Author Topic: Beaver Milling machine runout  (Read 20788 times)

Offline Darren

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Beaver Milling machine runout
« on: December 24, 2009, 12:15:15 PM »
I've just measured my milling machine runout & on the internal taper I seem to be getting a tad under 0.001".

That's more than my lathe and I was expecting better .... but, my question is am I expecting too much and does this seem about right or should it be better ...

Had a bit of a google on it and not come up with anything conclusive......

The reason I'm looking at this it that I believe the finish is OK but not fantastic. If it could be bettered with new bearing or somesuch then I would look into the prospect.

Opinions, has anyone measured their spindles?
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 12:47:57 PM »
Darren,

Never checked spindle taper runout.....  :scratch:

When I operated real grown up machining centres, I drilled 1 shot holes accurate to 2 microns..... Usually!

Couldn`t do that with a thou` runout!

Sounds as though your bearings need nipping up, slightly.  :thumbup:

David D
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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Bernd

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2009, 09:16:55 AM »
Darren,

Had to go find some pics of that machine to remind me of what it looked like. Now with refreshed memory of size I'd say that the spindle should be less than .001". If you were going to use a boring bar to bore out a hole in a part I think you would need and want under a .001" runout.

I'll have to do a quick check on my Bridgeport later today and get back to you on how much runout I have.

Bernd
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2009, 10:19:34 AM »
Thanks Bernd, that would be helpful as it would give me a starting point to work with ... being a similar machine to boot ..  :thumbup:


I will also check the bearing nuts in case they have come loose when I had the top off repairing the bull gear bearing housing.
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2009, 01:50:43 PM »
Darren,

Just checked it. Looks like about .0003" to .0005". Probably not what you wanted to hear (see). I even tried to shake the spindle. Only moved about .0002". So I'd say I have a pretty good spindle on the Bridgeport for home use.

I wouldn't think that less than .001" would effect finish unless it was out more than .005" or so. Try to shake the spindle and see if you can get the indicator to move. That would show if there is any slop in the bearings.

Bernd
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2009, 10:42:01 AM »
I've not checked the tightness of the bearings as yet, but I have been searching for information on their types and size.

The Manual states three bearings of two sizes.

Hoffman Ball Bearing 135 ACDEP N1093A two of
and
Hoffman Ball Bearing 130 ACD 100 Series one of

No amount of searching for several hours has turned up the modern equivalent sizes or types?

I gather these are metric sized bearings, if anyone has any charts or other info on the numbers and letter designations I would be grateful  :thumbup:
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Offline Bluechip

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2009, 11:06:41 AM »
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2009, 11:14:36 AM »
Thanks Dave, but unfortunately as good as that site is (will be saved  :thumbup:) it doesn't help me much unless I take the bearings out and measure them. I didn't wish to do this until I have new ones to re-build with (in case by some slim chance I can't get them)

I'm really after a Hoffman bearing conversion chart to modern designations?
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Offline Bluechip

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 11:25:30 AM »
Ah bummer ... not so good then ??

Dave BC
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 11:30:50 AM »
On the contrary, 99% of the time that's going to be a good resource and a good link to share, just not this 1%  :doh:

I have no doubt the bearing suppliers can help, just not online. Call me cheap, but if I can get the sizes I can hunt the best price  :coffee:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 12:10:57 PM »
I have no idea if I'm leading myself down the garden path ... but info from several sites indicates

ACDEP = Angular Contact ??? Extreme Pressure

Anyone have a clue if I'm on the right track? Cos it could be rubbish  :)

No idea on the 135 or N1093A as yet ....  :bang:



Edit: D = deep groove? I'm guessing
But if they are angular contact then nipping them up may well help .... struggling here chaps  :)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 12:23:15 PM by Darren »
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Offline 75Plus

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 12:20:44 PM »
If you haven't already checked here, and struck out, you might just get lucky. At least the site is in the UK.

http://www.obsolete-bearings.com/

Wishing you luck,

Joe
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 12:48:20 PM by 75Plus »

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 12:26:23 PM »
If you have a two off, same number and a one off chances are you have a matched set of angular contacts right at the bottom and a floating ball race at the top.

Ignore the top bearing this will have no relationship to your problem.

The bottom pair will be opposed and have some form of preload, usually inner and outer spacer that have been ground as a pair to set preload.
Normally the retaining nut {s} are dogged up and don't set preload, instead relying on the spacers.
You can usually get more life out of them by adjustment although this is frowned upon by the flat earth society.
Depending on which way round they are fitted means that a reduction of one of the spacers will put more preload on.

One simple way of doing this is to make a new inner spacer up about 1/16" smaller and wrap a turn of thick plumbers solder round once to make up the hight. Once tighten to apply a slight preload, felt by hand it can be stripped and the total hight of the spacer and squashed up solder measured to allow a spacer to be made or the relevant amount ground off the opposite spacer.

Re read this post a couple of times to make sure you get the gist.

John S.
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2009, 12:51:24 PM »
OK, I think I got you ... I have added a drawing to help others understand what is being said here.

There seems to be two spacers, part No' 59 & 60. I assume only the inner one is adjusted (or we defeat the object)

Would it be reasonable to turn a spacer or is being ground precisely a critical point here?
Also if new bearings were put in do we now need to work out a new spacer size or are the bearings accurate enough to simply use the spacer as is.

I would consider new bearings just in case the old ones have indented races as they are old after all.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 12:54:27 PM by Darren »
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 12:59:49 PM »
Sorry just re-read your post (taking my own advice  :doh:)

Adjust the inner spacer  :thumbup:


The question on fitting new bearings and the size of the spacers still haunts me though  :scratch:
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2009, 01:00:40 PM »
Yup, you got it.

If you fancy a quick check and it's easy to strip take it to pieces and omit No#59 and just feel the top nut tight for preload, then do a runout check.

.
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Offline andyf

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2009, 01:05:24 PM »
Darren, as to replacement bearings, have you tried the original supplier?

http://www.hoffmannbearings.co.uk/

There's an enquiry form on their web pages.

Andy
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I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 01:07:01 PM »
Good grief ... now why did I assume they had long gone  :doh:

I will do as you suggest .. thanks
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2009, 01:16:12 PM »
That's not Hoffmann, just a trading company.
hoffman was bought up and became part of RHP   Ransome, Hoffmann and Pollard. which is now part of NSK.

John s.
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Offline andyf

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 01:17:53 PM »
Darren, after posting, it struck me that the Hoffmann phone number looked familiar, so I did a bit of checking. A year ago I replaced the imperial Ransome and Marles bearings on my mill, so Googled the name. I found a Ransome and Marles website, but it turned out that it was a front for Orinoco Bearings in Leeds. Orinoco's phone number is the same as that given on the Hoffmann site.

I suspect that Orinoco are simply importers holding lists of defunct manufacturers' stock numbers. I bought my bearings, but they had no manufacturer's stamp, so heaven knows where and by whom they were made. Not cheap, either.

Andy
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Offline ieezitin

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 01:40:16 PM »
Darren

Hoffman bearing company no longer exists its now RHP.

RHP, SKF, NSK, INA all bearing manufactures do not and will not sell direct to the public you are forced to go to a distributor near you or maybe now done here on the net.

That bearing is a Hoffman designed bearing 130 ACD N109A, so getting a equivalent will probably be a loss. So you are stuck with RHP to get a replacement. So your first thing is to find a distributor of RHP. Bearing Service Ltd is a British company they have depots all over the country. A little advice here if you purchase the bearings from them insist on some form of discount its so common to buy bearings this way.

If my memory serves me right ACDEP  Means Angular contact deep groove  ball bearing set with a pre-load and it should have a brass inner ring. Those bearing were designed especially for machine tools like mills jig borers and lathes.

Just found out BSL is now Brammer here is there link.

http://www.brammer.co.uk/default.aspx

If you have trouble with sorcing these let me know I have a few leads.

All the best    Anthony
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 01:56:59 PM by ieezitin »
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Offline 75Plus

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 02:59:34 PM »
In the case of too little preload the outer spacer should be shortened so the inner spacer can apply more pressure or the inner spacer lengthened to achieve the same result. Working with the outer one would be the easiest.

Joe

Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2009, 07:24:56 PM »
Thanks guys, seems I was getting somewhere with the lettering after all  :thumbup:

It's beginning to sound like these could be a touch pricey, and I still don't know if I need them yet?
Looks like I may have to find out though, bit more scout work to do ....

Really appreciate all the advice, getting me going in the right direction  :clap:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 07:20:43 AM »
Thanks Anthony, I think this might be the type  :thumbup:

http://www.brammer.co.uk/uk/percision_bearings_brammer.aspx
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2009, 08:37:38 AM »
I found this on http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/why-matched-bearings-bridgeport-110661.html

And have added it here for reference ...


Posted by Paul Hooper on the Chaski forum-

Now I know that this may sound like a stupid question but why do I need to buy a "matched" pair of angular contact bearings for the BP spindle, not just 2 off the shelf ones?.Isn't it the case that modern manufacturing methods would produce standard abec7 bearings of far better quality than the matched pair on my 1965 Bp?.I'm not looking for high accuracy just a useable mill for general fabrication at home.I realise this may create a little "interest" but I must be feeling brave today!

Response from Forrest Addy

Conventional ball bearings have a certain amount of radial clearance. This clearance will doom a machine tool spindle. The spindle requires a positive means of center the axis of rotation.

Consider the construction of an angular contact bearing: the line of action of the balls in their races forms a shallow cone. If the inner race is moved axially the clearance is taken up against the outer race. If angular contact bearings are installed as opposing pairs on the machine tool spindle they support it rotates freely without clearance providing a stiffer assembly than any other means except tapered roller bearings.

Ball bearings will deflect under load thanks to the elasticity of steel. If an angular contact bearing pair is axially preloaded a specific amount this deflection can be reduced to 1/5 that of an un-preloaded bearing pair. The preload ensures there's a certain amount of resistance to bearing deflection.

You can install a pair of ABEC grade 1 angular contact bearings in your spindle but the assembled spindle wouldn't bore a hole very round. In an extreme case you could figure an eccentricity of 0.0005" maybe greater.

The bearings may also run hotter or have end play depending on the "stand out" of the inner race with the wide end of the outer race. The amount of standout determines the bearing preload. In ABEC grade 1 bearings the standout is uncontrolled except as more or less flush with the outer race. If you installed them back to back (DB that is duplex back) there's be no good control over their preload except by experiments with shims.

ABEC Grade 7 angular contact bearings are selected for a number of characteristics to closer tolerences than ABEC grade 1 bearings. They are matched for OD and ID to within 0.0001. The concentricity and face runout of the races are held to 0.0002 or better to their registration features. The balls are matched within 4 millionths of a size and sphericity.

And as the final touch the inner and outer races are ground to produce the designed preload at the factory and the races marked to indicate the point of greatest run-out. Most ABEC Grade 7 and 9 bearings these days are ground duplex universal (DU) so they can be installed back to back (DB), duplex tandem (DT), or face to face (DF) as the situation warrants. They are ground as a pair and may nt be separated without loss of a controlled preload and consequent loss of performance.

ABEC grade 7 bearings have the usual factor marks plus an additional code usually hand inscribed on the outer race detailing in a series of code letters the bearing grade, preload, date of manufacture, and serial number. Yes, if you contact the manufacturer, he can look up the manufacturing data and the names of the techs and the inspector.

This is a world standard: ISO standards for their equivalent angular contact spindle bearings are nearly the same as ABEC Grade 7. A millwright repairing a Bridgeport spindle in Siberia can with confidenceuse bearings made in USA, Isreal, Indonesia, South Africa (or for that matter Senegal or Beliese if they have the industrial base).

Machine tool makers are in a competitive business. If they could install cheaper bearings and still satisfy their own specificaions they would. Downgrade your spindle bearings at your own risk. If you do, believe me, you will regret it sooner or later.
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Offline andyf

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2009, 09:01:06 AM »
Darren, I think all that can be condensed down to a single word: EXPENSIVE!
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2009, 09:01:41 AM »
So Paul's ABEC 7's fitted in 1965 now have play, at what year did the unnoticed play exceed an ABEC1 specification?

Answers on a postcard please.

As a reference any named supplier of bearings like Nachi will not sell ABEC1 angular contact bearings as they know they have to do a far greater job as regards precision than a deep groove ball race.

ABEC1's are related to deep groove ball races that you buy for pence and fit to electric motors etc,

Quality suppliers like Nachi will only sell ABEC3 in angular contact series and whist what Forrest writes about bearings is correct you have to take into account what it's going in.
Today housing can be machines to less than tenths in climate controlled shops, advanced machine tools also built to fantastic standards ensure this.

Now rewind to 1960 and some dirty engineering shop on the wrong side of the tracks using WWII tooling to machine the next generation of machine tools. Were those housing really true and square, are all the spindles produced over a day from cold machine to hot machine exactly the same ?

Has the machine ever been abused, crashed, put away hot and sweaty with no oats in it's 50 years of life ?
The fitting of bearings is just as important as the quality, well fitted ABEC3's can be better than a set of ABEC 7's thrown in the hole.

John S.

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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2009, 09:13:00 AM »
Darren, I think all that can be condensed down to a single word: EXPENSIVE!


(insert your preferred unprintable words here)


my version "oh dear, they just might be" more than the mill is worth I'd imagine at that rate.
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2009, 09:14:17 AM »


Now rewind to 1960 and some dirty engineering shop on the wrong side of the tracks using WWII tooling to machine the next generation of machine tools. Were those housing really true and square, are all the spindles produced over a day from cold machine to hot machine exactly the same ?




John that has honestly crossed my mind too ...... I'm thinking ... "oh come on.....!!"
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2009, 10:00:28 AM »
When I got my Bridgy the spindle bearings were shot and knowing how expensive they were I decided to fit a decent set of bearings and replace later if needed, knowing I probably never would.
However the bearing stockist had a set of ABEC7's he's ordered for a customer who never collected so he sold me these very reasonable and I fitted those.
Never checked spindle run out and don't propose to but this old POS has worked every week for me and put bread on the table, often the floor as well.

I often wonder what the ABEC7's are now rated at, are they 5.5 or have they degraded to lowly 3 yet ?

It replaced a large Mill/ Drill you know the round column ones that everyone loves to hate, which incidentally just had two deep grove ball races from some unknown origin in SE Asia, but that still put bread on the table and floor.

It makes you wonder doesn't it ?

John S.
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2009, 07:27:38 AM »
Yes John you have made me start to wonder if I'm being too fussy?

I have my son here over the Hols and have been spending time with him in the workshop. He's 15 an has taken to the 1024 lathe like a duck to water making some small parts for his car. I have tried to inc a few different types of turning jobs and he's loving it. Later we are going to pick up some wheel spacers and turn the thickness down. (show him how to use a dial gauge at the same time)

Suffice to say the miller bearings will have to wait for the moment, no rush anyway. I need to concentrate when tackling those.

But your writings are making me think twice, this miller would be fine in a normal workshop I'm sure. But you know how we home guys can be .... pedantic !!

Though I will say this thread has been interesting and I sure have learnt a lot about bearing types and how they are used/set-up.

If anyone has anyone has more info to give please keep it coming ....  :nrocks:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Beaver Milling machine runout
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2009, 08:04:12 AM »


I often wonder what the ABEC7's are now rated at, are they 5.5 or have they degraded to lowly 3 yet ?


John S.

John this line threw me at first, but this morning it dawned on me what you meant by it. i.e. the 7 grade bearings have degraded in your machine to ??? but are still doing a fine job ....


It has crossed my mind that the cheaper mills and lathes that many have (and I have owned) could not have the high spec bearings due to costs.

It simply would not be viable due to the retail value. But they machine just fine.

Heck I put new bearings in my 7x12 lathe that cost about £15 for the pair, not £400 ....!!


Some reality checks need to be made here me thinks .... I would like a nice expensive flash car, but a 10yr battered one still drives perfectly ...  :thumbup:
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 08:06:37 AM by Darren »
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