Author Topic: Folding Electric Guitar  (Read 31646 times)

Offline Bogstandard

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Folding Electric Guitar
« on: March 14, 2011, 12:40:56 PM »
Early on last year, I started a project that at the time had to be kept a bit of a secret. Even now I can't go into full details, but I have been given permission to show these few pics as a taster and maybe I can answer a few questions, as long as they don't go into too technical details.

I was approached by a gentleman (my man), to see if I could make a folding electric guitar. The reason being, if it could be made short enough, it could be carried as hand luggage rather than into the freight hold, where they sometimes get damaged. There were a few criteria, the main one being that it remains in tune, or very close when it is reassembled.

There are folding guitars on the market, and fairly cheap, around the 200 squid and upwards mark, but they all usually suffer from the same problem, going out of tune easily, plus of course, most of them look absolutely grotesque, some just looking like a plank of wood with a piano hinge in the middle.

This one isn't aimed at the mass market, but the more 'up market' kind of guitarist. I was in fact talking to a new aquaintance of mine last week, an old school rock guitarist from Thin Lizzie, Pilot and Bad finger fame, and he wants to give it a good try out. That just might open a few more doors for us. I met him because he had heard thru my friends that I do a bit of precision machining work, and because he had an on stage accident which stopped him performing live, he has gone back to his old profession of a camera lens wizard, and wants me to do a bit of R&D plus make a few parts for him.

So anyway, enough of the life history, lets get to telling you what happened. My 'man' had a few ideas, but basically, I had free reign to do the job, so I did. Planning and measuring came well before cutting.

Rather than waste a perfectly good 'banjo', as Peter (HS93) called it, one was purchased off eblag for less than 40 squid, and I duly set to work. It was stripped down to the last nut, bolt and bit of brown stuff.
This one shows the first stage, the back with the sticky out bit folded down. Notice also, even at this early stage, I realised that the string tweakers wouldn't be needed, so I just cut them off. That got rid of 6" in one easy action.




A front view. This was well within my man's specification, so I just carried on cutting and making.




There are well over 100 shots that I took of the complete build, but unfortunately those are the ones you don't get to see.

This is the finished banjo, showing the amount of work that needed to be done to keep the plonky string things under control, just so that when it was finally assembled, it stayed in tune. It is tuned by the row of knobs on the bottom of the body.




This is the front view, looking just like a normal guitar, except there is no tuning mechanism at the top of the neck and the sticky out thing that shakes the strings is missing.




Just a few bits of info.

Nothing could be made or fitted that would be attracted by a magnet, so it was all made from aluminium, brass, bronze and stainless steel, the fasteners as well.

All the woodcutting was done on my mill using razor sharp brand new tungsten tooling. The finishes came out perfect.

There is a lot more highly detailed work that is hidden, hence the lack of any more photos, plus it protects a few of my little secrets.


The things some of us get up to beggars belief.


Bogs
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 12:49:51 PM by bogstandard »
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Offline ieezitin

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 12:52:29 PM »
Well done John!. Goes to show what the old grey matter can do when necessity comes a knocking.

Alas I think the sex pistols had you beat by thirty years. They flung there rigs around and made collapsible units on stage in front of your eyes I seem to remember….. but they had a tuning problem too after they were finished.

Hope the venture works out for you both. Again a nice job looks real pleasing to the eye.


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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 12:54:40 PM »
I forgot to mention, ten months spare time work.

Bogs
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Offline spuddevans

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 03:15:24 PM »
Well done that man!!

A few years ago I built a couple of guitars from itch scratch, but I didnt have the machinery then to build the metal hardware, had to buy those bits. Knowing the tensions that are involved in a guitar, I am impressed with the engineering involved in making a folding version.

May I ask if the customer (your 'man') is happy with the tone of the instrument? and also did you keep the original electronics/pickups?


Tim
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 03:51:13 PM »
Tim,

All the electriconical bits and electric string that came off, went back on, and he says that the tone has changed a little, he reckons for the better. I don't understand things like that, he just says it is not as harsh as it used to be. It started life as a reasonably price Yamaha jobbie. But to me that means nothing, I just modded it using well known engineering practices and a little basic guitar knowledge that I picked up. The only things that didn't go back on were the string tensioners.

BTW, it is almost the same weight as the original, only a few ounces heavier.

It has been back and forwards to the continent a few times now, always in the cabin as hand luggage, and he uses it when living in hotel rooms, to save him having to go out drinking, just practising for a couple of hours each evening. He has had one fine string break in all that time, but he reckons it was something to do with how it was twisted around the ferrule that is on the end of each string.

I had great difficulty working out how to hold all the string stresses in check. Eventually, every screw that should have gone into wood had a dedicated brass bush epoxied into the brown stuff, and the wood screws replaced with metric threaded SS ones. You can see some of the top hat ones in the recess in second picture, they were for taking screws that came from the other side from the tensioning plates, hence the big top hat flanges, to spread the load over a larger area.

I hope that explained it OK.


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Offline mike os

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 04:44:52 PM »
nice job Bogs :nrocks: :bow: :bow:
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Offline spuddevans

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 05:43:41 PM »
and he says that the tone has changed a little, he reckons for the better. I don't understand things like that, he just says it is not as harsh as it used to be.

Just from the pics posted, it looks like the neck-to-body joint is more rigid and secure than the normal method (on mass-produced reasonably priced guitars ) of 4 fairly thin woodscrews thru a thin metal plate, so I would think that would add a more sustained quality to the tone.


Quote
It started life as a reasonably price Yamaha jobbie. But to me that means nothing, I just modded it using well known engineering practices and a little basic guitar knowledge that I picked up. The only things that didn't go back on were the string tensioners.

That's a good thing, most tuning problems on the more reasonably priced guitars are caused by the tuners, an easy and well-worth upgrade for for suchlike guitars is to buy a decent set of tuners.

Quote
BTW, it is almost the same weight as the original, only a few ounces heavier.

That's very impressive  :bow: :bow:

Quote
I hope that explained it OK.

Indeed it has, thank you for showing and sharing.


Tim
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Offline John Rudd

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 05:50:45 PM »
the sticky out thing that shakes the strings is missing.
Bogs

and is called a Whammy bar.....As used by the venerable Hank Marvin....  :bow:( I'm a closet Shads fan and have a red Fender Strat just like his.....

Nice work Bogs....
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 06:03:17 PM »
Thanks gents.

John,

I normally remember things, but sometimes I have lapses and can't remember the correct names, so I usually put the first descriptive thing that comes to mind. It saves having to stop the post while I go on searchabout for the correct term.

In fact, the plate it mounted on was one of the more difficult fixes, as you know the plate is loose, but just can't be screwed down tight because it has an angle underneath it, so a special very thin tapered shim had to be made so that it sat perfectly flat.

At least you understood what I meant.


John
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 06:08:07 PM by bogstandard »
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Offline Dean W

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 06:52:24 PM »
Quite interesting, John.  You do get up to some diverse projects in your shop.
Maybe someday we can see some of the construction pics, (after the patent has gone through?).  I think they
would be a good insight to how you figure these things out, which in itself is a good teaching tool.
Thanks for the pics!  Looks great, BTW.

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Offline BiggerHammer

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2011, 07:24:01 PM »
Just WOW!  :jaw:  Very nice work Sir, very nice indeed.

Offline saw

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 05:25:16 AM »
 :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 07:08:15 AM »
I'm really glad that a few of you enjoyed looking at what I get up to.

Yes Dean, I do get up to some unusual little projects, always have and most probably always will. I think it is because, thru the grapevine of long known friends and aquaintancies, I come into contact with a lot of, I wouldn't class as unusual, but different types of people who have a need of my services. One thing leads to another type of thing, and the word does get about, even internationally. People on here only see a small percentage of the jobs I do, most are just quickies that maybe only take an hour or so, but fulfill that persons need, where going elsewhere it would be rejected offhand because it would not be profitable enough for the machinist or shop to carry out.

Because they know I will always give my all to the job, no matter how unusual the request. If I can get it done, then fine, if I have total and utter failure, then also OK, but at least I gave it a go. I will tackle almost anything as long as it is legal. Plus I don't do it for the money, in fact most jobs I do, as long as I am not out of pocket, the normal charges are just return postage, I do it for the love of doing something unusual, and to help friends out. If I had charged the basic hourly rate for building the banjo, it would have come to many thousands of pounds, but as it was, no charges involved at all, I did it more for the challenge, and of course, because of it, I now have a new, very intelligent friend, who, if he does his job right, we might make a few pennies out of it, as he has done with all his other patent jobs, if we don't, I'm not all that bothered, I got all my enjoyment designing and making it, and he has ended up with a dream he could never have hoped to get done elsewhere.

In my little world, money isn't everything. Of course I have been bitten a few times, but they soon learned that if they do bite, because they came to me thru a grapevine, or personal invitation, they are classed as outcasts, not only in my little circle of friends, but word soon gets about and they end up with absolutely no help from anywhere.
A good example was the refurbish I did on a classic model steam engine. He tried to make large amounts of money out of my efforts, but by the time he had been destroyed on a couple of web sites, he ended up, as far as I know, a complete pariah.

John
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Offline GWRdriver

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2011, 08:12:37 AM »
and is called a Whammy bar.....
also called a tremelo or vibrato bar.
Cheers,
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Offline arnoldb

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2011, 11:28:23 AM »
Very well done indeed John; great result!

From some personal experience with guitars (I once tried to learn to play them, but found engineering is easier on my fingertips and ears), I know there's quite a bit of force pulling across the neck, so kudos to your engineering skills.
And the method you have adopted for adjusting the strings is really neat!

Kind regards, Arnold

Offline AdeV

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2011, 12:37:42 PM »
Very nice John, as you know I saw one of the bits "in production", and it looked very complicated...  :nrocks:

I still don't quite understand what happens to the strings when you fold it, and why they wouldn't go out of tune.... but, then, I haven't touched a guitar in 30 years, and never did make a tune on one...
Cheers!
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2011, 01:03:31 PM »
Hi Ade,

Where the cheapo ones fail, is that they still retain the rotary tuning spindles, where the strings pile up on themselves. If you can imagine when they are slackened, they can very easily unwind slightly, thru spring tension, and when retightened by bringing the two parts straight again, the strings can easily relay themselves into a different pattern on the spindle, so losing tune.

Before anyone comes in stating that using a clamp across the strings will stop that, I will tell you now, it doesn't, it was tried over and over again with tighter and tighter tensions and it stiill couldn't stop them relaying themselves into a different coilshape. Just as they start to become tensioned, they just move slightly. It could be done by using solid bars to trap the strings between, but they would damage them beyond use.

On the expensive ones, they go for a drum type system on the bottom of the body that keeps tension on the strings all the time, even when folded.

I can't go into detail about how mine works, sorry.


John
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2011, 01:32:36 PM »
That is a very unique and clever build. I am very impressed with how it turned out. I hope the patent bit works out for you.

Eric
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 05:22:11 PM »
When I was a student I worked in a local guitar shop at weekends. We held a good range of guitars and over the 3-4 years I worked there I only ever came across one folding guitar, it was accustic acutally and it was an absolute pile of .... !! We use to sell a few of the small body travelling guitars and we definately recommended them in preference to any folding guitar from our experience!

It is funny you used a Yamaha. I`m not to bad on the old Electric but the chap I use to work with was immense. During our free time when the shop was dead we use to have to tune them and just give them a "test". Out of everything he had to offer, Ibanez Gems, Strats, Les Pauls... he always went for a mid-low budget Yamaha -  sounded pretty good but played better than any of the expensive ones!

Interesting project ... I still have a block of wood in my workshop that I had glued and plained about a year ago in preparation to cutting an electric body from!  You have inspired me... maybe I`ll have to make it into a folder!!

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2011, 09:48:47 PM »
Hi John, that is a truly incredible job you've done there.  I truly hope you are able to lay some of the details out in public, my violin teacher would very likely be at me to do the same job for him, as he is active in a couple bands, and travels very much, including across the pond, periodically.  I've done quite a bit of work on various guitars and other instuments for him, in exchange for lessons, with his ideas musically, and my skills with wood and metal meshing nicely.  He is incredibly talented, and wishes to own and play just about any stringed instrument, and some others as well.  I never thought of such a thing, but I'm certain he'd be intrigued, and I'll have him look in on this post.  Is there any thread of when you been doing this?  :beer:  Cheers, Jack

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 02:45:17 AM »
Chris, have a go at making one. Unfortunately I won't be able to give you many pointers yet.

No Jack, what you see is it.

Maybe later, you will be able to see all the little bits 'n bobs.


John
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 05:16:33 AM »
John.

That's beautiful:clap:

David D
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Offline sorveltaja

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2011, 02:04:18 PM »
What can be said? just wonderful job, Bogs.

Bit of an offtopic, but if one wants to start building/modifying an electric guitar, do yourself a favor, and start with cheap and crappy one, just to get familiar, what prevents it to be an enjoyably played instrument. If all electric components are count out, mostly it is the neck, frets, saddle, and/or tuning hardware, that makes the bugger even impossible to tune correctly.

Look for guitar, that has preferably a maple neck, as it is rather stable material. And definitely worth some work.

Check if the frets are equally thick. If they aren't, maple/rosewood fretboard is bumpy, so frets should be removed, and fretboard sanded/machined straight.

Might sound easy, but then comes truss rod, that (should) keep the neck straight under the tension of strings.

Just my two offtopic cents :poke:.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 12:25:44 AM »
I am now able to give a lot more details out on this build, but not all.

But a little note about the testing that has been going on. Since it has been built, and played almost every day since, three strings have broken, and in each case it was the end of the string around the ferrule untwisting itself, so that has been put down to string failure because of bad manufacture. It keeps perfect tune most time it is folded, and if one string does go out of tune, it is only by a minute amount, so it looks like the tuning system I used is working rather well. My man has now bought another guitar, exactly the same as the one I modified, and he states that the modified one sounds a lot more mellow and better than the original, most probably because the whole set up is a lot more rigid.

So I can now show roughly how I went about it.

The first thing that needed to go was the tuning mechanism, and was easily chopped off on the bandsaw. No turning back now.




After a little work on the mill, there was a wooden spigot left over that the new string holding head could be fitted.




You can see from this shot how the string is now held, back to front, the tuning will be done from the other end, to be shown in a later episode.




A little more decorative work was done on the head, and by use of pins and Loctite, brass side cheeks were fitted.




Once well bonded together, I could get on with blending and bling. The black inserts were made as a feature, but also to give a little more adhesion to strengthen things up. I could have made the inserts almost any colour, as all they are is a tiny drop of felt tip ink mixed in with the 24 hour epoxy to fill up the recess.

Also notice the screwed pin. This goes into a threaded hole in the LH brass face and goes thru all the string ferrules to eventually into a locating hole in the RH brass cheek. This is to stop the strings jumping out of position when the guitar is folded.

So that is the basic head finished.




Except for a little bling. Engine turning is a straightforward and easy process but does in fact serve two purposes. The first is that it looks good to the layman, and secondly, once it is done, even though it will tarnish, it doesn't show fingerprints as a polished surface does.




Mounted front, and the flash makes it look terrible. In normal lighting it looks perfectly smooth and highly polished.




Mounted back.




So that was the first part I made, next I will be showing how I got around the neck with it's folding problems.



Bogs
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Offline z3t4

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 08:15:34 AM »
Magnificent stuff, John. Thanks for sharing.

I'm sure you're aware, but for those that aren't the most well-known 'headless' guitars are made by Steinberger. Loads of stuff on't t'Interweb.
Did you put a relatively chunky bit at the head end to help the balance (having lost the machine heads there)? I tried a headless Steinberger a couple of times and it always felt really strange because the balance was all wrong.

Must go and look up 'engine 'turning'.

Regards,

John.




Offline Bernd

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 08:32:32 AM »
Bog's,

For a guy who doesn't like to work with wood you sure made that look very nice. The engine turning looks terrific.  :thumbup:

Bernd
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2011, 11:40:55 AM »
John,

I just made what was necessary to get the job done, making sure that everything was as rigid and protected as possible. I could have made the neck head a lot smaller, but it would have meant threading the strings rather than just sliding a pin and hooking the string in place, in other words, ease of use.

I'm no banjo player, so I don't know if it balanced up or not, but I have had no complaints about it so far.

Bernd,

In this situation, wood reacted exactly the same as metal when it was clamped to the mill. The main problem I did have was holding all the curvy bits rigid and square enough to make sure everything fitted together after machining. I managed to keep the wood within a max of a couple of thou of the machined metal parts.

BTW, I have just finished of a piece of the brown stuff for Stew, in his latest post, it doesn't look too bad seeing that I hate the stuff. Marvellous what you can do with a mill and flycutter.


John
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2011, 12:50:34 PM »
Saw the base already John. Nice by the way.

I'm sure it was a bear trying to hold the stuff in the vice. Still very nice job.

Bernd
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Offline saw

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2011, 04:44:13 PM »
It's nice built, but why change the guitar? Was it not good enough??  :doh:
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Offline mklotz

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2011, 05:06:48 PM »
Innovative, professional work as usual, John.  We expect that of you and you always deliver.

I'm very enthused about the idea of a folding electric guitar.  Being able to  compact them will make it so much easier to fit them into the dumpsters when the people who actually like music take over and eliminate rock 'music' from the face of the earth.
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Offline HS93

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2011, 05:18:01 PM »
It's nice built, but why change the guitar? Was it not good enough??  :doh:

are you deliberatley trying to be funny? read the sign on the door, it says MAD MODDERS, we would be running around in model T Fords still if we went by your way of thinking.

Peter
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2011, 06:04:46 PM »
It's nice built, but why change the guitar? Was it not good enough??  :doh:

Saw

I can see why you would ask this question. I can also see that you didn't bother to go back and read any of the earlier posts in this thread. If you would have than you would not have had to ask "why change the guitar" I could very well tell you why but I am not going to. If you are interested in learning why then go back and start reading this thread from the beginning. You won't have to read very far before you have your answer.   :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2011, 06:08:36 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everything else on this mod revolves around what I am about to do, that is the folding bit.

As mentioned by Spud when I first showed this build, this neck was held on with just four wood screws. If this project was going to be successful, ALL wood to wood joints needed to be got rid of and replaced with metal to metal joints, they would be a lot more stable.

I could have made a very complicated hinge system, but it was decided by my man that he would be much happier making it as simple as possible, so he bought me some screw in toggle clamps to play with.




So now started the exercise in making things strong enough. Wherever something needed to be screwed into the wood, I made inserts that were screwed and epoxied into the wood for the machine screws to be screwed into. A bit like the Helicoil system, but larger.




Once the glue had dried, the heads were very carefully machined off to exactly level with the wood face.




This is how the screws then fitted.




Rough first trial front




Rough first trial back




Now came the time to beef up the body mounting. Where the bolts went thru the body, and where the brass inserts sat against, ali top hat sections were epoxied into the body and machined flush. When the neck and body screw together, they are metal to metal contacts. Some locating spigots were also fitted in the body that also went into holes drilled in the neck. That ensured that the neck always went back in the same position, with no side to side play.




A large spreader plate was then made, to spread the load from the toggle clamps over a larger area, especially when the guitar is in playing mode, as shown in the last picture, where the load is spread over the back of the guitar.
The recesses in this plate are to take the shaped thrust washers that came with the screw toggle clamps. The plate also fits on the other side when the neck is folded.




The neck firmly clamped in position. It only takes about a minute to go from playing to folded.




Now that the guitar was rigid, it was time to see what could be done with the strings. It was now that things started to get very technical and critical.


Bogs


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Offline dsquire

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »
John

Very interesting and very nicely executed but then we would expect nothing less from you. Thanks again for taking us along for the ride.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2011, 06:17:52 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:


Bogs


Proves I have trained him well   :lol:

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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2011, 06:21:23 PM »
Thanks Don,

Up to this point, things were fairly straight forwards, just pure mechanics.

I hope next time you will see that the major part of this mod is getting the strings under control, and it caused me a lot of head scratching as I attempted to solve each problem as I hit it.


John,

I have no doubt that our US cousins cannot understand a lot of our very sarcastic humour. I just hope that they can pick some of it up, otherwise I can see it at some time causing major issues.




John


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Offline saw

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2011, 06:43:22 PM »
Sorry Don, I have read the story before, but I'll forgot... :doh:
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2011, 06:49:33 PM »
Sorry Don, I have read the story before, but I'll forgot... :doh:

Saw

Apology accepted. Thanks.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline mklotz

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2011, 07:06:28 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ah, yes, British humour.  It's almost as laughable as British cuisine.  (But what can one expect from a country whose only spice is water?)
Regards, Marv

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Offline HS93

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2011, 07:15:08 PM »
Nice one Marv, your humour is getting almost as good as us UK members.  :lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Ah, yes, British humour.  It's almost as laughable as British cuisine.  (But what can one expect from a country whose only spice is water?)

And almost as funny as American map reading.   




I rest my case :lol:

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Peter  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2011, 07:44:08 PM »
As long as it's not this water ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13874089

John S.
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2011, 08:02:32 PM »
I was doing this project 'on the fly', that is, modifying and making as I went along, solving problems as they reared their ugly heads.

So ignoring all the wiggly amp stuff, my man's problems, not mine. I just left the holes where his bits went alone, except for drilling a few necessary holes in the bottom of them so that I could epoxy in a few tophat sections with threads in, just so that I could tighten up any screws that I used.

So the head and neck was done, and the next area to be looked at was where the strings go thru the body.

The next place that the strings hit was the 'Whammy' or tremelo bar. This little piece of metal caused quite a bit of trouble, as it had a taper on the front, and slack screws, allowing it to wobble about. I needed it to be perfectly level and rigidly fixed.

So onto the grinder to have the taper taken off. I then epoxied a bit of brass plate onto where it had been ground.




That plate was then ground level with the rest.




After drilling the thru holes, it clamped solidly to the body.




There were all sorts of screws and plates that fixed onto the whammy bar that turned the strings thru 90 degrees, and kept the strings at the correct height to the frets, so they had to stay, but everything after that was mine, and even at this early stage, I was knocking up rough sketches, to remind me what was needed to keep total control of string tension.




I made a pair of these rollers, one to go on the underside of the whammy bar plate, the other to control the next right angle turn on the back of the body. I kept a standard string pitch from the neck head right thru to the final tensioning block of 10.5mm, and it worked out just right.




It was now time to start making room for my bits. That was done on the mill using razor sharp tungsten milling cutters running at 1200 rpm. I found that gave me a very nice finish on the brown stuff, and which I could easily keep tolerances of 0.002" (0.05mm) so that my metal bits would fit nicely.

A split vice was used to hold the main body, and great care was taken to keep the cutter away from the paper towels used for padding, to prevent damage to the soft brown stuff.




Holes were drilled and tapped using standard metric taps. These were to take the brass inserts that were to be epoxied into the holes.




Just like this.




And they gave a very rigid fixing for the bottom set of rollers.

This shot shows both sets of rollers in position, and the strings, once threaded, have been sent back in the direction they once came.




This bit took a great amount of brainpower to figure out, the strings needed to be held very tight (no slippage), plus the holding block needed to end up at a metal to metal contact point, so that when the strings had their tension released for folding, afterwards, they would be pulled back into exactly the same position and so tension.

The brass clamping blocks were so designed to hold the strings very tight, but without causing damage. On replacing a string, the sliding block is put into a certain position using a setting block, and the string pulled tight before clamping. This worked very well indeed, and required very little tuning afterwards.
As you can see, this lot isn't quite finished.




The finger tensioning screw was made with a 90 degree inclusive taper on the end. This taper fitted into a matching taper in the sliding block. As it is tightened, the sliding block is not only brought into metal to metal contact, but because of the two matching tapers, into exactly the same position every time.




Once again, screwed inserts were used to give a firm anchor point. The two lower ones have yet to be fitted.




This is the finished string tensioner. All that needs to be done is the screw is fully undone and swung up out of the way. That allows the main block to slide backwards towards the rollers, and thus giving enough slack for the neck to be folded.
The reverse operation brings all strings back into nice tension.




The next time, I will be showing how the strings are tuned.


Bogs
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Offline Dean W

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2011, 08:49:44 PM »
It's fascinating, John.  Quite a complicated setup to have figured out as you go.  You must have been
thinking a fair bit ahead of the game for it to come out so well.  Very interesting to see how you did
things, after showing us the finished item first!
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2011, 12:13:30 AM »
Luckily Dean, like everything I do, I take lots of pictures. So no matter how long it is since I did the job, they remind me exactly how I did it.

I actually had everything worked out before I took the first cut. But very little of what I had sketched up was used, so I ended up winging it as I went along. In fact there was no way my original sketched pieces would have fit into the small space I eventually had to work with.


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Offline metalmad

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2011, 03:51:39 AM »
Hi Bogs
 Im looking forward to seeing how u solved the Tuning issue.
Great post  :clap: :clap:
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Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2011, 08:43:07 AM »
Very very awesome guitar. Extremely complex, yet very logical as it unfolds. No Pun Intended.

Awesome as usual John!
SPiN Racing

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2011, 04:05:12 PM »
Thanks for the comments everyone, it is much appreciated.

Now onto the final part of the project, and the bit that caused me the most head scratching. I had to replicate what the tuning knobs did on the original, but in a different way, plus it had to be bomb proof and keep exact tune, a thing the original tuning method couldn't do after the guitar was folded.

But first, I would like to show you one of my ideas that didn't make it from the sketch pad. This is the first idea that I came up with, instead of the final part that I showed last time. in fact there were a couple of others after this one that were also consigned to the 'has been' bin. By doing little C-o-C's like this, sitting down and looking at it for an hour or so, you can easily see the stumbling blocks that will crop up.

This one was rejected because it would not give enough slack on the strings to allow the detached neck to be repositioned, plus it would also foul the tuning method that already had a rough sketch done of it.




I started off with about the smallest size that I thought the tuning method could be squeezed into. I had already cut the six grooves at my 10.5mm pitch. I would be using the straight length of string between the two change of direction rollers that I showed last time, to carry out the tuning on, by pressing on the individual strings with bronze fingers.




So, now it was time to squeeze what I wanted into the overall size. I knew that I might need a fair amount of forwards movement to get the string tuned, plus I also knew the max I could have it move forwards, so I made the close tolerance fingers next, out of aluminium bronze with a very fine (56 tpi) left hand thread cut well down into the end of them. It required the left hand thread to give an instinctive movement of the tuning knobs. Turn the knob clockwise, and the finger would put more pressure on the string. I made a couple of spares at the same time.




Stainless rods were then single point threaded to give a very smooth and slop free fit into the fingers. You can't afford any sort of binding on something like this, it has to be smooth as silk otherwise the tuning might suffer.




An exercise was then carried out to lighten the main block as much as possible, but still retain enough support for the critical parts.




A lot more work was done on this tuning mechanism to get it to this stage from the last picture, and I don't want to show some of it, as that part could be a trade secret that I want to protect at this time.

I will just say one thing, this unit gave a very smooth operation with not one sign of backlash or undoing, that could cause problems by losing tune as the guitar was being played.




It was now time to get things into position in the body.




So back onto the mill. This is the roughing out.




Followed by a precision bit of machining, at least as best as the material would allow.




It fitted perfectly into the correct position.




Just a bit more machining, to allow room for fingers to get into the tuning knobs.




Looking good. Plenty of room, even for my gorilla sized fingers, and when viewed from the front, the tuning knobs cannot be seen.



So basically, except for a couple of fine tuning mods that I am keeping deathly quiet about, and having all of 'my man's' bits refitted, that is the finished project as you see in the first picture of this post.

I did need to keep a few things from your eyes, it was a stipulation that was given to me so that I could show you this project, and I hope it didn't spoil your enjoyment too much about how I went about it, and some of the stumbling blocks I faced along the way.

You wouldn't believe how much enjoyment I got from this project, even though I cursed it at times, as it was being done at a bad stage of my wife's and mine lives. But I must admit, there was never any pressure from my man, 'just do it when you feel like it' was what he used to say, so I did.

But it does prove, even though I hate working with the brown stuff, and can't play a single note of music, it didn't stop me from having a go and succeeding.

I hope it gives yourselves enough of a confidence boost to have a go at something you don't thoroughly understand. You never know, you might enjoy it.


Bogs
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Offline mike os

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2011, 04:16:12 PM »
wow... what can be said Bogs? cracking piece of work, some very inovative thinking and looks very smart too.

Thanks for sharing :D
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Offline jcs0001

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2011, 05:23:48 PM »
Bogs:

I really enjoyed your description of this project - fantastic.  I know that acoustic guitar players are always concerned about travel because often their instruments get damaged.  They are even more delicate because of the hollow bodies.  I suspect that there will be a good market for this travel guitar - a lot of players are willing to pay well for a solution to their problems.

Maybe you can put your talents to an acoustic (classical) version!! :palm:

Thanks,

John.

Offline DaveH

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2011, 07:01:41 PM »
John,

Great post. :clap:

Masterly and beautifully done. :clap:

Turned out to be a work of art. :clap:

 :beer:

Daveh
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Offline BillTodd

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2011, 08:59:29 AM »
Superb job John  :clap: :clap:

I hope you are going to make a video of it folding for us :)

Bill
Bill

Offline DaveH

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2011, 09:43:33 AM »
I hope you are going to make a video of it folding for us :)  Bill 

Nah - I want to see a video of John, playing it and singing with Bandit supplying the accompaniment. :D :D :D

 :beer:

DaveH
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Offline HS93

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2011, 10:18:43 AM »
I think I would rather have bandit singing....

Peter
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Folding Electric Guitar
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2011, 10:20:48 AM »
I will have rather a lot of difficulty doing any of what you ask.

The banjo is now no longer in my hands, and it spends most of it's time on the continent. I told you that it is a guitar for travelling about with.


Like everything else, once a project is completed, I have to let go and forget it, and get on with the next one.

I now have another on the sidelines, to do with Canon lenses. After many many months, I now have all the info that is required for me to start.

But I have no idea when that will be, as the grandson and myself started to rip apart certain areas of my workshop today, and by the way it is going, it could be weeks before anything else can be done.




John
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