Author Topic: Your cutter grinding setup?  (Read 18364 times)

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Your cutter grinding setup?
« on: December 22, 2012, 06:07:13 PM »
Hi Guys

I`ve been enjoying engineering for nearly 4 years now and I`ve upgraded, downgraded and played around with different machines throughout all the years. I guess that is part of the enjoyment when doing this for a hobby with limited budget. However, one thing I`ve never upgraded or even really looked into in great detail, is my cutter grinding setup. Other than a selection of hand oil stones and watchmakers slips, I use a cheap bench grinder with original stones and original simple metal rest:  http://tinyurl.com/d37k9d2

I`ve considered making a rest similar to the rest shown in one of the workshop series editions:
http://www.steves-workshop.co.uk/tools/grindingrest/grindingrest.htm

and a little more effort and expense would be something like the Warden MK3 kit sold by Hemminway:
http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Worden_Mk3_Tool___Cutter_Grinder.html


Although I currently hand grind any of my tools, I have often been faced with situations where it would have been good to offer the tool to be ground with a bit more precision.

I`m currently out of my workshop I expect for a few weeks at minimum and so I write this out of interest to read your responses and way up my options. What grinding setups do you guys have and what does your setup allow you to do? A drill fixture would be a real bonus as I have a pan full that could do with touching up. I`ve also seen the Clarke cutter grinder setups for a decent price on ebay but I expect they would be a bit OTT for my needs but then maybe a worthy addition!

 :worthless:

Chris



Offline awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8968
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2012, 06:54:38 PM »
You need to decide what sort of tools you wish to sharpen. Lathe tools are relatively straightforwards, as you only need to set up one flat angle at a time. However if it is milling cutters that's a whole new ball game.

Simple guides on your cheap grinder will be fine for lathe tools so long as you have eliminated the wheel wobble that seems to accompany most of them (usually cured by making decent cheeks for the wheel with correct dishing and blotting paper washers)

However for endmills for instance you need a way of indexing the cutter (either with a tooth rest or indexing fixture) to sharpen the end teeth.

John S under the guise of Mary Poppins Bag on ebay sells a very good CD compilation of tool & cutter grinding machine instructions which will provide a wealth of background.

I personally use a Quorn for the smaller stuff, and a Clarkson for the bigger items, but this may be out of your budget. There is a chap advertising an end mill sharpening service on Home Workshop in aid of a hospital charity at a very reasonable rate.

Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 03:07:40 AM »
awemawson - thank you for your reply. I have seen the sharpening service but to be honest like most things I do, I suppose the enjoyment is in the ability to do it myself. I`ve also read similar threads on different forums where people have advised that for the price, second hand cutters can be purchased at such a price that it is quicker and easier to buy new ones and bin dull cutters!

In all honesty, if I could sharpen lathe tools, drill ends and touch up end mills then I`d be happy. However, I believe the extra money for the clarkson and quorn also allow a little amount of surface grinding to be carried out as well as a majority of other functions which I`d definately like to learn to use as time goes by. The size of the quorn also is amazing for my small workshop - in which I have a little workbench space but very very little floor standing space.

To be honest, I`m just interested to see what other people use. Budget isn`t really a thought  at this stage. One thing I am learning is to buy once and buy what I want. Even if it means waiting 6 months to save up. The only thing I would say is that I have 1001 projects and so I`m not totally sure I`d want too much of an intensive project - another reason something like a Mk1 clarkson interests me. However, perhaps this would be too much for my simple needs.

I expect the Quorn setups go for quite a high price.

Interested to hear what others are using. I`ve also seen a few setups where people have made a rest and converted a cheapo grinder like I`ve got to accept a diamond wheel.

Chris

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 03:31:36 AM »
Also really enjoyed Chuck's homemade cutter over on another forum. Video here: 

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 04:02:14 AM »
John S under the guise of Mary Poppins Bag on ebay sells ............


Wow!!!! now there's a revelation!!

I've often seen items for sale from that seller but never thought in a million years it would be John..
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Fergus OMore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Country: england
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 04:47:36 AM »
Might I step in, please?

I made up a Quorn years ago. Oddly, I made up a Kennet and a Stent( got rid of the latter) and then started on a new Stent. This time, I bought only the base casting and a few bits as the rest would come out of £3 block of Meehanite. OK, then a battered Clarkson came up for sale and it went into the back of my car for a £100. I couldn't even move the pedestal- so it was left.
So I had a Clarkie but minus the accessories and apart from buying a couple of wheels, the rest came from B and Q in the form of 50mm square  best pine and a few nuts and bolts from Wilkinsons( the universal provider) I then got a swop for a heap of Clarkson goodies. All very rusty, all ancient but- they worked. It then saw a local ad for a Stent and it went into the back of my car for a cool £100. I was in a hurry- it turned out to be fabricated one. At £100, I'd won on a 2880rpm motor and spindle!
So I've been 'around the block' a bit.

So with limited time, I would head for something far simpler than any of these. If a Clarkie came up for a ton- fine. Go for it. Now, I would probably put something up using a £20  6" Double ended grinder- full of Eastern Promise- and put a pair of decent white wheels on it.
Despite all the brou hah of punters who haven't done it but want to talk, there is probably only about three angles to grind. Each one could come out of plywood and the bases similarly.

What everyone seems to miss is that all that a lathe tool needs to have sharp is a cutting land of  oly a little more than the depth of cut. Having a honed tool which is all of half an inch is rubbish and quite useless.

Thus ended the First Lesson :wack:

Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 07:47:34 AM »
Hi,

I went the Clarkson route, I bought one that had only centres and have been making tooling slowly ever since. The link below is to a site that has a lot of Clarkson information. Although this is not mine, photos of my tooling are included in "Home-made parts and modifications by Clarkson owners" a with the original sources quoted (Steve has edited my stuff a little). You will also find Clarkson manuals plans of basic tooling etc

http://www.bedroom-workshop.com/index.htm

Congratulations for your new born son! Seasons greetings, Matthew

Offline mastermaker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 11:25:55 AM »
Rotary vice base, crappy angle-vice that came with my rf30 clone, spin indexer on top of that and a diamond grinding wheel on a home made arbor in the mill spindle.....................

One of these days I'll get around to making an adjustable finger so that I can sharpen helix's and all of this is usually just something I cobble together for the occasion, I have a sherline z-axis and making a dedicated tool grinder with the addition of a x-y vice is on my to-do list.

Offline rotorhead

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Country: england
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 11:36:25 AM »
Hi Lads,

Mathew has pointed to Steve's Bedroom-Workshop, under my 1st name Bernard, you'll see a few mods I made to my MkI Clarkie.

Chris or Bernard
Chris
Sunny Scunny,
North Lincolnshire.

Rob.Wilson

  • Guest
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2012, 03:04:45 PM »
Just using a 6" bench grinder ,I have looked at all the plans to build a shop made TCG ,but come to realize I havent the time to build one , so I am looking to pick up a Clarkson TCG  next year ,as i have a lot of HZ  cutters that need a sharpen  . I have the Clarkson TCG vice thats a start .  :palm:


Welcome to Madmodder mastermaker  :wave:

Rob

Offline mastermaker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2012, 01:34:39 PM »
I'm cleaning up my workshop so no pictures but I might make a separate thread once I get around to making it into a dedicated T&C grinder.
(and 101 other projects including a ball turner, indexing sub table, pseudo palmgren angle vice from a toolmaker vice and and and  :proj:).

Offline Meldonmech

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 06:28:20 AM »
Hi Chris
              I have built both the Stent and the Quorn both very interesting and challenging projects, however I only use them about once a year to sharpen my milling cutters. I have two main sharpening devices the drill sharpening jig and the single point tool sharpening rest, both connected to separate double wheel grinders and instantly available.
              I have posted my Drill Grinding Jig on this forum today, and tool grinding rest will be ready for posting in February.
 It is made from castings but can easily be fabricated from steel sections.

                                                               Cheers David

Offline S. Heslop

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1154
  • Country: gb
  • Newcastle Upon Tyne
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2013, 06:35:42 AM »
I've got the exact same cheap B&Q grinder as you. It's still got the original wheels, wobble and all, and never dressed once since I bought it a few years back. I'm a big believer in the "buy the cheapest tool you can find and use it till it breaks before deciding if or how you want to replace it" method, and the cheap grinder has suited my needs so far. I'd like to make a sturdier rest for it some day but first i'd like to make a stand so it stops making a mess of my bench.

Offline hanermo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 03:43:51 PM »
Hi guys .. first post on this group, known as "hanermo" on mach, diycnc, etc etc

I am now engaged in the making of a commercial production quality T&C grinder.
Steel box to hold it.
The heart is a surface plate, 635x400x100.
Linear guides all around, hiwin 30 mm, 32 mm ball screws, servos.

I got the surface plate this week from England (Im in Barcelona, Spain), and should finalise the design next week.
The head will be on a separate box, with 500 mm vertical movement.

To start with, I am using a jobshop quality 200 mm "basic" grinder from abratools, a chicom 30 kg/900 W tool.
Head with structure will be about 150 kg.
The head will hang above the grinder, in its own steel jig & structure.
Again, 30 mm linear giudes and 32 mm ballscrew.
The head mount, a torsion box, will be solid 50x50 mm billet F1 tool steel (a basic cheap tool steel available in spain).


The table with structure will likely be about 200 kg.

I plan to put some quality wheels on it, dress them, and try surface grinding.
I will use chinese Ac brushless servos.
Mach3.

Also fully manual controls.
And mount a series of accessories to this, lights, microscopes, 1 micron glass scale dro on all axis etc.

I hope to make an autoloader to change tools, parts, fixtures, heads.
I expect to get better than 2 micron resolution, and better than +/- 2 micron repetability.
On my lathe, I got 1 micron, so this is very doable.

For fine adjustment, I will use hardened and heat treated grade 12.9 screws, 12 mm diameter, at 0.5 mm rise on thread.
The charts say they have 12 tons failure, so it shoud be rigid ;(
Have bought the special dies, now waiting for them.

I may lap the threads, need to make a lap jig first for my little minilathe.
And then make a brass lap, with a jig to bias against left or right threads.
This is supposedly good to better than 0.5 microns.

Do you guys insert pics inline or first upload them somewhere ?
So far, I still need to finalise some design stuff, and can then got get the steel bits.

I want to start making, but am being patient as its much easier to readjust stuff on the PC.
when its done, it can make inserts automatically ;)



Offline rowbare

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 38
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2013, 12:11:32 PM »
I am sure I am not alone in saying we would love to see pictures of your builds.

bob

Offline mhh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Country: dk
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 01:07:24 PM »
What you really need is a Astra AR-5 Elite or Gema  :D (Sorry! I just love to show my little beauty!  :D)

In my opinion you should go for the Worden Mk3, I have looked at it several times and it seems like a nice little grinding setup, suitable for most needs.

However! If you have the time and want to, go for the Quorn!Such a nice project!

Just my few words! Good luck!  :beer:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:25:22 AM by dsquire »

Offline mhh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Country: dk
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2013, 12:08:47 AM »
It has come to my attention that my imagesize may be a tad to big! I apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused. If I knew how to alter the post I would.   

Offline dsquire

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2275
  • Country: ca
  • Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2013, 12:30:44 AM »
mhh

I fixed the image size for you. There were 52 views before so just add that on to whatever the new views are for the new total.  :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don
Good, better, best.
Never let it rest,
'til your good is better,
and your better best

Offline mhh

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Country: dk
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2013, 12:57:07 AM »
Thank you Don!  :D

Offline Metalman

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2013, 05:33:55 PM »
If you do not have room to house a Clarkson Chris, or time to make a Quorn, Worden, Kennet or Stent, then you may find either of my two grinding rest worth considering. They are widely made and  mentioned on the various forums and no doubt on this one also, though I have not located it here.

Perhaps in that case I can add some links to them.

Advanced Rest http://www.homews.co.uk/page145.html

Basic   http://www.homews.co.uk/page146.html                             

Using either http://www.homews.co.uk/page224.html                           

There are a number of other pages that deal with using the rests which are detailed on the site index. If you are not familier with my site then the index can be found here

Index http://www.homews.co.uk/page463.html 

There are also details for modifying a standard off hand grinder to take cup and saucer wheels

Modified Grinder  http://www.homews.co.uk/page225.html

The designs for the rests and grinder were originally published in MEW and are now included in two of my books, details from two of the above links.

However, having mentioned  my books it may be appropriate to explain that four of them are now being published in the United States with different front covers and titles. If you have any of my books and see some non Workshop Practice Series books published by me, do check before purchasing as you may end up with two virtually identical books. Of course, if the reader lives in the US then they are obviously the ones to purchase. This is all detailed here

Book details  http://www.homews.co.uk/page12.html  

Harold Hall                 

Offline Arbalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
  • Country: gb
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2013, 06:23:58 AM »
The subject of tool grinding comes up regularly and is a cause of frustration to many.
The cost of buying a cutter grinder is prohibitive for many, as is spending several months making one from scratch. The worst part for me is that I think I have most of what I need it's just filling in the missing pieces! For example, I bought a set of ER32 collets and chuck for my lathe and have since bought several other fixtures that use the collets. This alone negates the need to spend time and effort making tool holders described in some available literature. Given the cost of these parts and how useful they are I guess many folks own ER collets and holders of some description? I also own a spin indexer which could also be useful but expect less folks to have one of these. Next up is of course the grinder. I have, like most folks a double ended grinder but also use a belt sander for sharpening lathe and woodworking tools. I can't help thinking that if I bought a cheap milling table I'd be in business bar making a few simple jigs, I just can't seem to visualise the missing bits!  :doh:

I was thinking of one of the two red tables on this page.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Work-Tables
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 06:48:38 AM by Arbalist »

Offline DICKEYBIRD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Country: us
  • Collierville, TN ya'll
Re: Your cutter grinding setup?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2013, 02:22:42 PM »
Here's a rig I cobbled up some years back to sharpen the ends of endmills using one of those cheap 5C fixtures that sets the proper angles when used with a surface grinder.

It did the job it was intended to do but while I was saving me pennies for a CBN wheel, a couple CNC projects got in the way and I only sharpened a few endmills with it.  I used it for a couple other wacky setups with a a 5C spindexer but it usually sits there doing nuthin'.  Old link with more details:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/28945-Poor-man-s-tool-grinder?highlight=POOR+MAN%27S





5C fixture gizmo:

Milton in Tennesee

"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."