Rust removal, short term storage, paintting and lubricating

[PekkaNF]

That just about should sum up my question.

Backdrop:
I bought old, but pretty good looking Cincinnati no.2 tool and cutter grinder
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,8159.msg87804.html#msg87804

I'm not very sure about the condition of the machine itself, it's still 30 km off my house. But it looks good and I have lugged home all acessories it had. Some accessories are hardly used, some are shot and some are missing.

I'm trying to sort them out and info forum members have sent me (and the mixed bag of files from Marry Popkins bag) has been very usefull.

I'm cleaning up the grit and gunk and if there is intrest I could start a thread about this, but I claim no expertice on restoration.



Cut into latest sceene:
I have tried rust removal with different methods. It now appears that the light surface rust / gunk removal with household chemicals for iron metals is:

1) Pre-wash the car prewash / rim spray. Duration of soak is for a few minutes to something like 10/15 min. I have used stiff nylon bruch to remove the gunk. This seems to remove most of the grease.

There must be better detergent? Some degreasers I have tried smell pretty bad. On the other hand this method catches major part of the waste on the newspaper at the bottom of the bucket and it is easily removed with all the debris / grease. Whole lot easier to deal with semi solid waste that liquid.

2) Dunk into car wash / water mixture according to the instructions. It looks that dish detergent (Fairy lemon) is equally effective. I soak the parts pretty well and long in warm water + finally a light brushing.

3) Dunk into phosphoric acid (1-3%, I use cofeemaker descaler) or citric acid in water. Warm water seems to help more that higher concentration of the accid? Until parts looks "right". Some larger parts seem to take hours to overnight.

4) I feel that I have to neuralize the mild accid coctail. I use drain cleaner (Liquid plumber?), it seems to have 10% of caustic soda lye PH 13.5. I have diluted it somewhere in the 0.5 - 1%, and leave iron pars there for a 10 mins or so to wait for the final rinse.

5) The final wash / rinse

6) Drying

7) I remove remaining rust and residue with a quick application of Mirka Mirlon VF abrassive sponge. This really should not abrade anything, but I make sure not to rub any more than strictly necessary. I don't use power tools or sanding papers or such.

8) Then I should prepare them into interim storage.

QUESTIONS:

A) How should I rust proof the parts that are not goining to be painted?
I'm soakking them in lamp oil to get rid of the residual water, then drying and leave them like that. These parts are going to be in the gringn machine I don't want to use too much lubricant to collect any grit.

B) How should I rust proof until summer the parts that are going to be paintted? Or I just dry them well and stuff them under couch and hope that my wife won't spot them?

This procedure soulds longwinded, but I have groups of square paintters buckets and I have one liquid in each. I get awfull amount of grit out on some parts, but I usually save them last and use liquids first for cleanest parts.

Comment?

I just got small ultrasonic cleaner and bought can type soda blaster, that should clean screws, nuts and small complicated parts too.

Any interest on this topic? I don't mind thread hijack.

Pekka

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Pekka,

If you are using common household strength acids, then a baking soda dip or a wash-off with old fashioned lye soap should be sufficient to neutralize them.  Drain cleaner (potassium lye or sodium lye) can be as bad for your parts as acid.  All you need to do is neutralize the acid.

The approaches I use to keep iron or steel unrusted in my shop are: (A) clean and wax steel using a good wooden floor wax; (B) oil the steel using WD-40 type oil (understanding that it has a small percentage of shellac in it), wrap with kitchen plastic wrap, and store in well-closed plastic bags; or (C) treat with Naval Jelly (i.e. thickened phosphoric acid) and wrap in kitchen plastic wrap.

The "A" approach is relatively neat and I have bar stock sitting in my rack dating to the mid-1990's that is bright and unrusted here in western Washington State where the standing joke is, We don't tan, we rust!  The wax comes off with most solvents (IPA is common, but I have acetone in industrial lot drums).

The "B" approach is good for small or complex shape parts.  A dip in an acetone solution followed by a good air-hose clean gets rid of the coating oil.  I use this approach for shipping parts to minimize packaging issues.

The "C" approach was what I was taught as an apprentice.  It works reasonably well, but I find that waxing ("A") works better.

I hope this helps.

[PekkaNF]

Thank you very much.

The acid I use contains 5-10% of phosphorous acid (I hope I got the name right) and about 5% of citric acid. I dilute it to about 3% (volume), but for some more delicate and only lightly rusted parts I aim about half of it. I have also tried about 2-3% of citric acid solution and one common vinegar based cocktail (vinegar, aluminium foil, detergent). All seems to work, but a little differently.

I was tryingt to neutralize the acid, but I'm glueless about the actual process. I noticed that even after thorough wash and oiling some parts started to turn grey in few days.

I'm sorry to pester further, but how to make this neutralizing solution out off baking soda? It's probably not very exact science, but I need a starting point. The drain cleaning solution claims to have pretty consistent 10% of NaOH, after dilution I should have pretty close 0,7% NaOH and after few rinses somewhat weaker. This didn't make things worse, but I'm not sure if I'm anywhere close.

Your requirement for rust proofing looks pretty close what it can be here at times....I'll choose your item "(B) oil the steel using WD-40 type oil ". Anyways it's pretty much only product on your list I have a change finding exactly same.

I run some parts trough ultrasonic cleaner and had some success. Industrial cleaning fluid that cost almost half of what I paid for the unit seems to work pretty good. The unit is small (2 litre capacity, 70W transducer, 80W heater) but it seems to clean complicated parts better and easier that other methods.

100 mm pratt & burnerd chuck is under works. First It didn't even move, but now it looks perfectly salvable.

PekkaNF

[andyf]

Hi Pekka,

As Lew suggested, one very safe way to neutralise acid is to use a solution of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or washing soda (sodium carbonate), which is cheaper if you need to mix up a buckeful and seems to dissolve more easily. Without getting into too much chemistry, either will combine with the acid residue and give off carbon dioxide while turning the acid into sodium phosphate or sodium citrate. Both are used as food additives. So are sodium bicarbonate, sodium carbonate and citric acid (think of citrus fruit like lemons). There's a tiny bit of phosphoric acid in Coca Cola.  So, they are all safe, though I shouldn't like to drink phosphoric acid any stronger than in Coke. Even in Coke, it is said to attack your teeth.

Andy

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

A good method I use to get rid of residual dampness is to apply alcohol (known as 'methylated spirits' in the UK).  Water and alcohol mix, the posh name for the resultant mixture is 'azeotrope'.

The point is that the azeotrope is volatile, it evaporates, thus getting rid of the water.  If you try this, remember that alcohol is inflammable so there's a fire risk - do it out of doors and away from naked flames.

I've used this method to dry a paint brush after using a water-based paint brush cleaner when I wanted to use the same brush for a different paint without waiting.  I've also used the same procedure to get rid of residual fresh water after washing a flooded wristwatch movement to get rid of the sea water.

 

[vtsteam]

I'm very interested in how people remove or deal with surface rusting in stored machines. Usually in use I haven't had a problem. But in storage for the last 5 years, many of my tools and machines now show rust. 

I'm most interested i rust removal tips an tricks at this point -- next time I store them I'll douse everything in chain saw oil if need be. I don't care about the mess, at least they won't be harmed.

But I hope never to have to store things again once I build my shop. So rust removal and appropriate lubrication is the main interest at this point.


ps. personally I have found WD-40 to be of little use for rust protection -- and I have never heard that it contains wax, nor noticed any long lasting residue when I've used it. The old Liquid Wrench did seem to do better, and from the grey color I guessed that it probably contained graphite. But LW has completely changed formulas a few years ago, diversified into 4 or 5 products, and I hate the new version's smell. Reminds me of PC Blaster.

Anyway, this is about rust removal, not removing rusted bolts -- which is the stated purpose for the last mentioned products. So post on.....

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Pekka,

Phosphoric acid (most commonly found in Naval Jelly) turns the surface of iron or steel gray-to-black (depending on the specific alloy and heat treatment).  It is supposed to do that.

[PekkaNF]

Hi Pekka,

As Lew suggested, one very safe way to neutralise acid is to use a solution of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or washing soda (sodium carbonate), which is cheaper if you need to mix up a buckeful and seems to dissolve more easily. Without getting into too much chemistry, either will combine with the acid residue and give off carbon dioxide while turning the acid into sodium phosphate or sodium citrate. Both are used as food additives. So are sodium bicarbonate, sodium carbonate and citric acid (think of citrus fruit like lemons). There's a tiny bit of phosphoric acid in Coca Cola.  So, they are all safe, though I shouldn't like to drink phosphoric acid any stronger than in Coke. Even in Coke, it is said to attack your teeth.

Andy

Thank you very much. This clears it up nicely. Sooo...if I need to soda blast part after rust removal with acid, blasting soda probably would neutralize rest of it nicely.....should there be any left after rinse and drying.

Hi there, all,

A good method I use to get rid of residual dampness is to apply alcohol (known as 'methylated spirits' in the UK).  Water and alcohol mix, the posh name for the resultant mixture is 'azeotrope'.

The point is that the azeotrope is volatile, it evaporates, thus getting rid of the water.  If you try this, remember that alcohol is inflammable so there's a fire risk - do it out of doors and away from naked flames.

I've used this method to dry a paint brush after using a water-based paint brush cleaner when I wanted to use the same brush for a different paint without waiting.  I've also used the same procedure to get rid of residual fresh water after washing a flooded wristwatch movement to get rid of the sea water.

That is a very good info. Methylated spirits i.e. Denatured alcohol is very easy to find and I had bottle in hand. That seem to work very well on small parts. I wonder if I could use is for a rinse in ultrasonic cleaner, probably best to do it without heating up the tank. I'm pretty familiar with alcohol, I have some camping stoves...they are quiet, but needs preheating on very cold and if you get any Denatured alcohol on your food or fingers - taste is disgusting.

Some people here complain that WD40 used to better before but lately it has been formulated to smell better and such. But it's still obtainable.

Lew, thank you. I was wondering the color...sometimes it's almost like gun bluing - sometimes more like parkerized. Occasionally really nice color and wonder if I could produce it freshly turned/milled parts.

Pekka

[andyf]

Thank you very much. This clears it up nicely. Sooo...if I need to soda blast part after rust removal with acid, blasting soda probably would neutralize rest of it nicely.....should there be any left after rinse and drying.

I'm not sure what "blasting soda" is, Pekka, but it sounds dangerous! Baking soda or washing soda are what you want. The first can be found in food shops; it is added to cake ingredients to make the cake rise. Washing soda should be found in stores which sell cleaning materials, somewhere near the Persil, Ariel etc.

Everything I mentioned is soluble in water, so rinsing and drying will remove any residue.

Andy

[DMIOM]

Andy,

Sodablasting is just one of the spectrum :   grit/sand blasting  -  bead blasting  -  soda blasting

Using friable bicarb in a blastable form is even kinder than the other media

Dave

[andyf]

Thanks, Dave; I didn't know that. No reason not to use a solution of blasting soda to neutralise the acid. Probably comes much cheaper than in little containers from food shops.

Andy

[vtsteam]

For my own equipment's relatively minor surface rust in spots I wouldn't  want to blast it. Too much equipment and setup, and the need to disassemble and clean up the area afterwards. For a larger project or tool renovation, of course it would make sense. I'm still open to other tips and suggestions, personally -- keep them coming!

I worked on a small patch on the mill ways yesterday with a scraper using very light pressure. Light powder surface rust tends to stand up slightly proud of the surface, so this just leveled it, and pretty much made it disappear. I hit the spot with light oil and wiped it nearly dry with a paper towel. There was just a slight surface discoloration.

Using a scraper had more appeal than an abrasive like sandpaper, which abrades both the good metal around the rust and the rust itself. The scraper just rides on the good metal and removes anything above that. That is with very light pressure. I didn't want to create a concavity with abrasives. I guess abrasives would be okay for non-critical surfaces. But I think a scraper might make sense on machined surfaces.

By the way I mean a sharp machinist scraper, held as for hand scraping, not a paint scraper. Applied with almost no force -- just the weight of the tool itself

[PekkaNF]

Soda blasting should allow part to cleaned without disassembly - that't what I have been reading and told. But I don't know for sure.

I tried firs normal can-type sand blasting gun and baking soda. You can get baking soda in industrial kitchen pagages, but wife bought me two one kilo jars. That was enough to try and clean about half a litre of small parts. There was soda dust everywhere! Lucily I did it outside. Nice thing is that baking soda is much nicer on clothes, teeth and cellphones than blasting sand....but I still wear respirator and glasses. See pictures. That is not a proper soda blasting gun, but I wanted just to try it out. Worked somehow, but spew out soda like there were no tomorrow.

I bought proper soda blasting gun. And a can of soda, but haven't tried it yet. I heard that it is even more critical about moisture removal from pressurized air than sand blasting. Borrowed a pretty good one, but it needs some work.

The can type:
http://nordblasthome.com/en/

Pekka

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

Someone told me, many years ago, that 'an inch of steel makes thirteen inches of rust'.

Maybe some of the modders reading this thread can verify or refute this?  Any chemists or metallurgists here?

Now for the heresy!  If the above is true, then it could be said that rust looks worse than it is.

I don't mean that it's OK to neglect a machine and let it get rusty, rather that a machine that looks far gone can be brought back to a useful level of functionality.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned electrolytic rust removal.  There was quite an extensive thread on the subject on another forum a few months ago.

[clivel]

I have been very impressed with Evapo-Rust
A while back I was given a pile of rusty castings for a pair of Stuarts, a 10V and 10H, they looked absolutely horrible:




And here is the boxbed after a couple hours in Evapo-Rust then a rinse in hot water. It looked like a brand new casting.



Evapo-Rust is easily available in Canada http://www.evaporust.ca/ a web search indicated that it can also be obtained in many other countries.
Clive

[vtsteam]

Hmmmmm, Evapo-Rust....

what the heck is it?

Bah, the MSDS is no help!

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Lew, thank you. I was wondering the color...sometimes it's almost like gun bluing - sometimes more like parkerized. Occasionally really nice color and wonder if I could produce it freshly turned/milled parts.

Parkerizing is a process known as heavy phosphate coating (DOD-P-16232 in the formal American military specification which can be accessed through http://quicksearch.dla.mil/).  Light phosphate coating (which can be accomplished using Naval Jelly) is codified (here in the U.S.) as FED-STD-TT-C-490 (which is somewhat harder to find as we have privatized nearly all the public specifications here in the U.S.).

Does that help?

[PekkaNF]

Lew, thank you. I was wondering the color...sometimes it's almost like gun bluing - sometimes more like parkerized. Occasionally really nice color and wonder if I could produce it freshly turned/milled parts.

Parkerizing is a process known as heavy phosphate coating (DOD-P-16232 in the formal American military specification which can be accessed through http://quicksearch.dla.mil/).  Light phosphate coating (which can be accomplished using Naval Jelly) is codified (here in the U.S.) as FED-STD-TT-C-490 (which is somewhat harder to find as we have privatized nearly all the public specifications here in the U.S.).

Does that help?

Printted the first one. Unusual paper, only 17 pages long...should not take too long to read and digest for further reading. Thank you. That Naval Jelly brought me wrong connotations when I saw it few times....I had nothing to relate into it. But it's more clear now.

Clive, that looks to me just like a normal healthy rust on rough castings and I would not be least alarmed about it. Just a little more and that healty rust would push residue sand out of surface and would make castings more machining friendly

Bought small ultrasound cleaner and detergent. Works, but where I have got myself? Detergent selection seems to be very important and my prior experience does not help here at all. I'm really baffled about the results. I have one litre of industrial/professional cleaning detergent that is intended to clean small parts after machining/handling prior to assembly. It works really well, but at abt. 45€+tax/1l botle, it's pretty pricey and reserved only on special ocassions. Dish washer detergent does not work that good, neither straight lamp oil, more to test and google.

PekkaNF

[vtsteam]

re. simple cleaning:

I don't know if you have them where you live but the citrus oil hand cleaners (non-pumice variety) will do a fantastic job of removing grease and dirt, and even cooked-on varnish from metal surfaces. Just spread a small amount on a metal surface without water and wait a bit before scrubbing with non-abrasive a brush and rinsing. And it's kinder to human skin than other industrial quality de-greasers, for obvious reasons, and smells a lot better too. The particular brand I use here in the US is called "Fast Orange"

[PekkaNF]

re. simple cleaning:

I don't know if you have them where you live but the citrus oil hand cleaners (non-pumice variety) will do a fantastic job of removing grease and dirt, and even cooked-on varnish from metal surfaces. Just spread a small amount on a metal surface without water and wait a bit before scrubbing with non-abrasive a brush and rinsing. And it's kinder to human skin than other industrial quality de-greasers, for obvious reasons, and smells a lot better too. The particular brand I use here in the US is called "Fast Orange"

Oooo we do have Fast Orange and one big pump can sits on the bathroom. I use it clean my hands out of my hobbies and my daughter cleans up nail polish and such. Good to keep in mind for future use.

I tried one glue/sticker remover that is mainly made out of cirtrus oil and mineral oil and it works pretty good, but leaves lotsa oil behind...needs good hot water wash after that. Hmm. Maybe these citrus things would speed up "pre wash"?

Pekka

[vtsteam]

We have a 1957 commercial ten burner gas stove which I restored -- got it free. The stove knobs were brown and all of the chrome trim were brown from cooked on greaase -- years of buidup. I hit all those areas with Fast Orange and reapplied lightly as it dried to keep it working. Within ten minutes all of that grime wiped off and I had shiny chrome everywhere. In fact a lot of what I thought was corrosion and damage to the chrome also came off. The chrome literally looked like new. That stuff is better than oven cleaner -- and a lot less harsh to use inside a house.

[PekkaNF]

Pekka,

Phosphoric acid (most commonly found in Naval Jelly) turns the surface of iron or steel gray-to-black (depending on the specific alloy and heat treatment).  It is supposed to do that.

Thank you. This really gives me some peace of mind. Now I only have to figure out what do with this vice. Swiss cheese does not look appropriate here.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Can't see it here, but someone told not to go overboard with chemicals. I have washed some parts with warm water and soapy detergent.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

I have also been testing ultrasound cleaner, but I'm not very accomplished with this process. Works well on small parts that are difficult to clean othervice. Screws and such a little problematic, but worked remarkably well on seized grinding wheel holders.

One polution control valve was gunkked up my wife's car and threw an error code. Used industrial cleaner and then removed water with denturated alcohol (Thanks Pete W!) to clear it. 5 mins of washing and 1 mins of rinsing with denturated alcohol sorted it out. It's working again. Weird thing is that it looked very dirty inside out, but practically new after such a short cleaning.

Does anybody knows a good primer/DIY instruction about ultrasonic cleaner use and detergents?


Pekka

[vtsteam]

Now I only have to figure out what do with this vice. Swiss cheese does not look appropriate here.

Pekka

Well you could fill the craters in with pot metal, solder, braze, or an epoxy like JB Weld.

Or you could mill the whole top down say 3mm and laminate a 4mm piece of steel back in place using a suitable epoxy. Then mill the top surface true and to proper thickness.

[PekkaNF]

Now I only have to figure out what do with this vice. Swiss cheese does not look appropriate here.

Pekka

Well you could fill the craters in with pot metal, solder, braze, or an epoxy like JB Weld.

Or you could mill the whole top down say 3mm and laminate a 4mm piece of steel back in place using a suitable epoxy. Then mill the top surface true and to proper thickness.

I don't think I want to reduce thickness of the top - it is in tensile load and I believe that is not very ideal for cast iron to start with. My first instict was cast iron stick welding....but the heat is an issue and generally I don't have too good understanding on cast iron welding. Filling epoxy could be the way to go, it really does not fix anything, but should make it easier to clean.

Pity it was drilled...It probably was put into pilar dril, because the base did not have keys/screws in it...have to find repalcement for them - imperial standard I think.

One grinding wheel holder was so badly gunked up it didn't come apart, bit oil, bit soakking, bit soft hammer, but to remove all grud took so long time that bluing was gone. That one too needs some attention.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

One grinding wheel holder was so badly gunked up it didn't come apart, bit oil, bit soakking, bit soft hammer, but to remove all grud took so long time that bluing was gone. That one too needs some attention.

Old tractors sitting unused in fields, seized, can usually be restored if you are patient and use kerosene (paraffin) to let the parts soak. Just about anything can be loosened up if left in a jar of kerosene for a period of time. Maybe it will take a month, but it will come loose. Rust seized pistons are loosened this way -- kerosene is poured into the cylinder and kept full for a month, or more -- when it begins to leak down through the rings you can knock the piston out through the bore using a piece of wood as a drift.

[PekkaNF]

One item crossed on my list:
Filled the drilled face with Plastic Padding Chemical metal. Grease removing, soda blasting, fill, file and ready. Considered filling it with auto body lead or some metal, but I'm trying this firs.

Also tried soda blasting to a larger piece that was not disassembled....cleans really nice, but does not remove rust. Need a bigger compressor. Funny thing is that this expensive soda blasting can works whole lot better that sand blasting can on soda....there must be a small difference on the structure? It is also whole lot economical...very much less soda is blown, but it cleans better!

PekkaNF