Heron's Aeolipile

[Divided he ad]

I'll get some more copper sheet in the 0.5 variety but 4x4 size and will try it Peter.

I've no issues with trying other things, I've just got to think of them first.... That's why I have you guys... To keep reminding me of the bits I could be doing wrong!! 

I'm quite happy with the tests, they showed me a lot of the things that are not quite right 

It's all a big learning curve 


Glad you like it so far 



Ralph.

[Brass_Machine]

Very cool. Glad to see you making headway on this project. One of my favorites.

Eric

[bogstandard]

Nice jet Ralph.

I thought I gave you a d-bit to form the hole, maybe I forgot to find one for you.

But anyway, really enjoying the post, especially the trial and errors, plus failures, rather than just the successes.


Bogs

[Divided he ad]

I thought I had a D bit too John?? I looked for 10 min's I thought I had it with the pipe... But alas I think it was scared of the stainless?


There are always bound to be failures... I know for instance that the prototype is not going to spin too evenly, it seems a bit out of balance.... No worries though. That's why it's a prototype!

I've already started on the cures to the faults that I'm finding, they will all be posted at such a time as they are used to make a final part.... Hopefully not too long if it all works with the larger materials etc?

Next time I'm in there I'll be concentraing on a different project or two. To give myself a little break from this.... I've also got to make a pipe former for the bends in the jets too, I'm looking for repeatability here.... So that could be interesting! (I've got some plans on my 'puter somewhere!)


I did say early in this project that it was all experimental (emphisis on the 'mental' !! ) and would take some time.... I wasn't expecting this long... But I'm enjoying it all the same 

So don't worry, it will be done... Just a little slower than some of you make stuff!

I just like to amble along trying to let it all sink in...  It wouldn't be half as much fun if I felt pressurised into finishing it




Ralph.

[sbwhart]

Nice on Ralph

Your nearly there with the dome forming. The splitting of the thin copper is because your asking it to do too much, a couple of pre forms may help, but forming thin sheet can be more dificult, you may be better sticking with the thicker stuff. 

Have you thought about having another go with the brass now that you've deepend the die you may get a more complete ball.


Have

Fun

Ste

[bogstandard]

Ralph,

You had no need to use stainless, mild steel would have been just fine. Stainless is one of those materials that can scare the life out of a lot of tooling.

Don't worry about the bending of copper tube bit, once it is annealed, a 3" or 4" square of 1/4" thick plywood or hardwood will have you easily making repeatable bends, as many as you want to make. When you get to that stage, just ask.

John

[Darren]

Great work there Ralph,

Now what you didn't let us in on was how you lined up those four pins for drilling 
I would liked to have seen that....no worries if it's now too late...

With SS you need to keep the speed low for such tool abuse, well, that's what I've found anyways.
Only when you threaten it with carbide can you really scare it into submission....

[Divided he ad]

Ply wood ehh John, I'm intrigued.... Does it involve the vice?

I used the stainless because I had it in a suitable size... No real need I know, but it worked


Darren, When you say slow are we talking less than the 1800Rpm I was running at!!??  The 1st tool was suspect as a carbide bit... But the one in the pic was the real deal.... It didn't even think of going blunt... As I said I kind of put pressure on it for only a second at a time, with plenty of lubrication in between.
Most of my tooling is carbide, I've only got a little bit of HSS for tooling... Still got to learn to grind it properly!


The transfer of the hole points was a bit heath robinson..... I didn't even take a photo of it!

I drilled the ring first, then put a semi thick layer of marking blue around each hole. Then positioned it accurately over the die and lowered it onto it.
A light bit of pressure to make the blue transfer and lift off the ring, 4 marked holes inside 4 splodges of blue. The clear points in the centre of the blue were lined up by eye and drilled with a stub drill... I worked very well... Could be that it was a good idea or that it was just lucky, I'd like to think I could repeat the process. 


I'll probably get my wrist slapped for not using the dials or DRO's, but my DRO's are not working and the dials are missing the clamping screws (never needed them!) The dials may soon be replaced with drive pullys for a motorised upgrade I'm trying to invent in the back of my head!



Ralph.

[Divided he ad]

Sorry Stew, your reply was on the last page and I didn't see it!


I know what you mean about the pre forms... I was thinking that I might have to do that until I did the hot one, that worked quite well!

The 0.7mm will probably be the one I stick with... I haven't thought about using the brass again, it was so damn hard to form!!!  Maybe with a hot approach it might take the form easier?

I might just give it a go 




Ralph.

[Darren]

Darren, When you say slow are we talking less than the 1800Rpm I was running at!!?? 

The transfer of the hole points was a bit heath robinson..... I didn't even take a photo of it!

I drilled the ring first, then put a semi thick layer of marking blue around each hole. Then positioned it accurately over the die and lowered it onto it.
A light bit of pressure to make the blue transfer and lift off the ring, 4 marked holes inside 4 splodges of blue. The clear points in the centre of the blue were lined up by eye and drilled with a stub drill... I worked very well... Could be that it was a good idea or that it was just lucky, I'd like to think I could repeat the process. 



Ralph.

I think 1,800 rpm was a tad too fast Ralph. I'm guessing but have a go at around 300rpm next time and see how it goes. SS + speed takes the edge right off HSS in an instant.

You must have a good eye Ralph, and a bit of luck. But hey if it worked then it worked.

If you are going to repeat this could you not make some little punches, slip them in the holes, lower the top piece on and tap it with a hammer. Then you would have nicely centered punch marks ready made.

[bogstandard]

Darren,

If you are going to repeat this could you not make some little punches, slip them in the holes, lower the top piece on and tap it with a hammer. Then you would have nicely centered punch marks ready made.

They are called transfer punches, and worth their weight in gold.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-Axminster-Transfer-Punch-Set-23518.htm

You can buy all different sets, Imperial (the one shown), metric and drill sized. You can get them cheaper than this by searching around, and for the cost of them, you couldn't make them yourself for that price, by the time you bought all the diffent sizes of silver steel.


Ralph,

No vice involved, just plywood or hardwood (shaped), a couple of panel pins, some heat and a gentle touch.

When I get time, I will make up a little post to show you how.

John

[Darren]

You just can't invent anything these days can you John......

[SPiN Racing]

VERY Nice!

Loving it.. (Work kept me off the board for the last few days)

Im thinking one of those is going to be a really cool item when complete.

[bogstandard]

Darren,

You just can't invent anything these days

I repeat this on all the sites I have ever belonged to, when someone comes up with a statement like yours.

Mechanically, there have been very few new real inventions. Just old ones that have been rediscovered, updates to old designs, or ones that were designed but couldn't have been made reliable in the past, but can be made now due to materials and technology advances.

The Victorians and before were a real brainy bunch. Bring those people into this era, and I am sure new inventions would be popping up every day.

John

[Divided he ad]

Right... A few replies....


Darren,

I am not intending to have to repeat the hole marking, I just think I could if I needed to. The transfer punches were in the head at the time but I have non nor the cash to buy any right now. Not even sure if they do any that short?

I know this was at John but in answer to the invention statement... There has to be something to fix the doodad with a watchamacallit faster and more efficiently than with a thacktwacker? doesn't there? ... Also I have things on my shelves that I'm still searching patent logs about before I part with my hard earned! 
 (Top secwet, you know the rules? Tell anyone and your chances of the patent are void!!)



John,

Ralph,
No vice involved, just plywood or hardwood (shaped), a couple of panel pins, some heat and a gentle touch.
When I get time, I will make up a little post to show you how.

I'm waiting patiently       




Scott,

Glad you like it so far. 
 
I'm hoping that it looks half as cool as some I've seen... As I said I think the prototype will wobble a bit. But I'm on my way to curing that in the next one



Right one more reply to make and I'm off to the pub 



Ralph.

[Darren]

Ralph,

Unless you have the "gonads" ie tons of cash to back a fight, then a patent ain't worth the paper it's written on.....

[bogstandard]

Half asleep after a powernap, here is the method used by model engineeers for thousands of years. Well before everyone started to make their own tube benders.

C-o-C's explain it all.

Get thin piece of wood.
Around one corner, shape the curvature of the bend you require.
Down the centre (widthwise) file a half round groove to the diameter of your tube, to the depth of half the diameter (use your Dremel, or the caveman equivalent). It should shallow off and blend into the straight sides at the end of each curve. This supports the pipe at the point of max bend in the middle.
Light your fire or blowtorch and heat the area you want to bend on your pipe. Hold it long enough while heating, and your body's natural reflexes will tell you when it is time to let go, so it is better you hold the pipe with pliers or something similar. When the pipe is up to bright red, drop said pipe into puddle or bucket of water to cool off a bit.
Forget the tube for the moment, and go back to your piece of wood. Calculate how much of a straight you want on your pipe before it starts to bend, and position a nail or pin that distance away from the start of the groove in your wooden bending fixture.
Pick up your now very soft tube, place the end against the nail and hold the pipe in that position with the fingers of one hand. With the fingers on the other hand, push the tube gently but firmly around the bend using a smoothing action to push the tube to the botom of the groove. This should all be done in one very smooth action, in one hit. Because if it work hardens half way thru the operation, you have got to go thru the burnt fingers routine again.
As shown on the C-o-C, this super fixture can be used for up to four different curvatures.

Patents Pending Bogs

[SPiN Racing]

Hey hey!

I have a couple possible ideas for ya.

There are a type of bearing that.. I actually dont know the term for. BUT... its a needle bearing that has a bearing surface in the vertical component, like a conventional bearing race. However it also has a shoulder, and a thrust bearing surface on the bottom, with needle bearings.
I would think you could utilise one of those bearings in the upper surface to support the weight, as well as handle the rotational motions to keep stability.

Now another idea.. this one is kinda interesting.. and I have no idea how well it would work...
The center shaft, where it is up in the support, with what Im assuming would be brass bearing surfaces. How do you keep it lubricated properly?  Well... I was thinking of that.. and how about drilling a very very very small hole up the center of the shaft, and a hole out each side of it inside the bearing surface. Similar to the method for lubricating the eccentric shaft on Mazdas... not sure what other engines use the same method for lubricating bearings.
And you could also have a small port that aims at the load surface that it rides on.. assuming it has a surface the bearing rides on.

I dont know how the steam would act agains teh brass bearing surface.. but I would think a single drop of oil in with the water might be an idea.

[Divided he ad]

Darren,

I'm not holding out too many hopes.... I've been reading up on the whole process of patents for 2 years or so and it all seems like a con to me.... Problem is, how do I get stuff made by a company and not get ripped off in the process otherwise?!

John,

So simple it should be taught in schools!   I will attempt it the next time I hit the 'shop 


Scott,

Well now, there's a lot to get my head around!!

The bearings sound kind of interesting... Possibly expensive? I have some ball races that would suffice. They have a shoulder to hold them in easier and will not be subjected to much heat and a very small amount of residual steam/moisture. They would also probably be run with an extreamly light oil, possibly diesel?

The centre shaft idea is just a thought... I'm not sure it will work until I get the pipes installed? I don't want to make it too complex! This is an understatement when you consider what I am going through trying to make it!!  The over top bearing may yet still be employed... The good bit is a quick heat up and the bits I'm trying will fall out and new ideas can be soldered in 

I know what you mean about a lubrication delivery system but I'm as I said trying to keep it simple! I don't think it would need one? It will only require a lube' every few runs if I have my figurings correct?!

There will also be no need for any oil in the water as no moving parts will get bathed in either water or steam.

I'm not knocking your ideas...such ideas are what this forum is all about, sharing    Just stating what I'm trying for... Cheep and easy.... There's a joke in there somewhere!?!



I'll give the Boggie bender a go (erm!!) and then see where it gets me! ... We will go from there with a new direction if it sucks!


Right going to leave it there before too many other innuendos pop up!





Ralph.

[SPiN Racing]

Here they are!

The place I have the link from they are expensive with EVERYTHING...
The type of bearing is called a Nadella bearing.
Pegasus Auto Racing is the place I saw them on a quick glance.


I know it may be overkill

[Darren]

I'll talk to you privately Ralph about some first hand exp...offline as it doesn't belong here...

[Bernd]

There are a type of bearing that.. I actually dont know the term for. BUT... its a needle bearing that has a bearing surface in the vertical component, like a conventional bearing race. However it also has a shoulder, and a thrust bearing surface on the bottom, with needle bearings.

From the picture you posted I would call that both a radial and axial bearing. I don't think they make them as small as Ralph would need them. Although he could make his own axial bearing using some ball bearings.

I'll leave it at that. Don't want to hi-jack the thread with other info.

Bernd

[sbwhart]

Hi Ralph

Bin thinking about your bearings. 

Come up with cheap and chearful option you could try on your prototype.

What you need

1:- Ball bearing say 1/8" dia ther's plenty of places you can get them
2:- Silver steel say 1/8" same as the bearing.
3:- Phos bronze.

What you do

1:- Virtical bearing (the spinning ball sits on this) small bush with a blind hole 1/8 dia with the ball bearing at the bottom, the spinning ball connected to the silver steel shaft you can harden and nicely polish it, this will give you a point contact low friction bearing.

2:- Horizontal bearing at the top of the ball just the 1/8 silver steel running in a plain phos bronze bush.

I hope you follow this.

I'll post a C-O-C tonight when I get home

This project's all balls   

Have
 
Fun

Stew

[bogstandard]

Stew,

I think Ralph is going to use a single bearing due to the burner having to go at the bottom.

John

[sbwhart]

Ha yes    didn't think that one through.

Cheers
 

Stew