Cylinder Puzzle - Finished Weekend Project!

[Bogstandard]

If you think your milling skills are up to it.

Not a puzzle, but a whatnot thingymajig.

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/StepByStep/TwoSlider/twosllider1

The rest of the site also has some good stuff on it.

I have attached a PDF of the whole article, just so you can take it to the shop with you.


Bogs

[AdeV]

AdeV - AMAZING !!! Haha, my wife has just taken a look at the red one with my name engraved and even she was blown away!

I wish I could lay claim to them, but twas not me who produced them. I'm just impressed by them... I recall working with a program called Truespace some years ago (hmm, about 15 years ago, ouch) which could produce renders of similar quality.... but it would take about a day and a half to draw, and another day to render, on the sort of kit we had. And even then, it wouldn't be a "cad quality" drawing, i.e. you couldn't dimension it.

[jim]

excellent!

[Divided he ad]

Nice! Little confusing Xmas gift.... I like it 

Going to have to make sense of this one 


Slowcoach, Rob... Where were your lunch breaks when I was hunting for CAD help with renderings of my little torches?

In the end I used the world famous Crap-o-Cad program (from Bogo industries Crewe Ltd) Doesn't quite look as fancy as yours (only cost about 20p/50c though) but got the message across on John Somers web site alright... Well, John-som and Wongster Both followed my scrawlings, and their torches worked too! anyway... I digress 


I'm going to have to give this a go Chris.... After I have it all in my head! 






Ralph.


 

[raynerd]

Slowcoach - I`m glad your going to make one. Please bear in mind that I didn`t think of this - I got the idea off the internet and a chap kindly explained how his worked. I`m not sure where it comes from or who made it - I guess it is a classic puzzle but I have to admit, I`ve never seen it before.

I have just started work on my second yesterday made of brass. This one has an addition in which the centre core of the top piece is drilled right through 6mm, through the lid. A 3rd part is made, consisting of 6mm dia top, thickness of the lid and a shoulder where it goes to the width of the main core. This piece is bored throught the main body with a hole that aligns with the hole in the core of the lid piece. A thin single notch is milled in the top so that this new core piece can be spun from the top of the lid by turning with your thumb nail in the notch. 

This new piece slides inside the bore of the core of the lid piece. It will block off the hole that allows the balls to escape for release (through into the main bore) unless it is turned to align its hole with the hole of the core. The lid and core will then need aligning as usual. This new piece will also be sprung loaded separately so that is can be depressed (although that won`t actually do anything - depressing it will move the hole out of line (vertically) and block the hole even if it is aligned horizontally. Only a simple addition really but will make it harder - quite simple you`ll just have to spin this piece in line before opening as usual.

Hopefully it`ll work!



OK OK - totally pointless, it is hard enough as it is, but I can`t resist trying to make it more difficult!

[madjackghengis]

Hi Chris, I just wanted to note that it probably is high time you get nice and gushy with cutting off, you have a nice lathe, and you're working with aluminum at the moment, so you've got the basics, you just have to figure out where you get off track, and correct that.  A solid tool post is a necessity, a good sharp cut off tool, with proper clearance up front, a bit of top rake, supplied by a applying the blade to a grinding wheel leaving a bit of curve in the top, and taking off the corners of the tool, to prevent them from causing the tool to catch and dig in, challenging the sturdiness of your tool holding, with the edge just enough about center that it pulls down to center under cutting pressure, and you should be there.  What a lot of folks do when chatter starts, is back off, when actually increasing pressure usually will stabilize the total flex of the tool, and keeping the depth of cut consistent will keep the blade from springing up, and going into chatter.  I stone off my cut off tool before every use to make sure it's as sharp as possible, and with good clearance, and seldom even use my back mounted cutoff tool holder, now that I've got all the variables well understood and accounted for.  Not to stick my nose in your business, but I'd like you to be a happy camper, and it's much easier as a machinist, if you can cut off things.
   I found the rounding of the corners by accident, doing a round nosed cut off tool for a radiused bottom on cylinder fins, and was told by my thirty years senior machinist friend rounding the corners was probably the biggest issue for cut off tools, as they are the main reason for the tool diving into the metal with enthusiam.  I now hate to take a piece out of a chuck to put it on a bandsaw or power hacksaw and now avoid it at all costs.  Call me what you want, but get happy, and enjoy that lathe to its fullest, I know I dreaded cutting off for years and years. mad jack

[raynerd]

Yea, it is 100% my technique. I`ve spent £45 on a RDG parting off tool and couldn`t use it. Blaming the tool I spent another £25 on a parting off tool at the recent midlands show. Same problems, chatter and literally no cutting! Tried to apply more pressure and the tool end dug in and snapped. I know, I do need to sort it out. I`ve had mixed results. Sometimes it works OK, like parting off the cylinder top and bottom on my little stuart, but other times its a no go....

....talking of the Stuart  I best get back onto it!!   Just one more puzzle 

[kwackers]

You've broken the one you bought at the Midlands Exhibition?  

What I do to part off is engage the power cross feed and wait for the part to drop off whilst supping my tea.  

[AdeV]

Yea, it is 100% my technique. I`ve spent £45 on a RDG parting off tool and couldn`t use it. Blaming the tool I spent another £25 on a parting off tool at the recent midlands show. Same problems, chatter and literally no cutting! Tried to apply more pressure and the tool end dug in and snapped.

Does the tool definitely have a cutting edge ground into it? I have a parting off blade here (reminds me, I must make up a toolholder for it...) which was blunt as a chopstick when I first looked at it. I ground some relief on the front & top, but then I went all QCTP & haven't touched it since...

[Stilldrillin]

Yea, it is 100% my technique. I`ve spent £45 on a RDG parting off tool and couldn`t use it. Blaming the tool I spent another £25 on a parting off tool at the recent midlands show. Same problems, chatter and literally no cutting! Tried to apply more pressure and the tool end dug in and snapped. I know, I do need to sort it out. I`ve had mixed results. Sometimes it works OK, like parting off the cylinder top and bottom on my little stuart, but other times its a no go....

Chris.
Have you got too much overhang/ flexing?     http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2759.0

David D

[raynerd]

To answer all your questions, it is a long story but all I can say is I`m not short of trying!

AdeV - I`m using tipped parting tools - although I`ve had ZERO luck with them! I have had some luck and got my best results with HSS ground on ally. I got my tipped tools to work once on the Stuart I`m building cutting cast. I certainly can`t just "pop my parting tool in and part off" - no chance! It has worked about twice and when it does work it just strips metal effortlessly!

Stilldrillin, thanks for the suggestion but sadly have tried that. Even been to the extremes with just a few mm overhang ...still doesn`t go.

Kwackers - yep, snapped the pigging tip, it just chipped on the cutting surface. £25 for I bet seriously, 20 seconds of use, if that. I can`t get in touch with the bloody people from the stand nor can I remember the name of the stand I got it off. Anyone else at the Midlands show remember the man and woman selling tooling, up near the British Horology stand?

Chris

[raynerd]

An update on the brass puzzle MK2 :

I posted in Sept 2009 after returning from the scrap heap with this:



It was a 6 foot length of 38mm square bar. I chopped it into 3 x 2' lenghts just to allow me to store it. Finally thought this project was worthy of using a slither or two so I hacked off a couple of inch from one end. 



Held it in the four jaw chuck and turned it round! I was expecting some hastle here which is why I`ve never really used it. With my round profiling tool it was like cutting butter:


Then drilled it with my big 15/16" drill:


Reground my internal grooving tool, 


And started the groove:


Then used my  nice new birthday prezzy from my wife (notice the make!!) to hold in my mill while I cut the top circle.


So from a block of brass to a puzzle bottom cylinder!


Next onto the interesting bit, my new idea for the centre shield!

[slowcoach]

oh er, I like those v blocks, very posh!

Rob

[andyf]

oh er, I like those v blocks, very posh!

Rob

They do indeed look the business.
But it seems the Japs are outsourcing too. "Made in Brazil". 
Andy

[raynerd]

lol, did notice that as well!

They were purchased second hand off an old machinest who has sadly gone blind. I think he has had them a while as well although they look brand spanking new!

[Bogstandard]

Kwackers - yep, snapped the pigging tip, it just chipped on the cutting surface. £25 for I bet seriously, 20 seconds of use, if that. I can`t get in touch with the bloody people from the stand nor can I remember the name of the stand I got it off. Anyone else at the Midlands show remember the man and woman selling tooling, up near the British Horology stand?

Why do you want to contact them?

If it is to buy more tips, then really, you should know by now that when you buy new tooling, you should always buy spare tips.

If it is to complain about the tool, there is only one person at fault, and it isn't the retailer.

I see almost daily, going around various sites, people who are having trouble with parting off.

There is no such thing as a perfect parting tool that will cure all. I have quite a selection of parting tools ready mounted up, and it is a matter of selecting the best tool for the job.

Parting off and grooving can not be forced to work, it is a technique that has to be learned. No amount of upside down tooling, back toolposts, or any other gizmos are going to work with everything. If you can't part off using standard methods of setting up both your tool and machine to do the job, you will always struggle.

I honestly don't think parting off can be taught in posts like this. That is why some people have so much trouble. Even after everyone and his dog has thrown their bit into the pot, and then spending copious amount of money on gizmos, they still can't do it.

It is a matter of going right back to basics, how certain metals are machined, and how to set your machine and tooling up to ensure success.

If a person isn't capable of doing those basic things, then all they can really do is spend their money on a good hacksaw.

A machine and it's tooling is totally brain dead, it follows religiously the instructions it gets from it's master.


Bogs

[kwackers]

Parting off has always been a mystery to me - because I've never had any problems.

When I first started my lathe came with some appalling carbide tools, the sorts of things that in order to get anything to happen you needed extra leverage on the wheels and that invariably meant the job jumped out of the chuck or made an appalling noise followed by a poor finish and lots of smoke.

Fortunately I'd also just joined the local engineering club and in the first week guy from Greenwood tools came up to do a talk about tipped tools, the why's and wherefores. It was most informative, explained why you can't just use any old tipped tool that you happen to find lying around and why his stuff was good (obviously). His videos were most informative and I ordered a a couple of tools including his "kit-Q-cut" parting tool.
Those tools have pretty much been the backbone of my basic tooling ever since. They cut anything, last a decent amount of time and give a finish has good as anything I've ever seen.
The parting tool is mounted in a rear tool holder - not to give it rigidity because it works however I mount it, but simply so that having turned my part I can simply wind the cross slide the other way and part off.
Speed doesn't seem to matter much, you just wind in the cross slide and 'listen', you get a nice "hiss" as the metal is peeled away, come in a bit too fast and the tone changes and sounds 'aggressive', too slow and the cut becomes intermittent and noisy. I mostly part using the power feed on the cross slide. The tooling has worked on my ancient (and crap) Chinese lathe and now works just as well on my Myford 254.

One thing I've learned which may explain my "success" is a good engineer can do wonders with the shittiest of tools, but good tools flatter a poor engineer and I've learned to buy 'good' tools...  

[AdeV]

I had problems in the past with parting off, mainly because the old toolpost had a tendancy to tip up as the forces increased, with the result that the tool just ended up underneath the work with the cutting edge rubbing off...

No such hassles with the QCTP - although I have to make sure I've really wound the QCTP down onto the base, otherwise it has a tendancy to rotate when the cutting forces are high.

I must admit, I do currently refuse to part off steel; but only because the only parting off tool I have is quite wide (0.15" at a guess), and is HSS... I'm not sure how such a wide cutter would behave with a harder metal. It will chomp through brass & ali with no problems whatsoever.

[raynerd]

John - he didn`t have any at the show and asked me to ring the week after for more. I`ve rang and had no reply. As to the rest of your post - I`ll just carry on like the useless moron that I am but I`ll be happy with the hacksaw.

I don`t mean to be rude - but this is getting very very   I know I pick up loads and loads of useful tips on here from diverging conversations but this is getting a bit too heavy!!!

So.... cylinder puzzles.........??

[Bogstandard]

Chris,

There is no way I would class you as a moron, far from it, in certain areas and disciplines, your are light years ahead of me.

My post was about what needs to be done for anyone to conquer parting off.

That is the basic knowledge of how to cut each type of metal has to be mastered, and how and why each tool and machine behaves like it does while carrying out certain jobs.

Once those two things have been mastered, you should have no more lathe cutting problems.

John

[BillTodd]

Bringing it back on topic....

I made a keyring sized one from 316 stainless steel

I'd show you inside, but i can't get it apart 

[raynerd]

Haha ! That is brilliant!

 

Why can`t you open it - have you forgot the alignment or is something catching inside? I know I had a slight burr on the top edge of my groove which was originally making my first puzzle a bit tricky. I sanded it off but actually in retrospect quite liked it - made it a bit harder to open!!

I hope you can get it open soon - please post pics when you do!  I originally wrote, what size are your balls? But I think it would be better worded - what diameter ball bearings did you use for that? 

[raynerd]

Just looking at the pics again - are the balls a little small for the groove only you have got quite a big rise on that of the lid?

[BillTodd]

what size are your balls?

 

I started to cut the grooves to suit 4mm balls then realised I didn't have enough meat in the plunger part to make them deep enough (I was just making it up as I went along), so I'm using three 3.5mm balls  running in ~4.5mm long grooves, hence the gap. I don't mind the gap, being able to see the hole and notch doesn't make it any easier to get apart.

It will come part (at least it did before I fitted the spring)  ....

[edit] I've just noticed those balls are Kn****d, I might have one more go at the groove to fit 4mm balls

Ah here it is:

[raynerd]

Nice job!