Gallery, Projects and General > How do I??

Rust removal, short term storage, paintting and lubricating

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PekkaNF: That just about should sum up my question. :lol: Backdrop: I bought old, but pretty good looking Cincinnati no.2 tool and cutter grinder http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,8159.msg87804.html#msg87804 I'm not very sure about the condition of the machine itself, it's still 30 km off my house. But it looks good and I have lugged home all acessories it had. Some accessories are hardly used, some are shot and some are missing. I'm trying to sort them out and info forum members have sent me (and the mixed bag of files from Marry Popkins bag) has been very usefull. I'm cleaning up the grit and gunk and if there is intrest I could start a thread about this, but I claim no expertice on restoration. Cut into latest sceene: I have tried rust removal with different methods. It now appears that the light surface rust / gunk removal with household chemicals for iron metals is: 1) Pre-wash the car prewash / rim spray. Duration of soak is for a few minutes to something like 10/15 min. I have used stiff nylon bruch to remove the gunk. This seems to remove most of the grease. There must be better detergent? Some degreasers I have tried smell pretty bad. On the other hand this method catches major part of the waste on the newspaper at the bottom of the bucket and it is easily removed with all the debris / grease. Whole lot easier to deal with semi solid waste that liquid. 2) Dunk into car wash / water mixture according to the instructions. It looks that dish detergent (Fairy lemon) is equally effective. I soak the parts pretty well and long in warm water + finally a light brushing. 3) Dunk into phosphoric acid (1-3%, I use cofeemaker descaler) or citric acid in water. Warm water seems to help more that higher concentration of the accid? Until parts looks "right". Some larger parts seem to take hours to overnight. 4) I feel that I have to neuralize the mild accid coctail. I use drain cleaner (Liquid plumber?), it seems to have 10% of caustic soda lye PH 13.5. I have diluted it somewhere in the 0.5 - 1%, and leave iron pars there for a 10 mins or so to wait for the final rinse. 5) The final wash / rinse 6) Drying 7) I remove remaining rust and residue with a quick application of Mirka Mirlon VF abrassive sponge. This really should not abrade anything, but I make sure not to rub any more than strictly necessary. I don't use power tools or sanding papers or such. 8) Then I should prepare them into interim storage. QUESTIONS: A) How should I rust proof the parts that are not goining to be painted? I'm soakking them in lamp oil to get rid of the residual water, then drying and leave them like that. These parts are going to be in the gringn machine I don't want to use too much lubricant to collect any grit. B) How should I rust proof until summer the parts that are going to be paintted? Or I just dry them well and stuff them under couch and hope that my wife won't spot them? This procedure soulds longwinded, but I have groups of square paintters buckets and I have one liquid in each. I get awfull amount of grit out on some parts, but I usually save them last and use liquids first for cleanest parts. Comment? I just got small ultrasonic cleaner and bought can type soda blaster, that should clean screws, nuts and small complicated parts too. Any interest on this topic? I don't mind thread hijack. Pekka

Lew_Merrick_PE: Pekka, If you are using common household strength acids, then a baking soda dip or a wash-off with old fashioned lye soap should be sufficient to neutralize them.  Drain cleaner (potassium lye or sodium lye) can be as bad for your parts as acid.  All you need to do is neutralize the acid. The approaches I use to keep iron or steel unrusted in my shop are: (A) clean and wax steel using a good wooden floor wax; (B) oil the steel using WD-40 type oil (understanding that it has a small percentage of shellac in it), wrap with kitchen plastic wrap, and store in well-closed plastic bags; or (C) treat with Naval Jelly (i.e. thickened phosphoric acid) and wrap in kitchen plastic wrap. The "A" approach is relatively neat and I have bar stock sitting in my rack dating to the mid-1990's that is bright and unrusted here in western Washington State where the standing joke is, We don't tan, we rust!  The wax comes off with most solvents (IPA is common, but I have acetone in industrial lot drums). The "B" approach is good for small or complex shape parts.  A dip in an acetone solution followed by a good air-hose clean gets rid of the coating oil.  I use this approach for shipping parts to minimize packaging issues. The "C" approach was what I was taught as an apprentice.  It works reasonably well, but I find that waxing ("A") works better. I hope this helps.

PekkaNF: Thank you very much. The acid I use contains 5-10% of phosphorous acid (I hope I got the name right) and about 5% of citric acid. I dilute it to about 3% (volume), but for some more delicate and only lightly rusted parts I aim about half of it. I have also tried about 2-3% of citric acid solution and one common vinegar based cocktail (vinegar, aluminium foil, detergent). All seems to work, but a little differently. I was tryingt to neutralize the acid, but I'm glueless about the actual process. I noticed that even after thorough wash and oiling some parts started to turn grey in few days. I'm sorry to pester further, but how to make this neutralizing solution out off baking soda? It's probably not very exact science, but I need a starting point. The drain cleaning solution claims to have pretty consistent 10% of NaOH, after dilution I should have pretty close 0,7% NaOH and after few rinses somewhat weaker. This didn't make things worse, but I'm not sure if I'm anywhere close. Your requirement for rust proofing looks pretty close what it can be here at times....I'll choose your item "(B) oil the steel using WD-40 type oil ". Anyways it's pretty much only product on your list I have a change finding exactly same. I run some parts trough ultrasonic cleaner and had some success. Industrial cleaning fluid that cost almost half of what I paid for the unit seems to work pretty good. The unit is small (2 litre capacity, 70W transducer, 80W heater) but it seems to clean complicated parts better and easier that other methods. 100 mm pratt & burnerd chuck is under works. First It didn't even move, but now it looks perfectly salvable. PekkaNF

andyf: Hi Pekka, As Lew suggested, one very safe way to neutralise acid is to use a solution of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or washing soda (sodium carbonate), which is cheaper if you need to mix up a buckeful and seems to dissolve more easily. Without getting into too much chemistry, either will combine with the acid residue and give off carbon dioxide while turning the acid into sodium phosphate or sodium citrate. Both are used as food additives. So are sodium bicarbonate, sodium carbonate and citric acid (think of citrus fruit like lemons). There's a tiny bit of phosphoric acid in Coca Cola.  So, they are all safe, though I shouldn't like to drink phosphoric acid any stronger than in Coke. Even in Coke, it is said to attack your teeth. Andy

Pete W.: Hi there, all, A good method I use to get rid of residual dampness is to apply alcohol (known as 'methylated spirits' in the UK).  Water and alcohol mix, the posh name for the resultant mixture is 'azeotrope'. The point is that the azeotrope is volatile, it evaporates, thus getting rid of the water.  If you try this, remember that alcohol is inflammable so there's a fire risk - do it out of doors and away from naked flames. I've used this method to dry a paint brush after using a water-based paint brush cleaner when I wanted to use the same brush for a different paint without waiting.  I've also used the same procedure to get rid of residual fresh water after washing a flooded wristwatch movement to get rid of the sea water.

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