Author Topic: Engine boring bar  (Read 10093 times)

MrFluffy

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Engine boring bar
« on: January 15, 2011, 05:47:31 PM »
This boring bar has recently followed me home. And Ive sort of worked out how most of the bits n bobs work, the centre finder and someone has helpfully put a note in to say the setting mic under reads by 0.0001. But there are still some things which puzzle me. Im expecting they wont puzzle someone out there though and Im hoping I might find someone who knows this particular make.
Heres the bar, its a very old kb hydraulic boring bar, and it seems ok on first inspection apart from having low fluid levels, but the packaging was coated in the stuff so I assume it came out in transit lying horizontally. Would this use normal hydraulic oil, and if so what grade? I have some 55w I keep for the jcb but not sure if that will be too thick or not.


In this picture, on the top left is some solid square bars with a single hole in the centre. I have no idea what they are for, anyone have any ideas?
Also at the bottom of the picture there is a diamond face dresser wheel, which there is no arbor suitable for it, but appears to be the same diameter as the boring bar main piston, but its a facing wheel? inside the box is some spare seals so I suspect its designed to dress up the piston bore from damage somehow but I am confused as I would have expected to find a bore dressing stone rather than face.
And that hardened steel button bottom centre is another mystery, which has been carefully stowed in a box so it must have some function. Finally in the lower right compartment is a casting with 3 holes at odd angles, marked 1, 2 and 3.



Finally in the bottom of the box, rattling round with that file and other bits n bobs are these half rings. There are four halves in total making two pairs of different heights. Are they to clamp around the outside of the lower section of a barrel if it protrudes so the bore can be bored from below?


Hoping someone has some ideas and can help!

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 08:39:49 PM »
I have no idea  :scratch:

Looks neat though. I hope someone here knows what it is about.

Eric
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MrFluffy

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2011, 09:22:16 AM »
Im sure someone will. Someone has told me elsewhere the hydraulic feed model was a special to rebore aero engines in place, but from looking at adverts back in the period burtonwood aero engineers went on to become burtonwood aero and motor engineers and the KB series was sold in quantity to the engine refinishing trade.
I think I have enough information to use it now, but I would like to avoid doing things the hard way for want of being thickheaded and not asking about first.

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2011, 10:48:55 AM »
When you get it going, show us some vids or pics so we can see.

Eric
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We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 08:55:44 AM »
Hi Mr. Fluffy, I will try to help out as much as I can, I've got an old Storm boring bar, motor driven, not hydraulic, but the main difference should only be the feed.  That block with three different angles is most likely for holding the cutter, which is probably supposed to be a bit of carbide brazed to a round bit of tool steel, probably with a flat to establish a fixed placement in each hole, to get three cuts leaving a designed in cutting angle and center for repeatability when boring.  From the looks of it, your machine was intended for radial cylinders with the half rounds to provide spacing as "parallels", from the bottom of the cylinder flange.  The diamond wheel should go on the non-drive end of the motor turning the spindle, and there should be a post for the three holes in the casting to slip on, so you get three different angles on the cutter installed in a cutter holder, which would probably be your steel bars with holes in the center.  If they are, there should be a place in the funny casting that they fit into rather specifically, and repeatably.
    My machine is made for boring in regular engine blocks, sitting on top, and boring each hole in turn, using a scroll and three jaws which come out, to center the bar over the cylinder to be bored.  Most radial engine cylinders are mounted to heads one time and remain with the head to the end.  I suspect that hardened center is a means of centering the boring bar relative to the center of the head, if you don't have jaws or legs which can be scrolled out to center on the bore its self.  I have almost no information about my boring bar, it was given to me after some dissassembly, and most of the removed parts arrived one at a time later, so I've worked on it since I've got it, and made parts along the way.  I made a holder for triangular inserts, and got it working, but the cutting angle was wrong and I got lots of chatter.  I've made different tool holders, but all have had their problems.  I've never used the diamond lapping wheel since the very beginning, I had two tools in holders, both which has a round cutter bar with a top flat for a set screw, held into rectangular blocks with a ball detent pop in place, and repeatable accuracy, but had only a tiny bit of carbide left on the tip of each tool.  I believe I will be brazing carbide bits onto some new holders, and getting some diamond lapping compound in oil, as I know from experience, a boring bar with its cutter in exactly the right place, ground/lapped to the three specific relief angles, cuts cleanly, reliably, and on size, and while I've tried to duplicate the angles of incident with my tool blocks made for indexable bits, I have failed to get it exactly right, and don't get decent cutter life.  Since the machine was made in 1937, found that etched on a Timken bearing when I rebuilt the bar, and it had two cutters in holders with it, and the original sample bottle of diamond lapping oil, I suspect it lasted all its previous cutting  life with just the two cutters, lapped each bore so they never got dull, and it was set aside when the cutters got small, parts no longer available, and a new one brought in.  I suspect I will get better results with brazed bits matching the originals, and using the odd castings for the proper cutting angles on the carbide, as it was in full use for about fifty years before it was set aside.
   I would try to find a way to mount the diamond wheel on the drive motor end which spins the bar through gearing, and see if the blocks with holes fit and clamp into the funny shaped casting with the odd holes, and then the casting with the block, fitting over a fixed post on the motor drive unit which should be somewhere next to the end of the motor drive shaft.  My boring bar is all mechanical drive, because it is to set on the block of the engine being bored, but to bore in situ in a radial engine, it would take a hydraulic feed and odd set up to make it feed evenly, and accurately while at odd and different angles.  If the cylinder to be bored were hanging beneath the boring bar, the cutter holder should fit in a solid mount in the boring head, the cutter holder bar with the carbide tip should stick out and be setable with the micrometer setting devise, the carbide tip should be essentially parallel to the axis of the boring bar, and the casting, if it is to hold cutter holders for lapping, should slip on a post which would give you a lap for back clearance on the leading cutting edge, side clearance to clear the tangent of the bore, and face lapping to sharpen the cutter hence three funny angled holes.  My machine has two different castings with slightly different angles, I suspect for different bores, as it has a wide range, but possibly for different material, as iron is cut with far different angles than heat treated steel, which most aircraft engines use for cylinders.  I thought I had a diamond lapping wheel on my machine, but time and experience showed it is a cast iron wheel, used with diamond paste, for lapping, as it quit cutting as I scraped the last of the lapping compound out with a tooth pick, right before I went to my own made holders and still don't equal the quality of cut I got originally, with the lapped cutters, but now are absent any discernable carbide left.  I hope this helps out your figuring out your machine, I took a long time getting mine going, but it's cut enough cylinders since then to make rebuilding the machine entirely worthwhile.  Mad Jack

MrFluffy

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 03:33:25 PM »
Thanks jack, thats set my mind a thinking quite a lot and very helpful.
Ive had a little more of a play since, puzzling over the parts and actually got it running though not cutting a cylinder. The downfeed is totally automatic. I have no idea how to set it if a different feed is desired. The spring loaded pump is only for raising the bar back up after the cut.
It runs smoothly and quietly after a session with the grease gun on the nipples etc.

The bar does have a centre finding mechanism, you take one of the semi square plates, insert 3 of the sized "setting pins" into it, then cover the bottom of the bar shaft with a cap which has a tapered centre on it. place the plate with pins inside the bore then lower the bar, and the tapered section acts on the setting pins equally and nudges the bar central to the original bore.
The cutter holders appear to be square in form but separate to the unknown square sections, with replaceable inserts, there is a nick in the bar into which a V shaped tool is placed to lock the position, and this holds the insert next to the setting micrometer in a repeatable way. Theres two of them, I guess to cover the wide range of bores capable.
There are a few inserts in one of the cardboard boxes unused and a receipt from a shop for last time some were purchased.

For the odd 3 holes bracket. I think you have something there, the clamp section of it appears to fit the bars either side of the drive head, although I am still at a loss to see how the lapping stone itself mounts. I have however taken a better look at some of the studs in the bottom case and what I thought was for mounting the bar actually fits rather snugly into the holes in the strange bracket. And if one inspects the bar, its possible to see some galling on it which lines up with a contra drilling in the bracket. Ill try to puzzle it out a bit more and take some better pictures now its here.

I have it set up on a old headless drill press stand for now. Im considering turning this into a boring table longer term and working out the hows. Please forgive the chaos in my workshop, Im laying a floor in the machine room bit and everything is in chaos here...


Even more chaotic, a heenan and froud water brake has just followed me home too :)



Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 10:09:15 AM »
Hi Mr. Fluffy, funny how things tend to follow certain people home :lol:, that's how I came by my boring bar.  I hope you find the motor shaft the lapping plate goes on, and the nearby shaft the casting slides on, I found mine by accident, looking at the odds and ends.  As it happens, my bar has a set up with a scroll, and supposed to have three bars which scroll out like a three jaw, to center it over the old bore, but the three bars are missing, so I've been using a tool holder with a piece of hardened drill rod in the tool hole, and incrementally moving it out while rotating the head by hand to center, and thinking of ways to make three bars to match the scroll.  No luck on matching the scroll ideas, but the set up you describe, with the plate, three rods or bars, and a cone, could be my answer, as the cutting head has a central hole for locating the micrometer tool setting fixture in place.  It takes me about five minutes to center a cylinder perfectly, while with the original method, it's centered in thirty seconds or so.  I used to bore cylinders almost every day, now it's a couple a month in the summer, so not so critical.  Good luck with your machine, you should have an empty motor spindle a few inches away from a post, well set solid in the casting, that the odd casting slips on easily in at least three different directions.  That's how my lap is mounted, and most of those I've seen in other machines. :beer:  cheers, mad jack

Offline Pete.

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 11:00:59 AM »
Quote
Even more chaotic, a heenan and froud water brake has just followed me home too

I know what you want that for :)

I live in town, so I couldn't use it - but I'm still jealous :D

MrFluffy

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 06:52:59 AM »
Jack, Ill get some better pictures of the centre-ing mechanism if that helps you at all. Theres various different setting pins for different ranges and as far as I can see, the only requirements are they slide nicely in the plate and are the same length as their matching neighbors. Its not on a scroll like mechanism, the taper on the bar mounted section forces each pin outwards equally until they block. If one pin hits first, the weight of the bar jiggles it sideways until the other two contact too, so the weight of the bar is the force which centres it, not a scroll expanding it outwards.
I havent had much time to revisit last week, traveling for work, which involves airplanes and hire cars and hotels :(
But thats all done and dusted for a while now...

Pete, you know it, it can measure up to 1000hp so should comfortably deal with even my v8 car project stuff. Ive got a old self propelled pedestrian road roller which the transmission let go on and wasn't economic to repair, so that yields a large diameter steel drum with a 80mm axle and bearings to match, a gearbox, starter mechanism for the drum, and a drum frame. If I connect that lot up to the input of the water brake, I have a in chassis dyno too, with the option to run a motor into the dyno direct for a mini dyno cell. Then all I have to do is build a soundproof dyno room as part of the workshop barn as we now have some neighbors to consider, but only two, work a way out how to knurl the drum for traction and itll be a go-er :)
Theres also loads of options to bring the Heenan water brakes up to date with modern electronics to do the datalogging etc once my funds/relationship with my wife recovers   :thumbup:

MrFluffy

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 12:22:30 PM »
Hope these help in some way jack, although Im sure you have the idea of it in operation already.
First the taper pin mounted on the bar end. This is a precision fit onto the bar and stays in place with stiction alone.


The centre plate from the topside. You can see the 3 pins that slide smoothly in it.


Finally the assembly together held in place, normally I think you'd leave the plate in the cylinder to be bored and lower the bar to it. I wouldnt drop the whole weight of the bar onto it of course, just gentle pressure to bump it in.
Each pin set covers a smaller range, and you use alternative pin sets to cover the whole range of the bar.


Thats all Ive had time to take of late, excavating workshop still...




MrFluffy

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2011, 02:20:13 PM »
No more bar tinker time, but a big truck carrying this turned up as per earlier in thread...
Lovely, but a bit heavy to roll round with a pinch bar, cue farmer neighbor with merlo telehandler :)



Extra nice for being made of proper components...


Now just have to build a quiet room, excavate a sump for it to sit in, another for a 1000l water talk for cooling, build a frame to spin the road roller and connect it to the input shaft, make some arduino based sensor data loggers and Ill be in dyno heaven.

MrFluffy

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Re: Engine boring bar
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2011, 05:48:09 PM »
Brain started tonight after posting the above it seems and I finally understood what you meant about the lap.
It mounts onto the end of the motor itself, and there is a stud coming up from the motor that the bracket slides onto, and the cutter itself is clamped by the clamp on the bracket. I had it completely wrong trying to hook it onto the sliding arms.
The lap is secured to the motor spindle by a crossways allen bolt, which the side of the motor spindle has a hole drilled into it to accept. Then the bracket in each position exactly generates a cutter surface at the right angle. Thanks  :thumbup:

Ill take a photo when I have it ready for cutter lapping. For now I have to make a extractor to pull the blank cap off the end of the motor shaft as its been sitting on there for quite some years and is quite stuck. And I need some compound which I need to research first.