buying a milling machine

[Bigbadbugga]

 

Cheers Stuart - if I remember rightly, the Sx is quite a bit more than the x3 but I guess at these prices the extra is worth it. I take your point on R8 spindle however I own a bit of 3MT stuff including er32 chuck, drill chuck and face mills - the price goes up more with additional tooling needed. Good advice though and well worth thinking about! Cheers
Just to reiterate my previous post are Seig the only makers of an Sx3 size / type machine - or do others do similar renamed models?

Axminster do them, not sure about the price compared with the ones you have looked at though.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/milling-machines-dept208257_pg1/

[lordedmond]

Axminster do the SX3 and others   they and arc are the importers as to the other makes I have no experience ,my choice was limited because I wanted a dovetail column

Chris for the price increase just to do away with the gears is worth it the gears on the X3 on the top cannot be lubed up to my satisfaction


If you have a load of MT3 tooling then you are in the same situation as me when I changed from a X3 to a SX3 ( lay shaft bent in the X3 ) thats why I have a MT3 variation , note if you do not give the draw bar the gorilla treatment the cap on top allows it to self eject  , but as I have said that the SX3 head is much better ( and you get a tilt head for better or worse ) needs tramming, the rest is the same although the elevation ratio is lower ( easier to turn the handle)


Stuart

[garym]

SX3 from Axminster £1,629.50. SX3 from ArcEurotrade £1275. No brainer really. Oh, and Axminster only do MT3 model.

Gary - very pleased owner of SX3L with R8 spindle from Arc

[raynerd]

A very basic question but only ever having MT spindles I've never looked at R8 - what is the advantage or significant advantage that would persuade me to dump my MT stuff and move to R8?

All this info is very useful!

[mosey]

Others with greater experience will tell you also, but R8 holds and releases the tool more easily and reliably.
Mosey

[raynerd]

Based on my recent experience of my MT getting stuck in the spindle then that would persuade me!

Sadly, although cheaper in Arc Euro- they are currently out of stock with no expected date of delivery shown.

Chris

[garym]

This thread on ME forum just about covers it, Chris

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=74986

I've only had mine six months but I had the space for the X3 and could afford it and decided I didn't want to regret getting the SX2 instead. After reading lots of posts on R8 vs MT3 it seemed R8 was a better choice if like me you don't have a lot of existing tooling.

Gary

[raynerd]

Thanks Gary!

I'm guessing if you have had yours only 6 months them being out of stock is only a temporary thing!
Chris

[NickG]

Sx3 is supposed to be and looks a decent machine but for that sort of money mine would be going on an AEW viceroy, Harrison or Tom Senior. The Myford VMB is also supposed to be good. If you're desperate to go
Down the chinese route there is the 626 style in the same price range to consider which is rigid and heavy but looking at Rob's thread has still put me off them for life!

[andyf]

You might also consider the machines from "Weiss" in China available from Amadeal.  Maybe the 25LV:
 http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/R8_Spindle.html .
Review here
 http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/AMA25Review.pdf

Andy

[RodW]

Cheers Stuart - if I remember rightly, the Sx is quite a bit more than the x3 but I guess at these prices the extra is worth it. I take your point on R8 spindle however I own a bit of 3MT stuff including er32 chuck, drill chuck and face mills - the price goes up more with additional tooling needed. Good advice though and well worth thinking about! Cheers
Just to reiterate my previous post are Seig the only makers of an Sx3 size / type machine - or do others do similar renamed models?

I thin Seig also make a bigger X4 but not in our market. I have the SX3 and like it a lot. I would recommend it over the X3 but if you were going CNC, then the X3 is probably the way to go as a lot of the extras are of no value.

Having touch button control over RPM ans you have no excuse not to cut at the right speed!

[Bigbadbugga]

am i missing something in this ad?

seems too cheap.

http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_leaf.php?id=9547

[awemawson]

Well Tim and Digger at G&M Tools are pretty straight fellows - ask them. They do say that the power downfeed needs sorting (as many Bridgeports do) and Eric Offen, who was their 'fixit bod' isn't with them any more.

[NickG]

I just saw that and thought it was a bargain, now that's a proper milling machine!

[Bigbadbugga]

see now that is in my budget, but the problem (apart from the space it would take up) is getting it home and into the workshop.

i would have to pay someone with a hiab to get it for me, and somehow hide i from her indoors

[NickG]

Yep thats the trouble. My harrison lathe is pretty heavy but prob not compared to that!

[doubleboost]

see now that is in my budget, but the problem (apart from the space it would take up) is getting it home and into the workshop.

i would have to pay someone with a hiab to get it for me, and somehow hide i from her indoors

Just tell her you are repairing it for a Mate
John

[vtsteam]

Paint it pink. It'll look smaller, too.

[John Rudd]

I have the SX2 as well as the Chester Eagle.....big machine big jobs, li'l machine li'l jobs.....

[raynerd]

Sx3 is supposed to be and looks a decent machine but for that sort of money mine would be going on an AEW viceroy, Harrison or Tom Senior. The Myford VMB is also supposed to be good. If you're desperate to go
Down the chinese route there is the 626 style in the same price range to consider which is rigid and heavy but looking at Rob's thread has still put me off them for life!

Nick, despite having ME as a hobby for a good few years now, I'm now wary about buying second hand based on a few bad experiences and bad buys. I know the Asian made machines come poorly made out the box, at least these can be rectified! Interesting thoughts though... Now confused

[Miner]

(Sigh) My friggen gawd I am just about totally confused at this point.
OK, at the almost 100% for sure fact I'm gonna upset a whole lot or everybody on this forum, and to be real blunt? I just don't really care cause a whole lot of you are supplying totally bogus information, and I know damn well you know or should know better. But for the ones who don't know? Then why the hell are you even posting stupid illogical crap on this thread? I'm actually pissed at my self I'm mad about this thread.

Are these forums not about a hobby or even a profession that's 100% based on facts, logic, math,etc and not about the best guesses or whatever some of you like to randomly guess at with half baked ideas?. Geezzeees H. Frigggennnnn Chhhheerrrist people. Can we not provide at least the bare minimum of the proper and correct facts for someone wanting to know them? He's asking what those damn 'facts' are. Not your best personal guesses. I would hope you could show enough respect to just maybe get it friggen right at least.

OK. The R-8 taper is or may be much more common in North America than it is in the U.K. or even Europe. And yeah those MT tapers are probably much more common at least at the hobby level in the U.K./Europe than the North American continent where it was originally invented. But we should be able to provide the bare minimum of information. Due to the taper angles, a MT is classed as a self holding taper, while an R-8 is"ALMOST" classed as a self releasing taper due to it's much steeper taper angle. By that I mean what's generally and already been said in this thread is correct. Morse Tapers do require a severe amount of hammering on the end of the draw bars to get them to release. That stupid hammering that is required beats the hell out of the spindle bearings. So for more information that no one here seems capable of mentioning? Please Google "Brinelling" especially concerning bearings. I think if you do that you'll see just how little force it takes to start your spindle bearings into the very fast and useless classification.A hammer and anything even approaching precision bearings don't really add up if your using even the bare minimum of logic. An R-8 taper if it's built correctly, will release any tool with a very few light taps if the machine, tooling, and yourself are doing things correct.

I really did expect far more from the members here than this.IMHO? If yer gonna post, then you really should or better know at least something.

R-8's are what's generally known as a self releasing taper due to it's steep taper angle. It normally only takes that light tap on the end of a draw bar to get any R-8 collet to release from a very firm hold. Despite that U.K. common MT availability there's no real logical issue that the R-8 design isn't a far better system. To say otherwise is outright lying. Logic and facts don't agree with your incorrect ideas. However......................................... there's always a damn however. You can buy some equipment and or build an add on to what you already have as a screw type 'ejector'. That does and would 'force' by screw methods verses that hammering to make a Morse Taper behave just by using a simple thread to force a MT collet to release whatever it's holding.I did own mills with MT's and made a point of selling them. But without going to CNC, and some type of ATC I see no need to buy anything that isn't an R-8. Buy what works even if it's slightly uncommon. Other than shipping? R-B is the most availible and cheapest tooling world wide. If I lived in the U.K.? I'd have to think I'd be looking for a R-8 taper.

I'd expect I'm now on a 'list'.

Pete

[Fergus OMore]

Pete,
          Good for you- it's about time that someone(else) told a few home truths.
I've made a bloody milling machine- one of those Ned Westbury's before Arnold Throp added the 'Dore' bits.
It was bloody awful- it had more blow holes in the castings than  a Cadbury Aero Chocolate bar but it turned metal and cost me about £20-- and a lot of white hairs but it worked with a scrap washing machine motor.

What is the problem now? Probably the stock answer is that few of people will 'do' with a crap machine and because they cannot really afford to have a decent machine- belly ache about the cheap sh1te Chinese efforts which -if truth be known- cost less to make than my long lost airy fairy thing with a bit of drain pipe for a column.

I had money -but not sufficient for the unessentials of life.

OK, Pete- we are now TWO of a kind.

My kindest regards- and MY thanks for your honesty and courage.

[mattinker]

Pete,

I understand your gripe, I don't exactly agree with it but that is neither here nor there! The morse tapers that I have I mostly use in adapters, SA40 to morse, the SA 40 taper is self releasing, leaving the morse behind. So to remove the morse taper, I hold the SA 40 in my right hand (I'm a South paw) and tap lightly on a bolt placed in in the threaded end of the morse taper. As my morse tapers are mounted absolutely dry, no oil, no grease, no swarf and no protective film, they come out without pounding, a light tap is sufficient. Always remove a morse taper after use.

I have no new machines, except one that was given to me with the protective gunk still on it, missing the motor which had been burnt out. Second hand machinery is in my opinion the best way to go, as the machine is probably more robust, I am prepared to spend time changing bearings, doing a little scraping and eventually finding a way to replace gears. The problems involved in second hand machinery are mechanically simple, it's true, that buying requires a certain knowledge, but sorting out a "Chinese" machine also requires knowledge.

Regards, Matthew

[PekkaNF]

Yup. This MT/R8 matter turns easily flame war. Lets see what we can agree on:
* MT was intended originally for drilling and it is pretty good for drilling.
* ISO tapers are superior for milling, but machines and tooling tends to be more expensive
* MT3 and R8 both are used successfully in home machine shop. Both tapers and tooling must be kept clean and treated with certain respect.


My opinion:
* DIN 2080 ISO 30 would be really neat in home work shop and still allow using manual draw bar (= lower price than power bar) but properly build machine would grow whole lot bigger than most new machines sold for home shop use.
* I have old German milling machine (over1500 kg), with universal head that has MT3 taper and plain bearings. Light nip on the draw bar and light tap with a small hammer hasn't produced any trouble. That machine has seen some use, before me it was in the vocational school and I have had it about 15 years.
* Very slender/thin spindle would create problems. Spindle must be rigid enough to resist deformation when any tool taper is pulled in. Also.
* I have been wanting to buy mill/drill, mostly for drilling, but the standard ball bearing or angular contact ball bearings make me feel iffy on this application. Tapper roller bearings might survive this with thick spindle.

I agree 100% on that notation of avoiding hammering ball bearings.  I have seen a products fail, because of brinneling. One example was where about 3" OD ball bearings were installed by incompetent shop - they hammered them home instead using induction heating and pressing. All failed within months....some in few hours. They last 3 to 5 years 24/7 when properly installed.

Pekka

[NickG]

Pete,
          Good for you- it's about time that someone(else) told a few home truths.

Apart from the fact that the first half of his post was completely pointless and unnecessary and the 2nd half didn't really say anything that people hadn't already said.

I looked back through the thread and all I saw was friendly advice based on the experiences people have had with different machines, what some of the advantages and disadvantages of  certain configurations are and advice on tooling.

I was also going to say the same as Matthew and Pekka said, i've never needed more than a tap to release my morse taper tooling either.