Author Topic: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration  (Read 23361 times)

Offline sdezego

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Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« on: August 07, 2012, 01:28:24 AM »
Hi Folks, USA checking in here.

I'll try not to write a book, but I wanted to formally into myself.  First, I can say that I was truly inspired by Rob Wilson's Cub rebuild :eek: , so that motivated me to post, but don't expect anything of that caliber here :P.

I don't consider myself a "machinist" and don't have 1/8 of the machinery at my fingertips for a lot of what I have seen on this forum, but I have been a Mechanic pretty much all of my life and was a Harley Mechanic/Custom Builder for about 12 years before going on for my MSME.

Enuf of that.  I have been wanting to find a nice lathe to supplement my home shop, and came across a Cub that I could not resist.  Previously, had never even heard of one, but after some research seems I got a bit of a find (especially in the US).

So, after tearing it down, most of the Lathe and gears are mech sound.  Aside from the bushings and 12 years of repainted layers of fascia, it is in spectacular shape.

Here she is as I received her (did receive tail Stock and 3 jaw (not pictured)



Removed the Face plate and saw the build number which matches the Ser# on the Bed Stock






Stripped off the Apron Drive Gearbox and everything looks amazing inside!



Headstock Gears looks equally as nice!



Apron needs new Bushs and a little clean up..




Pulled off the face place and turned it around.  To my surprise:



More to come...

Regards,
Shawn
 

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 01:50:33 AM »
So, the first aspect that I was able to see any noticeable wear was on the Apron Drive pinion as you can see from this pic below.  The Rack seems to have very little wear.



Had to dig out my engineering books from eons ago to determine it is a 20T 18dp gear (a bit if a non-std DP).  I have no current facility to cut a new gear, but I am strongly considering learning and buying an involute cutter.  Problem is finagling it on the Vertical Bridgeport (I told you already I was not a machinist)  :wave:  I do have a friend that has a machine shop, so he may have a Horizontal Mill and indexer, in which case, I may have a go.

In Reality, I don't think it is terrible, but I failed to mention in my intro that I have a serious case of OCD. ...and "since it is apart"...








Offline micktoon

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 04:56:39 AM »
Hi Shawn , nice to see another old machine getting some attention to bring it back to how it should be, so far looks to be good condition so fingers crossed thats a sign you will not find anything too worn out as you continue to get her stripped.  :thumbup:
  I have my Harrison L5 in bits and posting its progress so know what you mean about OCD, once you start its hard not to keep going and next thing you know its all in bits  :lol:
  I will be watching your progress with interest

   Cheers Mick.

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 01:59:52 PM »
Thanks Mick.  Yep, I have already been silently following your thread(s) as well as many others on here.  I was addicted on first click to this forum, so I started reading all of the project threads here :)

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 02:18:33 PM »
Hi Shawn ,,,,,,, seeing your lathe in bits brings back a few memories of my own adventures with a CUB lathe  :palm:

I would have a look on Ebay for a gear cutter and use your BP to make one , no need for a HZ mill , its not as hard as it looks  :dremel:

Rob

Offline Jonny

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 07:25:09 PM »
They certainly dont make them like they used to. No doubt its seen some use and i am amased how good the geared head looks decades on far better than new chinese stuff.

Churchill made some extremely good surface grinders along with Snow. I did work for the other name for 10 years after the buy out.

Look forward to the rebuild.

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2012, 05:17:05 PM »
agreed, which is why I resisted buy a new "repro" for so long..  Took some more pics of the head after I flushed and cleaned the box  :thumbup:

I had some more time, so I proceeded to forge on.  When I bought it, the guy had a few machines and this was one of his more recent acquisitions.  He was moving, so it had to go.  He started to "restore" it, but did not make it very far at all.  He did mention that it was shutting down on high speeds and I witnessed it when I bought it, but it did not concern me.  Thought it seemed as though it might be just the Cap.

Turned out that that is shed's outlets were piss poor at best and the shagged plug and wiring to the motor were causing the issue.  Before I took it apart, I tried it at my house and had no issue.

Now, the orig motor is gone and it was replaced with a Baldor 3/4 hp 1 phase.  Orig appeared to come with a 3 phase 2 speed 1 hp motor.  Initially, I will run the 3/4, but may re-wire it for 220V as opposed to the 110V currently.  I may considering going up to 1Hp if needed, but don't think I will need.

The reason I mention all of this is that I question whether or not he messed with the headstock Timken bearings.  So, I decided to check the End play.  After Flushing the box and checking try, I was unable to detect any end play what so ever  :loco:  So, I adjusted to the ~.0002" per the manual.  The head spindle seems to turn much better by hand now, so this may have been in part "not helping".  I could see on the Lock nut that someone along the way had adjusted it.

Pics, are clickable ;)






Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 07:04:38 PM »
I also stripped it down using some aircraft stripper first, then a wire wheel (used a mask just in case the paint was leaded) assume it was.





Then, I gave it a shot of Ospho (sans the ways) and gave it a day to cure.



I also blasted the Aluminum Head stock cover and used some self etching primer (thus the Army Green) on it since AL can be finicky to have paint stick long term.  I also used primer on the small parts, but for the rest just painted right over the cured Ospho.












Will give it one more coat tomorrow or the next.  Humidity has been through the roof here, so I am not expecting the first coast will dry too quickly.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:08:55 AM by sdezego »

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2012, 12:26:25 AM »
Haven't been slacking...  I have been working in it quite a bit but have run into small snags here and there and am working through them and will post those details along the way.

A lot of Researching and learning.  The main thing is checking accuracy, scraping ways due to more wear near the spindle end than I thought, etc..  I will get to this in more detial later.

So, here are some pics that I have just uploaded.









Have not engraved the dial yet, but at least it looks somewhat presentable...






















Touched on the belt sander after painting.














Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2012, 12:31:46 AM »
Removing the old MT adapter almost got the best of me...  It was practically welded in and you can tell the amount of heat I needed to use to get it out..   :hammer:








Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 09:06:04 PM »
So, as mentioned above, I started working one the carriage.  When I went to install and shim the Lower guide plates (that sit below the ways), I noticed that there was definitely some wear.  I noticed that when I removed some shims, the carriage was fine toward the headstock, but got really tight (could not move) when sliding it toward the tail.  Bottom line is that I guess that a lot of the turning took place near the headstock as you might expect.

Looks as though there was about .008" or so difference from end to end which I think is significant.  At first, I thought the wear was from the Guide plates beneath, but that did not make much sense.



So, I started scraping the ways on the last 1/4 near the tail stock to true it up and it became somewhat evident.  I am awaiting on a few items to finish it up and fine tune it and then will proceed to check the headstock alignment (hopefully that is all that is needed) and align the tailstock.  Then off to reassemble the rest and start cutting.  I will post more on what I am doing here...  I am in unchartered waters, but I think I will be ok.  Let's just say, I don't think that I have under thought the process  :smart: However, I am open to any and all suggestions of do's and don'ts!

I also need to clean up the MT3 (mostly in the tail stock), so I ordered up a finishing reamer to do so.

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2012, 09:16:30 PM »
Since I removed all shims and the guide/wear plates still do not remove all of the play, I am going to need to improvise here.  My two thoughts were:

1.) Mill down the guide plate a bit more where it mounts to the carriage, so the wear strip takes up the space to the way (would go a few thou extra and then use shim stock to adjust).
2.) Remake those guide/wear plates on both sides of the carriage our of some bronze flat bar.  I ordered some, but not sure if I will get too much wear too quick as the std was just steel plate.  I would make the bronze lap further onto the bottom of the way as the factory left a decent sized gap and has only a fairly small contact surface. 

Thoughts?



I know most of the pressure when turning is downward on the carriage to the top of the V, but I assume that it is best to tighten up the clearance to prevent any carriage shifting?

When I am all said and done, I want this thing dialed in as if it were new (or close to it)!

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 09:29:00 PM »
Either everyone is cringing in their seats and keeping a tight lip or I am somewhat on the right track :laugh:

I took a slight break on the ways, but they are pretty close to where I am happy with them.  A bit more and I will call it a day.

I started working on the motor.  I mentioned that when I bought the lathe, the owner had it a brief period and was going to restore and never used it.  He claimed the motor was shutting down when the lathe was on higher spindle speeds.  I wanted to wire it up for 220v, so I proceeded to find a diagram on the interwebs (since the sticker and Cap cover was long gone).  On Baldor's, site and others, I finally found one for this 3/4 1P model, but the connection board was not the same.  ...and the wiring did not appear to jive with what was on paper or on coincide with the 110v plug that was previously connected to the lathe and looked like it had been for a while.

Since I was replacing the bearings anyway, I took it all apart and traced back all of the wire numbers to the back of the connection board.  As it turns out, the motor WAS wired for 220v, even though it had a 110v plug  :hammer:  My guess is that it was hard wired before the prev owner and the wire was cut from the box when sold, so the guy I bought it from just decided to stick a 110v plug based on the wire colors (white, black and green)...   :loco:  In the States, this is typ for Low Voltage, not High Voltage.

Anyway, got it wired up to 220v and ran it for a while, so all appears well.  I also ran extra leads to be able to reverse the motor and tested that out (it works).  The motor is not internally braked, so I am leery about using a reverse switch since the motor must come to rest before switching rotation.  I may just make it hard to do so for the rare times I want to reverse the motor.  I also need to finalize switches, etc in the control box and want to add back a panic stop.

Lots of words and no pics.  I will update with some pics soon :)

Shawn

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2012, 09:00:20 AM »
Hi Shawn,

I would like to say you are doing a fantastic job, but noticed you have missed a few bits while painting.

According to Ebay lathe sales, you forgot to paint the handles, knobs, drive belts and gear teeth. Overspray on the bed is also a common standard  :Doh:

Great work. good to see quality iron being improved and kept in service.
Best regards, Meilleures salutations, Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Cu salutari
Mark
https://www.youtube.com/c/RotarySMP

Offline steamer

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2012, 08:31:17 AM »
Hi Shawn,

Wear in the saddle can be expected, but its most probably wear in the ways your seeing.
Do you have a precision level?  ( .0005"/12")   If the V ways are 90 degree, you can use standard matched V blocks and meausure the wear in the ways with the level.

Alternatively, if the ways are not 90 degree V's, or you don't have the matched V blocks,  you can use the saddle instead.   With the lathe leveled, with a precision level, Move the saddle to the Tailstock end and level up the level with a shim on one side.   No slowly move the Saddle towards the headstock and note the variation as you go ( do not touch or move the level!  just the saddle itself while it carries the level) ....say every 6".....right the variation down on the ways or on a sketch so you can keep track.  This will map the twist in the ways with respect to the way leveling surfaces,   from there you can start to make some decisions based on that.

Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 11:33:09 PM »
Thanks for the response and you have some very good suggestions.  I haven't thought about using some V blocks, but was working similar to what you described using the saddle.  I like the V Blocks and need a set anyway, so I may go that route to fine tune/double check.

I used some dye, and a precision Starrett 36" straight edge to check and rough scrape the ways.  After initial scraping the ways (initially and not finalized), I got a set of 3/4" precision MT3 Collets and a 36" length of Precision 3/4" Shaft.  Mic'ed the diam, etc and I then used the Saddle to check the height diffs along the bed from the head stock to the tail and then the same for the side.  I adjusted the Tail stock against and needed to shim the height about .008".  Both ended up quite a bit < .001" diff, but I will fine tune with some more precise methods on the saddle and maybe even some precision V blocks (as suggested).

I am going to wait to finalize this though as I tie up some of the other loose ends.  I also need to tailor the Gibs under the way(s) as I know there is some wear there too (@ the headstock).

Offline steamer

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 12:44:12 AM »
I'd also strongly recommend Connelly's book  "Machine Tool Reconditioning"....I know it's pricey...but it's worth it!

It would take you through the rebuild process.   Also a great cure for insomnia...the writing style is very dry.

Dave
 
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Damned ijjit!

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 11:03:43 PM »
Decided to get some more work done, but in other areas to wrap them up.  Completed refinishing the cabinet doors and drawers as well as the side guards, made a piece to repair the Turret tool post and also reinstalled and wired up the motor and switches.

This is the main locking latch for the turret tool post that was broken and frozen up.  I ended up fabbing one up using a good old fiber cut off wheel on a 4" angle grinder for the rough cutting and then some hand files, etc to fine tune it.












I then quench hardened it.












Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2012, 11:22:52 PM »
As far as the motor goes, I mentioned that the lathe came with a 3/4hp Baldor 1Ph and the wiring was screwed.  I changed bearings and sorted out the wiring for 220v.

I really was not happy with just wiring it to a switch and not being able to reverse the motor (should the need arise).  So, I decided to do some thinking and came up with a scheme.  Use a Double Pole single throw switch "DPST" for the main power switch.  I also thought to use a 3PDT switch to allow for reversing.  2 of those poles would be used to reverse the directional motor wiring.  I decided to use the 3rd pole in series from the main On/Off switch to activate a double pole Relay/Contactor.  The reason for doing this was 2 fold.

1.) It allows you to use the 3PDT switch (on-off-on) solely during operation.  So when the switch is in FW and you switch it to off (in the middle position), it cuts main power to the motor via the contactor.  Then switching the switch to REV, reverses the motor directional wiring and reActivates the 2 pole contactor thus power the motor again.  No Need to shut the main power switch off first then changing direction on the second switch and then powering back on from the main.

It should be noted that this motor does not have a brake, so technically, it must stop before reversing (or come close) so that you do not burn out the start winding.

2.) I can easily wire in an Emergency Stop switch now via breaking power to the relay/contactor.  These seem to be pretty pricey, so I opted not to get one just yet.  I will do so when the lathe is fully operational.


I extended the motor's directional wiring to the switch described above.






You can see the Relay/Contactor before mounting.




Notice how the top and bottom 2 poles are cross linked to reverse the directional wiring.  The center Pole(s) are used to activate the 120v Relay/Contactor from the main power switch.




Mounted in orig face panel




Works like a DREAM!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 09:24:54 AM by sdezego »

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2013, 12:46:48 PM »
Time for an update I suppose.

 - Got the Lathe all leveled in it's final resting place
 - Ran 220v power along with a 110v box above it
 - finished all of the painting and misc
 - Replaced the Motor Cap as someone had the wrong one in there and it was acting flakey at times
 - Finished scraping the ways, etc
 - Made a Chip guard (should resemble Rob's somewhat  :wave:)
 - Used the lathe to make some pieces/parts even though I am not done with it...

To Do's

 - Make new Apron Gear
 - Replace apron shaft Bushings
 - Button apron assy up


Nothing Fancy here, but just showing the completed control panel with the main ON/OFF and the Double Throw switch to handle both FW/REV using the electrical contactor relay described/shown above.




I have zero sheet metal tools and didn't feel like making or buying any as I rarely have the need.  So, I was going to make it out of steel, but I got creating with Aluminum and glad I went this route.  Off the top of my head, I used very thin AL for the main (guessing like 1/16"), thicker for the end plates (1/8-3/16") and some used angle.

My High Tech AL saw..



I used the thicker ends for support and because I wanted to cut a thin channel to make bending a breeze (cheater)  :thumbup:











I had to use the bench with some angle iron and clamps for the big bends.  It's not perfect, but I am happy with how it came out.  I also TIG'ed up the channel corners and some minor stitch work on the rear seams.  But, it is Riveted for the most part.








Some organizing to do around it...




Time to get the Apron in order.

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2013, 01:47:09 PM »
 :clap: :clap: :clap: coming along very nicely  :thumbup:


Rob

Offline Fredbare

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2013, 05:55:46 PM »
Great work.

John

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2013, 08:22:34 PM »
Thanks guys.  This forum promotes good work and causes people to go the extra mile!

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2013, 12:07:52 PM »
In searching for other items, I came across my MkIII's brother that was listed on Ebay.UK in Dec (Wolverhampton area). 

Looks like it did not sell for anyone interested -> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/churchill-lathe-/....

Offline osprey

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2014, 05:51:05 AM »
Fascinating reading this thread. I served my apprenticeship at Churchill Redman, Halifax. As a first year apprentice we had to assemble these lathes from scratch so you learnt very quickly, scraping, assembly and alignments. In a nostalgic moment I bought two of these lathes and am in the process of rebuilding one. The bed I have had reground as they were "chilled" semi-hardened. All the other slides I have hand scraped. I've had everything apart.....the gear-box is/was a mind boggler even in those days. The company eventually ceased to make these as the bean counter said they were losing money on them, which didn't surprise me, so I was very fortunate to have had this opportunity. Happy days.....

Offline krv3000

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2014, 05:43:16 PM »
well dun brill

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 09:07:11 AM »
Fascinating reading this thread. I served my apprenticeship at Churchill Redman, Halifax. As a first year apprentice we had to assemble these lathes from scratch so you learnt very quickly, scraping, assembly and alignments. In a nostalgic moment I bought two of these lathes and am in the process of rebuilding one. The bed I have had reground as they were "chilled" semi-hardened. All the other slides I have hand scraped. I've had everything apart.....the gear-box is/was a mind boggler even in those days. The company eventually ceased to make these as the bean counter said they were losing money on them, which didn't surprise me, so I was very fortunate to have had this opportunity. Happy days.....

Very cool.  Would love to see what you have there. 

You should also check out Rob's build as he put on quite a show rebuilding his Cub -> http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,2624.0.html

Offline sdezego

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2014, 09:12:53 AM »
^ shame, looks like the pics are gone in Rob's thread.

Offline RayW

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 02:03:02 PM »
I have a Mk II Cub dated 1943. Works well, but gearbox very noisy. Sounds possibly like a bearing rattling, but I have not been able to detect any play in any of them. I have tried, but failed, to identify exactly where the noise is coming from. Does anyone with experience of dismantling and overhauling these gear boxes have any suggestions please?

Offline awemawson

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 03:54:56 PM »
Don't be surprised if they were very noisy when new  :(

Lathe gearboxes of that era, and even much later one also, used straight cut gears which can be very noisy - doesn't matter in a clattery factory but becomes noticeable in your workshop  :ddb:

Andrew
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Offline dawesy

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2014, 04:42:44 AM »
Looking good. You've done a real nice job there. I also own a churchill redman lathe ( mine seems to be a unknown one as I can't find any info on it. Seems to be a late 30's one)
Most of your carriage looks the same as mine though.
Keep up the good work.
Lee.
wishing my workshop was larger :(

Offline osprey

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2014, 04:20:10 AM »
I'd never thought about it before but the apron is "American", as the handwheel is on the left hand and not on the right hand side as normally found on UK lathes...I wonder why it was done like that?

Offline dawesy

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2014, 09:18:42 AM »
churchill redman started producing some lathes 'under licence' from a company called Jones & Lamson so maybe thats why, my hand wheel is also on the left. quite a good wiki article on churchill redman detailing their rather chequered history
Lee.
wishing my workshop was larger :(

Offline osprey

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2014, 02:59:15 AM »
How interesting, I never knew that, however the Churchill Co did have it's origins in the USA and started out by importing tools from the USA. I have the centenary book which we received when I was there which outlines the history of the company. Thanks for that bit of info.

Offline Duane

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2020, 06:49:26 PM »
Fantastic. Just found this. I also own a '54 Cub.
Any advice on the clutch set up, disassembly and reassembly. Thank you.

Offline johnd

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2020, 08:39:49 AM »
Hello I have a MK three, which I've owned for over thirty years. Its main work is building and maintaining my vintage cars. There is a Facebook page dedicated to the lathe, just five members so far, if you folks would care to join it could be a good centre for discussion.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/627753447903522

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2021, 06:39:55 AM »
I'm just fixing up a CUB MkIII for a friend . 

Does anyone have a picture/ diagram of how the change gears are setup on the banjo?  (I want to know locations of the intermediates)

Bill
Bill

Offline philf

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2021, 03:51:55 AM »
Bill, Tony at lathes.co.uk has the manual available for the MK III.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2021, 06:09:32 AM »
Hi Phil,

Thanks, I have Tony's manual , but it doesn't have a gear diagram (or chart strangely )

I can probably figure it out but ....
Bill

Offline philf

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Re: Churchill-Redman CUB MKIII Restoration
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2021, 12:55:18 PM »
That's a pity.

As you say - very strange that the changewheel info isn't in the manual.

Good luck.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire