Author Topic: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope  (Read 20777 times)

Offline PeterE

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C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« on: July 08, 2012, 05:57:06 PM »
Well, then it was time for me to start the necessary job to upgrade and hopefully improve the C3 mini-lathe. The reason for starting right now was that the other day I heard a clonk and the lower half-nut dropped out by itself. It must have loosened by vibrations and I have not noticed it before as I seldom actually use the power feed.

So, time to start following the descriptions from Model Engineers Workshop regarding this. Out came the lead screw, set up and drilled for the extension to take the lead screw handle, and then put aside for later.  Off came the apron as next step.

Everything looked quite OK. Not much swarf around the hand wheel gears and otherwise looking good - apart from that the gib strip for the half nuts was also missing - dropped out together with the lower half nut.

Made a cover for the lead screw gears from a piece of acrylic from the scrap box. Had to thin the gears a little so they would clear the new cover and gave them a small dose of bearing grease as lubrication.  So far so good.

The picture shows the apron back together again. Still pondering about if I should make some better "dimples" for the gib strip as well as wondering if I should make a better "hold-down clamp" to replace the two screws with washer that do just that. The present solution feels a little too cheap as a long term solution.

Does anyone know if the gib strip is hardened? Just so I know what drill to choose.

The grease I use is a bearing grade grease of which I have to use very little.

A standard Lithium-based bearing grease good enough for car wheel bearings and the like. Should do well also for my machines I think.

The jorney has just begun ....

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline ParCan

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 01:28:45 PM »
"Does anyone know if the gib strip is hardened? Just so I know what drill to choose."

The Gibb strips on my Chester Conquest, the same machine I think, were not hardened.
I had the same issue with the 1/2 nut. I just made the dimples deeper (around 1mm).

Alex
For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert....

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 01:52:29 PM »
"Does anyone know if the gib strip is hardened? Just so I know what drill to choose."

The Gibb strips on my Chester Conquest, the same machine I think, were not hardened.
I had the same issue with the 1/2 nut. I just made the dimples deeper (around 1mm).

Alex
Thanks a lot Alex  :thumbup:  I will go for a center drill then.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 05:53:33 AM »
HI,

Haven't done this mysef yet, but I have to refurb one lathe after I have TLCd other one to full "production specs" :D

I did some rechears on this kind of gibs. One book (The Model Engineers Workshop Manual by Geo.H.Thomas if i remember correctly) and several notes in net led me to beleive that conical ends of set screws tend to "wedge" the gib firmer to the dove way when slide is moved. Apparently you should drill an extra hole and pin gib stationary and/or use dog point set screw to take up the slac.

Pekka

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 09:52:06 AM »
HI,

Haven't done this mysef yet, but I have to refurb one lathe after I have TLCd other one to full "production specs" :D

I did some rechears on this kind of gibs. One book (The Model Engineers Workshop Manual by Geo.H.Thomas if i remember correctly) and several notes in net led me to beleive that conical ends of set screws tend to "wedge" the gib firmer to the dove way when slide is moved. Apparently you should drill an extra hole and pin gib stationary and/or use dog point set screw to take up the slac.

Pekka
Exactly what is in my mind Pekka! I also have the George H Thomas book - really good! - and will follow his intentions when fixing the half-nut dove tails. There are three set screws to "fix" and set the gib strip and they will all get deeper points together with a new hole for a securing pin to remove the risk of the gib strip to fall out again.

Furthermore there will be a longer and wider piece of plate to hold down the gib strip instead of the flimsy washers used today, and perhaps a few other "improvements".

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline andyf

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 12:46:44 PM »
If you have not only the screws but also a pin to locate the gib, Peter, you probably won't need a plate or those screws and washers.

I made an apron with a half nut to replace a solid nut on a little lathe, and that holds in place very well with the adjusting screws only:
< http://andysmachines.weebly.com/a-half-nut-for-the-perris.html >

I did make decent sized dimples, though, following the instructions which which came with the kit of parts for the lathe 40 years ago:
"The way to do this is to lock the outer screws, remove the centre ones and using a hand drill (not electric) with a small twist drill which enters the hole, rotate a few times to cut a dimple, clean out the hole, replace the screw and do the same with each of the other holes in turn".

With gibs on cross- and top slide dovetails, where the gibs move with the sliding, rather than the static component, you sometimes have to watch that the screws don't push the gib down the slope of the dovetail so that it jams against the static part.

Andy

Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 04:18:46 PM »
Hi Andy,

About the gib strip; In most cases I would go with what you are saying, but in this case the gib strip is almost triangular in shape, that is, the "pocket" in which the dove-tailed half nuts run have only a 60 degree dove tail to the left (in my picture above). The right side is completely upright without dove tail. So, the washers are used to hold down the gib strip and keep it in place while the set screws provide the sideways movement tightening and removing the play.

Due to this I would be quite unsure that the gib strip would stay in place by the dimples and pin)-s) alone. There will be some force from the feed that I think will try to trwist out the half nut if going gets rough. That is why I am thinking of replacing the washers with a longer keep plate. Then I think only one pin would be enough to keep the gib strip from falling out and good dimples for the set screws.

As work slowly advances, I found that the way of setting/removing the play between the x-slide and the bed had also loosened. It must be due to the fact that the securing screws cannot be tightened hard enough and still provide the proper amount of "play" (there shouldnīt be any and still the x-slide should move).

If I take the set screws away and just tighten the fastening screws the x-slide i locked solid. In a way this is good as I then can put a shim or packing to get the "play" where I want it.

 :scratch: Question: As I do not have any shim plate, can I use ordinary printer paper slightly oiled or should I try to find proper brass shims of various thicknesses? Paper is easy to use as one or more sheets are required and is readily available.

Work continues ...  :dremel:

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline velocette

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 05:15:59 PM »
Hi Spotted this posting on gib adjustment screws. Here is a tip I picked up to address the problem.

Locking up the tight the adjustment and then remove one screw and use a hand drill the tapping size of the screw you have removed and Hand drilling the dimple and clean up is sound advice.

Find a Ball Bearing that is smaller than the tapping size and  CUP POINT screws. Put the ball into the hole first and secure with the cup point screw this gives you a hardened point of contact and a lot more control on the adjustment.

Example 5 mm screw 4.2 tapping 4 mm or 5/32 ball

I Completed this mod on an X2 mill when I purchased it and very pleased with the result

 :mmr:

Eric



Offline andyf

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 05:28:06 PM »
Got that, Peter. Sieg have odd ways of doing some things, don't they?

I believe from the Yahoo 7x12 Group that shimming the gibs between the saddle "side plates" and the underside of the bed is a lot better than Seig's way of some screws pushing up and others pushing down. Paper would probably work, but you might also consider cutting up beer/pop cans, the aluminium trays used for some ready meals and takeaways, and aluminium cooking foil, to build up the thickness you want.

Andy.
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline loply

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 05:51:44 PM »
As somebody who has made about three different sets of gibs for each of the various parts of a 7x12 I can recommend replacing the main saddle gibs with new ones which set with screws.

I would advise against using shims as you will find the saddle is not machined parallel to the underside of the lathe bed. If you use shims you will need to shim the front and rear of the gib seperately to achieve proper contact, which is decidedly fiddly.

The best method is to make a new gib strip which is larger than the original, and insert into it two rows of small grub screws with faced/flattened ends. By adjusting the screws front and rear you can tilt the gib strip back and forth, as well as adjust it's "height" ie tightness, and can use permanent marker to test until you achieve good contact.

There is an example of this on the website http://www.toolsandmods.com/lathe/mini-lathe-saddle

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 06:21:23 PM »
Thanks for very good suggestions!

Eric; the way to get hardened tips using ball bearing balls is really good! The set screws are M3 So I need balls somewhere around 2 mm dia which should not be a problem.

Andy; I read through the setting of the saddle "gibs" as described in MEW at the time and have also read some other versions in other places. I then find that the gib strips for the saddle (whatever they are called) should really be well secured against the saddle to avoid loosening from vibration. To set the play using the set screws and the securing screws will most probably be even fiddlier than cutting a few strips of alu cans or trays (how could I forget having read about that as well?).

Loply; Thanks for sharing your experience  :thumbup: I will certainly think of that! As far as I ahve come right now, I found that if I nipped up the saddle gibs finger-tight (without using the jacking set screws) I could move the saddle all the way from head-stock to tail-stock without it nipping anywhere. Hmmm, this means that each machine is individual, and mine seems to be parallell then.

So far I have flattened the saddle gibs using a fine file which made the saddle move smoother than before, interesting ...  To avoid filing where I donīt have to, I made guides from a nut using the corner as tip ...

... and supported a file with a safe edge against the nuts. Thus I could gently file the surface smooth.


Work (and experimenting) continues ...

/Peter

Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline bp

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 06:59:42 PM »
Hi Peter,
Bogstandard did pretty much the definitive mini lathe refurbishment/improvement thread on this site.  It includes tapered Saddle gibs....the Rolls Royce way to go.  Do a search for "Fixing Darren's Lathe" or something like that.
enjoy.
I recently did the George Thomas suggested "Gib Dowel with lockscrew" mod on the compound and cross slides of my mini lathe and can highly recommend it
Bill

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 07:10:04 PM »
Hi Bill, Thanks for pointing me to that I will go through the thread thoroly before  going further.

Some work done today. I took my time and did the gib strips for the saddle. After some measuring and testing I found that it would work well using shims and to tighten the gib strips hard against the saddle as shown below.

The picture taken when everything was assembled for the last fitting. The socket head screws are replaced by Loctited studs. The small jacking screws are still on the gib strips but are not used. Not needed anymore so I simply left them where they were.

Interestingly I found that when adding the same shim thickness over the whole width of the saddle it rocked sligtly at hte headstock end. Same on both front and back. Had to cut the shim on that end to get rid of the play and now the saddle slides easily over the whole bed length without any play nice and sweet.

Turning the saddle over I noted a couple of things that may be of interest.

The C3 (SIEG) saddle is not "whole" on the tail stock side which is a pity. If the middle piece had been there it would have been much easier to add a saddle lock. Now I have two small pegs onto which I hand the said lock when needed, but this in turn limits the possibilities to add saddle lubrication points of the same type as the Real Bull or WEISS version(-s). Not even the cover screws for the travelling steady are placed to double as lubrication points unfortunately. It would be possible to place a lubrication point at the left back end of the saddle right in front of the strady scrwe and then allow for a small "canal" for the oil to travel the whole width of the back part of the saddle.

Well, at this point I will consider the saddle to be done and continuing with the apron. The gears fixed before work nice and sweet without play - good meshing actually - and the gear mesh well with the rack on the bed as well. The work done today was to improve the dimples for the half nut gib strip = done. Worked nice even using a hand drill. The washers were replaced by a longer keep plate but I maintained the two screws holding it. Finally I added the securing pin to avoid the gib strip to fall out if become loose again.

The pin is 2 mm and made from a broken 2 mm drill bit. You can see the small hole at the far right. The set screws will get a ball bearing ball as suggested when the balls arrive. Good tip!  :thumbup:

Work slowly continues ...
BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2012, 04:20:48 PM »
So another days work and the lathe is slowly being re-assembled. Re-checked the saddle this morning and thought is was done. Lightly moving all the bed back and forth.

So mounted the X-slide and topslide back on as I had to use the machine to make some small adjustments to the new hand wheel for the saddle. The old plastic one had given up. In the following picture the apron is also back on but only lightly fitted as work is ongoing to adjust the leadscrew and its new right-hand end bearing setup.

The new hand wheel has a slightly smaller diameter (80 mm) which actually is good as the distance between the cross-slide ball-handle and the saddle hand-wheel is a bit bigger. Due to this my fingers can now pass between the handles without disturbing any settings.

The new hand-wheel also have a scale ring (still not graduated though) that can be set as required.

Also the lead screw is back in place with its new right hand end bearing. My solution for this is done using the solution from the Tools and Mods site but adapted to a SIEG machine. The bits looks as follows.

When the bearing is assembled it is a compact setup as below.

The additional bits include a short lead screw extension which is both Loctited and pinned to be sure that the bits will not part at the wrong occasion. The pin is hidden under the conical sleeve which also moves the bearing housing to a better position for the handle. The housing has two bearings which lock the lead screw to eliminate any play or back-lash. At the end a new handle of the same type as the saddle handle will be fitted and the scale ring (to be done) will cover the lock ring that locks the lead screw to the bearings.

The picture shows it all in semi-assembled state as there are some bits to be done and some paint to finish the whole thing off.

To finalize the tail stock end of the machine will I also add the same type of handle to the tail stock. The handle will of course also get a scale ring and I am pondering on how to solve the position of the fiducial line, as it is now I think there is something missing between the tail stock and the hand wheel. Hmmmm  :scratch:

Well, so far so good. It all seems to come together in a good way.

Oh, I read through Bogstandards desription of Fixing Darrens Lathe, one of the most informative descriptions so far!  Comparing that with how I did I did not do all the measuring to begin with which I really should have done  :bang:. Of course I checked straightness and how true the datum faces were, and could find that on my machine it looked fine from start. Also checked the thicknesses of the gib strip surfaces with a mike and found them to be well within limits and consistent.

The saddle had a small play at the head stock end, the same amount front and back. Not much and I took that out by cutting away about half of one of the shims in each pack. In hind-sight this must of course depend on the saddle to be slightly out of square as if it had not been accurately placed in its production jig. A minor detail now fixed.

After doing these relatively easy adjustments and mods I find that the machine feels "tighter" and more stable which in turn will enable better finish and precision. At first it felt a bit scvary to dis-assemble the machine, but having read up on the matters in different places it really was not that difficult.  :D

Work continues ....

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2012, 02:07:11 AM »
Well done Peter!  :clap: :clap:

I've stripped/ rebuilt sections of my mini lathe many times, over the past 8 years.

It's always a bonus, when it feels, and works better afterwards.......  :thumbup:

David D
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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2012, 04:38:04 PM »
Thank you David D!

Yes, it feels so much better working with it now. Had to thin down a piece of aluminium today and the shape of the piece resulted in interrupted cuts. I heard it and felt a very small vibration but could not hear any rattling or the like anymore  :D  so I must have done something right. The whole job was fun and gave me more knowledge about the machine as well as making me more confident in doing it. Lots of bonuses yes  :ddb:

Anyway, there are still things to finish before I am ready with this upgrade so work continues ...

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline andyf

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2012, 05:32:12 PM »
That looks smashing, Peter. I'm sure you will find the handwheel a boon. The one fitted to my somewhat different lathe gets a lot of use when I can't face switching between changewheels set up for fine feed to turn something down to size and then a set-up for screwcutting. It's much quicker to do the plain turning by hand without the gear on the leadscrew, and then put that gear back on to cut the thread.

You'll have fun with the dial; with a 16tpi leadscrew, one full turn of the handle = 62.5 thou carriage movement. My machine is worse: 12tpi, so 83.33 thou. I did make an 84 division dial, but eventually made one with 100 divisions and put it on a separate shaft along with a 48T gear, driven by a 40T behind the handwheel, so one full turn of the dial = 100 thou movement. It works well, now I have got used to the dial going contrariwise.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2012, 05:58:38 PM »
To all mini lathe owners........

Check the 'orrible little grub screw, which holds the feed handle in place!  :poke:

Mine now has a proper, secure, allen grub screw.....
After the handle came loose. Sending the tool into the chuck jaws, at top revs!  :bugeye: :bugeye:

Enough excitement for one day.......  :doh:

David D




David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2012, 06:13:42 PM »
Thanks Andy, the lead screw handwheel has already passed the test with flying colours even though I am still not used to winding it "the wrong way" compared with the MJ-189 (which has a left-hand lead-screw thread). As you say, plain turning using the lead screw hand-wheel is quicker and more sensisitve than using the saddle hand-wheel.

My lead screw seems to be 1.5 mm pitch from a quick measurement so I will take it from there and see where I get. I guess all three scale rings will be different in the end.

@David D; Ouch, that must have been a scary moment  :bugeye: 

I made sure that all my handle securing screws are proper allen grub screws with a hollow tip, not flat or pointy, but as said, it is worth a check now and then to avoid possibly costly mishaps.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline andyf

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2012, 08:36:49 PM »
Hi Peter,

Ah, I hadn't realised yours had a metric leadscrew. A 16 tpi one would be nearly 17mm per turn.

But if winding your handle clockwise sends the saddle with its clasp nut away from the handle towards the headstock, the thread is LH, like those on your cross slide and topslide. I think your MJ 189 (that's a Taiwanese Unimat clone, isn't it?) must have had an RH leadscrew.

There's a nice treatise on engraving dials here: 
http://www.neme-s.org/images/PDF_Files/Making_Graduated_Collars1.pdf 
The method of engraving the marks by plunging in with the tool and then dragging it out over the edge worked well for me, but I think a lathe with more robust spindle bearings and chuck  would stand up better to his way of stamping numbers.

Andy

Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2012, 12:07:21 PM »
Hi Andy,

I have a metric machine so both the dials and the markings on the tail stock plunger are in mm.  The lead screw is an ordinary Rihgt-hand thread, menaning that I have to wind the new handle counter_clockwise to send the saddle towards the head stock, quite contrary to the tailstock or the slides who have proper LH threads (moving the item away from me when  turning clockwise).

A crazy thought passed through my head to use a gear to change rotation to make it more natural and perhaps at the same time make that gear an angled gear so that the hand wheel is oriented like the saddle hand wheel - I think one of the WABECO machines do it that way. But that is for the next round there is still things to do until finished with this round.

Thanks for the link to the graduation document. Very informative. I have also read up on the subject in George H Thomasīs books and as well tried GHTīs way of engraving the graduation lines, works well. The biggest problem will be to calculate the proper number of divisions to get a useful dial. 0.025 mm / line seems to be a common target that works both for metric and imperial machines, hmmmm.

For stamping numbers I will use GHTīs Universal Pillar Tool of which I have made my version of.


Work continues ...
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline andyf

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2012, 02:51:16 PM »
Gosh, Peter, I never realised minilathes had RH leadscrews! Have looked at a pic of the change wheels set up on one, and they obviously do. I stand corrected!

I modified Mike Burdick's method (the one in my link) with a crude but effective depth stop to get the dial lines to uniform lengths for the units and the 5s and 10s, respectively.  If you're interested, details 3/4 way down this page: http://andysmachines.weebly.com/miscellaneous.html

I like your pillar tool. The base and column of a very antique bench drill have been hanging around my garage for 10 years, asking me to make something similar.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2012, 05:15:04 PM »
Well I didnīt think so either until I got my machine. The lead screw on my MJ-189 is a LH thread so I just took for granted that it would be the same on the C3. It was a surprise to find the contrary.

If I could make a wish I would wish for a 2 mm pitch LH ACME thread lead screw. That would be extremely useful compared with the 1.5 mm pitch. The MJ-189 have a 1 mm pitch LH thread that works beautifully. Distance calculations are so easy to do as required.

When it comes to graduating I have already made a tool to set the lines, the right one in the picture below. ...

I tried it when graduating a micrometer stop and it works well. The three pegs are pre-set for the different line lengths and the "star" is turned forward for 5īs and backwards for 10īs. Clips on like a saddle stop on the bed. For setting up I use a suitable distance between the 1īs peg and the saddle when the graduating tool is just in position to start graving the line. Removing the distance the other lines are automatically correct in distance.

The old bench drill sounds like a good base for a pillar tool. A lot of work will be spared and can be concentrated on the important bits  :thumbup:

BR

Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline andyf

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2012, 09:10:18 PM »
Hi Peter,

Ooh err! That depth stop is a bit sophisticated!

I suupose you might be able to source a 2mm pitch LH trapezoidal (Acme style) leadscrew of similar diameter to your existing one, but the half nuts to suit that and yiour apron might be a little more taxing. A project too far, perhaps.

I'll have give Ye Olde Bench Drill a proper coat of looking at, and consider how much of the column needs to be turned away before what comes off changes from rust-red powder to swarf.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline PeterE

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Re: C3 Upgrade and improvement - I hope
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2012, 04:23:19 PM »
Hi Andy,

The depth stop perhaps look sophisticated, but it works, thatīs enough for me.

Well, the 2 mm pitch lead screw idea is probably a bit too mad for a project, you are right there.

On the other hand, your bench drill to tapping tool conversion seems to be slowly advancing, a project in the making? Don't forget pictures  :D

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)