Author Topic: building a new flame sucker  (Read 45259 times)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2011, 10:35:52 AM »
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Congratualtions Jack you should be rightly pround of your work.

Can't wait to see a vid

Well Done

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2011, 10:56:32 AM »
Well, folks, here goes:



The odd ball flame sucker, almost all spare parts from the scrap heap, with the iron and the screws as the only "bought" parts.  Some parts flew in Marine Helicopters, some ran in lawn tractors, and some came out of boxes in yard sales - recycling at its most efficient :lol: :ddb: :nrocks: mad jack, ready for the noon day sun :headbang:

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2011, 11:11:18 AM »
Hi all, I reckon I'm going to have to figure out how to post videos on this site, a click on the picture takes you to my photobucket, and it runs there, but I thought it would be a running video here by using photobucket.  Note, the fire is from my Duclos flame sucker, which runs well now, and this engine needs a lower flame, due to the placement of the port, and I've made some cam timing adjustments, advancing it, and it is running about three times as fast, but catching the wick of the burner, so I definitely will have a new burner, fit to the brown stuff, and matched to the port for maximum effect.  Any aid in getting a video actually posted here would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks to all for comments and suggestions, Nick thanks for getting your "poppin" going, and getting me in that direction for the valve train, making all the difference.  I'll do some more to finish it up and fettle it up a bit, and hopefully post a better video tomorrow.  I've enjoyed having you all over to my shop these last days, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, like I've got friends  :lol: imagine, a Marine with friends  :poke: kind of like a Sailor without a potty mouth.

Rob.Wilson

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2011, 11:14:34 AM »
 :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: thats great Jack  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:


Rob

Offline sbwhart

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2011, 11:16:13 AM »
Great work Jack  :clap: :clap: :clap:

 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


 :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks:


 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

 Well done that man.

Now all you have to do is catch the Duck

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline jim

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2011, 11:51:30 AM »
excellent!!
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline NickG

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2011, 12:07:01 PM »
 :D  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:  :nrocks:

Well done Jack, massive achievement designing and getting to work your own flame sucker.

Can't wait to see the video!

Oh, I missed page 6!!! Absolutely brilliant, the feeling is immense!

Photobucket seems to do that - so I have started using u tube for my vids so it embeds them, not sure whether you can or how to do it with photobucket.

Nick  :bow: :thumbup:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2011, 12:10:10 PM »
My two year old thought it sounded like a duck as well!  :lol: Mine was a little like that but it's gradually bent the valve, I think it's the very thin valve causing the sound or air being sucked past the thin valve!

Superb, runs really nice and slow so you can see what's happening too. I like that about the Jan ridders one, the poppin just has a mind of it's own and accelerates until it gets valve bounce sometimes!

Well done again, love it!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline BillTodd

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2011, 02:43:54 PM »
Just love the sound of that  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Great job :)

Bill
Bill

Offline foozer

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2011, 04:03:57 PM »
Looks nice, does have that Duck Toot sound, made the ol dog perk an ear up.

I like it

Robert
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Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2011, 04:18:43 PM »
Well done Mad Jack :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Knew you would get it !!!!

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Offline Mad_Grasshopper

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2011, 05:30:19 PM »
 :nrocks:

I love it!

Offline winklmj

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2011, 06:44:27 PM »
Oh my...what a "unique" sounding engine you have there. What kind of "gas" does it run on?  :lol:

Love it. Great work...especially a design all your own. Congrats!
Mike

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2011, 12:45:11 PM »
    Love it!   Love it!   Love it!   Love it!   Love it!

Jack...... What a great success that engine is! "Correct" revs, and unique sound!  :clap:

I've been a little quiet recently. But that's put a big grin on my face. Can't imagine what it's done to yours!  :D

Blummin well done mate!  :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline arnoldb

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2011, 01:38:52 PM »
 :D :D Great stuff Jack - Well Done!  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

:lol: I'll be having a repeat of the sound from now on; the parrot was sitting on my shoulder when I watched the video...

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline Chuck in E. TN

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2011, 03:51:13 PM »
Glad to see the video. Spent the afternoon re-reading the entire thread. Great job, Jack!

Chuck in E. TN
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2011, 04:36:17 PM »
Absolutely a great runner Jack. :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

You should bottle that sound and sell it, you would make a fortune from duck hunters.


John
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Offline cidrontmg

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #92 on: January 30, 2011, 10:47:45 AM »
Hi Jack, sorry for not having posted anything in a while, RL tends to interfere with hobbies sometimes. That sure is a nice engine! It sounds more alive than anything I've witnessed so far. "Alive" meaning ducks or geese  :lol:
We have some ducks and geese here, loitering around, and making a hideous mess. And 6 dogs that mostly get along just fine with them (the do steal an occasional egg, and the geese are furious). My German shepherd was listening to your engine, head tilted, and obviously trying to figure out where the goose was hiding itself...
The engine seems to make some 100-120 rpm, and it sounds like it will do that "forever". Or at least as long as there is a flame to feed it. There´s metal enough at the cold end to keep it cool enough. That's a sound design, and proper materials everywhere. Now you have a Duck-less (Duclos) and a Duck engine...  :clap:
 :beer:   :wave:
Olli
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2011, 10:46:55 AM »
Hi Olli, all, well, getting it running was first, but it needed its own burner, to keep the wick out of the valve reed, so I took an extra bezel from a door lock, set it on fire to burn off all the laquer which was coating it, having saved it for just such an occasion, as I can't throw away bits of brass or anything which looks like it could be built into something, scrubbed off the burnt laquer and with a piece of kick plate from an old front door, made a round disc for a bottom, cleaned everything up well, painted it with Nocorrode soldering flux, got out my Sn63/37 Eutectic solder, heated the plate with a very small torch, and soldered the plate in place



I mention the solder because it is designed for perfect solder joints in high tech electronics, and it is the easiest alloy to use for soft soldering, as it melts at a low temperature, and flows like water, when everything is clean and well fluxed.  It's more expensive than plumbing solder, because of the higher tin content, but well worth the difference because it behaves so well.



this is a top view, I also drilled a hole in the side, close up to the top, and inserted a piece of brass tube to hold the wick at the right height, and since the top is recessed, with a lip inside, I took another piece of kickplate brass, about .030 thick, cut a circle which would drop in the recess and sit on the lip, drilled a .062 hole in it, and soldered in a short piece of tubing in to act as both a vent and something to grip to remove the lid, with it just setting in place.

I'm trying to down load a new video which shows the engine running after getting warmed up.  I put a piece of reflective tape on the flywheel so my lazer tach reads, and it runs about 275 rpm while warming up and quacking, but once it is warm, it goes up as high as 670 rpm, and sounds like the clatter of a loose engine, as the valve plate springs open and closed, with the vacuum determining the time of valve opening, letting the valve gear loose all at once, each cycle.  It doesn't much quack once it gets going, I believe that is the valve reed quacking as the excess air is pushed past it, like a musical reed, while it is cold enough to hold in place and fully follow the cam with the moisture generated sealing the reed tightly forcing the engine to forcibly pull the valve loose, and produce the duck I can't find.
     I started it with the cam where it seemed it ought to go, but once it was warmed, it needed much more advance, and now is hard starting, cold, but runs much stronger and faster once warmed up.  I started with a .004 brass feeler gauge reed which made for easy starts, because of a great seal, even cold, but ended up flapping like a piece of paper when the engine was hot, and grabbing the wick of the burner and pulling it in closer to the engine, and blocking the port closing.  I now have a .006 inch steel feeler gauge valve which is a bit stiffer, harder to start, but will hold up better when hot.
     The use of "the poppin'" valve set up is what allowed me to get this engine to run, along with moving the mount behind the cylinder, and changing the dynamics of the heat.  The head and cylinder will get quite hot while running, but it will run nicely for ten or fifteen minutes or more but ending up needing cleaning out of residue left from burning oil and moisture, a quick spray of WD-40 washes it all out, and wipes off the goo.  The crank standard, aluminum and mounted to the cylinder rear also gets quite hot, and the stainless steel mount plate, inserted between standard and cylinder, isolates the heat from the aluminum side plates which hold up the engine, something that would be better in aluminum to provide better cooling.  With a stainless steel plate behind the head, I suspect the engine would have run in that set up, but the aluminum mount I had transferred the heat from the head and cylinder too fast I believe.
     All in all, a very satisfying project as a first engine of my own design and I've learned a lot about the cams, advance, and other aspects of these small atmospheric engines, and will be building more with the knowledge gained here.

http://s894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/?action=view&current=_0005-15.mp4

Here's a thirty second clip of it running at temperature with its very own burner.

Offline NickG

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2011, 04:43:45 AM »
Brilliant Madjack. Running superbly there.  My thinnest feeler gauge was 0.05 I think so it was probably by luck that I've been forced into using that. I can imagine 0.002" as called for on the drawing for poppin being way too thin!

Just out of interest, do your burners get hot?

After about 15 mins of mine being lit I touched it and though crikey that's hot - I could touch it so am guessing it was about 60 Deg C? But safety wise, is that acceptable - it's not likely to cause the alcohol to flash off at that point is it? It certainly evaporates off, if you leave any in you can forget about any being there the next time you try to run it!

Have I done something wrong in the design of mine? Should I knife edge the tube or something or get a thinner tube?

Well done again, it's often difficult enough to get these to run to a tried and tested design, let alone your own design.

Nick


Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #95 on: February 01, 2011, 11:23:30 AM »
Hi Nick, Olli, John and all, I expect this will close out this project, it is complete, it runs, and while it may get a bit of "fettling up" as you Brits say, I don't see major changes.



Here's a picture of the finished burner, Nick it does get quite warm after a long run, and I have lifted the lid and had a flame pop up, but it went out when I dropped the top plate.  Not enough wick sticking out will keep the flame close to the tube, but most of the heat is probably reflected from the engine.



Here's a picture of the engine running, close up on the valve gear



another shot of the valve gear and the engine running



and another video of the engine running at speed.

I guess you have to click on the picture to see it run, it's running about 370 rpm, it's normal regular speed, I've replaced the brass reed with a six thousandths steel reed, and in testing the cam timing, gotten it up to about 760 rpm, with the reed flapping like a flag in the breeze, catching the wick and pulling the burner into the engine, and ultimately pulling a dent in the reed valve from vacuum, while running with the reed in the full heat of the flame and soft.  Ultimately, I want to put a butane burner for this, so it is easily adjustable for speed, and maybe a small generator to put a load on it, so I can run it hard without getting the mad velocity which lets the parts get out of control and self destruct.  This has been a very interesting and profitable learning project, and I hope all of you enjoyed watching as much as I enjoyed doing.  Much thanks for the constant input of ideas and suggestions, there is always more to learn, and the wide variety from where we all arrive makes for many different ideas.  :mmr: :nrocks: :beer: :lol: thanks for all this forum offers, mad jack

Offline ieezitin

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2011, 11:33:55 AM »
Jack the mad one!

I have been following your thread from start to finish, a very good job well done sir!.

I enjoy your threads as you have a very unique way of solving problems and I have learned a lot from you. I wish you well on the next adventure and be sure I will be an ardent follower.

All the best.                  Anthony.
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2011, 12:17:37 PM »
Thanks much, Anthony, I can't say how much I learn reading through everyone else's logs.  No truth to the idea you can't teach old dogs new tricks, I learn something new every day, or else I just cancel that day and pretend it didn't happen.  Nick, with regard to your poppin, I suspect if you look, you will find the vacuum of your engine has pulled a dimple in the valve, I've pulled a brass .006 in valve to where it won't go flat, pulled a dimple in each of a .005, a .006 steel feeler gauge valve, and am finding I've only begun to tap the speed and power this design is capable of, having pulled apart the soldered together valve linkage, stripped the threads for the valve rod, out of the rocker arm, and am finding an .008 piece of gauge is going above seven hundred before it has time to even get warm.  This engine has been a test bed far more than I intended, and is not gone away as a present as it was supposed to because of lessons both positive and negative, learned.  I expect I will be posting on new valve train soon, as soldered together brass doesn't seem up to the high speed load of inertia.  I'm trying to get a 51 harley out of the shop while getting this settled out, and both are challenging my attempts to be finished.  I highly recomend anyone interested in flame suckers to go at it with a passion, and try anything that comes to mind and seems to make sense, after you've got the first one running, as they have far more potential than first appears.  They are the direct predecessors of internal combustion engines, but there is much more to them than the simplest designs suggest. :ddb: :nrocks: mad jack

Offline NickG

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2011, 03:44:34 AM »
Madjack,

Thanks for the analysis on the valves - I will have to take mine off (think it's 0.005") to have a look and see if there's a dimple-  I have noticed that it seems sort of softer and a different noise to when I first assembled it. I still need to increase my spring pressure I think as if I put the flame in the position for most power it revs too high and gets valve bounce-  it's not nice displaying it running like that anyway though! I might take that valve off over the weekend and maybe try some 0.008 then. I did wonder when I saw the drawings why they wanted the valve to be so thin - I can understand it seals better but it wouldn't last long at 0.002".

Love the motion pics - very nice.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a new flame sucker
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2011, 11:44:16 AM »
Thanks Nick, by the way, I'm using a piece of .008 right now and the engine easily goes into over-drive once warmed up and will reach a point where the vacuum holds the valve shut, and the engine will reverse and run four or five cycles backwards, till the valve pulls loose, and then start running forwards again until it does the same thing.  I've got my cam down to about 95 degrees so vacuum holds the valve shut for the last eight or ten degrees of running, during normal speeds, and the flame I'm using is not much larger than that on the Duclos flamesucker, but it is enough to run the engine to its limit.  I found if I spray it all over with WD-40 and spray some in the cylinder, flipping the flywheel to work it through the cylinder, it cleans out residue very well, cools off the very hot cylinder fins and head, and the next day the left over vapors make it start right up, as they eliminate the water vapor being condensed right off the bat.  I think my head being almost a quarter inch thick makes it a cold starter, and thinning it would make it much easier to start.  It should be the sixteenth the poppin' calls for probably.  Having the stroke twice the bore makes for lots of vacuum, when its warmed up, but reduces the speed it naturally runs at I expect.  It's .750 bore and inch and a half stroke, I think the next flame sucker I build will be much closer to "square", but I make such decisions in my sleep, going to bed with an idea, and waking up with a completely different take on it. :nrocks:  :beer: cheers, mad jack