Author Topic: Folding Electric Guitar  (Read 31636 times)

Offline Bernd

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 08:32:32 AM »
Bog's,

For a guy who doesn't like to work with wood you sure made that look very nice. The engine turning looks terrific.  :thumbup:

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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2011, 11:40:55 AM »
John,

I just made what was necessary to get the job done, making sure that everything was as rigid and protected as possible. I could have made the neck head a lot smaller, but it would have meant threading the strings rather than just sliding a pin and hooking the string in place, in other words, ease of use.

I'm no banjo player, so I don't know if it balanced up or not, but I have had no complaints about it so far.

Bernd,

In this situation, wood reacted exactly the same as metal when it was clamped to the mill. The main problem I did have was holding all the curvy bits rigid and square enough to make sure everything fitted together after machining. I managed to keep the wood within a max of a couple of thou of the machined metal parts.

BTW, I have just finished of a piece of the brown stuff for Stew, in his latest post, it doesn't look too bad seeing that I hate the stuff. Marvellous what you can do with a mill and flycutter.


John
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2011, 12:50:34 PM »
Saw the base already John. Nice by the way.

I'm sure it was a bear trying to hold the stuff in the vice. Still very nice job.

Bernd
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Offline saw

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2011, 04:44:13 PM »
It's nice built, but why change the guitar? Was it not good enough??  :doh:
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Offline mklotz

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2011, 05:06:48 PM »
Innovative, professional work as usual, John.  We expect that of you and you always deliver.

I'm very enthused about the idea of a folding electric guitar.  Being able to  compact them will make it so much easier to fit them into the dumpsters when the people who actually like music take over and eliminate rock 'music' from the face of the earth.
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Offline HS93

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2011, 05:18:01 PM »
It's nice built, but why change the guitar? Was it not good enough??  :doh:

are you deliberatley trying to be funny? read the sign on the door, it says MAD MODDERS, we would be running around in model T Fords still if we went by your way of thinking.

Peter
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2011, 06:04:46 PM »
It's nice built, but why change the guitar? Was it not good enough??  :doh:

Saw

I can see why you would ask this question. I can also see that you didn't bother to go back and read any of the earlier posts in this thread. If you would have than you would not have had to ask "why change the guitar" I could very well tell you why but I am not going to. If you are interested in learning why then go back and start reading this thread from the beginning. You won't have to read very far before you have your answer.   :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2011, 06:08:36 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everything else on this mod revolves around what I am about to do, that is the folding bit.

As mentioned by Spud when I first showed this build, this neck was held on with just four wood screws. If this project was going to be successful, ALL wood to wood joints needed to be got rid of and replaced with metal to metal joints, they would be a lot more stable.

I could have made a very complicated hinge system, but it was decided by my man that he would be much happier making it as simple as possible, so he bought me some screw in toggle clamps to play with.




So now started the exercise in making things strong enough. Wherever something needed to be screwed into the wood, I made inserts that were screwed and epoxied into the wood for the machine screws to be screwed into. A bit like the Helicoil system, but larger.




Once the glue had dried, the heads were very carefully machined off to exactly level with the wood face.




This is how the screws then fitted.




Rough first trial front




Rough first trial back




Now came the time to beef up the body mounting. Where the bolts went thru the body, and where the brass inserts sat against, ali top hat sections were epoxied into the body and machined flush. When the neck and body screw together, they are metal to metal contacts. Some locating spigots were also fitted in the body that also went into holes drilled in the neck. That ensured that the neck always went back in the same position, with no side to side play.




A large spreader plate was then made, to spread the load from the toggle clamps over a larger area, especially when the guitar is in playing mode, as shown in the last picture, where the load is spread over the back of the guitar.
The recesses in this plate are to take the shaped thrust washers that came with the screw toggle clamps. The plate also fits on the other side when the neck is folded.




The neck firmly clamped in position. It only takes about a minute to go from playing to folded.




Now that the guitar was rigid, it was time to see what could be done with the strings. It was now that things started to get very technical and critical.


Bogs


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Offline dsquire

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »
John

Very interesting and very nicely executed but then we would expect nothing less from you. Thanks again for taking us along for the ride.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2011, 06:17:52 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:


Bogs


Proves I have trained him well   :lol:

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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2011, 06:21:23 PM »
Thanks Don,

Up to this point, things were fairly straight forwards, just pure mechanics.

I hope next time you will see that the major part of this mod is getting the strings under control, and it caused me a lot of head scratching as I attempted to solve each problem as I hit it.


John,

I have no doubt that our US cousins cannot understand a lot of our very sarcastic humour. I just hope that they can pick some of it up, otherwise I can see it at some time causing major issues.




John


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Offline saw

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2011, 06:43:22 PM »
Sorry Don, I have read the story before, but I'll forgot... :doh:
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2011, 06:49:33 PM »
Sorry Don, I have read the story before, but I'll forgot... :doh:

Saw

Apology accepted. Thanks.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline mklotz

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2011, 07:06:28 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ah, yes, British humour.  It's almost as laughable as British cuisine.  (But what can one expect from a country whose only spice is water?)
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Offline HS93

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2011, 07:15:08 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ah, yes, British humour.  It's almost as laughable as British cuisine.  (But what can one expect from a country whose only spice is water?)

And almost as funny as American map reading.   




I rest my case :lol:

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Peter  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2011, 07:44:08 PM »
As long as it's not this water ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13874089

John S.
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2011, 08:02:32 PM »
I was doing this project 'on the fly', that is, modifying and making as I went along, solving problems as they reared their ugly heads.

So ignoring all the wiggly amp stuff, my man's problems, not mine. I just left the holes where his bits went alone, except for drilling a few necessary holes in the bottom of them so that I could epoxy in a few tophat sections with threads in, just so that I could tighten up any screws that I used.

So the head and neck was done, and the next area to be looked at was where the strings go thru the body.

The next place that the strings hit was the 'Whammy' or tremelo bar. This little piece of metal caused quite a bit of trouble, as it had a taper on the front, and slack screws, allowing it to wobble about. I needed it to be perfectly level and rigidly fixed.

So onto the grinder to have the taper taken off. I then epoxied a bit of brass plate onto where it had been ground.




That plate was then ground level with the rest.




After drilling the thru holes, it clamped solidly to the body.




There were all sorts of screws and plates that fixed onto the whammy bar that turned the strings thru 90 degrees, and kept the strings at the correct height to the frets, so they had to stay, but everything after that was mine, and even at this early stage, I was knocking up rough sketches, to remind me what was needed to keep total control of string tension.




I made a pair of these rollers, one to go on the underside of the whammy bar plate, the other to control the next right angle turn on the back of the body. I kept a standard string pitch from the neck head right thru to the final tensioning block of 10.5mm, and it worked out just right.




It was now time to start making room for my bits. That was done on the mill using razor sharp tungsten milling cutters running at 1200 rpm. I found that gave me a very nice finish on the brown stuff, and which I could easily keep tolerances of 0.002" (0.05mm) so that my metal bits would fit nicely.

A split vice was used to hold the main body, and great care was taken to keep the cutter away from the paper towels used for padding, to prevent damage to the soft brown stuff.




Holes were drilled and tapped using standard metric taps. These were to take the brass inserts that were to be epoxied into the holes.




Just like this.




And they gave a very rigid fixing for the bottom set of rollers.

This shot shows both sets of rollers in position, and the strings, once threaded, have been sent back in the direction they once came.




This bit took a great amount of brainpower to figure out, the strings needed to be held very tight (no slippage), plus the holding block needed to end up at a metal to metal contact point, so that when the strings had their tension released for folding, afterwards, they would be pulled back into exactly the same position and so tension.

The brass clamping blocks were so designed to hold the strings very tight, but without causing damage. On replacing a string, the sliding block is put into a certain position using a setting block, and the string pulled tight before clamping. This worked very well indeed, and required very little tuning afterwards.
As you can see, this lot isn't quite finished.




The finger tensioning screw was made with a 90 degree inclusive taper on the end. This taper fitted into a matching taper in the sliding block. As it is tightened, the sliding block is not only brought into metal to metal contact, but because of the two matching tapers, into exactly the same position every time.




Once again, screwed inserts were used to give a firm anchor point. The two lower ones have yet to be fitted.




This is the finished string tensioner. All that needs to be done is the screw is fully undone and swung up out of the way. That allows the main block to slide backwards towards the rollers, and thus giving enough slack for the neck to be folded.
The reverse operation brings all strings back into nice tension.




The next time, I will be showing how the strings are tuned.


Bogs
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Offline Dean W

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2011, 08:49:44 PM »
It's fascinating, John.  Quite a complicated setup to have figured out as you go.  You must have been
thinking a fair bit ahead of the game for it to come out so well.  Very interesting to see how you did
things, after showing us the finished item first!
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2011, 12:13:30 AM »
Luckily Dean, like everything I do, I take lots of pictures. So no matter how long it is since I did the job, they remind me exactly how I did it.

I actually had everything worked out before I took the first cut. But very little of what I had sketched up was used, so I ended up winging it as I went along. In fact there was no way my original sketched pieces would have fit into the small space I eventually had to work with.


John
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Offline metalmad

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2011, 03:51:39 AM »
Hi Bogs
 Im looking forward to seeing how u solved the Tuning issue.
Great post  :clap: :clap:
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Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2011, 08:43:07 AM »
Very very awesome guitar. Extremely complex, yet very logical as it unfolds. No Pun Intended.

Awesome as usual John!
SPiN Racing

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2011, 04:05:12 PM »
Thanks for the comments everyone, it is much appreciated.

Now onto the final part of the project, and the bit that caused me the most head scratching. I had to replicate what the tuning knobs did on the original, but in a different way, plus it had to be bomb proof and keep exact tune, a thing the original tuning method couldn't do after the guitar was folded.

But first, I would like to show you one of my ideas that didn't make it from the sketch pad. This is the first idea that I came up with, instead of the final part that I showed last time. in fact there were a couple of others after this one that were also consigned to the 'has been' bin. By doing little C-o-C's like this, sitting down and looking at it for an hour or so, you can easily see the stumbling blocks that will crop up.

This one was rejected because it would not give enough slack on the strings to allow the detached neck to be repositioned, plus it would also foul the tuning method that already had a rough sketch done of it.




I started off with about the smallest size that I thought the tuning method could be squeezed into. I had already cut the six grooves at my 10.5mm pitch. I would be using the straight length of string between the two change of direction rollers that I showed last time, to carry out the tuning on, by pressing on the individual strings with bronze fingers.




So, now it was time to squeeze what I wanted into the overall size. I knew that I might need a fair amount of forwards movement to get the string tuned, plus I also knew the max I could have it move forwards, so I made the close tolerance fingers next, out of aluminium bronze with a very fine (56 tpi) left hand thread cut well down into the end of them. It required the left hand thread to give an instinctive movement of the tuning knobs. Turn the knob clockwise, and the finger would put more pressure on the string. I made a couple of spares at the same time.




Stainless rods were then single point threaded to give a very smooth and slop free fit into the fingers. You can't afford any sort of binding on something like this, it has to be smooth as silk otherwise the tuning might suffer.




An exercise was then carried out to lighten the main block as much as possible, but still retain enough support for the critical parts.




A lot more work was done on this tuning mechanism to get it to this stage from the last picture, and I don't want to show some of it, as that part could be a trade secret that I want to protect at this time.

I will just say one thing, this unit gave a very smooth operation with not one sign of backlash or undoing, that could cause problems by losing tune as the guitar was being played.




It was now time to get things into position in the body.




So back onto the mill. This is the roughing out.




Followed by a precision bit of machining, at least as best as the material would allow.




It fitted perfectly into the correct position.




Just a bit more machining, to allow room for fingers to get into the tuning knobs.




Looking good. Plenty of room, even for my gorilla sized fingers, and when viewed from the front, the tuning knobs cannot be seen.



So basically, except for a couple of fine tuning mods that I am keeping deathly quiet about, and having all of 'my man's' bits refitted, that is the finished project as you see in the first picture of this post.

I did need to keep a few things from your eyes, it was a stipulation that was given to me so that I could show you this project, and I hope it didn't spoil your enjoyment too much about how I went about it, and some of the stumbling blocks I faced along the way.

You wouldn't believe how much enjoyment I got from this project, even though I cursed it at times, as it was being done at a bad stage of my wife's and mine lives. But I must admit, there was never any pressure from my man, 'just do it when you feel like it' was what he used to say, so I did.

But it does prove, even though I hate working with the brown stuff, and can't play a single note of music, it didn't stop me from having a go and succeeding.

I hope it gives yourselves enough of a confidence boost to have a go at something you don't thoroughly understand. You never know, you might enjoy it.


Bogs
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Offline mike os

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2011, 04:16:12 PM »
wow... what can be said Bogs? cracking piece of work, some very inovative thinking and looks very smart too.

Thanks for sharing :D
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Offline jcs0001

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2011, 05:23:48 PM »
Bogs:

I really enjoyed your description of this project - fantastic.  I know that acoustic guitar players are always concerned about travel because often their instruments get damaged.  They are even more delicate because of the hollow bodies.  I suspect that there will be a good market for this travel guitar - a lot of players are willing to pay well for a solution to their problems.

Maybe you can put your talents to an acoustic (classical) version!! :palm:

Thanks,

John.

Offline DaveH

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2011, 07:01:41 PM »
John,

Great post. :clap:

Masterly and beautifully done. :clap:

Turned out to be a work of art. :clap:

 :beer:

Daveh
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