Author Topic: Gingery Lathe Mods  (Read 9907 times)

Offline morgan

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Gingery Lathe Mods
« on: February 15, 2013, 10:25:16 AM »
(Note, this thread was originally part of my introduction thread half a year ago. I've split it of into the tools section to make the information easier to find for others interested in Gingery lathes -- vtsteam)

Hey VTSteam,

I live in Northern VT ( outside of Burlington ). I just finished my own build of the Gingery Lathe, though modified quite a bit. You can checkout my work at my blog if you want here - http://morgandemers.com/?cat=6

My Gingery has a wider bed ( than the original plans ), slightly bigger castings, and is driven by a 2hp treadmill motor. I designed the controller / driver electronics for it, which has worked out quite nicely.

Was curious if you were still turning between centers on the machine primarily, or if you ended up casting a backplate for a 3 jaw chuck? I've been going back and forth on trying to build the 4 jaw chuck from book 6, but I think I might just buy an import 3 jaw for now and machine a custom backplate for the lathe.

Your casting look great - what kind of sand are you using ( petrobond or greensand )?

Anyways, saw your post and that you were in VT, really cool as I don't know anyone else in the area casting aluminum,
Cheers,
Morgan
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:58:20 PM by vtsteam »

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2013, 11:13:47 AM »
Hello Morgan,

  :wave: Cool! I'm down in Guilford -- used to live in Burlington many years ago. Then took off on a homebuilt houseboat to travel down the coast for about ten years. I haven't used my Gingery lathe for a few years (nor done much machining or casting until this Fall) because everything has been in storage while I built  a house. I'm remedying that now, and hope to have a real shop and casting facilities as soon as I can build them this Spring. Right now the work on machines is pretty much determined by the weather -- this last 2 foot snowfall and the week of subzero weather before it slowed me down some! Furnace is buried, etc.

Re the 4 jaw and 3 jaw chucks -- they are quite different in purpose. I always wanted to build the Gingery 4 jaw chuck, but quite frankly, now that I own one for my Craftsman/Atlas lathe, I don't particularly like them! As you probably know by now, with a Gingery lathe you get a lot of experience with the faceplate, plus a lot of fixtures built up and methods to do pretty much the same kinds of things on the faceplate that you would with a 4 jaw chuck. I actually find it easier to adjust a workpiece on the faceplate than I do with the 4 jaw chuck!

Maybe that's just me and I need to learn better techniques with the 4 jaw. But man, adjusting 4 screws with an Allen wrench, constantly rotating the chuck back and forth, trying to estimate how much to loosen one screw while tightening another, and preventing the piece from falling out at the same time is painful! I'm sure someone here can write a whole treatise on using the 4 jaw, and how to make it easy to do that. Please do!!!

A case in point was last week when I was drilling and boring the head valve hole for my 4 cycle conversion. I could never have done that with the 4 jaw -- the casting was too wide. Piece of cake with the faceplate and an angle plate and a few bolts. Tap it a few times with a soft hammer to position it. Check with indicator. Done. I think a part firmly bolted to a faceplate is far more secure than that held by the jaws (fingers really) of a 4 jaw chuck. There is also less overhang, since the faceplate is thinner, usually.

And when I took the faceplate off (with work attached) to switch to the four jaw to try to drill a hole lengthwise in some 3/8" keystock (while making my new boring bar holder) I spent several minutes screwing all 4 jaws in only to find they wouldn't grip anything as small as 3/8"!!!!! :bang:  They only close to 1/2". I finally drilled the piece in the drill press.

Finally, you can turn bigger work on the faceplate than you can a 4 jaw (assuming you have a full size face plate).

Now a 3 jaw is very different, and quite convenient. Generally it is for round work (though there ways of gripping square work inside a split collar), and has only one adjuster. So it's a nice additional capability to the faceplate.

So I would go with the 3 jaw as a purchase, and complete the 4 jaw Gingery as a point of interest, if I were you.

Now one thing I will get to in my Gingery lathe thread is that of coming round to the idea of fixtures cast onto interchangeable arbors, rather than keeping a single arbor on the lathe and changing attachments on it.

When I mounted a 3 jaw, I cast the backplate permanently onto an arbor. This made it very simple to true (and keep the chuck true after re-mounting), as opposed to other mounting methods -- at least on something with as small an arbor diameter as the Gingery. It also meant that I had the minimal overhang possible for the 3 jaw chuck mount. The big problem with a 3 jaw is the increased chatter you get in a small lathe because of the extra overhang of the chuck and backplate combination. That can add 3 to 4 inches to the overhang.

To make my style mount, Just take a piece of arbor rod, groove up the end  -- maybe even tap in some screws as grips for the casting, and cast your backplate onto that. Mount it in the lathe and turn and face the backplate to suit the chuck. Then bolt the chuck on and indicate it true before tightening the bolts. Get a simple bolt on type chuck, not the fancy proprietary mount types. All that stuff will add to overhang, and is more expensive.

And get the thinnest chuck you can find, you will be able to take deeper cuts without chatter. Well anyway -- that's what worked for me.

Beautiful day today -- sunny and we might hit 50. Must machine......... :dremel:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline morgan

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 12:10:25 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply!

Heavy snow can be a bit of a drag for casting setup. I do have the luxury of having all my tools down in my basement, so winters haven't been so bad up here for getting in some shop time - it actually is easier as I tend to be in the house more than summer time :) At some point I'm planning on making a smaller furnace that I can use for smaller / quicker melts, possibly using in the garage with the door open in the event of lots of snow or bad weather...

That's awesome about the houseboat, sounds really neat and you must have tons of stories.

Thanks for all the information on 3 jaw vs 4 jaw, definitely makes sense. I can definitely imagine it taking quite a bit of time getting things adjusted properly in the 4 jaw. I do like the idea of a 3 jaw, and will probably go down that route at this point. When you say the 'thinnest chuck you can find', would I be looking at the smaller 2" mini lathe chucks that can be found at grizzy's site? Or would the typical 3 jaw chuck they sell with the 7x10 / 7x12 import machines be acceptable? They do seem a bit beefy but I always though the extra mass wouldn't hurt. I'm definitely no expert and have been learning ever since I started the project in 2009 - last time I used a lathe was in middle school - it is quite an enjoyable experience as my main job is software development and it's nice to get up on my feet and do some work with my hands.

I know in book #2 gingery makes suggestions about building different spindles for different tasks. With my setup it is a bit of a pain to switch out the spindle, and will probably try and go down the setscrew backplate mounted to my 3/4" nose. Hopefully it'll produce acceptable results - even at this point I've been spoiled by being able to make all the accessories it's hard to spend $60+ on a chuck without knowing if it will work or not on this machine.

I see in the photos you have the gingery 2-jaw chuck. I too built that chuck and have used it a little bit. I find it easiest to use when I have a piece that has been turned between centers, and then I'll have the piece mounted between centers to get the 2-jaw chuck mounted properly on the faceplate. Other than that it is a bit of a pain to get work mounted on center, at least to the extent that I have used it.

Good point on the faceplate work, I can see mounting directly to the plate probably being easiest, as long as you can drill / tap holes in the piece you are working on.

Well thanks again for the reply. I have a bunch of things I want to do on the machine, and hopefully will keep up with documenting the work. I'll definitely try and post to this forum when I have new stuff to share.

Cheers,
Morgan



Hello Morgan,

  :wave: Cool! ...

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 03:34:25 PM »
Morgan I have a standard type 3 jaw 4" diameter chuck. My swing is 8-1/4". I wouldn't want one bigger than about half the lathe capacity in a 3 jaw.

I think you will be disappointed by chatter and flexibility if you try to add a removable back plate, as I was. Even with your increased arbor size of 3/4" (I had the same eventually).

If you put a hub and setscrew on the back of the backplate, it will space your chuck out the distance of the hub thickness plus the thickness of the backplate, plus the thickness of the chuck -- that might be 5" total. Then add the length of your workpiece -- say it's a 2" end of 5/8" steel rod you want to turn down to a shoulder. That's a cantilever of 7+ inches.

To test out what that's like before you buy your chuck, try turning the end of a similar rod the same distance from the headstock, held in the 2 jaw chuck. I think you will find a fair amount of deflection (and chatter) if you take anything but very light cuts.

Of course you could do the same thing between centers and be fine, Likewise, a steady rest. But turning between centers or using a steady is not what you are buying a chuck for. A chuck is for cantilevered work -- work supported at one end only as a  rapid setup convenience.And so o you can both face and turn work in one go.

Now why can't you do a cast-on backplate? Changing out the arbor on a Gingery lathe is simple -- loosen the 2 setscrews in the drive pulleys, and pull out the old arbor. Place the new one in and re-tighten the pulley setscrews. That's all there is to it!

That is not much different in time or effort than loosening the setscrew on a faceplate hub, and replacing it with the 3 jaw chuck. But one MAJOR difference is, you will lose concentricity, doing it that way, (as well as get increased chatter.) Ever notice that when you change out the faceplate it doesn't quite go back on aligned as it was? Ever corrected that by re-facing it? Perhaps you're luckier than I was in that regard.

If you change out the arbor with the attachment, you know they are aligned and concentric -- that's a great benefit. You can also make up a milling arbor to take end mills. I had all three -- faceplate arbor, milling arbor, and 3 jaw chuck arbor. It would take me about 1 minute to switch between them.

Gingery lathes are different than manufactured lathes -- changing the arbor on a bigger lathe can take hours -- even changing out a V belt can be a major operation, so a screw on back plate is standard for them.

A Gingery lathe has a much smaller arbor, so it cannot handle the long cantilevers normal to a larger commercial lathe. But if you work with its strengths you can compensate by taking advantage of cast-on arbors.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline morgan

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2013, 04:01:12 PM »
Thanks for the info, I'd imagine for a backplate I'd try and do something similar to that of the faceplate hub which is 3/4", you'd have the width of the backplate maybe another 3/4" bringing it to 1.5". But that is 1.5" of nose, if I cast a backplate on an arbor I'd imagine I would be in the same situation and the thickness of the chuck in both situations would really not be considered ( as it would stick out the same distance in both cases - unless you are somehow building the chuck out of what you cast on the arbor ). I definitely see the benefit of having an arbor for each setup that will be concentric upon replacement. I've found that the flange on my spindle acts as a decent register ( followed up by a dial indicator to ensure that everything is good to go ).

I don't know if it is my setup, or maybe my belt is too tight. I don't have the quick change countershaft, so for me to loosen up the tension on the pulley it involves a lot of me getting in there and loosening up bolts, which is not something I want to do very often - possibly a down site of what I did with my lathe. There is no way I can simply loosen the setscrew collars and slide out the spindle without loosening the belt tension...

Cheers,
Morgan

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2013, 08:15:35 PM »
My backplate is 1/2" thick. There is no hub. I tried it the other way, as you describe and chatter was a problem. Good luck.  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline morgan

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 01:06:07 PM »
Hey vtsteam,

It has been a while since I posted here, but I did want to get back to you on the lathe as I have had good success mounting a 3" - 3-jaw chuck to my Gingery Lathe using a setscrew backplate ( actually re-purposed the Gingery set screw chuck from book #6 for it ). I attached a photo of that if you are interested.

I also just made a 'Norman Patent Style' Quick Change Tool Post for the lathe, with the lathe and the chuck and it turned out quite nicely. I've also attached a photo of that as well.

Hope all is well in your neck of VT.

Cheers,
Morgan

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 02:01:49 PM »
Excellent Morgan! I see you mounted your qctp on the compound slide. I didn't think there was room to do that, so I mounted it on the cross slide. Looks like you worked it out.

This info is great and seems buried in my introduction thread here. Would you mind if I split our above conversation out of this thread into its own Gingery lathe thread in the Tools section?  I think more people might like to see it than will in this thread.

(Done -- now located in the Tools section of the forum)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 04:55:58 PM by vtsteam »
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline morgan

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Re: Re: Hello MadModders, caster, lathe and turbine builder, etc. from Vermont
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 02:13:43 PM »
Thanks! Yes, I was able to mount the tool post to my compound, and actually if you look in the photos I also have a 3/4" steel block mounted on top of my compound as well. I've had a lot of problem with the threads tearing out on the old tool post, and I also think it adds some amount of rigidity / weight to the whole thing. My lathe is a bit oversized, including the headstock, and I have a bit more swing as well. Per the original plans you may not have room for the tool post on the compound though I'll have to double check on that.

By all means split out the conversation into it's own thread if you think it will be helpful to others. I know when I first was thinking about making the lathe I spent quite a lot of time trying to put together information on the internet from others to determine if the project would be worth the time / effort - and it definitely was, but if I had seen more photos / videos I may have not had to have spent as much time going back and forth on it ( which is why I've been trying to document all the work I've been doing on my lathe ).

Not sure if you will be around Shelburne VT next week, but I'll be bringing my Lathe out to the Champlain Mini Maker Faire if you want to check it out.

Cheers,
Morgan

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Gingery Lathe Mods
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 06:27:27 PM »
That is good info, thanks for that.

I've been designing a pipe dream port-a-lathe in sketchup recently, based heavily off of gingery's design, and mounting a chuck to the spindle is one of the things I wasn't so sure about how to approach.

I got the daft idea after I found a 1960s singer sewing machine out in the rain one day, in a lovely condition with the original manual and box of accessories and everything, and thought it was real nice how it all folds so neatly into it's carry case. I've always wanted to build one of gingery's machines ever since I became aware of them, but making a lathe portable would give it a purpose for me so it's not just "another lathe".

Offline morgan

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Spindle Indexer & Spindle Lock for my Gingery Lathe
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 02:18:32 PM »
Just wanted to post an update on some recent progress made to my Gingery Lathe. I really wanted to build the Gingery Dividing Head, and inevitably cut gears, but time has been lacking. My Gingery has a treadmill motor driven by a custom controller / driver that I designed for it. It seemed like a good opportunity, being that my Lathe was pretty much finished, that I could add Spindle Indexing capability to the machine with a few lines of code and a Spindle Locking mechanism. Not to say that I can cut gears right off with this indexing capability, however with a dremel holder for my new QCTP, I could definitely do some interesting things ( and possibly  cut some really basic gears in plastic ).

Anyways, that being said I finally finished it up and it is working quite well. Attached are some photos of the Spindle Lock that I designed for the lathe, and also a photo of some scribe lines on a piece of round stock. I've definitely been getting my use out of the Gingery 2-jaw chuck and faceplate, though I hope at some point to acquire a 4-jaw independent chuck since I probably won't have time to build the Gingery 4-jaw.

I also have a video on youtube covering the build, and showing the Indexer in action, though this video isn't as in depth as my prior ones..

     


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Definitely let me know if you have any questions or suggestions, the Indexing software / motor controller hardware are available on my blog if anyone is interested in using a treadmill motor on their lathe, and wants some additional capabilities:

http://morgandemers.com/dc-motor-controller-driver-project/

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Cheers,
Morgan
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 03:22:07 PM by dsquire »