Author Topic: Remove Seized on chuck ??  (Read 30847 times)

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2014, 07:55:48 AM »
Mick, I do have a 1" drive air operated impact driver you could use if you have a big enough air source - I run it off a road compressor. Big hex in chuck and suitable socket should eventually shift it. (Got it for various big bolts on farm machinery)

I still think that a heavy reverse interupted cut would do it

Hi Andrew, as I said earlier my real concern with this approach being that the threads may have picked up and galled. Any forced effort to fully unscrew the backplate off could do dreadful damage to the spindle thread.
If Mick can get the backplate to undo just enough to be clear of the register shoulder and it is still tight to turn then it will be safe to assume the thread has picked up and galled and unscrewing it any further will only do more harm.....OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline awemawson

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2014, 07:59:36 AM »
I'm just glad I've never owned a lathe with a threaded spindle mount. Only had L0 and D1-4 on manual lathes which don't potentially present this problem.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2014, 08:19:29 AM »
Andrew, I absolutely agree with you,threaded spindles are the devil's work.
The worst of it being that Harrison offered the threaded nose as an option on the L6,the standard fitting being L00.

When Mick was doing the L5 restoration thread I did suggest that converting the threaded nose to taper fitting by means of an adaptor was something I plan to do to mine.

 Seeing Mick's current predicament has further convinced me that a taper conversion is the way forward for me....OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2014, 08:47:38 AM »
Thinking of Tapers(Oz!) is there room to put in a wafer thin pair of taper wedges to marginally jump the threads onto another part of the thread and break or alter the galling. It is classic engineering where the crests of the  threads are probably too high. and adding to the jam. It does reshape the threads -a tiny bit thinning them.

OK, it is hardly a time to lecture about the rounded crests and whatever they should be but it has been written about by others more expert than me.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2014, 10:09:17 AM »
Oz, I think that's right, it couldn't be wringing force because unscrewing would put it in shear, where it is weakest.

Likewise I don't think it's any kind of suction force because of the same way it is being attacked -- suction can only be 14.7 lbs/sq in, which isn't much whe figuring the area involved, and it's oriented the wrong way to resist turning -- just like a suction cup on oiled glass -- you can slide it sideways relatively easily. And in addition, the threads apply mechanical advantage to breaking the seal in the axial direction -- plus the advantage of a 3 foot bar Mick used as a lever.

I don't think its suction or wringing.

That leaves galling in either register or threads as the only other possibilities. Since it went on easily, was oiled and cleaned, and wasn't tightened hard or worked while turning, the most likely problem is that something jammed in those areas that wasn't seen or felt, and did not inhibit screwing the chuck on, but only acted when trying to remove it.

For that mysterious circumstance, I can imagine a piece of thread with a crack in it, maybe in the backplate, not being noticed and staying in place when the chuck was screwed on. That would explain the ease. But then when unscrewing the thread piece is forced outwards and jams, like a latch lock. As more unscrewing pressure is applied the thread piece, being relatively soft, deforms in length, increases in width and becomes more like a plug. Expanding and locking the thread further with every increase in force.

That's about all I can think of considering the conditions things started with -- which would seem to have been ideal.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2014, 10:22:28 AM »
If it is anything like that, galling in the threads, broken thread piece, or unnoticed plug of swarf, force can only damage the area where it is located if enough is applied to break the parts free. Only by damage can it be freed.

So if it is true, I would cut the backplate off, in hopes of saving the spindle.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline mattinker

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2014, 10:24:37 AM »
Don't forget that a thread is a wedge wound around a shaft, the leverage is like driving a wedge in between two not parallel surfaces, it can behave like a tapered cone on tooling .

I would humbly suggest warming up and a dead blow on a piece of wood across the chuck. unless you get the end of the spindle red hot, your not going to damage anything. I doubt very much that there is anything wrong with the thread.  An oiled thread can lock on like an oiled taper.

Regards, Matthew

lordedmond

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2014, 10:46:27 AM »
Well Mick

is it OFF yet we are all waiting to see who came up with the working solution so we can file it away for our own use ( those of us that have a threaded spindle nose that is )



Stuart

Offline awemawson

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2014, 10:56:13 AM »
I reckon Mick mixed up the oil can and the Loctite bottle when he 'oiled' it  :lol:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2014, 11:24:58 AM »
Andrew, on a serious note I have been considering some of the extra strong loctite retaining compound as a possible means to retain a threaded to taper adaptor conversion on my L6 spindle. Many a true word spoken in jest......OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline micktoon

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2014, 11:32:34 AM »
Hi all , thanks again for all theadvice and for the offer of 1inch windy gun too Andrew.

   The Ba##### is off after my mate Dave and myself had more tries we have then made a special parting tool and went with the plan of parting a slit in the back plate just a fraction where it mates with the shoulder of the spindle. The reason being it might work and the back plate might be able to be used again as enough metal there or if not it would be easier to turn it off in the threaded area with this tool rather than turning the whole six inch plate away.
 Photos will follow but once almost through but before risking hitting the spindle , it came off with hand pressure on an adjustable spanner.
   What I found ( and had seen befoe once I saw it to remind myself ) was a fault in the threads of the backplate, its got  a blow whole in the casting and the threads run through this fault leaving sharp edges that must be the cause I presume.
  Anyway its off and the spindle is ok so I just need to make or find a backplate now but have the four jaw chuck until then.
  For anyone else with the same problem as I think it was Pete W said with the rifle barrels this method does work so well worth noting .

  Cheers Mick

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2014, 11:46:04 AM »
Glad to hear it didn't damage the spindle thread.....OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

lordedmond

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2014, 11:50:29 AM »
QED

As we used to put after a math problem was solved


Well done and no damage to boot

Stuart

Offline awemawson

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2014, 12:22:43 PM »
 :thumbup: Excellent news Mick  :thumbup:

At least you'll be able to sleep tonight! If the backplate is cast iron (I'd wrongly assumed steel) then perhaps a bit of the material around the casting defect crumbled and jammed. Can you get at the blow hole with a die grinder to relieve around it - sort of blending in, or is it too far into the bore?
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline mattinker

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2014, 12:35:03 PM »
Glad it's off!!

 Photos?

Regards, Matthew

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2014, 12:49:40 PM »
Mick,while we're on the subject of Harrison spindles can I ask how did you determine how much to tighten the adjustment nut behind the timken head bearings. I've had to strip the L6 headstock down to remedy a couple of issues and just wondered how much you tightened your adjusting nut before tightening the second lock nut.

I do have the 2 proper Harrison peg spanners for the job,unlike the butcher who was in there before me with a hammer and punch.......OZ
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2014, 01:05:31 PM »
Phew!  :clap:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2014, 01:33:43 PM »
Great :) no damage done or blood spilled :clap:
Bill

Offline BaronJ

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2014, 05:16:33 PM »
Glad you got it off without too many problems.  I too would be interested in seeing any photographs.
A blow hole in the casting particularly if there is any loose debris in there would act like a wedge.  Not something that would be very obvious.

 
Best Regards:
                     Baron

Offline Pete W.

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2014, 06:01:47 PM »
SNIP
   The Ba##### is off
SNIP

  For anyone else with the same problem as I think it was Pete W said with the rifle barrels this method does work so well worth noting .

  Cheers Mick

Hi there, Mick,

I'm pleased you've resolved the problem.    :D   :thumbup:   :D   :thumbup:   :D   :thumbup: 

Regarding the above quote: not me Guv, I don't do guns!!   

I understand what you wrote about having to make more things to do jobs.  Still, I think making up a mandrel-gripper gizmo would be time well-spent.

eBay abounds with lathes with gears with missing teeth, usually due to using the back-gear to lock the mandrel.  Geared-head lathes aren't immune to such damage, either, leastways if their gears are made of cast iron!

I'd start with a suitable length of large mild steel hexi bar and turn all but about two inches of it down to a snug fit in the rear end of the lathe mandrel.  Drill through for a draw-bar and open out the end to form a slow female taper nearly the full diameter of the bar at its open end, then machine two or three longitudinal slits.  Make a plug with a threaded axial hole to suit the draw-bar and a male taper to suit the bore of the gizmo's main part.  Devise a suitable pin-in-slot to stop the plug rotating in the bore. 

It's really a sort of inside-out collet.  When it's locked into the rear end of the mandrel bore, the two inches of remaining hex enable gripping with a large spanner to prevent the mandrel from turning.  There - it sounds such a good idea, I might even make one myself!   
Best regards,

Pete W.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, you haven't seen the latest design change-note!

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2014, 06:04:49 PM »
Good thing. Congrats. Least possible damage.

Pekka

Offline micktoon

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2014, 06:06:59 PM »
  Hi Lads , I am well impressed at the response and well wishes , I have not had time to post the photos but will tommorow, I owe Dave a few favours as he spent all morning and a few hours yesterday..........good to have mates like that to muck in when times get tricky lolI would do te same but life is so much easier with this sort of arrangement  :thumbup:

  So I am looking for a six inch backplate I think as probably not worth risking using this one again. Still a puzzle how this chuck and backplate have been used for years by me with no problem before after heavy turning too.

 I just saw Pete W's post ......I will look and give proper credit where due lol..........been panicking too much to consentrate  :palm:

Cheers Mick 

Offline micktoon

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2014, 06:21:40 PM »
 Thanks should have gone to Willie 'Highpower' from metalworking fun forum who said he had used the same idea of parting off right next to the end of rifle arrels and it had released the stuck threads just before it broke through  :clap:

  Oz I have not got the answer mate , I was about to run the lathe more then tighten a touch more , I have read that after running 20 mins at top speed the area should just be warm. with all this spindle business my locknut and adjusting nut on the bearings had worked loose though, I do not have the special spanners and my nuts are a bi :clap:t chewed up too. I wil be trying to find out more about bearings and making spanners so will keep you posted.

Cheers Mick

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2014, 06:32:09 PM »
Mick, I bought the genuine Harrison spanners from the plane iron shop guy for about £5 each.

I'll try and find them again,I'm sure he had some left.....OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Remove Seized on chuck ??
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2014, 06:44:03 PM »
Harrison WR 20 spindle adjusting spanners £6 each, here is the link if your interested.
   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harrison-L5-Adjusting-Wrench-WR20-/360406598334
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up