Author Topic: Proxxon PD400  (Read 39532 times)

Offline wongster

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Proxxon PD400
« on: January 01, 2012, 01:35:52 AM »
Hello folks,

Blessed New Year to all!

I received the Proxxon PD400 lathe 3 days ago am am still getting myself familiar with it. This is a first time I have my hand on a lathe other than the Sherline.

I encounter the problem of handwheels being too stiff to turn. Loosening the screw holding the handwheels make it easier for the cross slide and compound slide though not as smooth as what I have on the Sherline. I tried adjusting the gib without much success. The carriage and leadscrew handwheels are still giving me problem.

Anyone with a similar lathe or the PD400 encountered this and found a solution? There are little resources available online and no user club. The manual that came with the lathe is rather skimpy.

I've updated my blog with some pics of the slides taken apart. They look quite similar to the mini lathe on some aspect.

Appreciate any help.

Regards,
Wong
www.wongstersproduction.blogspot.com
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 01:29:50 AM by spuddevans »

Offline Swarfing

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2012, 05:12:57 AM »
Wong

For a new lathe i do not see a single bit of lubricant or grease on your pictures. Are you sure it just not needs a good dose of grease and oil?
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Offline David Jupp

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 05:51:53 AM »
I can't see the condition of the slides very well - on many machines these aren't prepared to a very good standard at all.  On my co-ordinate table I got a HUGE improvement in smoothness of travel by briefly lapping the slides with some lapping paste (making sure I cleaned up well afterwards). 

This did no more than remove the highest points of the (relatively roughly) machined surfaces - I didn't aim for a visibly smooth surface as I didn't want to risk losing correct alignment.  I wasn't confident my lapping would be uniform across the whole slide.

On higher cost machines, the slides would typically be scraped - this is just too costly in the production of budget machines.

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2012, 06:59:41 AM »
I put some grease on the dovetails and on the gibs. Pics taken after I did some cleaning up.

For the leadscrew handwheel, it turns smoothly with the 1/2 nut disengaged.

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2012, 10:52:18 AM »
Hi Wong I have the very same lathe and as yet have not used it very much (being back overseas working again).  I must admit that the long travel was a bit "sticky" until I got it proprly cleaned.  I did not use grease just used engine oil, don't know if that is good or bad.  It is still not as smooth as I would like and will still need to work on it a bit.  What I have done but yet to use is bought some specific lubricant for the slideways.  What I would say is that if you are struggling an email to Proxxon in Germany will be answered by the technical group.

I have much of the attachments that you have bought (and a few more as well - my wife thinks I am a Proxxon collector or shareholder  :D).  I am curious about the problem with the ball turning device as I have that as well - have you managed to get it working yet?

Graham
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Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2012, 12:28:09 PM »
Hi Graham,

I just finished taking off the compound and cross slides to clean up again.  This time, I put plenty of grease on the necessary parts. The part that makes the turning of the handwheels smoother is the contact surface between the handwheel and the part of the slide that it comes in contact with. After much playing around with the tightness of the nut holding the handwheel, the compound and the cross slide can move much easily than before.

I also took out the leadscrew to give it a good amount of the way oil I bought from A2ZCNC while trying to remove the carriage.  It just got jammed at the end of the way. Couldn't figure out what's blocking its exit.  I saw that there is a plate beneath the carriage that is held by 2 capscrews. This, I think, act as the carriage lock. The locking is done using the 3rd capscrew that is accessible from the top of the carriage.  The other 2 can't be accessed unless I turn the lathe upside down; something I'm not willing to attempt given its weight.  The 2 capscrews may be a little tight to allow free movement.  I'm just suspecting as I'm an absolute newbie.

As the carriage handwheel and the leadscrew handwheel are both stiff to turn, I find it difficult to start on any project.  Found a work around though; use both the handwheels at the same time.  This works nicely and the movement along the ways is now smoother.  I'll be doing this for the time being till I've someone willing to come by to help me lift up the lathe from the chip tray and flip it around.

I've not done anything further on the radius attachment.  I think a longer piece of rod would be required to give enough clearance from the chuck.  I've some time tomorrow.  Will do some test and probably play with the radius attachment somemore.

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 01:07:19 PM »
On higher cost machines, the slides would typically be scraped - this is just too costly in the production of budget machines.

Hi David

Just a comment from a point of view of expectations these are not budget machines and in the UK cost around £2,000 compared to a similar Asian 7 x 14 ones of round £500.  I suspect that a certain amount of bedding in may be required once the ways are cleaned and the gibs adjusted.

Wong you are quite correct the plate under the bed acts as a gib for the long travel so may need to be tweeked a bit.  Please keep in touch with how you are getting along as in the UK at least there are not many owners of this machine that I can find on the web.

Regards

Graham
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Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 01:26:26 PM »
Sure do, Graham, and thank you for clarifying that I didn't pay more than 4 times the price to get a lathe that is still within the budget range. If it is, I would rather just buy the SIEG and save the rest for other stuff.

Regards,
Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2012, 06:46:05 PM »
Hi Wong,

You mentioned that the leadscrew handwheel was hard to turn, though it turned easily with the half-nuts disengaged.

With the half nuts disengaged, can you move the carriage easily with the handwheel on the apron? If not, I can think of two reasons:
1.  Looking at the picture of the cross slide dial in the right-hand column half way down this page, http://thehobbyistmachineshop.com/shop23.html , there are three black Allen bolts going down through the carriage. Only two will be needed to hold the apron in place, so the third (one of the two on the left) is probably a carriage lock. It may have been tightened up to lock the carriage before the lathe was shipped, so check that it is not still tight.
2. The gibs on the carriage need loosening up a bit.

If you can run the carriage along easily with the apron handwheel, it is possible that the half nuts are not properly aligned to the leadscrew. In that case, the leadscrew handwheel should be easier to turn when the carriage is mid-way along the bed than when it is at either end. Midway, the leadscrew can bend to accommodate the misalignment, but near the ends it can't bend so easily. Put the carriage mid-way, and watch the leadscrew for any horizontal or vertical deflection as you engage the half nuts. If the deflection is horizontal, there's sometimes a bit of wriggle room on the two Allen bolts which hold the apron in place. Move the carriage to one end or the other, loosen the bolts, apply the half nuts and then tighten the bolts up again.  If the leadscrew deflects vertically, a fix may be more complicated.

Andy

Edit: The author in the link I gave above says "Every axis has a lock". Could it be that the cross-slide and compound were also locked up for shipping?
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Miner

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2012, 09:45:10 PM »
You really should be using a proper way oil. It also helps to flush out chips etc. Grease will retain that contamination. Your slides will also work much smoother with a proper way oil. That's a fine and high quality lathe. It would be a shame to wear it out faster than nessisary.

Pete

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2012, 10:42:49 PM »
Hi Andy,

Yes sir, all axes lock were loosed.  They're done via this tiny capscrews which I wonder if they're at all effective in locking up the axes.

I was over at Dan Kautz' site for many times before deciding on the lathe. The excitement of having the lathe makes me forgotten to check back on some of the photos and comments he made.  Thanks for pointing me back.

I went through the manual again late last night (or rather this morning at 3am). Nothing mentioned about the 3 bolts on the front of the apron but a diagram pointed out that the "clamping screw" for the carriage is on the saddle between the ways.  In the section that covers adjustments of "guide play", it shows that the adjustments are via the 2 sets of studs and screws on the gib plate underneath.  So flipping the machine over is inevitable if the gib plate is the culprit for stiff movement of the axis.  Let's hope it is not at this point but I'll keep it in mind.

The leadscrew was observed for any movement when the half nut was engaged and disengaged.  Saw some vertical movements.  When engaged, the leadscrew was lifted up quite a bit.

I'm trying to remove the carriage from the ways but it seems stuck at the end of the way.  Wanted to see how the carriage works and if there is anything I can further adjust for smooth turning.  The closest I can find is the article on mini-lathe.com.  The article mentioned that the carriage is blocked by the serial number stamped at the end of the ways.  Mine doesn't have that and I can't see anything that is blocking the exit of the carriage.  Took the opportunity to clean up the leadscrew and apply way oil.

Thank you for your taking time to provide me with all the information and suggestions.  Hope you can also help me with solving the vertical movement of the leadscrew when the half nut is engaged.

Regards,
Wong

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2012, 10:44:50 PM »
You really should be using a proper way oil. It also helps to flush out chips etc. Grease will retain that contamination. Your slides will also work much smoother with a proper way oil. That's a fine and high quality lathe. It would be a shame to wear it out faster than nessisary.

Pete

Thanks Pete. Since I'm not done with adjusting the lathe, I'll clean up the grease and apply the way oil I bought from A2ZCNC.

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2012, 11:26:44 PM »
An update.

I bite the bullet and remove the lathe from the chip tray and flip the lathe over.  The 2 setscrews and 2 bolts holding the plate are rather tight. I break the grip of the bolts and setscrews and retightened them.

Now the carriage and leadscrew handwheels turn very smoothly.  I'll do some test cut after lunch with my parents to see if its too loose.

Thank you all for your suggestions and input.  I'm sure I'll have more questions on using the lathe.

Regards,
Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 04:09:37 AM »

Hi Wong,

Good to hear you have got it working better.  :thumbup:

Don't worry about the size of the capscrews which lock up the slides. They look no smaller than the gib adjusters, and it needs very little pressure at one point on on a gib strip to lock up a slide completely.

It does seem that there might be some vertical misalignment between the half nuts and  leadscrew. The effect of this will make the leadscrew harder to turn as the half nuts approach the bearing blocks at each end. There is probably of no way of moving the lever, shaft and cam cam which operate the nuts up and down. That leaves two ways of getting things right. First, the fixing holes for the bearing blocks may be slotted, so the whole leadscrew can be lowered slightly. Secondly, you could fit a shim between the apron and the saddle (but then the carriage handwheel pinion should be raised up a little to maintain proper mesh with the rack).

If you can't work out a solution, it might be best to email Proxxon to find out what they suggest.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 05:09:42 AM »
Hi Andy,

I'm able to crank using the black handle at the end of the handwheels on both the carriage and the leadscrew from the tailstock end to the chuck end.  Maybe the saddle plate is a little on the loose side that this is possible with the vertical movement in the leadscrew.

I dropped Proxxon an email last night.  Hope to hear from them when their office opens.  They do not have a support email available by the way. Best is, the exploded diagrams at the back of the manual are all in German...

I've bought the article from mini-lathe.com on modifying the saddle so that adjustments can be made from the top than to have to flip the lathe over everytime when need arises.  Ran through the article once and saw that there are 2 gib plates underneath whereas the Proxxon has only 1.  I'm also still try to figure out how to remove the carriage from the ways to help me understand how things work.  So far has no success.

May I know how to read the table on the lathe on suggested feed and speed?  I want to test cut a piece of steel with diameter of 8.35mm.  Any suggestion on depth of cut for machine of this size to start me off?



Thank you once again.

Regards,
Wong

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 05:23:20 AM »
Hi Graham and Andy,

Shortly after I posted my reply to Andy, I received an email from Proxxon.  The export manager said that the possible cause is the alignment of the "toothed rack".  I was asked to loosen the 4 screws holding them and push them up against the top of the holes tightening them from left to right.

I'm going to try them later and tightened up the gib plate if this was in fact the problem (rather than the gib plate).

Will report back.

Regards,
Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 06:26:34 AM »
Hi Wong,

At the top, there is a short list of materials and  the recommended surface speeds in metres per minute for each of them. "Messing" brass. "Stahl" is steel, and I assume it refers to mild steel. I think "Automatenstahl" is free-cutting mild steel.
The table is there to as a guide to show what surface speed per minute your available spindle rpm (shown across the top of the table) will produce on different diameters of stock. You are looking at 8.35mm diameter, and if it is mild steel you want 20 - 40 metres per minute. The nearest diameter shown down the left side is 10mm, and looking across that row it seems that a spindle speed of 1400rpm will give you 44 m/minute. That's a bit fast, but your stock is only 83.5% of 10mm, so its surface speed will be about 83.5% of 44 m/minute - around 37 m/minute. And as you take successive cuts, the diameter and hence the surface speed will reduce.

As to depth of cut, I would start off at 0.25mm for a roughing cut.  That will reduce the diameter by 0.5mm. Bear in mind that the cross-slide may be marked up in "diameter reduction" rather than depth of cut, so advancing 0.5mm as shown on the dial gives you 0.25mm depth of cut.

Experience will show how adventurous you can be with depth of cut. On my 7x12 lathe (which is more robust than the usual mini-lathes) I usually use 0.5mm on mild steel, reducing the diameter by 1mm per pass. I only tend to use cutting fluid near the end, and for light finishing cuts. The feedscrew is 1mm pitch, so on repeated passes I just advance the handle 180 degrees from its previous position. That's easier than reading the dial.

Andy 
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 02:45:23 PM »
"I think "Automatenstahl" is free-cutting mild steel" - the literal translation is cutting steel so I think it is closer to silver steel which is why the spped probably drops..

Hi Wong the export manager is quite a helpful guy.  Secondly I would not recomend making and serious mods to the lathe at this stage as I am sure adjustments once set up are far and few between.

This is actually one tough machine so don't be too frigtened of it, the best advice I have been given is to listen to the machine and it will tell you what it does not like.  To start with keep the speed down, you won't great a great finish that will come as you play around.  Experiment with the depth of cut, starting out light and working up.  I would also start of with a bit of steel a bit thicker that 3/8th as you will reduce that to swarf very fast :bugeye:.  In passing the dials are direct reading, if you put on 1mm of cut it will reduce the diameter by 2mm and at low spped it will.

Graham
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Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 04:56:18 PM »
Thanks for the input, guys. Very helpful to start things off with them.

I started with the 8.35mm unknown steel rod as this is the only few pieces lying around that no reversing of chuck jaw is required. When I was experimenting with brass, I changed the power feed gear to 0.14mm/min, which gives a nice finish. The steel rod seems rather tough, the finishing was rough at that feed. Spindle speed was set to 1400rpm. Will test with slower feed and than slower speed to see the effect.

I also noticed that with the steel rod extending out from the chuck about 150mm with tailstock support, I get a turn of 0.02mm.  Is this error considered big? When test on the 20mm dia brass extended out by only 30mm, I have same measurements at both ends (as far as my Mitutoyo digital venier caliper can measure).

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 12:50:14 AM »
I also noticed that with the steel rod extending out from the chuck about 150mm with tailstock support, I get a turn of 0.02mm.  Is this error considered big? When test on the 20mm dia brass extended out by only 30mm, I have same measurements at both ends (as far as my Mitutoyo digital venier caliper can measure).

Hi Wong, not quite sure I understand but are you saying that on the steel rod you turned the tailstock end was 0.02mm smaller than the headstock end?  In otherwords it has a long shallow taper.  If so did you use the revolving centre or the fixed on the support the end?  The revolving centre may have a very small amount of play in the bearings which could lead to the effect you have.  If you used the fixed centre then perhaps you need to check that the tailstock barrel is clean and the tailstock itself is also not sitting on a bit of dirt on the ways.

I'm not sure what the limits of accuracy should be between centres as Proxxon onky give for the run-out of the spindle at better than 5/1,000th of a mm.  To test properly what run-out you are getting from headstock to tail you would need to set a long bar between centers and then run a light cut from end to end and then mic both ends.

Graham
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Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 05:27:09 PM »
Hi Wong,

Speaking personally, I would not be too unhappy with a taper 0.02mm (under 0.001")  over 150mm (6").  But I'm easily satisfied!

Like Graham says, it could be due to a tiny amount of play in the revolving centre, if you used one.

Did you use the 3-jaw chuck which comes as standard with the lathe? Nearly all 3-jaw chucks display some runout, often varying with the diameter of work being held. That would tend to produce a taper with its smaller end near the chuck. If that is the cause, I think most folk would be satisfied with a 3-jaw chuck which had such a small amount of runout.

Graham's suggestion of a test cut between centres would avoid any errors introduced by the chuck.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 04:03:56 AM »
Hi guys,

My replies were lost for whatever reason.

The smaller portion is at the headstock end. Further tests were done on steel stock of 25mm diameter with 50mm sticking out of the chuck. I've 0.02mm smaller at headstock.

The next piece was 9.5mm of unknown steel again, this time supportrd by revolving centre. I've the same 0.02mm but it widened to 0.06mm as the stock was reduced to less than 8.5mm. Total length of stock was 150mm, of which 100mm was turned.

One other thing I notice; at 0.25mm depth of cut, 1400 rpm for the thinner stock and 330 rpm for the 25mm. Cutting noise was terribly loud. Up to 0.2mm was ok. I wanted to try greater depth of to 0.5mm but have no courage to proceed fearing that something bad may happen.

Regards,
Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 05:17:42 AM »
Hi Wong,

Inaccuracy in the chuck and slight play in the revolving centre will both produce the same effect – the stock will taper down towards the headstock.

As to the noise when you increase the depth of cut, your “unknown steel” could be the problem. Also, you haven’t told us whether you are using a carbide or HSS cutter. Looking at the cutting speeds in the chart you showed earlier, they are for HSS.

Obviously, a blunt tool will cause problems. So will one which has been ground to the wrong angles. The cutting edge should be on centre height, or 3 or 4 degrees above it, but in that case the angle will increase as you take successive cuts, so adjustment may be needed as you go on.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 05:33:57 AM »
Hi Andy,

I'm using carbide insert tool.  Tried HSS, didn't like the finishes. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Regards,
Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 07:35:05 AM »
I rarely use carbide, Wong, so can't offer any suggestions, other than saying that speeds recommended for carbide are often four or five times faster than for HSS.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 09:57:34 AM »
I'll experiment with different speed with the power feed at different cut depth some more.  Will try to get some "known" steel so that I can be more consistent in the future.  Now that school and work started, shop time will get lesser and lesser after the Lunar New Year, which is towards the end of this month.

One thing I like about this bigger lathe (relative to my sherline) is when facing.  When I've 40 to 50mm sticking out of the chuck jaws and stock is about 20 to 25mm in diameter, even at 0.25mm per pass, I don't have the stock flying out of the chuck.  I was so worried about that happening when I did my first face cut.  I believe I'll get myself comfortable after a few sessions.  When feeding under power, I was so afraid that the tool crash into the chuck initially.

Thanks for all the help I get from this forum.

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 12:28:07 PM »
Hi Wong

I think the run-out you have on the chuck is well within the specs for a Rohm self centering chuck and the only way you will get better without surgery is to use a 4 jaw independant.  One point mind is that the chuck can be installed in any one of three positions.  What you can try it ot remove the chuck, make sure the backplate and register are very clean, and refit it one hole rotated in th back plate.  Do this three times and check the run-out each time.  When you find the best setting it was practice to put a light pop mark on the chuck with a matching one on the back plate so that when you refit at any time you pick the best postion.

Graham

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Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 05:54:26 PM »
Thanks Graham.

I'm looking forward to get a 4 jaw chuck and a collet chuck but have to do that after the lunar New Year or later to stay under teh radar... I've a set of ER32 collets bought with a chuck that is threaded 3/4-16 for my sherline sometimes back. Didn't use the chuck as the run-out is ridiculously high.  Bought a metric set of ER32 from other source (CTC Tools) but have not used them once.  Littlemachineshop.com sells ER32 chuck at USD199, a better looking price than the Proxxon collet chuck.

I didn't know that turning the 3 jaw in the base plate would have effect on run-out.  Will try it out and measure the effect.

Regards,
Wong.

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 06:50:35 PM »
Wong, ER chucks tend to be cheaper in the UK than the US. Many guys in the US find it more economical to buy from the UK, despite the higher shipping costs. Check these to see if the register diameter and the PCD of the fixing bolts would suit your spindle flange: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Lathe-Collet-Chucks

One from Proxxon will probably be more accurate, though if a cheap one has unacceptable runout, it is not too difficult to re-bore the taper.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 09:16:46 AM »
Andy, I'll check that out.  Thanks for pointing me to the site and your suggestions.  Will find out what's required on mine before making the move. Want to avoid boring taper at this moment till I've more knowledge.

Regards,
Wong

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 11:30:09 AM »
I'm giving up my search to find out the info on the Proxxon 3 jaw chuck online.  I'll go measure them in the next session.

The downside of getting a Proxxon is the lack of information on the machine.  Can be rather frustrating.

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 12:14:49 PM »
I have to admit there is not much info on Proxxon in English  :coffee: although I suspect there may be more in German.

A word about the proxxon collects and why I have not bought them.  Unlike ER collects they are not double slit so the clamping capacity will be restricted to the nominal bore unlike the 1mm range of the ER's.  I have bought two sets of ER's the ER20 with MT 2 holder for use in the tail stock and ER25 with a MT 3 holder for use in the headstock both from HK.  I have yet to unpack them and even check if the runout is within the specified range or not.  I eventually plan to make a holder (I have bought a spare nut from CTC) bored directly on the lathe to ensure max accuracy.  This will be a fraction of the cost of the Proxxon ones and more versitile (I hope).  CTC have ER 32 MT 3 holders for a relatively small cost that may make some sence until you want to try to make your own holder.

Graham
Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional

Offline wongster

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Proxxon PD400
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 05:51:17 PM »
I changed the Subject to reflect the general discussion.

I bought the ER16 with MT1 for the Sherline with collets.  These are very convenient like you have mentioned.  I can't remember what I clocked the last time but the runout is pretty decent.  Wanted to buy a set for the Proxxon but has no idea if the drawbar bolt head can clear the small space at the gear compartment.  So I thought of getting those that are mounted on the backplate.

Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 06:58:19 PM »
Wong, changing the subject line doesn't seem to have worked.

The big advantage of bolt-on ER collet chucks is that they leave the spindle bore unobstructed. Long stock can be passed through the collet and spindle.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2012, 07:22:52 PM »
It didn't  :Doh:

That's what I thought.  Thanks for confirming.

I just did a quick measurement of the registration of the backplate.  Its 70mm (or more of 69.98mm) across and 2.35mm deep.  The one on the Rohm 3-jaw chuck is deeper.  So I guess the circumference of the registration boss and the outer face keep the chuck square to the spindle.  Measuring the PCD is a little more tricky (or rather, I've no confident of the number being right).  The bolts are rather loose when turned into the backplate.  From one bolt to another I get 71.61mm (after zero'ing out the caliper with the diameter of the bolt).  Some Trigo have to be used next.  I've to start revising on the subject.  It has been more than 20 years back...

Regards,
Wong

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2012, 01:30:59 AM »
Wong, changing the subject line doesn't seem to have worked.

Now fixed.


Tim
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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2012, 03:17:52 AM »
Thanks Tim.

Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2012, 03:33:46 AM »
Hi Wong,

It's been 50 years since I bumped into trig, so I use this http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/index.htm

If you click on Sectors, your measurement will be the chord and the angle will be either 120 or 90, depending whether you have 3 bolts or 4. That will give you the radius, which should be doubled for the PCD.

I think clearance is allowed in the holes in the spindle flange to ensure that the register locates the chuck, without being influenced by any tiny errors in the positions of the bolts or the holes. My lathe came with M8 bolts and 9mm holes.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2012, 03:51:25 AM »
SomehowI suspect that you are expecting too much in the way of accuracy from your lathe. 
Initially, you set off with problems with stiff handles or dials and came up with a question about the fit of a pair of sliding parts- and then came up with a solution of - Using grease! Sorry but the correct lubricant for sliding parts is slideways oil or even ordinary motor oil-- but not grease.
Again, you did this 'improvement' with the feed screws. Sorry, the slides are always done by removing the feed screws, oiling and feeling them slide - to suit your way of working. Then, the feed screws and nuts are replaced- and tested again for stiffness, backlash and so on.
If, as others and yourself mentioned, there was some doubt about fit and 'faked' scraping, you should have blued the matting parts in- and got a scraper out and got them to fit. You may have had to scrape the gibs or even had to peg them- but you would have a nicely adjusted lathe.
This would have given you a lathe which would be nice to quickly clean at each maintenance session. Because this is what everyone has to do-- or should do!

Let us turn to three jaw chucks now. Few lathes possess chucks which are really accurate.  You can expect them to hold perhaps 0.003" TIR but to get better, you involve greater expense in having to get something like a Griptru.  If you cannot afford one, then you use a independent four jaw or perhaps collets if the work is small enough.

Now, you have some difficulty in fitting retro-fitting a three jaw backplate. Initially, the backplate should be machined to get an accurate face and then addressed to take new chuck.  As the chuck is going to have an element of inaccuracy, you should clock - not on the jaws but on the outside of the chuck body- and after all the mechanism has been removed- and everything ready and cleaned.  The bolt holes or tappings follow and only after the lot has been de-burred, assembled.

As far as the collets are concerned, you only get what you pay for.

Above all, you should check your own work- step by step- and make each correction and adjustment as you go along.

I have no doubt that others will find room to criticise these comments but it should suffice to say that I run an very old Myford Super 7 which had been abused and used on woodwork. The bed was re-ground professionally and the fit of the saddle had to be re-built with Turcite.
The smaller items were scraped in by hand and the things like broken and sheared gears were machined and fitted.
Unashamedly, this is not perfect and some parts could do with replacing but there is always difficulty in getting spares- or finding time to make them.

I hope that my comments might be of some use to you.

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2012, 05:37:43 AM »
Thanks for your comments. It is helpful.

In fact, I'm not expecting anything as I don't know what's too much or within norm. I do property loans for a living in a bank. No background or any training in mechanical stuff. Like many others, this is a hobby. I'm learning as I go.

After reading the post on using way oil, I wiped off the grease and use the way oil I bought from A2Z CNC. I wanted to remove the feed screws but that seem impossible; one side has a key for the handwheel that blocks coming out from that direction and the other side is blocked by the shoulder (may be using wrong term here) of the feed screw). Same arrangement for both the compound slide & cross slide. I wonder how they put that in in the first place. I'll look at them later tonight.

I don't think I know and am confident enough to scape. I believe with my current level of knowledge (or lack of), the part will no longer be usable. I'll start looking at scraping when I get my basic out if the way.

The ER32 was mentioned because I've full set of the collets bought something back. The ER32 MT1 chuck I bought from US has too great a runout to be of good use. I kind of like the use of the ER collet than the 4 jaw chuck.  This is from the prospective of a beginner.

Keep your comment coming.

Regards,
Wong



Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2012, 05:46:42 AM »
Wong, the keys will probably pull out if you can get a good grip on them with pliers. They will then fly across the room, never to be seen again.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2012, 05:51:23 AM »
Andy, I got to careful then. Better do it during the day where I'm probably more awake than after a long day of work.

Thanks for prempting me.

Regards,
Wong

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
Hi Wong,

The attached may be of help wrt the PD400 spindle flange dimensions...

Cheers,

Vijay

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2012, 10:47:09 AM »
Hi Vijay,

Thank you...

I got the OD of the register alright but the PCD computed based on the length of 2 bolts was off.  The figure I got was 81.xxxmm.  Thats the reason I don't trust my measurement of existing parts... till I've more experience.

There is this 0.5mm dimension on the first drawing under the word MK3.  Any idea what is that?

Those ER32 collet chuck from Arc Euro, LMS, and others I found have PCD of less than 83mm.  Got to find harder...

Regards,
Wong

Offline devheadbot

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2012, 11:36:17 AM »
Hi Wong,

On the 0.5mm dimension, unfortunately no.

I suspect you might have a bit of a tough time locating a collet chuck with a PCD of 83mm.  While I was researching the PD400, I too wasn't too happy with the Proxxon collets (like Graham mentioned above) prompting me to consider using ER collets from Arc, LMS, et al. Needing the spindle dimensions to identify a suitable collet chuck I contacted Proxxon who responded promptly and efficiently with the pdf I posted.  And, while I don't have the original mail from Proxxon handy, I seem to recollect them mentioning something on the lines of the spindle dimensions (register, pcd) being unique to them. After a bit of searching unsuccessfully for a collet chuck that matched I pretty much gave up on it. That was a bit of a turn off!

I'm still without a lathe  :bang: but I hope this is of some help to you.

Vijay

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2012, 11:48:16 AM »
Hi Vijay,

It is definitely usefully; at least I won't be buying the wrong thing (I thought 82mm PCD type would fit).

Regards,
Wong

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2012, 12:46:06 PM »
There is some information on the old Chris Heapy site which may be helpful.
OK, you'll have to move from the Japanese site to get it. There is a lot more information there for other problems as well.

In addition, the late Martin Cleeve got the matter sorted out to tenths of thous by making slotted holes in the back plate.
Again, the late Professor Dennis  Chaddock adopted this as well.

Maybe a re-think?

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As a sort of post script, Lathes.co.uk also has an article.

Regards

F O'M
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:21:03 PM by Fergus OMore »

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2012, 11:19:23 PM »
Thanks for the leads.  I did a search and found Chris Heapy site.  Will go through the articles.

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2012, 12:39:54 PM »
In addition, the late Martin Cleeve got the matter sorted out to tenths of thous by making slotted holes in the back plate.
Again, the late Professor Dennis  Chaddock adopted this as well. Maybe a re-think?

The Proxxon is a front mount with tapped holes in the spindle flange (it is integral to the spindle unlike a Myford) so cannot be slotted.

Wong I would suggest that you refrain from trying rebuild your new lathe as you will do more damage than good.  Clean off any grease with a small amount of kerosene and a paintbrush then lightly oil. With respect to the guy who made the comment forget about scraping the bed the lathe as it stands is more than a match for anything you are likely to do at this stage of your hobby.  Decide on what you want to make, steam engine, IC engine or whatever and give it a go.  If when you try to make your project the accuracy of the machice is not good enough then that is the time to start to try to tune your lathe.  Not now and probably not ever.

Regards

Graham
Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2012, 01:08:40 PM »
Hi Graham,

Roger that.  No intention at this point as it is a new machine.  Besides, I have not the skill/knowledge nor the courage to "improve" the lathe.  I'm so far quite satisfied with the slides after playing around with the gibs.  Will not attempt to remove the feed screws too; not easy to find things that fly off in a little room almost fully filled.

I've started with my first simple project to get acquainted with the lathe - a tailstock locking lever of sort.  It doesn't have the nice looks of those I've seen on the web, just a simple piece with M8 threads and a taller head for a tommy bar.  I chose to do this so as to also learn how to thread on the machine.  A simple air compressor type engine will be next, but after I finished up with the leadscrew conversion on my CNC mill.

I do have a question after finishing a session turning down an unknown steel rod from 22mm to 13mm.  How deep can I go per pass for steel? I've been going at 0.2mm after hearing the strain while cutting at 0.3mm.  Wanted to go further but didn't want the stock to fly at me... (something that happen frequently while I was turning using the Sherline lathe.  The speed used was 660 rpm with power feed set at 0.07mm/rev.  The stock was about 45mm out of the chuck jaws unsupported.

Regards,
Wong

Offline Miner

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2012, 02:20:21 PM »
Wong,
Whenever possible it's better by far to support the workpiece with the tailstock and a dead or live center. Second best would be the fixed steady. If your having problems with your workpiece coming out of the chuck on any lathe then it's time to reasses your working methods. That certainly isn't normal and it would put a massive strain on the chuck jaws and scroll with possibly permanent damage done to the chuck.

While you can learn a lot from these forums, There's no sustitute for a decent book. I'm going to recomend one that you'll learn a vast amount from. It really should be read by anyone who owns machine tools no matter what their skill level is. "The Model Engineers Workshop Manual" by George H. Thomas ISBN 1-85761-000-8

This book not only gives the how to do things, But in a lot of cases gives the reasons why things should be done this way.

Pete

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2012, 03:39:23 PM »
Actually, I have already recommended GHT via the Chris Heapy site which contains a lot of what Thomas made.
Again, much of my  'recommendations' are bits out of either MEWM or  his Workshop Techniques.

It's rather interesting to mention that Bill Bennett, the Editor, was instrumental in me getting my first Super7B


Offline Miner

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2012, 04:15:09 PM »
Well there you go Wong, You now have two recomendations about the same book. I've said this before on another forum, But we as hobbiests sometimes take machining as a hobby far too lightly as far as our education about what were trying to accomplish.

Consider the fact that anyone today entering the machining trades as a professional, Then at least 4 years minimum are required as an apprentice just to gain an entry level position as a fully qualified machinist. That apprentiship requires both studying book theroy, classroom time, and hands on continous practice, and then yearly testing. Yet some of the perceptions on forums like these are that you just easily learn everything by trial and error. It's rarely mentioned, But buying as many books as you can and studying them is just another part of what's required in this hobby. I've seen many projects on various forums that even some professional machinists would have trouble duplicating. There's no doubt in my mind that these hobbiests spent a lot of time and effort to educate themselves as much as possible.

Now if anyone can provide a logical argument about just why Norman and myself are wrong about this, Then I'd very much like to hear it.

Pete

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2012, 04:58:09 PM »

Consider the fact that anyone today entering the machining trades as a professional, Then at least 4 years minimum are required as an apprentice just to gain an entry level position as a fully qualified machinist. That apprentiship requires both studying book theroy, classroom time, and hands on continous practice, and then yearly testing. Yet some of the perceptions on forums like these are that you just easily learn everything by trial and error. It's rarely mentioned, But buying as many books as you can and studying them is just another part of what's required in this hobby. I've seen many projects on various forums that even some professional machinists would have trouble duplicating. There's no doubt in my mind that these hobbiests spent a lot of time and effort to educate themselves as much as possible.

Now if anyone can provide a logical argument about just why Norman and myself are wrong about this, Then I'd very much like to hear it.

Pete


Very well put Pete ,,,,,,,,,,,,, :thumbup:     

First place i go for information when faced with an engineering problem or looking for ideas   is my collection of  engineering books  :coffee:



Rob

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2012, 09:23:10 PM »
Hi Pete,

Noted your comments.  I did a search for the book and finally get it over at Hemingway Kits (hemingwaykits.com).  Lots of links are dead or books out of stock.  For GBP23 excluding shipping,  the price is right.  The first link I found has it at over GBP100.

The reason I bypass these books (bought a few of the Workshop series) in the past was because most of such books are tied in with a certain brand or kind of machine.  I only had the Sherline and therefore found that some stuff weren't appaent to me.  As someone new, I get confused.

I didn't use a tailstock for this job because the last time I tried on a test piece of brass, I've an error of 0.06mm in about 100mm of turned length (headstock side is larger).  Will be playing with the tailstock after I completed this part.  Want to do some work first to keep the momentum going.

I believe the stock flying out of the sherline chuck was due to my ignorance of what was needed.  I am rather gentle when feeding in the tool now and start cranking faster when the feel is right.  As those Sherline owners kept telling me, work within the envelope of these machines.

I've been reading online and using the forums to learn about machinging from scratch.  Some views are conflicting to the others I received.  To me, these are common as different people have varying background and experiences.  Arguments are good if done cool headedly; very constructive as it gives quite a lot of insights to the topic at hand. Heated argument turns things ugly.  The most common topic I often read that insults were exchanged at later part is "Windows Vs Linux".  I always like to think "do what you think work best for you".

I would like to thank each one of you here that chim in to help a newbie with a new machine out.  Keep up the good spirit!!!

 :nrocks:

Regards,
Wong

Offline Pete.

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2012, 09:36:50 PM »
Get the book - I have 'how to run a lathe' and 'Screwcutting in the lathe'  - but also get stuck in! Getting comfortable and familiar with your lathe is just as important, and will help the theory to 'make sense' in a way you can really relate to if you've had the problems and struggled with them.

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2012, 09:44:24 PM »
Sure Pete.  Lots of reading from now.  My elder girl has just started her secondary school education (age 13, in case the term used is different).  I'm like going back to school with her...  :D

Regards,
Wong

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2012, 12:33:28 PM »
Hi guys,

I was considering getting the ER32 collet chuck with MT3 shank from CTC Tools but couldn't figure out how to use a drawbar on this lathe.  the bore at the end of the spindle is 20.5mm and If I make a draw bar with a big head, I've to leave the gear box compartment open as the box will be in the way of the drawbar bolt head.

This got me to wonder; what can the MT3 bore be use for then?

Regards,
Wong

Offline Miner

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2012, 05:23:38 PM »
Wongster,
Depending on your own thoughts and future needs? You might be better off building a spindle adapter that uses the ER-32 collets and the collet nut. This allows longer work to pass thru the collet and use the hollow spindle on your lathe. Without that your somewhat limited to short work pieces or using a tailstock live/dead center or the fixed steady. My own opinion is that it's a much better setup. There's numerous examples showing how people designed and built them on this and many other forums.

With anything inserted into your lathes MT 3 spindle taper it's an absolute requirement that both the male and female tapers are spotless. MT's work by a wedgeing action. A .001 piece of swarf or dirt will reduce that holding power and possibly damage your internal spindle taper.

Dead centers can be used in your headstock while turning between centers. Which by the way is the most accurate way of turning work if it has to be removed and rotated end for end for further work. Even more accurate? Turn up a piece of scrap material while it's held in the 3 jaw with a 60 degree included angle that matches your center drills. With work bolted to your cross slide, Then drill chucks, Boreing heads etc can be also used in the heastock taper.

I know exactly just how tough it is to not get impatient and start building parts, But with my own hindsite experience? I'd highly recommend reading at least once that GHT book before ordering any accesories or even going much further with your new lathe. You'll be far more educated and have a much better ability to judge exactly what you want to do. In the long run that will save you money or possibly even permanent damage to your equipment.

Pete

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2012, 06:19:18 PM »
Hi Pete,

The book should arrive sometime this week, I hope.  I wrote to Hemingway Kits towards the end of last week to check the status of my order as I only received a note saying that my order has been received.  I was told that it was sent out on the 10th and to allow 7 to 10 days for delivery.

I wanted to try to turn between centers last weekend but didn't have a face plate and a lathe dog for this lathe (I've them for my Sherline).  I was checking out the Proxxon's pics on their "Centre Turning Accessories". They're sold as a set with a faceplate with 30mm bore, a drive pin that screw onto the headstock flange and faceplate, with 2 reducing bushings (30/20mm and 30 to 15mm), and 2 centers (MT2 and MT3).  This looks like a project I can add to my list.

On the use of the MT3 taper, you mentioned this:
"Turn up a piece of scrap material while it's held in the 3 jaw with a 60 degree included angle that matches your center drills. With work bolted to your cross slide, Then drill chucks, Boreing heads etc can be also used in the heastock taper.", which I don't quite understand.  Can you elaborate?  Also, can I hold drill chucks and Boring head in the headstock taper without using a drawbar of sort to hold them to the headstock?

When I use a drill chuck in my Sherline headstock (with MT1 taper), a drawbar holds the drill chuck.  With the PD400, I don't know how a drawbar can be used with the 20.5mm spindle bore.  I've the 2 pics here to illustrate what I mean.

The spindle bore can be seen through this hole on the gearbox cover:


With the gearbox opened:



Regards,
Wong

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2012, 06:44:58 PM »
Have you a faceplate? If you, that is a rather big catchplate. If you haven't, use the three jaw with a centre in it.

Hope you enjoy your GHT.book

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2012, 06:57:04 PM »
No, Norman.  I don't have one yet.  I can order one.  The Centre Turning Accessories sold by proxxon are not that expensive.  Just the waiting time for the fulfillment of the order.

Maybe I'll go get a MT3 centre later.

Regards,
Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2012, 07:39:53 PM »
Hi Wong,

The drawbar: If the hole in the gear cover B is ~3mm larger than the outside diameter of the spindle, you can make a nut with a boss projecting from it. The boss will have two diameters, one being about 24.5mm to pass through the hole and push on the end of the spindle, and the second about 21mm to fit inside the spindle bore to locate the nut.

If the hole in the gear cover is too small for that, either enlarge it to around 25mm or make a nut as above, but with the hex section of the nut smaller than the hole. This will allow you to tighten the drawbar and then close the gear cover.

Or do what many of us would do - run the lathe with the cover open, and keep your hands clear of the gears and pulleys. I think you had a Sherline, and they don't have a cover over the pulleys. If you still have all your fingers after using that lathe, you will probably not lose any of them with the Proxxon.

Andy
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 02:52:11 AM by andyf »
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Miner

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2012, 08:29:44 PM »
Wongster,

With a MT 3 arbour and drill chuck in the spindle, Work fixtured to the cross slide and at the correct elevation, Your only drilling into the work. That end thrust helps to keep the MT taper tight. Using a MT-3 type milling chuck to do milling that would put side loads on your taper and chuck would require a drawbar. After looking at your pictures, You could machine something that fits the outer end and inner bore on the left hand end of your spindle like a stepped washer. Buy a long enough bolt that matches the drawbar threads in your MT arbour and then machine the bolt head to thin it enough so that your lathe door will open. You also DO NOT WANT TO TIGHTEN THAT DRAWBAR UP REALLY TIGHT. There's no need. That drawbar is only to prevent the MT from moving out and becoming loose. The tighter you have the drawbar then the tighter your wedgeing that male MT in place. That would then require very hard hammering on the end of the slightly loosened drawbar to push the MT out enough so it's released from the bore. All that hammering is REALLY bad for the lathes spindle bearings.

As far as the scrap metal and machine it to at that 60 degree angle? That's the most accurate way so you'll have a point machined true to the lathes center of rotation. It's been machined while rotating within the spindles own bearings. But!!!!! It has to be machined and left in place. As soon as you remove it from the chuck you'll have to slightly remachine it true each time you want to use it again.

Work can be held on the lathes cross slide and be machined in the exact same way as it would in a normal vertical milling machine. All you have is a small, short travel, vertical mill lying on it's back. Work size, table travel, and rigidity is obviously far less than a compareable weight vertical milling machine. A proper lathe milling attachment that fit's your lathe would give you an easy way to set the work to the correct elevation. But it's not a great substitute for a proper milling machine.

I mentioned the use of drill chucks, milling chucks, boreing heads, etc with a MT-3 arbour as a few examples because you had asked what that headstock bore could be used for.

Believe me, After reading thru GHT's book even once, Then all of this will make far more sense and be much more understandable to you.

I've edited this to add,
That GHT book isn't the only information you'll ever need. I'm certainly not trying to complicate the issues or sidetrack them off elsewhere. But machining as a single subject even at the hobbiest level is so vast that you'll never learn it all. That's what keeps it interesting. If you stick with it you'll never quit learning.

Pete
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 09:00:34 PM by Miner »

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2012, 04:54:44 AM »
Might I add a little bit to Pete's excellent comments?
Initially, when one bought a lathe it came with a pair of centres and a faeceplate as STANDARD. None of this rubbish about 'get a three jaw chuck' and then the rest will follow. Frankly, nothing can be further from the truth. The next bit of the armoury is a FOUR JAW INDEPENDENT CHUCK.
With either a faceplate or a 4 jaw, you can hold a drill which you can with three jaw but you can hold round or square stuff, make a boring bar, hold odd shapes for facing and a multitude of tasks like making nuts and bolts, tool holders and so on.

Before moving to 3 jaw stuff, probably the next thing is a drill chuck or two and a heap of Morse taper blanks. True, you are making your lathe into a drilling machine and as Pete says, a milling machine. In all honesty, the use of a lathe to work between centres is the last thing on most minds. Think carefully, but if you are going to work 'between centres' you are going to need a fixed steady and probably a running one and - some means of slowing your lathe down to screwcut- without having a heart attack!  You can make the steadies with either a faceplate or a four jaw but you are going to be very skillful to do it all on a three jaw.
 Maybe I'll get banned or burned as heretic or something really exciting.  Or get a lecture on the merits of carbide tooling or even parting off. These will really be a treat.

We'll see. Meantime, enjoy GHT.

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2012, 10:11:37 AM »
Lots of info. Letting them settling into my head.  May need some files to thin the outer shell for more to pass through...

Andy, the gap between the spindle end and the cover is rather small.  I think I can file the plastic thing (any name for this protruding circular thing with a hole in it?) shorter to make more space for a thicker bolt head.



I believe the bolt head can bear against the end of the spindle though it only measures about 1.5mm in thickness?



The hole in the cover is almost 25mm but the alignment is off to one side (spindle bore and the hole in the cover are not concentric). By the way, is the "nut" you mentioned the head of the bolt of the drawbar or it is really a nut to be fastened onto a rod making the drawbar?

Pete, the Sherline lathe has MT1 spindle which I mounted tools, collet chuck (ER16) etc.  Except when using the faceplate with dead center in the spindle, I use the supplied drawbar.  I asked about how can I do with the MT3 spindle bore on the proxxon lathe because I couldn't figure out how to use a drawbar on it.  Thanks for clearing the part on its possible use without the drawbar.

I've 2 Sherline mills (one CNC'd and one for manual work).  May not do vertical milling on the lathe that often unless when need arises.

Norman, I just ordered this afternoon (SG time of course  :D) a 4-jaw independent chuck and the centre turning accessories.  When I bought my lathe, I also purchased the fixed and follower rest (or traveling steady per proxxon website).  I did cut external threads on a piece of steel to make a bolt with a short length of stainless (stainless because that was the only piece in my box with close enough diameter) sticked into the bolt head to make a locking lever for the tailstock.  Now I don't have to search for the hex key to lock or unlock the tailstock.

I'll continue to look for simple projects to do to get the basic right before moving to more complex stuff.  The collet chuck for ER32 collets (those that mount onto the backplate of the lathe) will be one I would like to attempt.  Most importantly, I want to learn clockmaking.

Regards,
Wong




Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2012, 11:31:33 AM »
Good news about getting steadies and a 4 jaw chuck.

When you get your copy of GHT you will find lots of small tools described which make your future machining so much simple. Some of the  dimensions of drawings will apply to a Myford with a 7" swing but if you photocopy , you can re-dimension them to suit your lathe. Sort of use typewriter opaque fluid and write in the new figures. I do a lot of photocopying pages and put the sheets in transparent covers. You will, of course, do your own thing and discover methods  for yourself.

Miner( Pete) mentioned work bolted to the saddle- and I agree. The old hands, including GHT, had a chunk of steel or cast iron that bolted on the saddle and they peppered it with holes, sometimes tapped, sometimes bolted to hold work securely and to mill or drill or tap from the headstock. When the bit of metal was too rough with holes, they simply got a new bit of metal- and made more holes.

Again, I would make a rear parting tool which GHT describes. Contrary to 'other opinions' GHT developed and developed an old design which I have traced to a gent called Ian Bradley who wrote extensively and wrote amongst other books, one on the Myford 7. Perhaps you should have a look at the Chris Heapy site which shows some of the Thomas work.  OK, you will find that Heapy's site is no longer in use but a Japanese worker has sort of brought it back for reference. Actually, I'm making a variant of Thomas's 'mandrel handle' because I made up one, moved my home and workshop and changed my lathe and- well, felt a change to having a neat one was important.

You have my E-mail address and I look forward to comments or questions.

Offline Miner

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2012, 12:00:42 PM »
Wong,
I can't help you with any information about clock making since I know less than nothing about it. I believe a gentleman by the name of John Wilding? wrote a lot of books about the subject for the hobbiest. Someone else here that's far more knowledgeable could correct my information if it's wrong.

Pete

Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2012, 12:52:06 PM »
Quote
Wongster wrote:
I believe the bolt head can bear against the end of the spindle though it only measures about 1.5mm in thickness?

Yes, that would be perfectly OK. The surface area at the end of the spindle will be around 100 square millimetres, which is plenty.  You won't damage the spindle when you tighten up the drawbar unless you have superhuman strength, and as Pete (Miner) says, it doesn't need to be tightened very much to stop a Morse taper slipping, and overtightening will make it difficult to get the tapered item out of the spindle.

Quote
By the way, is the "nut" you mentioned the head of the bolt of the drawbar or it is really a nut to be fastened onto a rod making the drawbar?

Normally, a drawbar is in the form of a long bolt, so I should have referred to the head of the bolt. Sorry I called it a nut; that is because I was forced to use separate nuts on two drawbars (M10 and 3/8" respectively) which I made for my milling machine.

Andy



Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2012, 06:14:40 PM »
Norman, thanks.  I will.  I'm rather up to date with my blog, when I had time in the shop.  Each post is usually written about a session I had, mistakes and all - I don't like to hide my ignorance; If I screwed up, I'm honest about it.

Pete, I heard of that name.  I bought 4 books and 2 DVDs from WR Smith on clockmaking.  Will have to postpone this till later.  Some topics covered are a little tough for me at this moment.  I usually buy when I see things I like, and keep them till I'm ready to work on them in case I forgotten where to get them or they went out of production.  This is what I did late last year.  I cleared up the last 5 Casio Financial Calculator FC200 (the old model) that is no longer in production.  The shop had 5 pieces left and I took them all even though I've 2 in use.  I always have 2 in my working bag and would like to have 1 in the office and some spares at home.  The aluminium backing tends to go out of shape causing bad contacts in the buttons.  I make a living using this model for the last 17 years so might as well keep some spares around.  Cost me quite a bit as there are no longer any market price...

Andy, no apologies needed.  I just want to also learn the lingo for more effective communication.  I wonder why Proxxon put a plastic hole in a manner that would hinder the use of a drawbar.  Measuring the required length would be a challenge.  I'll order a ER32 collet chuck with MT3 shank from CTC Tools and use it as reference to cut the internal taper to make the collet chuck that mount on the backplate.  Been reading online in this forum and other sites on how that was done by others.  Do you have pics showing how they're put together?  It may be easier to use a threaded rod and use nuts at the other end.  Don't have to worry about measuring and finding bolt of specific length.

Regards,
Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2012, 06:43:48 AM »
Hi Wong,

It would be easier to use threaded rod. I assume that you will need an M10 thread. The head will be so large that making the drawbar out of bar stock would waste a lot of material. To avoid having a separate nut, you could make a big M10 nut, and experiment to find where it needs to be to get the drawbar to the correct length before cutting off the excess rod and welding or brazing the nut permanently in place.

Making a bolt-on collet chuck shouldn't be too difficult. I don't think you need to buy one with a Morse taper shank to copy. The taper is 8 degrees (16 degrees included angle) as shown on the drawings here http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collets-Collet-Chucks . Test the taper with a collet into which you have inserted a bar of the maximum size it is supposed to hold (for example, a 6mm bar in a 6 to 5.5mm collet) so the collet can't compress as you push it in. Make the chuck a bit too long, and then trim back the outer end so that about 2mm of the 8 degree taper is projecting. That will allow each ER11 collet to operate over its 0.5mm gripping range, though I see that Arc Euro's largest ER11 collet has a 1mm range (7mm down to 6mm), and that would need to have about 4mm projecting. If you can find a 6.5 down to 6mm collet, that would be better.   

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2012, 09:36:48 AM »
Hi Andy,

I've not tried brazing before.  I've this proxxon torch that can generate heat up to 1200C.  Can this be used?  I tried looking for those bigger cylinder type shown on some pics here and on youtube after reading about brazing and silver soldering here.  Those places I frequent for machining stuff don't carry them.

On setting the angle on using the compound, I'm not sure how accurate is the scale on the lathe.  I tried turning to a 60 degree point (setting the compound at 30 degree).  When I measure the resulting work using a made in china angle gauge, I was off to almost 1 degree.  Is this acceptable for the taper?  I'll see if I can find a more accurate angle gauge and do some more test cut to get a feel.

Regards,
Wong

Edit: I found a simple article on  a robot making site. Saw from the pics that they used similar kind of torch I have.  I'll source for the other things needed when I've time to go shopping.  Likely after the Lunar New Year, which is just next Monday.

Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2012, 10:18:48 AM »
Hi Wong,

1200°C is hot enough for silver soldering/brazing, but the nut will be fairly large, and a small torch might not be enough to get all of it, and the threaded rod inside, up to red heat at the same time.  It would be easier to take the job to a welding shop.

You want the top slide to be as near as you can get it to 8° before cutting the taper, leaving only very fine adjustments to be made (if necessary) after testing with a collet and marking compound.

Use trigonometry and imagine a triangle, angles of 90°, 82° and 8° as its angles. If the side opposite the 82° angle is 100mm long, then the side opposite the 8° angle will be 14.05mm. Bring a plunger dial indicator to bear on the side of your top slide, and adjust the angle of the slide until the indicator shows a movement of 14.05mm when the whole carriage is moved along by 100mm as measured by the leadscrew handwheel and its dial. Be careful to take up any slack between the half nuts and leadscrew as you measure the 100mm. The 100 and 14.05mm can be scaled up or down to suit the length of your top slide. Scale them up if you can, because that will give greater accuracy. 

Of course, this assumes first that the indicator plunger is at 90° to the lathe bed, and secondly that the side of the top slide is parallel to the dovetails within it. The latter seems to be true on my Chinese lathe and it will probably be true on your German machine.

Andy.
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2012, 06:07:04 PM »
Hi Andy,

Thanks.  I'll experiment a little.  Will post pics when I get there.

In my last session in the shop a few days back, I managed to remove the little key on the feed screw of the cross slide.  It wasn't as tightly pushed into its slot as I thought and thank God it didn't fly...  :)  I give the feed screw a thorough clean up with a soft brush (old tooth brush) and apply way oil on it generously.  At the same time, I adjusted the gib screws while sliding the slide in and out without the feed screw installed.  It now slide nicely though I still have movement when I push the slide along the feed screw.  Backlash?  I don't have that on the compound and I ensure that the hand wheel nut are tight enough.  So far it hasn't caused any problem when I did facing cut or parting off.

Regards,
Wong