Author Topic: Ball or Radius cutter  (Read 37766 times)

Offline MadNick

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Ball or Radius cutter
« on: December 18, 2011, 03:12:28 PM »
Evening,

Ive had a busy afternoon - after messing around with some designs for the past few weeks I finally made a start.

The raw materials -



The first step was to drill the mounting holes for the base of the cutter. Unusually my lathe does not have the usual T-Slot arrangement for the cross-slide. Instead I have this -



I carefully double checked my measurements, set up the work in the vertical miller and got rolling. Now, im not going to blame the X scale on my DRO but the four holes I ended up drilling were out, way out.

After checking over the X scale I realised it seemed to 'stall' halfway along - a quick adjustment and it was working correctly. Just to be sure I thought I would try some test cuts on a piece of scrap rather than using another decent piece of steel. I needed to be certain about the distance between centres on the cross-slide mounting holes. I measured up again, using the diameter of the head of the bolt this time rather than their diameter at the thread and got a slightly different set of numbers -  I did a test cut -



Offered up to the cross-slide this was a perfect fit so I setup mark 2 of the base and drilled using the measurements proven on the scrap -



This was a perfect fit on the cross-slide and I was extremely pleased with my effort. Taking time to THINK, measure and check after the first ballsup had paid off.

I need to rework my design as I hadnt factored the diameter of the bolt heads into the diameter for the turret. Ill either countersink these, cut the bolt head back a bit or a combination of both - this is when the T-Slot setup for a cross-slide really helps.

Its easy to forget that 80% of this type of thing is measuring, considering and setting up - only 20% is spent actually doing anything.

Nick


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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 03:45:06 PM »
Good start, this will be an interesting project.  :thumbup:
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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 03:58:52 PM »
Looks like your off to a good start Nick  :thumbup:

Nothing better than a satisfying afternoon in the shop  :dremel:

Rob   

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 04:54:00 PM »
Hi Nick  :wave:

 I've lost count of the times I've miss-calculated things.... Often resulting in a re-design  :borg:  There are literally hundreds! :lol:   

I can tell you these tools are fun to use and make all sorts of interesting shapes possible. I use mine for a huge portion of my "styling" work. I quite simply, love the thing!

Not having seen your design thread yet, I just thought I'd ask while I'm here. What cutting tip you're fitting?
I only ask because I have details about double ended inserts that might fit your requirements?

I would always go with a concave and convex cutting toolpost as it opens up the versatility of the tool.

As said, not seen your design... I'll look after and you might have already answered that?



Looking forward to seeing your progress  :thumbup:






Ralph.
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Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 03:34:13 PM »
Evening,

Not much pysically produced today but my learning has improved tenfold.

It was time to countersink the 4 bolt holes on the base. Realising that I didnt have a datum nor two square adjacent edges I was in trouble right from the start and just couldnt get the piece lined back the same position I had it yesterday - needless to say the countersink effort I made using a knackered 3/4" slot drill was unsuccessful and produced a far from concentric result. I tried to recover with a boring bar which worked but by the time the holes were concentric they were too big and looked stupid.

I decided to get the hacksaw out, start again and not make the same mistakes.

After hacksawing another approximate sized block of steel I clamped and faced one edge in the vertical mill parallel to a 'good' side. Realising that each of the 4 holes was going to need piloting, intermediate and then final drill, intermediate and then full countersink I made sure the piece was square to the milling head on the side I faced earlier and at 90 degrees on both X and Y to the head. Neither hell nor high water was going to make me remove the piece from the clamps until all drill/mill operations were complete.

I did my stuff.





It needs finishing and squaring off but I have produced exactly what I was after and worked to a level of accuracy I am happy with.

The lessons learnt today?

1. Spend as much time as needed to setup the piece
2. Make a note of your datum, preferably a corner of the piece rather than the centre of a hole(!)
3. Work out what operations are needed and try to do them all while the piece is clamped in position
4. Make sure all your tools are in the same place - I used a knackered slot drill when I had a brand new, unused one in another cupboard

I know this is probably 'old hat' to some of the pro's out there but i'm sure it will be of use to other beginners.

Nick

@Ralph, thanks for your comments. I bought a double-ended tip from the local toolshop for £1. It 'looks like' one for use with steel. Either way I intended to use a double ended one because then I can just spin the toolpost round to a cut concave radius and vice versa.

Offline DaveH

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 04:05:35 PM »
Nick,

It looks good to me - Well done :thumbup: :clap:

 :beer:
DaveH
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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 09:06:14 PM »
Morning Nick,

Sounds like you're learning a few valuable lessons the hard way! Been there, still do that  :doh: 

I'd like to say it doesn't happen all that often but I'd be lying! I can plan a job for hours and draw it out, make a list of operations and run it through in my head over and over....often re-arranging the order more than once to aid tool swaps, clamping variants etc and I'll still screw it up! Not too often now. But after 4-5 years you'd think I'd have learned!?  :scratch:

Happily you have the end result. The base you wanted to make.... Personally I'd run the next few (centre hole and recess? ) processes over in my head, all the time thinking "will that work, will I be able to hold it to do the next part and can the machine do what I'm thinking of?"

Then I would probably do what I do and end up making the next part fit the bit I did wrong  :lol:

Seriously though.... The order etc is how I personally do it.  As said, doesn't always work... But it gives me a fighting chance!



That is a serious looking baseplate you have there too! How many steps are you putting in for the turret? I suppose I should be patient and wait and see like everyone else?  :)



Could you throw in the tip with one of your next photo's? Someone will be able to identify it I'm sure? You'll need replacements one day!


Hope that's not too rambly... it's early and my head goes a bit funny after 01:30!  :loco:  :lol:





Ralph.

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Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 01:04:02 PM »
Evening Ralph!

Thanks for your thought provoking comments :)

Quote
That is a serious looking baseplate you have there too

Thats because I am into big balls ;) In all seriousness I think Im heading down the path of the over-engineered solution - that base plate is big enough to use as an anchor!

Its time to rethink my design and see if I can come up with something a little more elegant :)

Quote
Could you throw in the tip with one of your next photo's? Someone will be able to identify it I'm sure? You'll need replacements one day!

Good sales pitch lol, ill get one for you for next time :)

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2011, 08:35:50 PM »
Nick,

Over engineered... No such thing. Merely engineered differently to other versions  :borg:  :)

Elegance... My first and only ball turner is all square edges and rough as a bears asterisk!
Admittedly I went a little over the top with the mini version.... But that wasn't for me.


Sales pitch... Not from me. Unless you are up in the north of Wales/west Cheshire and need a garage door?  :ddb:  (before and after pictures available on request  :lol:  True though!)

Just knowing that I've gone through 8 or so tips. You might need spares?




Have fun! If you want any help...useful or otherwise we will always try  :mmr:





Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline jiihoo

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 07:49:27 AM »
Hi Nick,

You can use one of these to pick up any hole location with reasonable accuracy:
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1240&category=
or the center finder from this set:
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Edge___Centre_Finding_Tools.html#aEFS.

If a little less accuracy is enough, just sharpen the end of a 12 mm rod to a 60 degree angle in the lathe and chuck that in the drill chuck or collet on your mill. It is a lot easier to point with that than a drill bit.

I am watching this thread with interest.

Cheers,

Jari

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2011, 03:59:54 PM »
Thanks for the support fellas.

I made a fresh start on my more elegant solution and fabricated the following using some 1/2" plate I had knocking around -



As you can see I used a boring bar to cut the recess for the centre gently, gently and plenty of collant gave quite a decent cut and square edge - I was pleased with it anyway.

Having purchased some thrust washers I really wanted to see if I could come up with a slightly different solution to everyone else



The washers fit really nicely into the recess that I bored out -



Onto my question. You see the lump of ali in the second picture well I want to use that to make the turret with - its exactly the same length as per my requirements but needs to be taken down from 75mm diameter to 56mm, wants a step putting into it and a 10mm hole drilling and tapping to locate it to the the base.

How would I do this please as I am unable to turn the diameter down the whole length of the piece whilst its in the chuck.

Nick

Offline adamriley

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2011, 06:19:34 PM »
Hello Nick, I recognise that lathe...
Is it a Barker?
I have one too, so will be watching this thread with great interest...


Adam.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 03:17:57 AM by adamriley »

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2011, 08:12:05 PM »
Nick,

In answer to your question (well, my answer anyway)  If you are putting the 10mm hole through the centre then you can make a simple arbour to hold the turret while you machine it.

Use a bar, as chunky as will fit well into the jaws on your lathe and be smaller than the diameter you wish to turn the turret to. make a section of it the same dia as the hole through your turret and then make a thread on the end of that so you can hold the turret on with a nut.

Or a threaded hole all the way through just screw the turret on and start machining. (you might want to centre drill it and use a live centre for support?)

If you were not making the hole all the way through then a threaded hole for a 10mm thread on an arbour would work too, just make sure the arbour has enough meat for the turret to butt upto when screwed on. (larger dia arbour helps for stability without a tailstock centre for support...)

This next bit might sound obvious but I have to say it. Keep the turret on the arbour as close to the chuck as possible to prevent undue flex and subsequent uneven/tapered finishes.   


If you need a crap-o-cad to aid in my ramblings then I'll sort that in the morning. Getting sleepy! (just proof read this and edited it 5 times... my brian is faulty this time of night!)



Looks like you have a plan anyway....  :thumbup:




Have fun,



Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2011, 09:36:06 PM »
Ralph,

Thanks again for your help. I was pretty certain that an arbor was the answer - I suppose that in this case I would want to use a blind hole although cant see why I am unable to use a threaded bar the whole length of the turret.

Ill have another crack at this tomorrow and see what I can produce.

@Adam - good spot and yes it is a Barker, quite rare apparently. I keep wanting to strip it down for a refurbish and a coat of paint but it feels like I need to buy another lathe first in case anything needs to be made - does yours have the original top slide?

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2011, 02:55:05 AM »
The blind hole on mine is used to set the tension between the turret and the base.

You make the fixing screw too long and then fully tighten it, check the play in it, remove the screw and file/emery off a little from the end. Then repeat until there is a full range of movement and no discernible play felt (feel is the only way to set these up IMO. )


Right.... Xmas shopping here I come!  :loco:    :lol:  Luckily only 2-3 little things from one shop left to buy  :ddb: 




Hope that today's endeavours go to plan  :dremel:  (I'm in my workshop later trying to make a few other Xmas gifts before 15:00! Wish me luck  :borg:)






Ralph.
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Offline adamriley

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2011, 03:00:32 AM »
Nick, I have the original topslide. The nut has more backlash than I care to admit though...
The lathe, at present, is original other than the 3 phase motor I've fitted, and the QCTP I'll be fitting next week.
I cannot for the life of me though figure out the backgear system.
Unfortunately I'm missing a LOT of the changewheels, and no 4 jaw chuck.
I might have to try turning a backplate at some time in the near future, and picking up a chuck.
Have you done any mods to the lathe at all?

Adam.

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2011, 08:34:03 AM »
Afternoon,

Ive spent the morning making lots of tinsel out of ali.

Ralph's arbor suggestion in use -



The turret fitted -



I am really pleased with the results - the mandrel really made it all work for me.

Re the countersunk bolt to supply tension between the base and the Turret - the one I have is clearly too short, looks like ill have to wait until after Christmas now but I will try your suggested method of making it fit. In the meantime I can start on the toolpost and swivel arm.

It would be great to get it working before I return to work when my freetime will be siginificantly reduced.

Adam, have PMed you about the Barker.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Nick

Offline 75Plus

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2011, 09:58:21 AM »
Nick, do not forget that you need to keep swarf out of the thrust bearing.

Joe

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2011, 05:41:22 AM »
Thanks Joe,

Im working on a collar for that :)

Nice bike BTW - is that you?

Nick

Offline 75Plus

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2011, 10:26:00 AM »
  :offtopic:

 Yep, that's me. The bike was a 1952 Harley 45 cu. in. flathead. The picture was taken in 1956. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

Joe

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2011, 12:37:15 PM »
Evening,

Back on topic ;)

I cut the toolpost out this afternoon -



Theres quite a lot of work in this part alone. I need to profile the upright to sit just behind the cutting tip on both sides, machine a slot down the side to accomodate the fixing screws and work out how to machine a recess for the tool to reside in.

Then of course it has to be a nice tight fit in the slot that I am yet to machine in the turret - I might do that tomorrow.

Nick

Offline philf

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2011, 12:57:26 PM »
Nick,

Before you cut the pocket for the insert have a look at http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/ball-turner.html

When I eventually get round to making one I'll certainly incorporate his ideas.

Cheers.

Phil.
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Offline DaveH

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2011, 01:07:14 PM »
Looking good Nick  :thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:
 :beer:
DaveH
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Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2011, 02:42:50 PM »
Thanks for the support :)

@philf how many ways can there be to make the same thing?!

Nick

Offline Bert

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2011, 04:11:33 PM »
Hi all


  Simple answer!  If 10 people are making the same thing......10 different ways!!!

Regards....bert

Offline raynerd

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2011, 05:43:31 PM »
on a forum, 10 people... 15 different ways!

Offline philf

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2011, 05:48:06 PM »
Hi Nick,

The difference I see in the design from the link is that it allows you to turn a much greater arc than would be possible with a symmetrically positioned insert.

As you say, there are many ways to accomplish the job. I keep looking at my boring head with a view to using it in a ball turner.

I haven't a clue why I feel a need to turn balls. The few I've needed have been made from softened ball bearings.
I have a Quorn tool and cutter grinder (which I inherited) which is covered in ball handles. I've removed some and replaced them with hex nuts as I find the ball handles, although looking nice, get in the way.

Cheers.

Phil.
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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2011, 09:37:34 PM »
True, many designs based on the same idea.... Many designs based on others.


There is another thing I've noticed on the link supplied by Phil.

I'm not sure if it's an early attempt but that's not a ball shown in the last shot.... Close, but not a ball. (I made quite a few "acorns" when I first started to learn this!)  Just wondering how easy it is to set it up for accurate cutting?


Still.... interesting solution to the toolpost into arbour issue. So many cats to skin.....




Nick,

I pictured the mounting of these types of tip in a thread I had going ages ago....  http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=319.msg901#msg901

It might help you if you read it first since I had to do exactly what you are now?  The tip mounting is about half way down the page.

You might need to remove some material from the toolpost too? Might be too chunky? You might be planning to?

 It might stop you getting close into the arbour? Assuming your cutting a ball on an arbour?
Of course that adjustment can be made later with little issues.


I'm looking at this and hoping it's not too much? I'm trying to help.
Tell me if it's annoying. I'd hate to be seen to be pushy. So hard to know when you've written too much?



That said I'm going to leave it at that.... Hope I've helped not hindered?




Ralph.

I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2011, 09:32:25 AM »
Thanks Ralph,

Looks tricky - I have an index table here that may help, will let you know.

One thing about Mike's workshop solution - I cant see how you can cut convex curves with it.

I dont actually need to cut any balls as such, I just want to be able to cut a radius on the top of a pair of handlebar clamps - im looking forward to actually making something rather than making tools!

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2011, 11:08:35 AM »
Yes, I've been thinking about that too.... It would probably work once you pass the zero point and carry on pushing the toolpost forward towards the work piece?

But then you wouldn't have a lot to grip with the grub screws and the bottom leg of the tool post would be protruding quite a bit..... Always a chance of catching the chuck jaws  :bugeye: 
(once you've got yours made, always try a dry run before turning the lathe on..... Learned that one the painful way!)


For what you describe this version should work very well. Won't be long now and you'll have some bespoke handlebar clamps  :thumbup:





Ralph.



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Offline andyf

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2011, 11:28:05 AM »
.... One thing about Mike's workshop solution - I cant see how you can cut convex curves with it.


Looking at the last photo in the mikesworkshop link, I think that if the turret was rotated clockwise by a bit more than 90 degrees to bring what (in the photo) is the LH corner of the insert into play, it would cut concave curves into the side of barstock. The insert holder might need to be modified to allow that corner to project a bit more, and an alternative position for the handle to screw into would be needed.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2011, 12:41:40 PM »
Andy,

I think you are right, it wouldnt take too much to adapt.

Ill try and get more done tomorrow.

Nick

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2011, 11:20:03 AM »
Nick,
         I've been trying to follow the 'story' so far. My question is 'Do you have either a dividing head or a rotary table?' Or 'Do you have a boring head?' If you have one and want to do balls or convex cuts, you don't need to go to all this.

'Fergus'

Offline DaveH

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2011, 12:19:40 PM »
I have an answer:

Sometimes, there is more fun to be had in making it than using it.

There is also a sense of achievement in making it.

One can learn a lot by just making something.

And most important of all  …………. “He wants to”

Carry on Nick, and don't forget the pics :thumbup:

 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2011, 01:16:59 PM »
Thanks Dave,

Ive been busy today, mainly cutting out the slot in the centre of the turret.



Made a ballsup though and cut it a couple of mm too wide, should have paid more attention during maths at school.

Its not a biggie though and think i can use it to my advantage by taking up the the clearance with a couple of gib strips which would, in fact, add to the design.

As you have to work with what youve got I also thought of (i) remaking the toolpost from steel or (ii) making a toolpost from the ali I have left (this would mean having to make it from two parts). If I was going to do it the second way any does anyone have a suggestion for a good rigid design by bolting two pieces together in an L shape (I dont have the facility to weld ali).

@Fergus, thanks for your comments. I do have a boring head and would be interested to learn how to use that to do this job. I did find a website last night where someone made a radius cutter to go on the boring bar but the pictures werent clear enough for me to see how to do it.

Nick
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 02:41:21 PM by MadNick »

Offline DaveH

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2011, 01:27:57 PM »
Nick,

Coming along nicely, :thumbup: :clap:

Nothing wrong with making a few design changes whilst making it.

 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2011, 04:49:37 PM »
Made a ballsup though and cut it a couple of mm too wide, should have paid more attention during maths at school.
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There's another question. sorry but there is! Were you using an end mill to do the slot? If you were- don't blame your maths! You should have used a slot drill
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@Fergus, thanks for your comments. I do have a boring head and would be interested to learn how to use that to do this job. I did find a website last night where someone made a radius cutter to go on the boring bar but the pictures werent clear enough for me to see how to do it.
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All you need is to is to use a boring bar but take care to have a cutter which cuts on the outside of the curve to do a convex cut and an inside one to do the concave stuff.

One of the big mistakes is forget that you are making a single tooth cutter which follows the shape of a hole saw and that the flanks of the tooth/bit must follow the circle- and give clearance.

Often the best way to see what you are doing is to draw the job out on paper at full scale.

Really, it is dead simple- the second time!

Good Luck

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2011, 06:49:05 PM »
Nick,
Just my thoughts on it.

If you remake the toolpost I'd use the steel personally.
Could lose the job and other stuff if the thread/material gives way!? Ali isn't the strongest material to thread into.

The forces on the cutting tip can be quite considerable...  Everytime the cutter contacts it pulls down on it a little... Over time it may work loose?
I made my round tipped cutter from steel screwed together. That worked fine. (but cutting force only 1mm off the edge of the post. Not like 6-8mm on the diamond tips)  I'm just not too sure on ali holding up?





Fergus,  Doesn't it take a bit of heavy lifting and a fiddly set up to use a dividing head/rotary table to cut a sphere? I'm sure I've seen it shown in pictures on another forum and I know I'd have had the ball made in the time it took to lift/fit and set the job up in the dividing head.
I'll gladly watch a video of it if you have or know of one? Always wondered about the exact procedure for doing it with one of them?  Every little bit of knowledge helps you make something else  :thumbup:




Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2011, 07:02:25 PM »



Fergus,  Doesn't it take a bit of heavy lifting and a fiddly set up to use a dividing head/rotary table to cut a sphere? I'm sure I've seen it shown in pictures on another forum and I know I'd have had the ball made in the time it took to lift/fit and set the job up in the dividing head.
I'll gladly watch a video of it if you have or know of one? Always wondered about the exact procedure for doing it with one of them?  Every little bit of knowledge helps you make something else  :thumbup:




Ralph.

I'm all of 81+ and lifting things is an out of question thing! Consequently, I have a small dividing head( a George Thomas, from a Hemingway casting), a Vertex BSO which takes Myford collets and ER32 and a Myford set of chucks and a small GHT boring head- made from scrap,  which goes onto the Myford and the mill/drill. There is nothing BIG. I have a bigger rotary table( somewhere)
Actually, the even tinier rotary table on the homemade Quorn will do a hell of a lot of things.

But, and this is important- Chaddock used a file which he softened and re-tempered and did all his ball handles.

All in the books

Cheers

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2011, 03:00:38 AM »
Thanks fellas,

Will keep you posted on how I proceed :)

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2011, 01:05:46 PM »
Evening,

This afternoon's progress.

My neighbour came up trumps with a brass piano hinge of the ideal width for my shims -



I fitted them to the sides of the toolpost by way of self tapping screws. I originally tried to use an M3 tap with some tiny countersunk crosshead screws but for some reason I just couldnt get the screws started after tapping out the holes - I believe my M3 tap to be just too worn. You have to work with what you have so I used the self tappers and ground them flush -



A quick dressing with some emery paper and wayhey, the shims werent brass at all but brass-coloured. Too late to do anything about it now as those shims are going nowhere.

The next job was to find the centreline on the toolpost -



I milled out a shoulder and then drilled/tapped three M6 grub screws -



Tomorrow is what I believe to be the tricky bit, milling out the recess for the tool. Got to get it right or the whole toolpost becomes scrap...

Nick


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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2011, 06:56:52 PM »
Nice save Nick  :thumbup:


Just a note before you machine... Best to turn a point in the chuck first and re-check that line... I made my first one to the tail stock height as Steve Bedair said (IIRC) It was approx 0.20mm too low. Subsequently leaving a pip on all I machined!

Worth the extra time to check.



Fergus,
 I'm aware that much is in books.... Sadly I do not own many of the books out there. Some, but not many. Hence my questions.
Fair comment on the smaller lighter machinery.... I'm a mere 37 and much of it is too damn heavy now!





Ralph.

 
 
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Offline rleete

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2011, 07:26:34 PM »
Easiest way for me was to mount it in the lathe, and drill the hole with the chuck.  Since I was using a 1/4" round bit, that ensures it is perfectly on center.
Creating scrap, one part at a time

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2011, 05:32:36 AM »
Thanks for the responses :)

Last night I came to a simpler conclusion in mounting the cutting tool.

Rather than bolting up the tip in the picture, I could use my 8x8 carbide toolholder, mounting it on the upright part by cutting a slot/drilling a hole and securing with a couple of grub screws.

This would allow me to swap out tips and save a lot of aggravation/time in forming the toolpost.

Hopefully will get a chance to do some more work on this later.

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2011, 05:33:19 AM »
>> MadNick

I think you have to protect your balls - the ones in the bearing of cause - I think small chips will find a way to obstruct a nice smooth turning.

I did one much like yours - http://kelds.weebly.com/kuglevaeligrktoslashj.html - see the 6. 7. 8. picture the balls are hiden behind a skirt - just like a scotchman would do  :D

But try it out - if it's a problem - you can turn a ring on the lathe and solde it in place to protect the balls.

You HAVE to use brass to protect against scratches - again look what I did - it was a bit tricky to mill it but it can be done.

You can make Google to translate my website !
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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2011, 05:55:33 AM »
Thanks Ksor,

Thanks for the reminder about the skirt and I will keep my eyes open for some strips of brass.

I didnt need to use a translator for your site as the pictures speak for themselves - beautifully made tool :)

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2011, 06:26:25 AM »
Thx !
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Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2011, 07:17:00 AM »

Fergus,
 I'm aware that much is in books.... Sadly I do not own many of the books out there. Some, but not many. Hence my questions.
Fair comment on the smaller lighter machinery.... I'm a mere 37 and much of it is too damn heavy now!





Ralph.

Books? well, one of my better books is free on the net. I have  Advanced Machine Tool Work by A H Smith.

Bit ancient in places but a lot answers many of the questions posed here.

Elsewhere, is the great Holtzapffel books on Turning and Manual Manipulation.  Absolutely spell binding stuff and if you want to turn the Eiffell Tower or the Taj Mahal or lesser things- it's Holzapffel. Even more dated but I might have some fancy books- but none can keep up with this set.

You sort of read them, put a modern odd bit of know-how to them and really wonder what is really new.

Regards

Fergus o'Dooodah

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2012, 08:06:22 AM »
Afternoon,

A quick update.

I got the cutting tip mounted on the toolpost and did a few test cuts. A couple of observations -

1. Im not sure my bearing idea is adding to the tool - perhaps a taper roller would have been better suited as its designed to manage radial force. I have to ask myself why no-one else needed to use a thrust bearing in their design like I have - it feels like a lot of force is pushing the cutting tool back and up.

2. It may be to do with 1. but reading the chips tells me that something isnt quite right. Im not getting the nice curly swarf (even on ali) and it looks like the metal is being torn rather than cut. Im certain my tool height is correct and am starting to think the cutting tip isnt right for this application.

Back to the drawing board. I started to get despondent and then remembered that James Dyson made something like 2000+ prototypes for his first bagless vacuum cleaner...

Nick

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2012, 08:28:05 AM »
Ah, Nick, Fergus a Doo Dahl calling!

I have a set of bearings in my Clarkson Radius Attachment. However, there are none in my Quorn head and none in my George Thomas ( geared) rotary table. Well, we do do thingies!

So you have a pressure in a vertical mode which is fouling the pivot bearing( recall my somewhat rude remarks about these things- well, a lot of did) It's all to do with Pythagorus and 101 and another one in Euclid's Fairy Tales about angles.  That's my theory, anyway.

So now you get rid of these bloody awful carbide tips and make some nice sharp hss ones which have a 5 degree front edge rather than negative or at best 3 degree positive front rake. They might work

I know, I know!!!!  Say no more!

Fergus of the Whatsits

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2012, 09:37:14 AM »
--> MadNeck

It's too cold around here to do something in the workshop, the last knop I did on my ball-tools was steenless steel and it was going well - no fooling around because of the balls - I think my biggest problem is, that I tried to implement a "diamond-cutting"-arrangement, and I did not get the right angle in the first place, so now I have to make a new "tower" for mounting the bit.

If you do a ball in alu or brass it should be no problem I think.

I will not at all cancel my "ball-bearing"-arrangement in my tools, but try to make a better arrangement for placing the cutting bit enabling adjustment up/down for better performance ... but it's too cold these days, so I'm doing "in-door-hot-coffee"-thinking  :med: ..... and driving my wife mad !
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Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2012, 10:09:53 AM »
Thanks Fellas,

Time for a rethink, I mean, whats the point of reinventing the wheel?

Nick

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2012, 10:30:04 AM »
Following our E-mail discussion last evening, you have a boring head but with an unknown taper shank.
In other words, you have most of the tool which will kake balls and whatever- if only you could get rid or find a solution for the spiindle/shank.

All that you need now is three things
1. a decent tool to do the cutting
2. a spindle
3. a holder of sorts which takes the new spindle but at lathe centre height


Offline 75Plus

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2012, 11:43:32 AM »
There is a member on Hobby-Machinist that used a flycutter as part of his ball turner. It does allow some adjustment and tool possibilities. You may have to be a member to see the photos though.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php/4570-Another-version-of-a-ball-turner?highlight=ball

Joe

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2012, 08:24:40 PM »
Nick,

Sorry to hear it's not performing to expectations.... I know you may be thinking of the boring head version but I can assure you that this version will work if you take a direct copy of Steve Bedairs design (turret mounting etc) and my tip adaptations. 
No bearings to have play in and you can make the turret to fit the recess in the base. So no need to panic over accuracy of dials etc. (I know that my dials are no where near as good as they should/could be according to the books!)

Scream all you like carbide bashers of the world....(I'm getting fed up of people telling Newbies that carbide is useless!)  I have many photo's and videos that prove that these things work perfectly well with carbide tips!

Feel free to check my videos on youtube.   
eature=mhee  Every single thing on the lathe created with mainly carbide tooling... My only HSS tools are a micro parting tool (used for grooving only) and a small boring bar.

I've no issue with HSS in general.... I just don't use it on my lathe that much.
The issue with HSS tips for these tools is re-creating the exact tip when it needs sharpening/changing..... you have to re-calibrate the tool (lapping and setting to exact length etc) and could possibly lose hours trying to get it accurate again!



Apologies for the micro rant Nick.... I just think you have more than enough talent to make a working tool the way you are going.  :thumbup:





Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2012, 03:56:08 AM »
Thanks Chaps,

I need to come up with something - need to make these handbar clamps!

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2012, 04:01:07 AM »


Scream all you like carbide bashers of the world....(I'm getting fed up of people telling Newbies that carbide is useless!)  I have many photo's and videos that prove that these things work perfectly well with carbide tips!

I've no issue with HSS in general.... I just don't use it on my lathe that much.
Ralph.

Ralph.

Me too!  :thumbup:

But, I don't recommend setting up with expensive throw away tooling for a mini lathe.
Too many sweeping statements........

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2012, 09:54:06 AM »
Just like The Bionic Man, they can rebuild him...

Ive taken the bearing out the equation and turned down the turret to fit the step the bearing used to sit in.

I then lapped the turret into place with coarse and then smooth grinding paste and it turns nicely - no slop.

Ill have to start on a new toolpost and the height of the tool is now lower. Ive got some small HSS tips I use in my boring bar that could be adapted.

You cannot keep a good man down!

Edit - I have machined two L shaped toolposts out of the old base. I did this on the vertical mill using a slitting saw in a 1" arbor. It made a bit of noise but did a half decent job (better than hacksawing my way through this lot).



Next job will be to clean up the toolposts and make them fit the turret.

Nick
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:23:29 PM by MadNick »

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2012, 01:09:26 PM »
Hi Nick

Good to see your still plugging away at the build ,,,,,,,,,,, i am sure you will get it sorted  :thumbup:


Rob

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2012, 04:30:07 PM »
Nicely done Nick  :thumbup:  Good metal recovery from the old base  :dremel:


David, I don't recommend expensive throwaway tooling either... As I recall my tools cost me £125 (6 various angled tools and a boring bar) and ten tips were about the £20 mark.
Sounds expensive....?  For £25 per year I don't think so.
I've had them now for nearly five years Still on the same ten tips. There are 4 cutting edges on each tip.

I've Made hundreds of things with them and not spent hours grinding and lapping tools... To my detriment I hear them say?  Not in my book. I'm still making things that make me happy.

Somewhere on here (maybe HMEM?) there is a thread about diamond lapping carbide tips to create alternative cutting edges.... Can't recall where or by who though?

I do grind HSS tooling BTW... Flycutters for my mill' (taught by Bogs)  and occasional drill bits.


Anywho, I'm Boring myself now.....

Sounds like Nick's happy with his progress today so going to make an effort to add a little less of this  :offtopic: stuff and carry on with the positive.

Nick,
Looking forward to seeing This tool in action and how these handle bar clamps develop. But I bet no where near as much as you are?  :)






Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2012, 12:11:19 PM »
Evening.

Good progress made today. Carried on with the toolpost - trimmed it down to size and made use of the radius on the inside corner.



Its also got a nice shoulder on the upper part of the 'L' which fits nicely onto the turret.

Heres the thing assembled so far -



Just need to work on the tool height and deciding what tooling to use. I have some nice HSS 8x8 which would work well on this.

Best.

Nick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2012, 02:18:21 PM »
Looking good MadNick, soon you can make your own balls  :lol: :lol:
« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 04:12:06 PM by saw »
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Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2012, 03:53:25 PM »
Ah the international language speaks again... :)

Will get more done tomorrow.

Nick

Offline Pete49

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2012, 09:00:04 PM »
jiihoo you trouble maker.....here I was happily minding my own business trying to manage the time I have left reading my forums and you point out another one. Now I have to ask for another 10 years to be added to my life :lol:
Thanks for the link  :ddb:
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oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2012, 01:01:25 PM »
Evening,

I was busy last night and managed to take a few pictures this afternoon -

First off was another try at the toolpost. The old one would have worked with a carbide tip but I couldnt quickly figure out how to cut the 80 degree pocket for the tool. I started again and I had in mind holding an 8x8 HSS tool. The script was the same, machine the bottom part of the L to fit the slot in the turret and mill out a slot to hold the HSS  -



and



I was pleased with this and really just needed to make the leverage bar. Fitted -



Looks like the first ball I will make is going to go on the end of the bar.

A few jobs yet to do before I can try a few test cuts. The retaining bolt needs to be glued in and its clearance checked against the cross slide as it feels like its undoing itself. Also the mounting bolts need to be turned down a bit or made shorter so I can get a full swing with the toolpost moved back. I also need to grind the tip to cut balls.

All in all it feels like im getting somewhere.

Nick

Offline ksor

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2012, 01:15:03 PM »
 :clap: really nice with that extra wide "foot" you have !

But height isn't very easy to adjust - OK, it's only ones you have to do it so ...

Nice peace og tool - now make a video of Ball turning  :drool:
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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2012, 12:54:47 PM »
Evening :)

Well I have had a good afternoon , perserverance paid off and my inaugural ball has been cut!

I made a couple of blanks pre-drilled and tapped to 10mm and an arbor with a 10mm thread.

My first effort is on the end of the leverage arm, here -



Its a bit of an olive shape I know.

The second one here, more of a ball shape as I started to work out how to get the best cut -



A couple of things need to be sorted out. I think the slightly olive shape is where the arbor flexes due to being a bit too thin at 10mm diameter. Also the tool sounds like it is rubbing when moving from 6 o'clock to 9 o'clock.

Will investigate tomorrow but for tonight I am feeling triumphant!

Nick

Offline rleete

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2012, 01:02:45 PM »
See?  Told ya it was fun to cut spheres.  Nearly as entertaining as getting an engine to fire up.
Creating scrap, one part at a time

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2012, 01:58:55 PM »
No - the olive shape is because the turner is NOT placed exactly vertically under the center of the chuck (maybe wrong spelling of 'chuck') !

Exactly this placing differently you can use for making different decorations - convex and concave - but to make a ball you have to place your tool very accurately under the center of the chuck.
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Offline DaveH

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2012, 02:17:42 PM »
Good stuff Nick

Well done :clap: :clap: :clap:
 :beer:
DaveH
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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2012, 02:18:27 PM »
Nice balls Nick  :thumbup:  :lol: 



Seriously though, Congrat's on the results  :nrocks:

The first one on the handle is almost an exact replica of my first attempt.... Still got it rolling round in the tool box draw, couldn't bring myself to throw it away.

The slight ogive you are getting is most probably due to the tool setting from the centre of the "turret" not the centre of the chuck.

If I may to refer to one of my own posts again (just to save me writing it all out again)  http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=1721.45  About half way down I explain how I learned to set this type of tool for consistent results.  No need for pins and other things.


I hope that will help you and you can get them spot on.


You'll have fun making shapes with this.... Roll on handle bar clamps  :dremel: 





Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline MadNick

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Re: Ball or Radius cutter
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2012, 04:13:35 AM »
Thanks fellas,

Its only a simple thing but I do find it immensely satisfying.

Woking on those handlebar clamp designs as we speak...

Nick