Author Topic: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build  (Read 64522 times)

lordedmond

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2011, 01:10:10 PM »
Peter (Klank)

lathe back stop

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4693.0


BTW boiler done, tested, lagged and test fired  ( I did put in some stays as I intend to use it at its design SWP not the derated one ) now to get on and get my scale injector for the class 4 tank tested
cannot post any pic as they are 50 meg after they have been in PS5

Stuart

Offline klank

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2011, 01:25:23 PM »
I decided to do the piston and its rod next.

A casting in gun metal for the piston is provided (with a nice chucking piece) together with a goodly length of 3/16 stainless steel rod. There is plenty of meat provided.

Here's the casting :-




The sides of the piston were all reasonably parallel, and after holding the main body in the three jaw, the chucking piece was skimmed down its length until running parallel.
I then held this in a collet for the main machining of the piston body to just oversize finished diameter and length.
It was drilled tapping size through, tapped 3/16 X 40 ME for the rod and counter bored half way through 3/16 for the un threaded part of the rod.


 



The rod is screw cut 3/16 X 40 ME for half the length of the finished piston whilst held in a collet with as little overhang as possible.

The chucking piece was then carefully sawn off, and the threaded end piston rod screwed on and held with thread lock and left to cure.

The rod with piston attached was then held in a collet, with the piston close to the collet face.
The final machining could then be carried out to bring the diameter to a good fit in the cylinder and length to what was required using very very light cuts with a very sharp tool.

A silicone O ring is supplied for the piston and precise dimensions given for cutting the O ring groove, to allow for a little bit of "roll" in the O ring lengthways in the groove when under power.
This was quite a fiddly operation to get exact, using a combination of a thin "pointy" tool to start, then a very sharp thin bladed parting tool.
The piston/rod should not be moved in the collet until all these operations have been completed (to keep everything concentric to the rod).
Here is the finished piston/rod with the O ring fitted. :-





Now to start the cylinder end - covers.
These are the castings supplied in the kit.
They are somewhat "coned" but with a reasonable anount of meat to play with.
The inner end cover casting has a rough "spigot" for the stuffing box. :-


 


Starting with this one - the inner cover - I firstly held the casting in the three jaw, using my chuck back stop, with the spigot outermost, so this could be lightly machined to get its sides parallel.
The spigot could then be held in the three jaw (with backstop) for turning the main body true (removing the cone) and facing off the outer skin/debris. :-




The casting could then be turned around and held in the reversed jaws, plus back stop, to machine the spigot true and the outer face of the cover.








It was then pilot drilled through and the spigot counterbored for the piston rod gland.

The spigot could then be held in a collet, the main body brought to length and a register cut on (what is) the inner face to be a close fit in the inner face of the cylinder bore. The cylinder was brought up to try the "fit" repeatedly.
The outer diameter was then finished to match that on the cylinder casting, and the pilot hole then reamed for the piston rod.
Once again, all of these operations must be carried out at the same set up to ensure concentricity and the register/face is at 90 degrees to the piston rod reamed hole. :-


 


The outer end cover next - a slightly more difficult item as it doesn't have a spigot - I'll do that tomorrow.

Thanks for the encouragement

Peter

Offline klank

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2011, 01:29:40 PM »
Hi Stuart,
I just saw your post after finishing today's post on the build.
Thank you for giving the link to the back stop.

Wow, you didn't hang around doing your boiler - glad it all worked first time for you.

Good luck with the class 4.

Peter

lordedmond

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2011, 01:42:57 PM »
Thanks Peter


as I have said I am mobility challenged from the waist down but ok above the belt , as I gave up work ( retired ) at 50 that was 15 years ago I have plenty of time , but I do have to work when the pain is under control

BTW your build is coming along at a good pace also , I do agree with others it is sometimes quicker and cheaper to use bar stock , but as Doris came from GLR i am familiar with there castings with the loco build you have no choice ( i think when I got the cylinder castings they cost the same as your Tina kit  but they were fully core as per full size )  nut of the OT I will not clutter up your thread


Stuart

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2011, 02:04:33 PM »
In the latest copy of Model Engineer no 4404 vol 206 an article by the editor on machining a similar cylinder using a Keats angle plate. There is more than one way to cook eggs.
If you have one DO make sure that the base is square to the vee. If its not correct it before you need it.
Pete

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2011, 02:29:17 PM »
Loco,

I had a look around the Warco site but couldn't find any Keats plates, but there was this one, which is similar, but a little limited at how small an item it can hold.

http://www.warco.co.uk/Cylinder-Clamp-6798081E8B.aspx


Bogs
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline loco

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2011, 06:45:25 PM »
volume 4402 features how do make the cheap chinese version accurate.
I will check mine tomorrow to see how small a piece it will take. These can also be used on the mill as well as a faceplate.
Pete

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #82 on: May 15, 2011, 03:32:57 PM »
The boiler  -   The final instalment.

The original drawings were on A2 and are fine except that no bushes are shown on the tube plate and that safety valve. The bush sizes are shown later and should be 5/16 x 32 as should the connector and nut. They are shown as 26 tpi as at the time Kennions had a lot of 26tpi fittings but 32 tpi is better and also allows fittings to be lined up easier.

Stan Bray used these drawings to write the article and it contains the reprints. Somehow there is no drawing of the bushes, just a mention in passing but at least you can make the boiler from them.

Round about 2005 Willie Schneeberger in Germany decided to improve matters by redrawing the whole lot on CAD and on A4 sheets. I perused them and considered them a load of **************.  I produced a long list of corrections but from what I have seen they were never altered and these are the ones sent out - warts and all.
If you have a set of these contact me off line and I will send you a copy privately as I do not wish to put them here. The enclosed drawing shows the position of the bushes. Do not put the lower water gauge bush any lower as there will be little enough water over the boiler crown. The correct water level is 1/2 to 2/3 of a glass.

The bushes for the top tubeplate should be  od 9/16, spigot od  7/16 and threaded 5/16 and those on the front are  od 7/16, spigot 5/16 and threaded 1/4 x 40. If you follow Stan's 'words and music' you WILL get a successful boiler.

Anyone who really has a difficulty then please contact me off line and I will so my best to help you. Perhaps builders and prospective builders could print these jottings out and fix them to the drawings. Still to come -  what it really looks like.
Pete
ps Drawing to follow

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #83 on: May 15, 2011, 04:08:19 PM »

Offline loco

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #84 on: May 15, 2011, 04:30:26 PM »


THATS ALL FOLKS :lol:

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #85 on: May 15, 2011, 07:36:46 PM »
Sorry,
forgot to mention that ALL bushes must be made from Bronze or gunmetal and NEVER brass,
Pete

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2011, 12:09:15 PM »
A couple of set backs this last week.

My internet connection was severed (literally) by a back hoe on a JCB - my little town has embraced the need for a super sized supermarket to be built in what was formerly the town centre car-park. Utter chaos now.
That severence blew out the local server for my internet provider - and after about ten phone calls to Bombay seeking technical help (for which you have to pay for the privilege), I was told that the network was supposedly restored. It took nearly 7 days to sort!

The outer cylinder end-cover has no chucking piece and is somewhat risky to hold in the three jaw, given the "coning" of the outer edges.
SB recommends cleaning it up a bit and trying to get it to run as true as possible in the three jaw. Then centre drill and tap it 2BA and make up a similarly threaded stub mandrel from a bit of scrap bronze or gun metal bar and screw it into the "domed" side of the outer cover :-





This then provides a temporary chucking piece to machine the outer circumference true and to dimension, the inner (flat) face, bring it to thickness and machine the register on it.
The stub can then be unscrewed and the cover reversed, the stub screwed back in, and the outer (domed) face machined. The dome can be finished (bar final finish/polishing etc.) by careful twiddling of the top and cross slides.
The stub is then sawn off flush with the inner (flat) face.  :-





The original plan calls for just 6 (7BA) fixings for the end covers to the cylinder block. To my mind, this does not look quite right.
SB goes a bit overboard in his build, doing 24 (!!!) 10 BA holes at each end - with my luck, a sure fire recipe for a thin tap to break off somewhere.
I opted to go for 8 (7BA) fixings.
I marked out and drilled them in the end covers using my rotary table with home made chuck adapter/receiver.
The cylinder ends were spotted through and drilled/tapped. It is worth using a small "T" piece type hand tap holder and a bush to centre the tap. Assuming all of the holes in the cylinder block are all to the same depth, count the number of turns of the tap until slight resistence is felt for tapping the first hole. Then stop!! You now know (theoretically!) how many turns each of the others should take - just a safety tip. For those of you reading this and thinking of building the same - for a depth of about 5.5mm, it takes 19 half turns! (I guess someone can work out the maths based on thread pitch etc.)   

Then setback number two.
I successfully milled the three finger shaped steam ports in the valve face of the cyl. casting. I used my height gauge to mark out accurately.
Dimensions are given for milling a small "pocket" at each end face of the cylinder casting, adjacent to its valve face.
From these, three holes are drilled at each end at 30 degrees to meet the steam ports.
The first (inboard) end went reasonably well.
I was using a 1/8" Clarkson type two flute cutter (on a 1/4" shank) to mill the marked out pocket.
Stupidly, without realising how bad this is - I used my trusty set of ER32 metric collets - essentially forcing the 1/4" shank into a 6mm collet.
Without realising it, I had fractured the shank as I tightened up the collet ring at the junction of the plain part to the clarkson threaded part of the shank.

Fairly obvious to all you experienced builders - but I have learned - metric collet = metric cutter. Don't force an imperial one into a collet that's basically too small - especially a Clarkson one! I used an ER32 "5-6mm" collet - I should have used the "6-7mm" collet.

As I was milling the pocket, I realised the cutter seemed to be too deep. The fractured end was walking out of the collet. I ended up with a pocket 2mm too deep at one point. This would have repurcussions with the piston stroke.

The only way to retrieve the situation (apart from buying a replacemnt cyl. casting - cost around £40!!!) was to do a "dentist" job.
I milled out the pocket square and silver soldered a piece of scrap gun metal roughly filed to size into the enlarged pocket.
The cylinder was then set up again in the Keats angle plate, with the "good" end outermost. It was set up to turn true with a clock on the inner bore and then the inner end re-bored very carefully to remove the overspill of material and silver solder.
The three steam passages were then drilled.  :-





I was a bit close to one of the tapped holes for the end cover - but all is well.
You can just see the "seam" below the pocket in the bore.

The final item was the piston rod stuffing gland - nothing appeared to be provided for this in my kit of parts (the plans said this is made from a casting!), so I turned it up from a short length of 19mm bronze bar.  :-




Slide bars next.   


 

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2011, 12:22:25 PM »
Hi Peter


Glad to see your still on building the engine  :thumbup:  ,,,,, good idea making a chucking piece so you could hold the cylinder cover  :med:


Keep it coming Rob

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2011, 02:31:49 PM »
Very nice build  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2011, 02:30:26 AM »
Peter

Digging holes can land you in lots of trouble, the spread of the hyper markets its a curse on us all.

Nice work with the cylinder, mandrels are one of my favorate aids.  :ddb: :headbang:


Stew
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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2011, 10:06:09 AM »
Peter

I am taking a particular interest in your build as I have the castings for the same build. Is it an optical delusion or are the PCD's of the holes on the cylinder ends at a different pitch? The plan shows the cylinder ends at 1 3/4" diameter, but my casting is not completely cleaned up and it's less than that already. I will have to stick a piece onto one of the feet as the caster must have had a new belt on his sander and been a little too enthusiastic.

I have made an excel speadsheet whereby you enter the fractions in one column and metric dimensions are churned out in another. This sheet is then kept with the drawings for constant referral. :)

Pete

Offline klank

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2011, 01:20:51 PM »
Thanks Stew, Benni and Rob - I appreciate the encouragement.

Pete - yup, you spotted my unfortunate error.

The casting as provided had a rough bore, a little out of true with the shoulders of the casting - particularly so at the "outboard" end. It was only after finishing the bore as shown that this became more evident.
I should have originally set up to bore the casting, based on the casting's shoulders as a sort of datum, rather than taking the centre(ish) of the wood filled original bore.
After completing the cylinder bore, I machined the outboard end shoulder at the same setting as for the bore itself, to get it to look better - but the outer shoulder diameter, once round and true had reduced by a couple of mm. from what it should have been.
I made the outer cover to fit, but had to reduce the PCD for the bolt holes accordingly. So, yes, one end cover is slightly smaller than the other, with a reduced PCD.
A mistake I have learned from for the future.

This error in original setting up was pointed out to me by a friend - but I didn't really understand what was meant at the time.
There is an article in the recent ME about doing this sort of det up properly properly, by Dave Clarke - when he machined the cylinder casting for a "Monarch" engine. I wish I had read that in time and understood that the way I went about it was wrong!
As a legacy of reducing the PCD - I may have a latent problem now in steam leakage around one of the securing studs being too close to the steam "pocket" edge. I shall possibly have to deal with that later!

Anyway - I do hope my mistakes may help you avoid doing the wrong set up.

Best wishes

Peter

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2011, 06:15:55 PM »
Anyway - I do hope my mistakes may help you avoid doing the wrong set up.

Peter

Thanks for sharing the info. I do have to learn from the mistakes of others, as I do not have enough time left to learn from just my own. :thumbup:

Pete

Offline klank

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2011, 10:42:25 AM »
Just a few bits to add - its been very very hot in the garage/workshop - we're in a bit of a drought down here.

The piston rod crosshead is machined out of a piece of 1/2" sq. bar :-




Machining is quite straightforward - ends up like this :-





I should add that the "rounded" inner face of the fork needs to be fully "squared off" afterwards - or the little end of the piston rod will not fit properly.

The slide bars are machined from two pairs of castings - two each of tops and bottoms - bolted together, but held apart by 1/8" brass spacers.
The main points to watch are that the slide faces, both in the vertical and horizontal plane are truly at right angles and that the lower horizontal face of each is exactly the same and at centre height of the cylinder, less half the thickness of the crosshead slipper.
I machined the lower slidebars together in the milling vice, using parallels and a spacer between them. :-





The slippers are againg machined from the remaining (supplied) 1/2" square bar stock.
They are, I suppose, like a pair of thin T nuts, with a blind hole inset in the base part.
To ensure concentricity, I marked out the centre point of the hole using an optical centre pop, but then, having set the work up in the milling vice, cross checked using a laser edge/centre finder in the drill chuck and finding centre by dial reading from the edges. You can just make out the laser dot on the right hand slipper :-






The hole, according to the plan is supposed to be "reamed" 3/16" to a depth of 4mm!
I used a 3/16" drill after pilot drilling and finished with a "D" bit.

I then tried a "dry run" to fit some components together prior to final marking out for drilling/tapping the baseplate. :-





At last its starting to look like an engine!

Best wishes

Peter

Offline klank

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #94 on: June 16, 2011, 12:38:56 PM »
Its taken a little while to pluck up courage to write this next chapter, but a good friend suggested I should, in order that it MIGHT prevent other beginners from making the (potentially very) harmful mistake(s) I have recently achieved.

For those more experienced builders who may read this - look kindly upon me please - I made a complete male chicken of the flywheel and nearly killed myself!

Here goes.
Having seen all of the recent really beautiful engines being built, I decided that before I carried on with the build, I should make the finish on my flywheel look a bit more professional. It will be painted later, but compared to other engines on display, I could do a lot better.
It ran quite true - no sign of wobble, but the surface finish on the shoulders of the rim and spoke web was poor. Probably as a result of tool chatter and not using HSS tooling (I don't want to get into the argument of tipped vs. HSS tooling here).

Anyway, I set up the flywheel again in my 5" four jaw with the jaws reversed, clocked it true to the outer rim and tried to gently skim the offending area on the side of the rim first.
The flywheel is approx. 6" dia, and the chuck scrolls were not on their limits. However, I put some "squashy" plastic card packing under each jaw to prevent marking the rim.
I was using a right hand tool, bringing it towards me across the rim shoulder with very light cuts only at about 350 rpm. A nice hissing noise, with fine dust being produced.
I got to the end of the final cut, and just as the tool met the corner of the edge of the shoulder/rim face, I became aware of something coming rapidly at my face.
Now I do wear protective kit :- safety 'specs, a heavy leather chest apron and a hide gauntlet on my left hand (hot swarf protection).
I moved my head to the right without thinking and the flywheel, spinning like a gyroscope, struck me on the left side of my chin, ran down the side of my throat, bounced off my collar bone and landed, spinning, on my left foot! At the time there was no pain.

I picked it up - no obvious damage, and decided to go indoors and get a cuppa tea.
My wife asked about "all of that blood on your neck!" and realized then that the rim corner - as sharp as a scalpel, had left a fine cut all down my neck.
Just a fraction deeper - is that where my jugular is?

Anyway - my completely stupid errors - learned a lot from this! :-
 
I should have used copper or thin aluminium packing (drinks' can or some such) under the jaws.
The tool should have been going away from me.
I should have brought up the tailstock with a centre in it, against the hub of the wheel.

I guess I was lucky (this time!.
Yes - I should have done it better - but I did not realise the potential for injury/damage with the wrong set up!

Anyway, I re-machined the rim shoulders again on each side (doing it the correct way and with better non-slip packing), and realised that overall, the thickness of the 'wheel was a little less than it should be.
 
As a "sop" to my stupidity, and to give the engine a bit more texture (and try and replace some of the missing inertia of a fatter 'wheel) - I sourced a small cast iron flywheel from RDG Tools (usual disclaimer). They are selling off some surplus Stuart cast iron 'wheels of various sizes at quite attractive pricing.

I machined this to resemble a grooved pulley wheel to drive steel ropework, and mounted it on the overhang of the crankshaft with a key. Not my idea I must hasten to add - I have seen other competed Tina engines with this "extra" - but it does add a bit more to the overall look of the thing I think. :-








A sobering episode!
 

Offline doubleboost

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #95 on: June 16, 2011, 06:06:20 PM »
At least you are ok  :D :D :D :D
You can always see the mistakes after they happen
I had a small truck flywheel come out of a chuck at work years ago the ring gear climbed up the wall  :bugeye: :bugeye:, scares me to death thinking about it now.
Engine is looking great  :) :) :)
John

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #96 on: June 17, 2011, 01:23:20 AM »
Hi Pleased you lived to tell the tail its always worth relating such incident as others can also learn from them.

I had a similar things happen with a fly wheel but this time it flew of an engine, I decided to experiment by adding a ball bearing to the rocker engine I built, the fly wheel is only small about 2" Dia and i stuck the bearing on with loctite, well the bearing worked a treat it ran like the clapers, then the fly wheel flew off (is that why they call them fly wheels  :scratch:) ) did a couple a laps of the shop and crashed against the door, it could quite easily have taken by eye out.

Your engine is looking a treat I like the aditional drive pully, nice work.

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

Stew
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Offline klank

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #97 on: June 17, 2011, 05:52:06 AM »
John, Stew - thankyou both for the kind words and encouragement.

Just when you think you are doing well - you can get a bite on the bum! Sobering to realise what potential for injury/damage there is in what we do!

What you said is much appreciated.

Peter

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #98 on: June 20, 2011, 01:43:55 PM »
Finally - I got round to the valve chest components.

Here is the valve chest casting as supplied. :-





 
I rather liked the slightly "raised" pad on the side where the steam inlet piping will go and decided to keep it and make it a little more prominent.
After some basic machining in the 4 jaw and mill I ended up with this - ready for drilling/counter drilling for the valve rod gland.  :-





Here is the set up for drilling the 1/4" (blind) hole (for the gland bush), having marked out and popped the mark for the valve spindle - clocking it with a wobbler - SB recommended using washers to protect the larger faces of the valve chest and allow the jaws to grip over the centre recess.
The hole was finished with a D bit :-




No material appeared to be supplied for the valve spindle gland itself, so I turned one from a length of bronze bar and filed the flange to match the shape of the larger shoulder on the end of the valve chest.
The 1/8" hole for the valve spindle was drilled/reamed in the 4 jaw with the gland fitted and secured to the chest with two studs and washers.
The "packing" in the 1/4" gland hole is a neoprene O ring (supplied).
Sorry about the camera shake! :-





The really time consuming/fiddly bit next - making the cover, marking out for the stud holes, drilling/tapping everything and cutting/finishing the studs.

According to the plan, the valve chest cover is a gun-metal casting, but nowadays, a length of brass flat is supplied.
The original plan shows a shallow (1/16") pocket/recess machined into the inside face of the cover, lining up with the area of the valve chest swept by the slide valve.
I was told by GLR that this pocket is no longer necessary - just "make the lid out of the brass flat!"
If anyone reading this who knows about these things - is the shallow pocket important? I don't know - it was obviously put there originally. Does it make the running of the valve more efficient under steam?
I suppose the flat brass "lid" outer surface lends itself to some "embellishment" - HH, in his later build of Tina, etched his initials into the surface - looks very nice! There is a good article on etching in the current issue of MEW.
 
The original plan calls for 8 x 7BA studs - which SB thinks a little too basic and unprototypical.
After much measuring and head scratching, I marked out for 14 x 8BA studs - but at this time, only drilled for 13 of them.
I am not certain yet what type of union to drill/tap for in the steam inlet pad, and I don't know how much "meat" I will have to play with for the centre stud hole in the upper side of the valve chest. I don't want to end up drilling into a steam passageway.
I ensured my hole spacings would not intrude into the angled internal steam ports in the cylinder.
The really fiddly bit was finishing to length all of the studs from 8BA allthread. I really should get around to making a screw/stud cutting - to - length - jig - useful for all of the myriad of studs needed in an engine!
Anyway - here is the cylinder with valve chest and cover temporarily mounted, minus one stud hole! :-





The valve and steam chests DO line up properly - there is a shadow on the edge of the left hand side of the steam chest where there is a slight casting flaw on the face/edge of the port face of the cylinder!

Maybe I'll have a go at the valve eccentric and strap tomorrow.   

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Tina :- Engine and Boiler Build
« Reply #99 on: June 20, 2011, 04:57:13 PM »
 :drool: Hi Peter  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: doing a grand job  :clap: :clap: :clap:


You sure have made good head way since i last looked in  :bugeye:


Rob