Author Topic: Elbow Engine  (Read 81987 times)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2009, 01:45:47 PM »
Shrinking Rims onto Hubs

Decided to get all scientific and calculate the expansion of the Rims.

At first I calculated the expansion on a temp change of 300°C at this point my boss started to get interested in what I was doing (usually a bad sign) but no, when I explained she said why not put it in the oven, a quick check and the oven would go up to 250°C then she floored me and suggested I put the hub in the freezer that would give at least a temp difference of 260°C, another quick calculation and that would give a size difference of at least 0.3mm (0.012”).  As a rough rule of thumb for any of you Chaps who want to try this, temp difference of 250° will give an increase in size of about 3%.


I could have used high strength Loctite but hay where the fun in that



Elbows

I bought four 12” length of ground ¼” Ø mild steel bar I checked them for size with a mic and found that they were bang on size. I then put a ¼ drill down the ends of some brass bar to use has bending handles.

I then parted of 8 lengths of bar 70mm long keeping them all the same length as well as possible.





A quick search of my tool stash came up trumps with this little beauty, I don’t know where it came from but if I see a bit of discarded tool steel on my trips to the scrap yard or any were else I never pass it by.



As I like to work in metric a did a quick sketch of the elbow in mm with the sizes I wanted to work too.

I put a piece of bar in the drill chuck to act as a stop, so that I could zero the machine dials up so that when I’d got the first one done I wouldn’t have to do any more measuring. As I would be winding the tool up and down the grooves I worked off the dial zero for one end and a crayon mark at the other.



To bend the elbows I decided to use the method John had recommended, I set up my little gas torch in a retort stand, heated the elbow in the wasted area to cherry red and bent it roughly square round a short stub of ¼ bar held in the vice. As I was using mild steel I quenched them in water.



Now for the tricky bit getting them square:- Using a 1*2*3 block as a square and holding it up to a strong light I checked each elbow for square-ness, and kept tweaking them with the bending handles until they looked pretty good, I’ll have another go at getting them spot on when I’ve skimmed them to length when I start to assemble the engines.




Cylinder Blocks

I had a piece of Brass bar that was long enough to make all four cylinders from. The end of the bar was centre drilled and with a running centre a light skim was taken off the OD and checked for parallel it was within 0.05mm (good enough). Four pieces just over 1” long was parted off.



Using the back of the chuck as a stop each piece was faced off, the first one was then faced to length, the dials zeroed and the rest faced off to the same length so that they all came out the same.




A check with DTI showed that the chuck was holding them concentric to 0.02mm, as it’s the concentricity of the centre hole with the three cylinders that’s important this is more than good enough. They were then centre drilled roughed drilled 7/32 then letter D drill and finally a ¼” reamer put through with a carrier so that it finds its own centre and cuts dead to size, this gave a lovely sliding fit on the elbows.



Next job was to turn up a mandrel so that the cylinders could be clamped to the rotary table, this was carefully done to ensure a good fit in the cylinder.



That’s all for now I’ll finish off the mandrel and turn up the port blocks over the weekend.







« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:22:48 PM by sbwhart »
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline NickG

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2009, 07:29:18 AM »
Stew, you've been busy!  :jaw:

All going well so far, getting very interesting now!  :smart: might pay off!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2009, 07:51:21 AM »
Stew,

You have very nicely got over the first hurdle of getting the pistons bent. Don't worry about them any more. They can easily  :lol: be squared up when you cut them to length.

You are now venturing on the path of making sure everything is perfectly vertical and exactly on the same PCD.

Your journey into the unknown begins.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2009, 08:26:36 AM »
That's looking very nicely done Stew  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2009, 03:19:20 AM »
Right.... I just re-read the whole thread.... Well I needed to as I apparently missed some of it! :doh:

I did this more than once  :lol:  and I'm now certain that you must be either mad or a genius to take on one of these engines!!!    :ddb: or  :smart:

There may be a happy medium between the two...?  :zap:   But I'm not sure?

Stew you mustn't have had your shots, cause you sure got it bad.....  :proj:  !!!



Seriously.... It's all getting stored..... One day, when I'm feeling particularly bored and stupid, I might just have a go at one of these  :lol:




Really seriously though.... I'm loving this, can't wait to see the test results and the interesting write ups  :thumbup:



Keep on building Stew.....




Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Bernd

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2009, 09:23:32 AM »
Stew,

Brilliant idea of using the 1-2-3 blocks to check squareness. I had thought of perhaps milling a piece of steel using the "X" and "Y" axis of the machine for a square.

Can't wait to see the engine finished and "running".  :ddb: :ddb:

Bernd
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2009, 11:25:46 AM »
Bernd

The idea to use the 1*2*3 blocks is all John's:-  :bow: he's being a great help.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2009, 05:54:20 PM »
Hi Chaps

Will to start with the bad news had a bit of a desaster shrinking the rim on the hub on the second fly wheel. This rim is steel so the first time I tried it wouldn't fit. For the second try I reduced the hub dia by a couple of thou and left the rim in the oven for a good hour, the bits fit but the hub went in twisted I tried correcting it with a  :hammer: and a chunk of wood and ended up cracking the hub,  :doh: ho well I'll just have to make another one at a later date.



Spent a lot of time on my lathe over the last couple of days, trying to turn my week round  :lol: :lol:.

Making all the turned bit before doing more milling work.

Up to know I've more or less followed the drawing but I'm going to change the way of fixing the valve ports to the base, the drawing uses two screws off set from the centre, I'm going to use one screw on the centre line, this will help getting things lined up. All will be clear when I machine up the base how this will work.

I've also chenged the design of the spindle, I've adopted fabricated spindle pins this has a number of advantages, I can use the ground 1/4 bar the threads will screwe up to square shoulders and the length of the pins can be easily adjust to match the length of the cylinders to give the correct amount of end float.




Most of this work is plain turning work, so i've added a few pics of little tricks and kit that I use





Home made depth gauge used to set length for part off usfull when you've got a few to do and want them all the same.



Drill stop again when usfull you'vr got a few to do all the same



Parting tool



Die Holder and split die



Die holder in use with RTP good stuff to tap with especialy stainless



Collection of bits



A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2009, 06:17:43 PM »
Stew,

Be very careful about not using the two screws in the base. It was by using one of the two screws in a slotted hole allowed me to get the engine running. I looked at the single screw method, and came to the conclusion it would not give the correct adjustment required, and was proven right. Also think about fitting o-rings between the bottom control valve and the base. This greatly helps in final adjustment.

Just a suggestion.

John


Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2009, 06:25:37 PM »
Hi John

Thanks for the warning, if it doesn't work out I'll still be able to revert to the two screw method.

I Hope you'll soon be feeling better take it easy.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2009, 08:29:57 PM »
What a shame about the cracked spoke Stew, bet you were gutted.
It looked so well made too  :(

Like your depth ideas btw, I'll have to do some adopting there  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2009, 04:03:01 AM »
Stew,

Be very careful about not using the two screws in the base. It was by using one of the two screws in a slotted hole allowed me to get the engine running. I looked at the single screw method, and came to the conclusion it would not give the correct adjustment required, and was proven right. Also think about fitting o-rings between the bottom control valve and the base. This greatly helps in final adjustment.

Just a suggestion.

John



John

I've been meaning to ask you this question for some time but I keep forgetting when the oportunity arrises.  :doh:

Are the two cylinder block on the same centre line on your engine or are they slightly off set, have you ever measured this ?.

It's something I've pondered about would a slight off set help smooth running.
Just one of my mad theories.  :med:

Cheers

Stew

A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2009, 04:30:10 AM »
Stew,

That is the reason for the adjustment I mentioned. It is almost impossible to get them PERFECTLY lined up in the very beginning.

A couple of microns either way of correct will stop it running. You require both X and Y axis adjustment, about 0.5mm total in both axis, and the adjusting tool is a plastic handled screwdriver and a few hours of patience.

You will also have to wear slippers, to resist the temptation of launching it into orbit with a quick boot lift off. :lol:


Bogs

Offline NickG

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2009, 09:00:20 AM »
Stew,

nightmare about the cracked flywheel hub  :doh: Looks likey you've made good progress though, the more I read about these elbow engines though, the less inclined I am to try and make one!

I have been struck down with a serious case of  :proj: at the moment so not been in the workshop much for the right reasons but I am making slow progress and will get on with the next project soon hopefully!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2009, 04:53:37 PM »
First job in the mill was to put screw slots the screws, this was done by simply screwing the screws into a spare spindle, griping it in a small vice with a V jaw, the slot was put in with a small TC slitting saw.





Next job was to set up for the valve ports, to mount the port to the Rotary Table (RT) a mandrel was turned up symilar to that used to hold the flywheel hub, but this time a 11mm hole was bored to be a nice fit on the valve port. The valve port was bolted to this mandrel with a M5 screw.



To set the RT up the work has to be centred on the RT, to do this the worm was disengauged so that the table would free wheel and the mandrel was clocked and adjusted until it clocked true.




The next job was to centre the table with the mill spindle this again a clock was used but this time it was held in a drill chuck and the spindle rotated the X and Y tables adjusted until it clocked true, and the X and Y table zeroed and the table off set to port position and the tables locked.



This is my crib sheet so that I can do the job methodicaly



These are the tools I used a small drill chuck mounted so that it can be held in my clarson type cutter holder a small centre drill a 1/8 drill and a 1/8 slot drill again in a home made holder.







It was then just a matter of cutting the ports with a little squirt of bog water WD40

Job Done
 :thumbup:

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2009, 06:43:16 AM »
Nice looking job there Stew,

I have some RT work to do soon, could you show how you held the part on the RT again?
I think you had an MT2 arbor in the RT with a thread in the end of it to attach things. Is that right  :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2009, 06:55:35 AM »
Darren

It wasn't a full M2 taper it was just a small stub with a M5 thread, that long screw went into, the Job was fastened to this from the other side again with a M5 screw, I'll try and post some more photos and a Crap O Cad later.

I'm on domestic duties at the moment mucking out and changing the straw in the house.

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2009, 08:22:22 AM »
Hi I hope this makes it a bit clearer I'm just about to set up the table to do the cylinders so I do a more detailed step by step write up.



Basically what I'm doing is making the set up mandrel a lose fit in the M2 taper, just nipping it up with the clamp bolt so that it will move with a tap, clocking it up true, tightening it up, then clamping the RT to the mill. I've probably not bean clear on this if you think about it you can set the job up true on the RT away from the mill you can do it in the next county if you want, as long as is doesn't move in transit.

When you do write up likes this its nice when people ask questions and give you feed back it makes the effort all worth while, so thanks for asking Darren  :thumbup:

Cheers

Stew



A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2009, 09:28:01 AM »
Thanks Stew, all clear now and very helpful for a job I need to do.

BTW, the general silence shouldn't be taken to heart. We are watching and thoroughly enjoying yor progress. much to be learnt here.... :thumbup:

Keep up the good work.... :clap:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2009, 01:30:38 PM »
You`re not alone Stew.......  :wave:

I`m here daily, watching quietly & taking most of it in.  :thumbup:

Wish I could understand how these elbow engines work.
All I have ever seen is a vid or two.  :scratch:

I`m hoping all will be revealed, soon......  :clap:

Your postings are very much appreciated.  :thumbup:

David.

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2009, 04:22:21 PM »
Thanks Darren and David

 :wave:

Cylinders

To drill the bores in the cylinders I’ll again use the rotary table but this time as I want better accuracy, I’ll use the index plates. Rather than getting bogged down trying to explain how the index system works I’ve added a few scans of my table’s instructions.

 



To use an index plate you have to remove the winding handle and replace it with an index plate and a winding handle with an indent. The table has a 90 to 1 ratio (90 turns of the wheel give one rotation of the table) to get the number of turns of the handle you divide 90 by 3 (3 bores required) giving 30 turns as this is a whole number you can use any index plate, as long as you start and finish in the same hole.





Setting up the index plate I’m using a mandrel that’s a lose fit in the table, (see crap o cad above) but this time I will centre the mandrel on the RT away from the mill. You just loosely clamp the mandrel to the RT and with the worm disengaged so that the table free wheels, the mandrel is clocked up and adjusted until it runs true, the clamp in tightened up and the mandrel checked again, if its still OK the table is then clamped on the mill. The mill spindle is then centred to the RT, the x and y tables zeroed, I off set the y table by 5/16 for bore position, both tables were then locked




Each hole is centre drilled then drilled through with 15/64 followed by a letter D drill which is just under
¼ “Ø, the bore is brought to final size with a hand reamer, this ensures that bore is spot on size.




At this stage when you’ve got enough bits it’s always nice to see how it will all fit together. The elbows are only roughly bent square but straight away even with this part assembly you find how important elbow square ness is, the elbows fitted nicely into one cylinder but as soon as you try to assemble them into two the out of square ness locks them up.



I’d better get my boots ready to kick them into touch.

 :bang:  :bang:  :bang:

 :D

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2009, 05:14:12 PM »
Stew,

I honestly wish I could tell you that from now on is easy, but I would be lying.

You have done a very good job so far, so don't rush it at this stage, just take it nice and easy, and you will win.

John

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2009, 08:16:25 PM »
Fair do's Stew..... You're going for this one in a very tidy way!   :thumbup:


I wouldn't even have thought of my index plates..... But then I'd have probably cocked this up!

Reading and learning all the time  :)




Ralph.
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Offline NickG

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2009, 05:02:10 PM »
Stew,

This is looking fantastic,  :bow: I'm so glad I didn't bother with it, I clearly haven't got the skill required and my parts would no doubt have been sat in the carrier bag, along with the swarf and fluf from the tuble dryer right now!  :bang:

As Bogs says, just persevere now, take you're time (I am sure you will)  :smart:  :coffee:  and you will win .. then  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:  :) :D

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline shoey51

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Re: Elbow Engine
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2009, 06:35:30 PM »
great work there looking great :thumbup: