Author Topic: BMW V8 dry sump from billet  (Read 206709 times)

Offline jim

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2010, 01:48:13 PM »
excellent :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #151 on: March 25, 2010, 02:22:25 PM »
Nice choice of tune Ade  :ddb:  Quality vid  :thumbup:


Looiked like fun!! 55 mins per hole!!!!!! :jaw:




Hope you'ev had fun today too?




Ralph.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #152 on: March 25, 2010, 05:46:31 PM »
Hi Ralph - it was only 55 mins for the long hole; the short hole took about 25 mins. The medium hole, today, took 30 mins, partly because I'd a better idea what I was doing & what drill bit noises I could safely ignore, and partly because I had a helper to squirt the oil for me, so I didn't have to keep walking around the job. That saved some time... Oh, that and the fact the drill bit, bless it, managed the first 120mm in a single cut. I was so proud...

As for the video soundtrack... it had to be Zorba, the only problem is, the film really ought to be getting faster & faster to match the tempo, but then it would have been too long & boring... As it was, I chopped the middle of the track out, which is, I think, why it got past the content ID censors.



So....... on with today's installment. I only had the middle-length hole (a mere 342mm) to do today. Here's everything set up to begin cutting:


Today, the drill still rattled the floor, but it cut like a beauty. The "customer" (Dad) appeared at a suitable point in the process to help out with the oil squirting job too, so that saved a bunch of time, it meant I could run the drill out, he sprayed it with WD40, run back in, rinse & repeat. It also helped that the drill was easily cutting 20mm, even at the deepest point, before it clogged up. So that sped things along nicely. As a result, a mere 30 minutes later, the full depth is reached:



And, for the pervs amongst us, here's a rather rude animation of those two pictures (click the image for a link to the big 350kb version):




To give you an idea of how deep the longest hole is, here's the drill bit positioned as if at the bottom of the long hole:



As you can see, the drill bit is actually a fair bit longer than it needed to be... which simply adds complexity and reduces rigidity. At some point in the future, I'll try the £5 eBay drill (500mm flutes instead of 600mm) in one of my leftover ali bits. If that one tracks true, then it'll be a lot easier to use than the 600mm version.


Aaaanyway, I'm putting off the next bit....

I had to know if the hole was accurate. There's no getting away from it, I need to know before I carry out the next machining operations.... So, the mill is re-set to normal, trammed back in (normally, this takes me forever - but tonight, with Dad watching, I managed it in 5 minutes flat ), lobbed the sump back on the table, dialled it in straight, and found the edges; loaded up the small chuck & a drill bit, cranked the table over to where I calculated the end of the hole to be; back away 3mm in the X axis (I didn't want to land smack bang on the tip of the hole, after all), and...






and....




















and....



















are you on the edge of your chair yet?....












...

















SMACK BANG ON TARGET!



This photo didn't come out quite as well as I hoped it would; there's a bright light being shone down the end of the long hole, and that's my test hole. But it just looks like I photoshopped a white circle into the pit. Ah well...



So, on that happy note, I decided to call it a night & come do this write up. So, to quote a program I often watch on Discovery - now you know, how it's made.

:headbang:

Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline andyf

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #153 on: March 25, 2010, 06:30:52 PM »
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The nailbiting suspense in your last post! And the cameo appearance in the movie! Alfred Hitchcock lives!

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Artie

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #154 on: March 25, 2010, 06:31:11 PM »
Mate thats fantastic, the worste part of this job is done... al; fun stuff from here on.... brialliant! Im so happy for you. :clap: :thumbup: :bow: :beer:
South Wales, wait...NEW South Wales... Batemans Bay.

Offline CrewCab

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #155 on: March 25, 2010, 07:23:29 PM »
Well chuffed for you here Ade

Well done mate, just brilliant  :thumbup:

CC

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #156 on: March 25, 2010, 09:29:24 PM »
Proper job  :thumbup:



Now the fun starts ehh!?!?!   :ddb:




Glad they didn't all take that long too.... Love the animation :lol:





 
Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #157 on: March 26, 2010, 08:56:39 AM »
Yeee....... Haaaarrrr!


Oh what a feeling........

Well done Ade!  :thumbup:

David D
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #158 on: March 26, 2010, 10:02:02 AM »
Thanks lads - I have to admit, I'm glad the holes are over & done with. Of all the machining I have to do to this thing, that was perhaps the most difficult bit... although I've got to measure up & make the plugs yet... so we're not totally out of the woods yet.

Anyway, here's a bonus picture; I wasn't sure if the camera would do it, but - once again - the ol' Olympus just keeps on giving the goods:



Yup, that's a picture of the bottom of the hole, with my test hole in it (and the camera successfully auto-focused on that, unbelievably).

You can clearly see that the test hole is a little off-centre, maybe 1mm or 2mm tops. Depth of cut's not bad either, it looks like the tip of the drillbit is pretty much spot on the 483mm, that test hole should be 0.5mm short of the full length.

I think I can basically pronounce myself happy with those results. Of course, whether I can convert this agricultural-sized machining success down to making tiny fiddly parts at a later date... well, that's a whole world of pain just waiting to happen I think...
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline andyf

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #159 on: March 26, 2010, 10:44:48 AM »
Ade, might it be worth drilling the remaining test holes (if you haven't already done them) with a small diameter drill so you can check if they are centralised, then (if near enough) open them up to full diameter or (if not quite right) adjust the table and then drill down with a slot drill of the full diameter, taking out the test hole in the process?

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #160 on: March 26, 2010, 11:01:17 AM »
That's pretty much the plan, Andy - I've not done the remaining test holes yet, but I expect they'll be off by the same amount. My edge finding was probably not all that accurate when I drilled the holes - or maybe the piece still wasn't quite dead straight on the angle plate, hence the slight misalignment; fortunately, it's not a critical dimension, so I can easily work around it  :thumbup:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline CrewCab

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #161 on: March 26, 2010, 05:22:06 PM »
Ade ........... what can I say .............. absolutely brilliant work mate  :thumbup:  no stopping you now feller  :clap:

CC  :beer:

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #162 on: March 26, 2010, 06:28:44 PM »
CC - cheers m8, the only thing slowing me down now is deciding which operations to do next...

So, tonight's not much of an update really. I spent quite a long time trying to work out why the X-axis was really stiff to turn (turned out I had the sump clamped a little too tightly, obviously the table was warping just a smidge, causing it to run stiff, as if the gibs were locked. Things went much better once I'd fixed that...

So, I've worked out how long my plugs need to be, to block off the respective holes when I come to drill the cross-holes. I've bought a piece of ali bar to turn the plugs out of, so maybe I'll have a go at that. Now, you may recall, I'd planned to go with a heat-assisted interference fit. But, as I've not yet managed to blag a free oven of a suitable size to warm the sump, I've decided to go with a nice tight push-fit, and I'll loctite it.


HELP! Which loctite should I use? There are so many to choose from..... I have a short window of opportunity to buy some tomorrow morning, so long as it's not an obscure one, which I'd like to do... Main requirements are: Copes with temperatures of 150-175oC, doesn't dissolve or significantly weaken in the presence of hot, thin synthetic engine oil, can cope with vibration. I just need a suitable product number (or selection of), I can try chasing some down before all the engineering stockists (that are open on Saturday morning) close. Many thanks.

Now, as pre-payment for that information, here are some photos & some wordy bits :)

As Andy suggested, I pre-drilled a small hole where I anticipated each main hole ending (more or less). Both tests succeeded, all 3 holes pretty well on target  :thumbup: So, I went ahead & milled out the holes where the oil will drain into the pipes:



Subtle difference from the wax one; as I measured the drill location correctly this time, it turns out the short hole is actually in the sloping section (which is not yet sloped), hence the odd looking  cutouts near the top left.

Looking straight down the longest hole, with the help of the red bar, you can see how accurate I was (or wasn't, as the case may be):



There's a slight lip where the red bar is (running the whole length of the pocket), about 1mm wide, which is where the pocket is slightly across from the hole (i.e. where the hole wandered slightly off course). TBH, blind drilling a 480mm hole with a 5/8" twist drill, I'll take that 1mm accuracy. I could probably better it with a gun drill, but at £1000+ for the coolant unit, before you buy the drill & the anti-waggle fixture (a sort of fixed steady for the gun drill shank), plus the inevitable contribution to Brown's failed economy (VAT, that is), I reckon I'm looking at the thick end of £2k. Worth doing if (when...) I put these sumps into production, but not before.

Anyway, as I didn't do much photography tonight, here's a gratuitous shot looking right up the holes (oo-err mrs):



Left to right, they are 230mm, 483mm, 342mm deep respectively. And now... good grief, is that the time? Time to eat....
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline andyf

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #163 on: March 26, 2010, 08:15:44 PM »
Loctite 668, perhaps? Datasheet:

http://www.grampianfasteners.com/files/Henkel%20Info/Technical/668.pdf

"Hot strength" is halfway down page 2, on the left - at 200C, it drops to half its strength at "room temp", but in your application it won't be under any real pressure, will it?

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #164 on: March 26, 2010, 10:50:54 PM »
Ade,

Looks like a good job to me  :thumbup:

Can't help much with the loctite things but I will add this: you should certainly test the plug thing at the full depth/longest plug on your test drilled piece of ali.

I say this because when I've driven plugs into holes with loctite on they have often bonded well before they have reached full depth. even gone so tight that a tapping stick doesn't help!

Making the plugs slightly smaller than you might think might be needed?

Hope it helps? Just wouldn't want you to screw anything up at this stage :)





Ralph.
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Offline usn ret

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #165 on: March 27, 2010, 12:13:38 AM »
Ade, great work, kind of like shooting a bullet with a bullet but in this case, your are taking a long floppy fluted rod.  :beer: and making it go where you want it to go.  More  :beer: We are all rooting for a great finished product :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Looking forward to the next installment.
Cliff :coffee:
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 12:31:30 PM by usn ret »
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Offline dsquire

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2010, 03:40:49 AM »
Ade

Great job. I've been following along and am glad to see that things are working out so well for you. I could feel that grin all the way up to Canada when you found the two holes lined up. Keep up the super work, I'll be watching. :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline djc

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2010, 04:44:26 AM »
Very nice work. A couple of points that might help:-

You note that your centre drill was too short. You can make an extension for it by drilling/reaming/grubscrew a length of steel bar.

Whatever Loctite you use, download and read the datasheet for it, most crucially the bit on the clearance required for the Loctite to do its job properly (basically, you need a fairly sloppy fit; too tight and the film of Loctite is too thin to work). Also make sure you clean the holes with IPA, thinners or something before Loctiting as there will be WD40 residue in there.

Offline No1_sonuk

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2010, 01:57:57 PM »
Making the plugs slightly smaller than you might think might be needed?
What about freezing the plugs before fitting them?

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #169 on: March 27, 2010, 02:49:15 PM »
Thanks again all, for your kind words :thumbup:

Andy: I looked at 668, and it led me to 648, what do you think? To quote from one site's blurb:

Quote
Loctite 648 high strength, high temperature retainer is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration.

Typical used for holding gears and sprockets onto gearbox shafts and rotors on electric motor shafts.

Recommended for continuous working temperatures, up to a maximum of 175°C

The only thing is, I've made my first plug (the long one), and I wouldn't exactly call it "close" fitting.... although it's probably near enough... I can always re-do it, if leaks.

Ralph - well, I've just paused for 5 mins after finishing the first plug, and I do seem to have made it smaller than I thought was needed!  :doh: It's quite a sloppy fit, so there's probably plenty of room for the loctite & no need to use the freezer this time...

Right, that's enough restin'; time to make 2 more plugs...

Pics to follow.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #170 on: March 27, 2010, 05:55:13 PM »
OK, so there we have it. 3 plugs...

First, load some 1" ali bar in the 4-jaw chuck. I've given up with the 3-jaw, it's impossible to maintain concentricity within 10-15 thou. It's bad enough with the 4 jaw, I can usually get that down to 1 thou runout given enough time & patience:



Next, turn down the correct length (plus a couple of mm spare) to 0.625", again plus a gnat's to take into account the drill chatter. I think I ended up with most of the plugs at 0.630", and they're an easy sliding fit (would fall out if you turned the piece on end). Hopefully the loctite will make that up & bind them firmly in place with no leaks. In the pic below, I'm taking a facing cut to bring the plug to length:



So, once the plugs are finished, part them off leaving a thin flange. I can't seem to get parting off sorted on this lathe, dunno if it's the tool, the technique or what. So I used the tool to dig as deep as I could, then finished off in the bandsaw. Then, put the plugs back in the lathe the other way around, and face the flange so it's a bit neater. No special reason for this, but it's all practice. So here's the end result:



And here they are, snug as bugs in a rug, in their respective holes (and in this pic, you can see why I had to cut the flanges; I used the bandsaw, which is why they're all at jaunty angles):



Once glued in, the flanges will be milled off, leaving the plugs flush with the front of the sump.

And finally, a picture showing how they work. The black shaded lines represent the holes inside the sump, drilled in through the side & through the respective plugs:



Obviously that's a bit crap-o-cad, the real version will have equal pipe spacing, etc. So, by the time I'm finished, that long plug will have been chopped into three separate pieces. Someone, somewhere on this thread, suggested pinning them (by which, I assume, they mean a pin inserted vertically which intersects the plug and block, thus preventing the plug from either rotating, or moving) - this is an idea which appeals to me, and I will probably do it.

Day off tomorrow, so the next update will be Monday.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline andyf

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #171 on: March 27, 2010, 09:50:38 PM »
Ade, I'm no expert on high-temp Loctite, but the datasheet for 648 http://www.loctite.sg/sea/content_data/93769_Loctite_648_Retaining_Compound.pdf
shows it stronger than 668 until about 175°C (you quoted 150-175°C as the most you expected) at which point its  strength is on an increasingly downward curve. The graph for 668, though getting down to 50% strength at lower
temperatures, seems to hold that strength as the temp increases to 200°C.

You pays your money and takes your chance, but perhaps it's best not to get too blinded by science. Drain plugs in sumps traditionally consist of a bolt with no more than three or four turns of coarse thread clamping down a fibre washer under the bolt head.

This sump is for a competition car. If the plugs face forward, air pressure will keep them in place if you go fast enough  :lol: :lol: 

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Dean W

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #172 on: March 27, 2010, 10:35:58 PM »
Wow, Ade.  I missed a day, and you really went to town.
The light you showed at the end of the tunnel is a beautiful thing, in this case!  (At least it's not a train.)
It's coming along so well, and I'm happy for your success.

Dean
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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #173 on: March 28, 2010, 07:41:16 AM »
Quote
Someone, somewhere on this thread, suggested pinning them (by which, I assume, they mean a pin inserted vertically which intersects the plug and block, thus preventing the plug from either rotating, or moving) - this is an idea which appeals to me, and I will probably do it.

 :wave:


Yep, pin down intersecting each plug section so it can't slide/pop out. As the side walls themselves would prevent them twisting on the pins, keeping 90+% of the flow contained even if the loctite fails. (belt and braces!)

 Hope it works now!!  :)




Looking good, and lots more answers on the loctite front..... Isn't the internet brilliunt!?   :nrocks:







Ralph.
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Offline jim

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #174 on: March 28, 2010, 12:13:26 PM »
i'd loctite and pin each section.

i'm looking forward to the next update!
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it