Author Topic: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck  (Read 22463 times)

Offline arnoldb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
  • Country: na
  • Windhoek, Namibia
General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« on: October 02, 2011, 12:15:36 PM »
Well, a bit of tooling for a change.  I actually wanted to start on an ER25 collet chuck for my mill.  The Cheap 'n Cheerful import I have works well, but after having used the bearing-based closer nut on the lathe's ER chuck, the closer nut on the mill's is a pain to tighten and release.  Unfortunately that chuck uses non-standard dimensions, so it's not as easy as just adding a bearing-based closer nut.  I've already added some extra collets of the regularly-used sizes to my set, and this morning I set off to start on the new chuck.  Bummer... I thought I had some suitable steel to make it from, but I thought wrong.  So it'll have to wait till I can buy some steel.

Instead, I started on another collet chuck - an ER11.  I've found that the ER25 on my lathe works very well, but at the smaller sizes it's inclined to shrink the collets if they are regularly used at under-sizes.  So a couple of months ago I bought a set of ER11 collets which have been sitting idle on the shelf since then.

First I clocked up a bit of 16mm silver steel in the 4-jaw.  I took my time about it to get it really close - less than 0.0025mm run-out (less than 1/4 deviation between two markings on my best dial indicator).  Two years ago this would have taken me 30 minutes; now it takes less than 10...  I left quite a bit of stock sticking out of the chuck; that was so that I could check both close to the chuck and further away for run-out:


Then I center drilled the end, turned a 13mm length down to 14mm diameter, and put a threading run-out groove in it:


I set up a 60 degree threading tool:


And started to set up the change gears for a 0.75mm pitch using a bit of paper to set gear clearance:


A very light cut across, and a thread gauge to measure that I had the correct pitch:


I took threading easy; just small increments at a time; 6 passes in total with the final pass at the same infeed as the previous one, and ended up with a nice smooth thread that's a spot-on fit for the ER11 closer nut:


Then I deep-drilled the work through with a good quality sharp 6.5mm drill - I didn't want it to wander too much.:


That was followed by a 7.5mm drill, which is the root depth for ER11 collet chucks. The Myford's top slide swivel graduations are pretty accurate, so I just set it to 8 degrees; that's the standard taper on all ER collets:


Of course I didn't have a small enough boring bar, so I ground one up from some 4mm square HSS blank:

A bit of round 6mm HSS would have worked better, but I don't have any; shopping list amended...  The cutting tip was honed on the oilstone to a nice sharp corner, with a very slight radius.

The taper was bored out with light cuts as the workpiece was sticking out so far.  When the outside end reached 11mm in diameter I stopped - this is the measurement where the "11" in ER11 comes from:

I love turning silver steel; it's easy to get a nice smooth turned finish.

Just had to try it out   :dremel: - a 3mm collet with a 3mm drill bit chucked up:


Parted it off, and the final result.  Chuck body:


Where the collet fits before it starts to compress:


And the 3mm collet compressed with the closer nut to near its smallest diameter:


Of course, the center 7.5mm hole goes right through so that I can extend stock through it:


And a final check on the lathe.  I chucked it up in the ER25 collet chuck, as it will see most of its use like this.  The 16mm ER25 collet has about 0.01mm run-out; both combined in this setup measured less than 0.015mm run-out; which is fine with me.  If I need higher precision, I can always just clock up the ER11 chuck in the 4-jaw chuck:


I didn't add spanner flats to the chuck body; if it's really needed I'll add them later.  Of course, this is not the most ideal setup, but will do in more than 80% of the cases where I need to grip small bits on the lathe.  It will also work on the mill to grip small cutters or drills.  I'll make a dedicated ER11 chuck for the small lathe once I get around to making a stand and mounting it.

Regards, Arnold

Offline dickda1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 12:52:44 PM »
Nicely done and really excellent quality photos!  :thumbup:
-Dick
sunny (mostly) San Francisco, land of looney people, sane politics and occasional earthquakes.
Skype: VladTheChemist

Offline doubleboost

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1619
  • Country: gb
  • Newcastle Upon Tyne
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 01:04:34 PM »
Very nice :clap: :clap: :clap:
Great pictures and a good explination
John

Offline HS93

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
  • Country: gb
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 02:54:23 PM »
Very Nice Dave , ill take back what I said about you  :lol: , you are usfull after all :D 

where is mine ?  :drool:

Peter
I am usless at metalwork, Oh and cannot spell either . failure

Offline DaveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Country: za
  • Kempton Park, South Africa
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 03:17:31 PM »
Peter,

Who the !@#$ is Dave?

 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline Bluechip

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1513
  • Country: england
  • Derbyshire UK
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 03:19:40 PM »
Peter,

Who !@#$ is Dave?

 :beer:
DaveH

Me and you ... or alternatively ...

You and me ..

I think that covers it ...  :loco:

BC
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline DaveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Country: za
  • Kempton Park, South Africa
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 03:28:20 PM »
It does cover it, :lol:

Arnold posted this, so where do you or I fit in :palm:

 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline DaveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Country: za
  • Kempton Park, South Africa
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 03:37:15 PM »
Arnold,

Very nicely done.

A very useful piece of kit and nicely made.

As usual well posted (in spite of me)  and photographed.

I recognise the collet box, it’s OK it’s not mine I’ve checked  :lol: :lol: :lol:

 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2011, 03:54:07 PM »
As usual. Very nicely made, and shown, Arnold!  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

Dave D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline saw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
  • Country: se
  • lucky amateur
    • Svenssons AckordsWerkstad
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 04:48:05 PM »
Very nice build  :thumbup: :thumbup:
_________________________
Greetings / Benni
http://myprojecty.wordpress.com/category/steam-engine/

Offline HS93

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
  • Country: gb
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 05:10:18 PM »
Appoligies Arnold, wrong flag  ,  I thought it was to good for Dave  :lol: 

must take smaller tablets  :doh:

Peter
I am usless at metalwork, Oh and cannot spell either . failure

Offline DaveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Country: za
  • Kempton Park, South Africa
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 05:11:58 PM »
I thought it was to good for Dave  :lol: 
Peter

Huh - Thanks :lol: :lol: :lol:
 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline arnoldb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
  • Country: na
  • Windhoek, Namibia
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 02:00:38 PM »
Thanks Gents  :beer:

 :lol: :lol: I had as much fun reading the replies as building the chuck  :lol: :lol:
No worries Peter & all the Daves  :thumbup:

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline wongster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Country: sg
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2011, 11:02:26 AM »
Hi Arnold,

Hope you don't mind me asking, how do you measure the outside end of the internal taper? I find it hard to measure accurately.

Thanks.
Wong

Offline AdeV

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2434
  • Country: gb
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2011, 07:48:07 PM »
I'm glad you asked that Wong, I have the same question...

Nice work as always Arnold, I  may have to make one of those (only ER25) for my lathe...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside. A long way from anywhere.
Occasionally: Zhengzhou, China. An even longer way from anywhere...

Offline arnoldb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
  • Country: na
  • Windhoek, Namibia
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2011, 05:16:34 AM »
Hi Wong & Ade

I just measured the end with calipers.  The 11mm outside end does not need to be super precise; it can easily be up to 0.5mm under or over.  Slightly undersize is better; then you can skim the taper bore later if it becomes damaged.

If you want to measure it a bit more accurately without resorting to all kinds of fancy measurements you can do the following:

Before you start turning the collet chuck, take a bit of scrap round bar that is larger than 11mm and turn it down to 11mm for a section of about 20mm. Then turn an 8 degree external taper on it for about 12 to 15mm. 

You now have a gauge you can use to check the taper in the chuck as you turn it.  When the section on the gauge where the taper ends fits flush with the front of the chuck you're turning, you're on size.

Once again, this is not super accurate, but will be close enough in this application.  Ade, for an ER25, the sizes must be increased appropriately.

If you turn the gauge carefully and the taper on it accurately (it's easier to turn an accurate outside taper than an inside one), you can also use it to check that you have an accurate taper on the inside of the chuck while boring; a bit of engineer's blue smeared on it can show you if your internal taper is off a bit and you can compensate before reaching final size.

Hope this helps  :thumbup:

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline andyf

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
  • Country: gb
    • The Warco WM180 Lathe - Modifications
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2011, 06:06:32 AM »
Making the thread for the closing nut a bit longer than strictly necessary would allow you to go a bit deep with the taper, then take facing cuts across the outer end until the collet projects by the right amount. That might be easier than trying to bore the taper exactly right; each time the taper is opened out a little more allows the collet (or gauge) to go quite a lot further in.

Looking at the length of "spare thread" shown on your last two photos, Arnold, makes me wonder if you had that in mind.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Country: sg
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2011, 07:22:34 AM »
Hi Arnold,

Thank you for sharing.  Really too many things to learn.

Hi AdeV, I try not to let any chance of clearing doubt slips by. With no experience & training in machining & engineering, I learn by reading & asking. Prefer to ask and watch videos as most of the time I don't understand what I'm reading. I'm more proficient with my financial calculator...  :D

I've wanting to know how to measure the smaller end of an external taper. My Sherline uses MT1 on the headstock & MT0 on the tailstock. Thinking of building some tapered tools.

 :mmr:


Regards,
Wong

Offline Fergus OMore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Country: england
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2011, 08:24:58 AM »

 My Sherline uses MT1 on the headstock & MT0 on the tailstock. Thinking of building some tapered tools.

 :mmr:


Regards,
Wong

Might I suggest that you save yourself a lot of time and anxiety by buying soft( that means easily machinable) No1 and no ) Morse taper blanks?

Again, there is a lot of information which can be accessed from sites such as Yahoo Unimat which deals with the smaller lathes and making accessories for them.

Offline arnoldb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
  • Country: na
  • Windhoek, Namibia
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 05:20:43 AM »
Pleasure Wong.

Quote
Really too many things to learn.
Don't fret too much; just take it a bit at a time and things get easier  :thumbup:

I have some projects to finish off right now, but in the next couple of months I'll be making quite a bit of taper tooling, so I'll be sure to share the details.

Like Fergus said, you could buy some of the things, but a lot of what I need is not conveniently available locally, so I'll just make it; besides, it adds to the fun in the shop  :thumbup:

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline Fergus OMore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Country: england
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2011, 06:33:11 AM »

I was wondering about whether the lathe had a taper turning device or whether Wong would dare off set the tailstock.
OK, I know that there are other ways but??????

I would probably turn two rings in a bit of round to the larger and smaller diameters instead of - what's the maths? 0.250" in 10" or 1 degree 26 minutes?  And that now varies with the original Morse taper intention.

Yea, I'm all for the easy life!

Cheers


Offline andyf

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
  • Country: gb
    • The Warco WM180 Lathe - Modifications
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 09:13:18 AM »
Hi Wong,

Do you have a compound slide on your Sherline? If so, it probably has enough travel to cut MT0 and MT1 tapers which are long enough to work. Strictly, they should respectively be 2" and 2.13" long, but the smaller of my lathes is MT0 in both the spindle and tailstock, and uses a shortened 1.25" version of MT0 (the thin end is absent) with no problems.

Blank ended arbors in MT0 and MT1 are a bit hard to find. There are some in MT1 about 1/3 way down this page http://www.modelmakingsupplies.co.uk/taper-tooling-2-2.htm . The only place I know of for MT0 is Cowells Small Machine Tools, but their prices are horrifying.

Andy
Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Fergus OMore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Country: england
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2011, 10:05:17 AM »

Think Pultra Ten milli and perhaps Chronos for  0MT and 1MT.

 I had a Pultra 10.

As Mr Punch said-- that's the way to do it!

Offline andyf

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
  • Country: gb
    • The Warco WM180 Lathe - Modifications
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2011, 10:45:15 AM »
Chronos does indeed sell 1MT arbors, rather cheaper than the outfit I suggested. I don't think they do 0MT, though. Maybe Sherline have those.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Fergus OMore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Country: england
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2011, 11:31:26 AM »

Andy,
         I'm just as confused because I DID get 0MT from them. They still have 0MT centres which suggests a crafty  sticking- or silver soldering soft blanks to accomodate the 'interesting' ends.  If they are only case hardened, grind off the sufficiently to get in and make up holders for milling cutters etc. I have a huge collection of them- mainly in 2MT. My 'last' Chronos no1's went into a Stent to do the abrasive  wheels.

But, between us, we have solved GerryB's cat head chucks. Chronos stocks them!

My thanks and kind regards

Offline wongster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Country: sg
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2011, 09:37:34 PM »

Might I suggest that you save yourself a lot of time and anxiety by buying soft( that means easily machinable) No1 and no ) Morse taper blanks?

Again, there is a lot of information which can be accessed from sites such as Yahoo Unimat which deals with the smaller lathes and making accessories for them.

Thank you for your suggestion.  They are available for sale on Sherline's.  What I'm trying also to do at the same time is to learn how to make one myself.  There were times when I just needed one and shipping one in takes weeks.  Several examples were given on the net on using blanks.

Regards,
Wong

Offline wongster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Country: sg
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2011, 09:49:46 PM »
Hi Wong,

Do you have a compound slide on your Sherline? If so, it probably has enough travel to cut MT0 and MT1 tapers which are long enough to work. Strictly, they should respectively be 2" and 2.13" long, but the smaller of my lathes is MT0 in both the spindle and tailstock, and uses a shortened 1.25" version of MT0 (the thin end is absent) with no problems.

Blank ended arbors in MT0 and MT1 are a bit hard to find. There are some in MT1 about 1/3 way down this page http://www.modelmakingsupplies.co.uk/taper-tooling-2-2.htm . The only place I know of for MT0 is Cowells Small Machine Tools, but their prices are horrifying.

Andy
Andy

Hi Andy,

I have the compound.  Hardly use it though.  Several examples can be found on cutting the MT's but I find measuring the smaller end a challenge.  I once bought from a UK site a MT0 live centre which was a little too long.  I was trying to figure out how much to cut from the smaller end so that it fits into the tailstock properly.  I went with the recommended amount.  It seems to seat well but there is some wobbling  at the live centre end.  Don't know if its because of the taper or the live centre not being spot on.

Hi Fergus,

I can purchase the offset centre from Sherline.  Most folks offset their headstock on their Sherline lathe instead.  I'll be trying that soon.

Arnold, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Regards,
Wong

Offline Fergus OMore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Country: england
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2011, 08:57:07 AM »

  I once bought from a UK site a MT0 live centre which was a little too long.  I was trying to figure out how much to cut from the smaller end so that it fits into the tailstock properly.  I went with the recommended amount.  It seems to seat well but there is some wobbling  at the live centre end.  Don't know if its because of the taper or the live centre not being spot on.

Arnold, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Regards,
Wong

I've got a very strange answer- you bought a Number 1 Morse Taper!

This may be difficult to understand at first but I did really answer it earlier when I said-- 0.250" in 10".
The taper was the same for ALL the Morse Tapers but because we are a stupid lot and can't measure, there are now slight discrepancies between the various sizes.

Sorry Arnold for also hi-jacking your thread but this problem is fundamental stuff.

Offline wongster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Country: sg
Re: General purpose ER 11 collet chuck
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2011, 09:39:14 AM »
Strange indeed. But it was advertised as MT0... Think I have to start paying more attention to things I buy.

Regards,
Wong