key ring on it and job done.
You are welcome to use the pictures for your blog and if you want more precise measurements, drop me a line and I will post them as soon as I get home and get my hands on something more accurate then a Zippo lighter.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Scuba1/_DSC3618-Copy.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Scuba1/_DSC3622.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Scuba1/_DSC3621.jpg)
When I get home and remember, I'll take some pictures of the thinner ones I have made to test things but the 10mm works best so far.
ATB
Michael
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Nice one Michael, I`ve sent you a pm.
Thanks for posting the pictures.
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If you want the high res original pictures that you can crop till your hearts content, give me your email and I send them to you for you to crop and chop about.
ATB
Michael
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Hi guys, I kind of got lost for a while, but in coming back, I'll say the wood version I tried didn't work, too much friction, not enough seal I think, and I didn't get on to a metal one. I think I will now, having seen this grow to two pages, and something from my Scouting days, we carried a tin of charred cotton or other fluff for flint and steel firestarting, and the fluff you find the wife's dryer screen, particularly after washing lots of cotton and not synthetics tends to ignite very readily. As a Scout, I've scorched cotton with a stick over an open fire, and I've used the fluff from a couple different plants that grow in wetlands, and have fine fluff inside, but those are seasonal. We used to take a stick and hack with a knife all over so it looked like a fuzzy pine cone sort of, to start fires, and thin splits of pine can be split down to almost hair, and lights very easily.
I reckon it's time to make one that works, now that I've written about it. I'm thinking brass and stainess this time, cheers :beer: mad jack
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It’s taken me a little longer than expected but I have finally got round to getting some photos and dimensions. After a little more experimentation I have now got a piston that is 100% reliable and is effortless to use. I am glad I have persevered with this as it has been frustrating me for a couple of years now. I know it is a really simple design, but trying to find a bore length/diameter that worked well and was easy to use has been a PITA. A couple of other simple mods have, I think, improved it a little. Anyway, pics and dimensions below
THE FIRE PISTON
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/dazdidge/new.jpg)
PLUNGER
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/dazdidge/plungernew.jpg)
PLUNGER GRIP
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/dazdidge/grip.jpg)
Dimensions are as follows. I have not included the exterior dimensions of the piston tube as they are not relevant, all that matters is you incorporate whatever pattern or design you like into it.
The plunger is 170mm in length and 12.7mm in diameter. The hole to hold the char cloth is 8.2mm in diameter and its centre is 5mm from the end. The slot is 4mm wide. I know 8.2mm is a strange size but I had just finished drilling for an M10 thread and was too lazy to change for an 8mm. The groove for the O ring starts 10mm from the end, is 1.8mm wide and 1mm deep. Thanks to Fergus Omore I was able to make the tool for the groove with little effort. The O ring is 13mm OD and 11mm ID, which obviously gives a thickness of 1mm. I also put some grooves on the end to make it easier to pull out of the tube. When finished with it you just reverse it and pop it back into the tube for storage. If you make the plunger 1mm shorter at the grip end the O ring will get enough grip to hold it all together when not in use.
The tube has an ID of 12.9mm and is 170mm deep. I didn’t have any long reamers or drills and started off drilling one end, then the other. This worked ok but I was lucky enough to find some cut offs of aluminium air pipe with a thin wall, I later found some aluminium tube with a thick wall that was left over from a previous project, it was lovely and smooth inside and didn’t need any polishing.
I turned down and press fitted an end cap to give a nice tight seal that won’t leak air or come apart, I also rounded of the edges to make it more comfortable to push down on.
And finally.......................
WE HAVE FIRE :clap:
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii53/dazdidge/wehavefire.jpg)
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Now you done it. My other halves son has taken the 10mm fire piston as in the pics above with him to his engineering class at school. So they spent most of the afternoon including the teacher burning holes into their socks and other things and the teacher has decided to turn the making of those things into a class project and asked me if I could give him the measurements and a parts drawing etc that they can work to.
Out came my more or less pointy pencil and the calipers again and I even found a not so dog eared bit of nearly white A4 paper and started drawing up a crap-o-cad. The short person of the house looked at me and said " don't you have solid works like we use at school ?"
Errrr nope I don't and don't know how to use any CAD design program of any works, solid or otherwise. Now I can't say that to the short person can I ? Or he will loose the little respect he has. So I informed him that it would be just plain wrong to use any computer aid to make a historical device like this, that has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years and that a bit of paper and a pencil is as modern as I would want to go in this matter and by rights we should have scratched the drawing for this thing in a bit of slate.
Damn it now I have to learn some sort of CAD thing before he finds out that I have no idea how to use them and that most of my designs are "filed" on the back of empty fag packets.
Can you folks give me a nudge in the right direction of what to start off with, or I end up scratching the screen of this laptop with my dividers and stuff.
To think that it all started off as a harmless bit of fun to get rid of some scrap bits I had under my bench.
ATB
Michael
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Michael,
Have a look here, there may be something to help.
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=5011.msg56095#msg56095
:beer:
DaveH
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Michael
Can`t help you much with the CAD other than to say I`ve tried a few and I`m found solidworks good to use once I`d got the basics. Some of the cheaper and free ones I couldn`t get my head around...that could very well just be me!
I wanted to reply really to see how pleased I was that a teacher was getting interested and doing something fun that the kids will enjoy off the curriculum... I wish more would do this!!!
Chris
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Afternoon,
Im going to have a crack at making one of these too.
I did a little more research and found this - http://www.springfields.co.uk/aluminium-fire-piston-full-kit.html
Apparently its the "the new age cutting edge 'fire by compression' method"...
Nick
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Apparently its the "the new age cutting edge 'fire by compression' method"...
Nick
:doh: Some peoples children... :lol: :lol:
Cheers
Jeff
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Typical salesmen!
Nick
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Here is another commercial fire piston venture: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/267124385/sparxgear-fire-piston?ref=live
bob
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I think he smudged some of the burnt stuff onto his chin...
Nick