Author Topic: Flame licker engine  (Read 20924 times)

Offline nearnexus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Flame licker engine
« on: August 30, 2011, 08:53:38 PM »

I've been building a small flame licker engine to my own design for quite a while (when time permits) and originally used a thin flap valve onto a central hole in the cylinder head to control intake/exhaust.

The frictional forces in the linkage were higher than I expected so I've now switched to a side port into the cylinder head (to re-use the original cylinder and piston.

The option is to have a sliding shim steel valve held against the side of the head by spring tension OR have a cross sliding rod to interrupt the hole into the head (which should have good sealing properties).

The only concern is that the second option will require a much longer port passage into the head.

How critical is the length of the inlet/exhaust passage for one of these engines ?

I notice everyone seems to go for the shortest possible passage length.

I can try the interrupter rod valve first and if no go, mill the head to take a shim steel valve without having to redo the head.

Anyone gone down this route ?

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 12:31:39 PM »
Hi Near, I've been bitten by the "flame sucker bug" for quite some time lately, and I've found their low power means you have to take steps at ever juncture to minimize friction, reduce power consumption and ensure timing is balanced for both lead, on the intake, and allowing the pressure relief on the return stroke, as you still have considerable volume of gases (air,now cool) in the cylinder at the end of the working part of the stroke.  I've used the feeler gauge reed valve many times, as it works very well with light enough valve train, I've used a sliding bronze bit about a quarter inch by three eighths, with a groove for a flat spring to clip into, on a half inch bore Phillip Duclos "Flame Sucker", against an aluminum cylinder with bronze piston, and with a brass cylinder and bronze piston, which worked far better, about four or five times the running time before refitting.  I've taken what was essentially a scaled up "Poppin" with cast iron cylinder of .750 in bore, 1.25 stroke, stainless steel head, with a ball check valve to release pressure, and set up a sliding graphite valve made out of a generator brush, which works very well, with very reliable action, and not lots of loud annoying sounds as my wife would say.  Port length is critical, as the heat of the flame must be radiated into the cylinder, to reduce the temperature and volume of the gases fast enough to keep the engine running effectively.  An eighth of an inch of flame position in my latest engine doubles or halves the rpm of the engine.  It is using a .005 feeler gauge reed valve with a ball check valve.  I will be posting most if not all the build of it tonight or tomorrow, I've been having a flood, and haven't had power for a few days, and havn't had time to get the building of the engine posted.  I've been working with long strokes and moderate bores, trying to stay under a two to one ratio, looking to get enough torque to power something.  When I've run out of improvements, I will be looking at large bores, and comparatively "square" engines, knowing that will increase the rpm very much, but you have to work out port dimensions relative to bore, more than any other factor, I've found port diameter half the bore diameter works pretty well with the long stroke.  I suspect as it gets closer to "square", the port dimension will be more critical and more finicky, but haven't been down that road very far yet.  By the way,  :worthless:  How bout some pictures so we can see?  :beer:  cheers, mad jack

Offline nearnexus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 06:53:44 PM »
Hi Mad Jack,

Thanks for the detailed response.

I knew I would get asked for photo's, but at this time it's all in bits, so not much point.

There is a picture at the bottom of my web page on milling that shows my earlier effort before I got the valve linkage in place.

http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/mill3.html

I'm not sure if my idea of using a needle roller for the bottom end is a good idea.  It is low low drag, but maybe a ball race would be better ?  Anyway for now I will stick with the roller.

And here's two more early shots showing the cylinder and crank.

http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/cq9325rev-a.html

I am lengthening the stroke and barrel on this version.

The barrel is a bronze liner shrunk into in an aluminum  finned section.

The finished version nearly ran, but not quite :-)

I've decided to go with a sliding feeler gauge, as it won't interfere with the flame as much as a flap and it will self tension if I put a curved load on it.

I intend to put a hole in the feeler gauge to mate with the inlet port in the open position. 

My reasoning is that by doing it that way, the feeler gauge is supported at all times on the perimeter of the port, so fouling of the feeler gauge leading edge is reduced.

I also have opened out the transfer port on the inside of the cylinder head to try to get some venturi effect.

I'm a bit unsure of the thermo dynamics of the cylinder head.  Should the head act as a cooling agent or should it retain some mass to act as a heat element to keep up the temperature of the in comming charge?

I only started this project to investigate the thermo dynamics of the vacuum principle first hand - as it is a concept I'm not familiar with.

I've seen enough/rebuilt enough internal combustion engines to not want to build my own from scratch  ::)

This project is like a slow boat to China, but I don't give up easily.

Cheers

Rob



 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 08:37:53 PM by nearnexus »

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 01:24:00 PM »
Hi Rob, I don't remember who I got plans for the "poppin" from, but the author suggested the port be counter sunk inside, so the incoming flame would not be cooled by passing through the port, and having a "knife edge" for minimal contact area, and in following this advice, I have also used stainless for heads because it's such a poor conductor of heat, and it has made a big difference.  The best possible 'ideal' would have the port stay hot, the head part of the cooling, with the cylinder being the vast majority of the cooling, but this would require something like a ceramic port attached to the head, so I've stuck with stainless boat shafting, as it is hard, and wear resistant, and very poor conducting, and in truth, should put a gasket between the head and cylinder, and use stainless bolts, to transfer less heat through them.  The port issue changed the way my "oddball flame sucker" ran completely, going from a almost running with a straight port, to running very well, once it was tapered and reduced in diameter to half the bore.  I've been trying to catalog some of my findings as I experiment with these engines, and establish some principles to make them easier to get running.  Looking forward to watching your's take off, if it almost ran once, it can be made to run :bugeye:, even if by threat and force.   :beer:Cheers, mad jack

Offline nearnexus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 10:09:17 PM »
Hi MadJack,

Thanks for the input.

I have been playing around with the cam setup for the sliding port valve (feeler gauge) and it's causing me grief as the cam angles to snap the valve open and shut are so aggressive that the roller cam rod binds.

Really annoying me.  I will have to grind a few brain cells on this one.

May have to change from a direct acting cam I think.

Having a beer right now while I compute the various options :-)

Cheers

Rob
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 10:58:00 PM by nearnexus »

Offline nearnexus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2011, 01:59:48 AM »
Well the beer worked.  I extended the brass guide and smoothed out the cam profile a bit.

The conrod  needle roller cage is actually from a junked Ryobi grass trimmer.  So are the two ball races supporting the crank.

The piston is quite long and was canting a bit at bottom dead center so I extended the bore/piston travel into the head a bit to get the piston into the cylinder more but with the same stroke.  This worked well.

Top bit of machining alignment on that one :-)

The finned barrel is aluminium with a bronze liner.

Cylinder head and piston are mild steel (1 mm wall).

The cam rod will have a very thin feeler gauge on the end at 90 degrees to the cylinder.  I will bend it so that it is parallel with the inlet port in the head and held there by it's own spring tension.  Well that's the idea.

I will have to see if that will prevent the cam roller block from twisting in the brass guide.  If not then I will put a small guide on it to mate against the side of the upright.

Have to rig up a return spring also.

The cam is pinned to a spacer and timing can be adjusted with a grub screw.  So can the flywheel, which has a slot machined out to counterbalance the conrod.

Here's some pictures below of where it's at.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 02:30:05 AM by nearnexus »

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2011, 12:03:22 PM »
Hi Near, in looking at your pictures, I'd say you've built your engine very stout, as it would need to be to run steam, when you are dealing with atmospheric pressure, leaving you working for every bit of action.  If I were you I'd take a working design, build it as near as possible to dead on according to the designer, and "poppin" is a great design to start with, and in that way get yourself to a running engine as easily as possible, because you will spend lots of time watching it run, and some time playing with it to change its characteristics, and in all this, you will come to see dozens of places which are critical to these very low powered engines, and find your way around their peculiar aspects.  I built the Duclos "flame sucker" twenty years ago, spent a bit of time every evening building it, and for some six months trying to get it to run, and ended up putting it in a box, and putting it up.  I saw someone build the same engine as a student in a school project, and do a build log, and tore my shop apart to find where I'd put my engine.  I had to pull it apart and compare the parts to what I saw in the log, to see my cam was wrong, and realise I had used a radius dimension when I should have used a diameter, and by remaking the crank and cam (one piece design), along with a new cylinder, which I didn't forget the head fins, and a new piston, which fit much nicer, got mine to run, and in doing so, ended up going through some six or seven cylinders, an equal number of different pistons, and found a current form I like, which works well for it, but I still have a cylinder I want to make for it, and a piston to match, expecting a better outcome, after all the other engines in the works.  Once I got one that actually ran, I have not been able to stop playing with different aspects, trying to find better ways to get where I want to go.  It interferes with my other engine projects, but I am learning to deal with that.  I hope I am not insulting you, or disappointing you, and I hope you find a design form you both like, and runs for you.  I don't think I would have tried all the different ideas I have, if I hadn't gotten that first failure to actually pull out, and come back to life.  If your bearings have seals on them, they alone will keep the engine from running, either open or shielded bearings are the best and for plain bearings, narrow, minimal contact and very light oil are the name of the game. :beer:  Cheers,  mad jack

Offline mklotz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Country: us
  • LA, CA, USA
    • Software For People Who Build Things
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 12:43:14 PM »
Hey, Jack...

Have you ever heard of the concept of paragraphs?

Seriously, I imagine you have some interesting things to say, but trying to read one of those impossibly long, run-on posts is way beyond my (and I suspect other's) patience level.
Regards, Marv

Home Shop Freeware
https://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 02:12:48 PM »
Marv, if you really felt the need to pull someone up on their use of English perhaps you could have done it a bit more diplomatically? Jack is a fantastic contributor to the forum and flame lickers are something he's become very passionate about over the last couple of years, first reviving his Duclos one then designing and making quite a few of his own. As you mentioned, he's always got something interesting and useful to say, you don't have to read it but if you want to I'm sure you'll find it's not actually that difficult. I just don't think we should be criticising another member of the forum for something trivial such as this. If it was intended as a bit of friendly advice you should maybe have send him a personal message and done it in a more friendly manner.



Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline saw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
  • Country: se
  • lucky amateur
    • Svenssons AckordsWerkstad
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2011, 02:52:49 PM »
NickG Well spoken.  :clap:
_________________________
Greetings / Benni
http://myprojecty.wordpress.com/category/steam-engine/

Offline dsquire

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2275
  • Country: ca
  • Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2011, 07:54:12 PM »
Marv, if you really felt the need ....
.
.
..... a personal message and done it in a more friendly manner.



Nick

I have to agree with you 100% Thanks for having the guts to say what I wanted to say. :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don
Good, better, best.
Never let it rest,
'til your good is better,
and your better best

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2011, 12:28:34 PM »
Marv, I can accept your question without animousity, and will state, I do very well with formats which support writing fundamentals, but have some problems with such formats which don't always cooperate.  I will certainly try to make my writing more easily read, I recognise the truth of your comment, and will act accordingly.  My interest is in enjoying the forum, and having as many more people doing interesting things as possible, because I'm selfish, and I am inspired by the creativity of others, and want their ideas to work, so I get other ideas.  My first grade teacher was chiding me for much the same thing several years back, if I remember right. :bugeye: :hammer: :beer:  Cheers, mad jack

Offline ALB

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
  • Country: scotland
  • Aberdeen
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2011, 06:09:49 AM »
Well said Nick,
comments like that is the reason some of the more helpfull members (with positive imput) jump ship to Other sites.
But back to the origional post I have to agree with Mad Jack
Looks like that's a heavy machine to run (But verry pleasing to the eye)
good luck with getting it running Rob
Don't put all your eggs in one basket

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Flame licker engine
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2011, 11:23:19 AM »
Hi Rob, I don't know where you've got with your engine, but in reviewing your posted pictures, and looking at your equipment as shown, if it were me, I'd go back to the original cylinder or one like it, and complete out the "poppin" you've started with, as it is one of the more easily gotten running forms, and with it together and running, you will have the opportunity to see issues which are not apparent except from a running engine.

    In my own experience, it seems the most important aspect of these engines is a dead straight bore, lapping it to a fine finish, and getting the piston fitted with less than half a thousandth, and free the length of the bore.  The valve arrangement of "poppin" is probably the least friction of any of those I've used, and the easiest I've had so far, in getting timed, and a good seal.

    I'm using Luftkin spring gauges, the kind that lock with a twist of the handle, to measure, measuring the gauge with a micrometer, to get the bore round and straight, and using the natural action of the lap to get the taper out, taking a piece of delrin, turning it to the measured diameter, coat the lap with a polishing compound, and then rubbing in some jeweler's rouge, and carefully rotating the lap in the lathe at slow (150) or so, and sliding the cylinder on to the lap.  My lathe turns about half a thousandth taper in two inches, so I make the lap to fit the large end, and gently, with lots of polish with rouge, work the cylinder all the way on and lap it until it mike's out within a tenth end to end.

     If you have more taper, or if I have a longer cylinder, I sometimes have to make two laps, or, if it is a size I expect to duplicate, I will make an adjustable lap, which is the best solution, as you can keep adjusting until it's perfect, and not have to quit just because that's all the lap will do.

    Once the cylinder is lapped, then turn the piston, making sure the coefficient of expansion of the piston is less than or equal to that of the cylinder liner, and you can go with the piston as turned, if you feel you have a fine enough finish, or you can lap the piston as well.  With that bronze liner in the aluminum cylinder, I'd go with an iron piston.  I'd bore a bit of aluminum bar to the nominal size of the bore, say we're talkng about half an inch, and the bore turned out say .504 after reaming it, and lapping it to a nice cross hatch pattern measuring dead even the length.

    I'd ream out the aluminum about an inch deep, bore it if the lathe bores straight, and bore the oversize, otherwise ream it, cut it off and then split it down its length, and set it aside.  Turn the iron piston blank, with lapping clearance, or cut it off, and put it on the end of a piece of shaft, then smear the piston with polish and rouge, assuming the lap fits over the piston, and using a hose clamp to adjust the fit of the lap, and springing it if it's too tight, so it must be clamped to lap, and then lap the piston tightening the lap as it works smooth.

     Once it enters the cylinder, you get to find any tight spots, and decide if the whole cylinder is tight, more lapping on the piston, if it is just a couple spots in the cylinder, then its lap the cylinder in just those spots.  This done right, with everything working out, will fit closer than a tenth, if necessary, although it is shortuts through the lap making part.

    If you get your piston and cylinder to this point, I think you'll find "the poppin" plans will give you an operational engine, and the timing specs are good enough to get you started, although timing is another thing which every engine decides what it likes for its self.

     The single greatest obstacle with these engines, in my own opinion, is that starting one cold, the principle product of burning alcohol is water vapor, and if you've oiled your cylinder at all, the first few strokes will quickly emulsify the oil and water vapor, and suddenly the engine has five times the friction as it did before the flame.  I squirt WD-40 in the port, flip the engine through a few times, and generally get fifteen seconds or more running, with the vapors of the WD burning, and aiding in running, and have to rinse out the water two or three times, while the engine gets hot enough.

    With my last engine, I started it after all the assembling, with an iron liner in aluminum fins, with no oil (forgot it), and found the engine turned up and ran up to speed with the first flip, and it was already hot when I remembered to oil the cylinder.  I can take it apart and dry it, and it will run up again, the same way, but it needs oil to run, and so I put up with rinsing out the emulsion each time.

    I am currently replacing that piston with one of graphite, precisely because it will run in the iron cylinder liner without oil, and should be able to run right up even from cold.

    My Duclos "flame sucker" will start right up cold if I get the flame exactly right, and get lucky, but it won't run with oil, it doesn't have enough power, and I use graphite powder to lube it, read scribbling in the cylinder with a pencil, and the same on the piston.  It has a half in bore, the other engine I just built has an .815 bore, and needs more than graphite powder.  That is the one getting the graphite piston, and probably a graphite valve as well.



The engine to the right of the picture is "Vlad the inhaler", the engine I am modifying with the graphite piston.  It is in essence, a modified "poppin", using the head and cylinder set up of that engine, with odd bits from the scrap bin for the rest.  If you look at my post on the Jerry Howell vacuum engine, it shows using a well seasoned piece of oak, (seasoned more than thirty years) turned to about a nine or ten inch lap, with a brass tube pressed and locktited into aluminum for a cylinder, which is why I used the oak, as it is open grained, and carries the rouge well with the soft brass.  That would be the engine parts array coming together on the left in the picture.

    I don't want to steal your post, or impose my ideas on anyone, but I've found that getting the piston fit to the cylinder has been the cause of most of my problems with these vacuum engines, with friction in valve train being second.  Vlad has the simplest valve train of any I've built, and been among the easiest to enjoy except for the issue with flushing her, and that is why the graphite piston experiment.  It isn't exactly the same as the "poppin" valve train, but very close, and if you just don't get that engine running, try going to a larger bore, with a corresponding stroke, bigger means easier to start and more forgiving of tolerances.

    I hope this helps you get your flame eater together, and enjoyable, they can be a great pleasure to have when a more complex engine is giving one fits, and not cooperating. :jaw: :beer:  Cheers, mad jack