Face mill stuck in Chester conquest (x2 mill) headstock!!

[raynerd]

Guys, if anyone could post any help then I'd appreciate it.

I've tightened up a facemill into the spindle of my mill and it is stuck solid. I went to Stews about 2 years ago and he said never to tighten up on the draw bar too much as people over tighten and I've always listened to that advice and gone on the easily side. I've 100% not been swinging on it!!
Now I've got myself into a pickle!!!
I loosened off the draw bar, gave it a tap and nothing. I given the draw bar a clout, a good sharp whack and still nothing. I've taken a brass bar which is a bloody good fit and gave that a wack and still nothing. Being brass bar (stupidly) it has pushed itself into the draw bar thread. Ok...if I hit it hard enough it'll come loose. Anyway... From that point on it has been a downward spiral. I've a piece of brass bar stuck down the spindle and no matter how hard I smack it, the endmill won't come loose.

I've come upstairs before I do any more damage to have a think and post on here. What can I do now to get this freed up. I don't care if the  £40 facemill is destroyed... I just want my mill back...!!!

Any help appreciated. If I carry on aimlessly whacking it, I'm going to destroy the bearings or something else.

Help! Please!! First time in my workshop in 4 weeks, feel rubbish. I'd done a cracking job of my parts up until then!

Chris

[lordedmond]

can you block up the end of the spindle to the mill table ( use metal steel if pos ) that will take out the shock as opposed to the bearings and give you a solid base to transmit the force of the blow

Stuart

[DMIOM]

Chris - is it an R8 or an MT spindle?

If it is MT, you should have slot to pop an extractor wedge in.

Otherwise, you may be able to get a pair of folding-wedges in.  Make/get a pair and slot them to fit around where you can get to. You can bring them together with shock force but best to lubricate them and then apply the squeeze with cramps/clamps, then apply light shock to the spindle (but beware of what'll come crashing down on your toes if/when it does let go!)

Dave

[awemawson]

Chris, firstly bad luck, I feel for you.

Now if I remember correctly you are into electronics. Do you have any freezer spray of the sort used for finding elusive electronic faults?  Somehow you need to cool the male and heat the female (story of my life <G>) so that the contraction of the male and expansion of the female free the bind.

Best of luck.

[Meldonmech]

Hi Chris,
                When removing the MT components from a spindle, it is important to ensure that the hammer does not bounce. I normally screw the nut level with the end of the drawbar, then only give the end a light tap, but with a heavy club hammer. It is the mass that is important not the velocity of the strike. This always works for me.
                         Good Luck    Cheers David
                       

[raynerd]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

Stuart - yep, I'm hitting it with the facemill pushed down on a metal plate (removed the cutting tips)

David - MT but there are no visible slots for a drift. I thnk I know what you mean as my old pillar drill had somethng like that but nothing on the mill! Consequently, no where I can see to put slot wedges.

Awemawson - ok, I'll have to give that a go. Funnily enough, I've never used freeze spray but I have got an old can on my shelf! I'll have to give this a go tomorrow. Sadly the kids are in bed so I can't be banging any more tonight.

I just had a about an hour back before they went to bed and still nothing. I gave it a proper wack with a 2" steel bar ( bigger than my smallest hammer) I think Awemawson, your way is the only option, if I hit it any harder it'll be sure to do some damage. I'm so annoyed... I honestly didn't pull the draw bar tight at all, certainly no tighter than usual.

My other problem is that the brass bar is definitely locked in the thread of the facemill... That was my only stupid mistake but hitting it should still release the facemill so it is well and truly bound.


Any more comments welcome.


Chris

[raynerd]

David, you were typing when I was posting. Honestly, I've hit it in every way and even with a large 2" steel bar with a plate on top of the brass bar...very little bounce and just nothing. It locked up about a year ago and I must admit I had to give it a real hit to free it but I've tried everything, it just isn't for freeing this time!!
Chris

[John Rudd]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies.


My other problem is that the brass bar is definitely locked in the thread of the facemill...
Chris

Chris wont the brass bar come out by unscrewing it?

[doubleboost]

Taper wedges on the bottom of the spindle then impact
There was a long thread about a similar thing a few months ago
John

[NormanV]

"Stuart - yep, I'm hitting it with the facemill pushed down on a metal plate (removed the cutting tips)"

I may have got this wrong but are you supporting the facemill? Wouldn't your hammer blows just be transmitted to another part of the machine rather than knocking the cutter off the taper?
Norman

[velocette]

Hi Chris
You have  a bit of a problem there. Can you dismantle the Cutter head from the morse taper to lessen the mass and reduce its dampening effects on the force applied to the morse taper.

Is it a viable alternative to to remove the spindle from the mill head and apply heat to the  outside of the morse taper and then cool the cutter spindle.

Or remove the  Mill spindle and fit a NEW one if all else fails. Expensive but effective.

Eric

[kayz1]

Hi Chris, is it the Champion 16V machine? if so like mine this has happened several times to me.
The first time ( new to all this ) i called the Chester engineer out, guess what he did! whacked
it hard with a BIG knocker ( hammer ).. this happened with every MT2 holder i used until i bought
a better one from another dealer upt norf.
Lyn.

[John Rudd]

Hi Chris, is it the Champion 16V machine?.
Lyn.

Nope, the machine is a Conquest, smaller than the Champ........

[Pete.]

I'd take off all but one insert, set it up for an interrupted cut and let it hammer away for a bit.

[philf]

Chris,

Have a look at http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,6881.0.html

It gets to page 4 before Ukazak's similar problem was solved.

Good Luck!

Phil.

[doubleboost]

Chris,

Have a look at http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,6881.0.html

It gets to page 4 before Ukazak's similar problem was solved.

Good Luck!

Phil.

That is the thread I was thinking about
John

[NickG]

Chris if you're supporting the face mill it won't come out as has nowhere to go as Norman said,
You need to support the spindle - though that may be tricky with the face cutter in the way.

[raynerd]

Bloody hell... Just looked at the old 5 page thread... I'd missed that!!

It will be a pain n the arse milling those wedges without a mill!    :-(

All I wanted to do tonight was drill some holes!! 


Thanks for all your help and pointing me in the direction of the link. Looks like some wedges will need to be made! There is only about a 2.5mm gap to get them in!

[raynerd]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies.


My other problem is that the brass bar is definitely locked in the thread of the facemill...
Chris

Chris wont the brass bar come out by unscrewing it?

You would expect so but it won't budge!!
Chris

[Joules]

Drip some diesel down the spindle, allow a few hours for it to work its way about then use a hair drier to raise the spindle temperature.  Be nice if you can keep the cutter cool.  Then try tapping it firmly with a hammer.

                                Joules

[vtsteam]

Double wedges per the link above also helped me where nothing else would work as mentioned here:

http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,8208.0.html

Without a mill, use a hand grinder to rough in the tapers and then finish with a file.

I used angle iron and cut one leg off short. You could do that with a hacksaw. Drill and slot with a hacksaw.

[Anzaniste]

Would £6.75 be worth spending on wedges?
These http://www.mscdirect.co.uk/CGI/INSRCH?ns=1&oldNtt=08592941&oldNtk=Keyword+Search&oldURLVar=09210886EBF429480A99C08D34864FA1189FFF4A28D2F37EFC701220724C561490AB4B5EBCD7FC6834694FD8EAFED85FE982A168FFB14C435CCE6B9AEE5D4863CF866073548A1662FD0790ACE588A64ACBB604A9E32DCCEB03589A22949E39721959292B97CB1F236FFAB1C2ED0694C33068B9D01A98B39C4369F5D72F6CC04C620FB8FA32045C77F41D47410E7C0B412943AD2816C716718B702C6CF94BB9DE138541D5AE233F6918A55FB5E391DA4A12C691FB2AF0CC2CD928985CBCD71D2A7F134C35FED76B5E27273796687CF5FD5C5B97AA4A483295DD65D2858EFB9BE009C43D86FE8EA5A634D496313316F42A39780A4DA59F14E85C80597CB5037A24&scrNtt=Jacobs+chuck+removal+wedges&x=16&y=11&Ntk=Keyword+Search should remove the pain in the arse milling job. Somewhere on the squinternet is the width of the jaw gap so you can relate the wedges to a morse taper rather than a Jacobs taper. I think I looked it up in Machineries Hand Book, I'm on hols at the moment 400 miles away from my shed so I can't check for you.

[Stilldrillin]

Chris.
Have you seen my crap-o-cad, half way down page 3?   http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,6881.50.html

Supporting the end of the spindle. Worked well for me....... 

David D

[lordedmond]

Chris

I said block up the spindle NOT the face mill

but the wedges would be kinder , I just use a block of lead about 1 inch dia and 2 inch long one quick clout does it MT3


Stuart

[chipenter]

It sounds like the end of the brass bar has flared out and is now gripping the spindle , and the only way is to knock it up the spindle , ARC do wedges http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Chucks/Wedges-Drifts/Chuck-Removal-Wedges---NEW/JT2-Chuck-Removal-Wedges-Pair .

[raynerd]

Stuart, the spindle is chocked up by wood but the steel plate is protecting the bed.

Those wedges look just the job!

Chipenter - Correct me if I`m wrong but I don`t think the brass bar could be locking up the spindle....it must have been narrow enough to "slip" or be hammered into the threads of the facemill and so it can`t have expanded in the spindle. I might be wrong....I`ve mucked up with this so far!

I might wait now and get some wedges. The spindle takes a 3MT but your link is to JT2 so I presume I`ll need the JT-3 wedges.
Thanks for the link.

Chris

[Anzaniste]

ARC better value than MSC and they give the dimensions.   
Ther suggest the j3 wedge may be too wide for a 2mt..

[raynerd]

Anzaniste - Cheers mate... I didn`t see the dimensions page: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Chucks/Wedges-Drifts

I`ll have to go home and see what the diameter is around the top end of the exposed 3MT. I`ve only got about 2.5mm to get a wedge in!

I`ve just spoken to someone who mentioned a ball joint splitter may do the job but I expect it`ll be too widge to get into the gap!

Thanks for the help so far. I wish the brass bar wasn`t in... I just presumed if I hit hard enough it WOULD free!

Chris

[lordedmond]

Stuart, the spindle is chocked up by wood but the steel plate is protecting the bed.

Those wedges look just the job!

Chipenter - Correct me if I`m wrong but I don`t think the brass bar could be locking up the spindle....it must have been narrow enough to "slip" or be hammered into the threads of the facemill and so it can`t have expanded in the spindle. I might be wrong....I`ve mucked up with this so far!

I might wait now and get some wedges. The spindle takes a 3MT but your link is to JT2 so I presume I`ll need the JT-3 wedges.
Thanks for the link.

Chris

that wood will be absorbing the shock load , Dave has the correct way in his COC
if you need to hit it then use a small club hammer and hit though it not at it , do it like you mean to , the bearings are not liable to get damaged ( but they are not that expensive for this class of machine ) think of the hammer a car wheel bearing takes when you hit a pot hole


Stuart

[lordedmond]

another thought

do you know anyone who has a bearing puller set , you could use the bearing backing plate ( two parts that are like letter C and have a taper on them ) with two long bolts to clamp them up

They are standard parts in a bearing puller set


that would wedge in your gap just nice as I have just checked mine

by aware as other have said when it come free have some padding on the bed
Stuart

[Noitoen]

If the face mill can be removed from the support shank, you could use an "Impact bearing puller" similar to this http://www.gedoretools.co.uk/internal-extractors/8016070-gedore-8016070-1-35-1-impact-bearing-puller-230-mm-200-g-4036976105551.html and before pulling it, use a CO2 fire extinguisher to cool the shank a bit.

[kayz1]

Chriss, i have a split bearing puller if you want to nip across to Holywell over the weekend mate.
  Lyn.

[chipenter]

Sorry about the wrong Size mine is a no2 , the large end of a no3 is 0.938 inches or nearly 28mm , reading about your dilemma made me think I must get some wedges .

[raynerd]

 

Dropped the sucker this evening! 

Thanks to everyone for comments and the links to the other thread. Kayz1 also thanks for the offer of borrowing one, I appreciate it!

I made up some wedges but they weren't so pretty as I had no milling machine to make them! I forced them in with a g-clamp and plates on each side and a little gutted not to hear it drop free. Anyway, gave the brass bar a gentle tap with a hammer and it fell right out. You won't understand how pleased I was!

Cheers guys   

I admit...I do now have a brass bar stuck in the facemill!! Not looked into removing that yet but I'm sure if I file a flat on it I'll be able to unscrew it.....maybe!

Chris

[chipenter]

The brass bar can't be far from the start of the taper , I would knock it down and cut the top of if it won't go through , the bar that is .

[Stilldrillin]

Nice one Chris! 

"I love it, when a plan comes together"...... 

David D

[awemawson]

Good to hear it's out - hope there's not too much damage done

[andyf]

I'm sure the brass bar will come out with a vice, a Mole/Vise Grip wrench, and a pull and wriggle.

Andy.

[vtsteam]

Congrats! It's a good feeling, I know. Thank goodness for a pair of wedges.

As I understand it the facemill is out of the mill spindle itself and the brass bar is also out and stuck in the threads of the facemill. Unscrewing would seem to be the the way to go in that case..

[Anzaniste]

Phew!