Author Topic: New Project Started!  (Read 58925 times)

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2009, 06:06:48 AM »
This instalment covers the pistons, or piston and valve.

I started off in the same way as the cylinder and trued up the cast iron:


Turned it around in chuck and started whittling it away nearly down to size:


Now taking finishing cuts of 0.0005” and trying in cylinder:


I got so far and thought right, it’s time to start lapping. I just did that with some wet & dry wrapped around a bit of square tool steel.
But it still didn’t fit after lapping so I took another ½ thou cut off and it slid in – DOH! It was a good surface finish so need minimal lapping and I didn’t want to reduce the size any further.

Also turned the spigot:


Parted off:


Am not that confident it’s a good enough fit, feels a bit loose so am thinking I’m probably going to have to re-make it.




Here’s a video of the piston sliding down with the cylinder resting on the surface plate, trouble is, the surface plate isn’t that flat so air will leak around the cylinder. If I put my thumb in the end and form a tight seal the piston stays pretty much where it is until I remove my thumb. So it might work, I’ll give it a try but I’ll know the first place to look if it doesn’t!


I also made the valve for the back end of the cylinder. I thought with this one I won’t make the same mistake twice, I’ll measure the bore and aim for maybe 0.1mm over then lap the rest until it fits nicely. Only got down to 0.1mm oversize, it wasn’t – it slid in again so I had to do minimal lapping to avoid making it much smaller. I have about the same fit on both pieces now.



Just need to drill the cross hole in the valve for the valve rod (slightly different design to Jan’s, I just incorporated it into 1 turned bit). Interestingly, Jan calls for a 2.3mm hole with 2mm rod. Wonder if this somewhat sloppy fit is just to stop things binding?

On the piston, I am going to do it the same way as my hot air engine. Mill a slot into the cast iron and cross drill right through. The pin will be a nice sliding fit in the cross-hole but a tight fit in the rod, thus will be held in the middle to prevent scoring of the cylinder walls.

So I’ll finish those off, make the little bushes, valve rod, adjuster and pillars then that’s the cylinder and pistons complete. Still have the base plate, crankshaft, conrod and bearings to do. Who was I trying to kid doing this in a week?!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2009, 08:22:01 AM »
Nick,

That 2.3 mm hole is necessary, it allows for the transition going in and out and stops vibration from the rod affecting it.


John

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2009, 11:39:06 AM »
Thanks, thought he must have specified that for a reason!
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2009, 11:18:07 AM »
Due to the bedroom obstacle and a cold starting on Sunday the only thing I've managed to do on this was 1/2 a cylinder pillar ... wasn't even worth taking a pic of. Just realised I'm taking lots of pics of straightforward turning which is pretty pointless after the first one! I am machining these from 303 or 304 stainless (can't remember which the guy said, but it is free cutting which ever that is!) It machines really nicely and leaves a superb finish.

The good news is, the bedroom should be finished by Friday and my cold should have eased off so I should be able to restart this project.

Have been thinking about what I need to do and wondered if it's worth getting a length of 6mm silver steel for the crankshaft and 3mm for the crankpin because it's usually a nice ground finish. got a couple of questions on this though

a. Will 6mm rod be a good fit in the bearings? I would have thought if size for size I'd have a job getting it through!

b. does silver steel silver solder ok or would I be best going for mild.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline CrewCab

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2009, 04:29:21 PM »
I was always taught to go 1 turn forward ½ turn back anyway. 

You and me both Nick ............. and I suspect ½ the collective at least  :dremel:

CC

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2009, 06:59:37 PM »
Hi all,

I've finally found some motivation to pick this project back up. The week I had on leave was ruined by the bedroom redesign and at the end of that weekend we all caught some sort of cold but this wouldn't shift. Still got remains of it now nearly 2 weeks later which is pretty rare for me. I tried a couple of times to go into the workshop but I simply didn't have the energy. Anyway, tonight I felt full of life and enthusiasm which was good!

Tonight's job was the two cylinder pillars, I'd already made a start on one but didn't take any pics of the machining, it was straight forward turning, the critical dimension from the base to the thread shoulder. As long as it's high enough to give the flywheel clearance, they are both the same and I make the bearing blocks the corresponding height that is all that matters. Also getting the thread straight was critical.

Here's one of them.

The one thing I am doing is getting better at forward planning with the more experience I get. At one time I wouldn't have put undercuts on and chamfer on the end of thread then I'd wonder why it wouldn't screw all the way home. I tried to part this stainless off but didn't like the noises coming from it so chickened out and sawed them off, turned them around and faced to length. For the undercut I used a hacksaw as again, the thin grooving tool was having none of it. I think I'd ground it from a bit of duff HSS that I had overheated at some stage by grinding too hard as it was all blue / brown colour.

Pretty chuffed with the result, everything looks very square.



This meant I had time to turn the bushes for the valve rod. Luckily I found some bronze (I think) off some old balance scales which was almost the right size. Carefully turned it down to size and drilled it.

My valve rod is actually 3/32" not 2mm so just got the nearest oversize number drill and it gives a nice sliding fit.


Here they are assembled, rod was marginally tight at first but a few strokes up and down and it’s a lovely sliding fit now, drops through but doesn’t wobble.


I may need to loctite these in as it was more of a push fit than a tight press fit.

Am very impressed the way this has gone so far. Apart from my blunder on the cylinder, it’s gone very well so I am just waiting for something bad to happen! The pistons may not be a good enough fit yet though but they are fairly simple to remake if need be.

Next on the list is the valve rod, drill the hole in the valve and the rod control at the other end.
Then finish the piston off, bearings, conrod, crank and base!
Still a long way to go, I don’t know why I am so optimistic with timings when I start out, you’d think I would know by now!

Nick




Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2009, 07:47:56 PM »
You're going about it the right way Nick.

If it ain't critical, use what you have to hand.

I have seen people searching for weeks to find exactly what is needed for a build, and all they had to do is look in their bitsa box for something close enough.

The only reason a lot of certain sizes are used on plans is that is what the designer had to hand when he built it. If he had found something different, he would have used that.

At least you can now say it isn't built exactly to plan, you modified them to suit your own ideas.


John

Offline sbwhart

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2009, 01:25:29 AM »
Going well Nick that looks a nice finish on the cast iron cylinder.

You probably know but there is more than one way to get the screw down onto the the shoulder, you can use a washer or you can slightly countersink the female thread.

Have fun

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2009, 04:13:37 AM »
John,

I think I remember the guy asking now if 3/32" would be ok! I actually bought most of the materials for this project - first time ever to save routing around and hacking big chunks out of unknown stuff. It's paid off so far as the material I have bought cuts superbly. The bitsa box is still required though, I normally get everything from there! Like you say though, it'd be as easy for people to just slightly adapt things to suit what is easily available - crazy searching for ages!

There are only a few minor differences in my design but mainly to suit the flywheel, because of its large diameter the con rod will need to be longer. Anything else is just simplified, if Jan has 2 steps on something, I only have the 1 that is required! I will have 1 piece bearing blocks too. Hopefully it won't detract from the appearance too much, don't think it will.

Stew, the cast iron seems to be a nice bit of material, gives a very smooth finish then a bit of wet & dry gives a nice shine to it. Good point, I might try the counterskink way next time, might be easier in a lot of circumstances.

Thanks for your interest guys.

Nick

Location: County Durham (North East England)

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2009, 04:19:27 AM »
Just a note Nick, if you haven't already made the little striker adjuster that is on the end of that rod you have shown. The original is a real PITA to adjust and keep tight.

If you want a piccy of mine that I used, and it works great, let me know.


John

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2009, 12:18:32 PM »
John,

Would like to see your version as I was going to redesign it anyway, it looks a pita to be honest. I was thinking of a couple of ideas but actually, if you say it's hard to keep tight I guess the pinch screw needs to go. The end of the rod could be threaded with a nut either side and maybe a fixed striker?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2009, 04:41:34 PM »
Nick,

It isn't greatly redesigned, but it does make it dead easy to adjust.



I put a small flat on the rod that runs thru the cylinder fins just where this bit mounts. You can just use a round bar, it doesn't have to be hex. The screws are 2mm.
This adjustment, together with the flame, is very critical. I found that Jan's way kept coming loose, as it was difficult to get in to adjust and tighten everything up afterwards.

This engine does need a rebuild and bling up. This was the prototype to get two of the engines you are making running together. Rather than running on spirits, as this one does, I have the plans for a micro bunsen burner that runs on gas, but like everything else, I need to make the very high speed drill first, so that I can drill the very small holes required for the burner jets.
Then this engine will be completed to how I first envisioned it.


John

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2009, 03:35:26 AM »
John,

Thanks for that, the engine looks great. Actually, I had already put a bit of square brass (run out of brass hex but have some steel) to one side to do exactly as you have done (great minds think alike!). I would have forgotten to put a flat on the rod though which would make it difficult to tighten. I couldn't understand why Jan did it the way he did, then I thought the brass might be too heavy and cause the rod to rotate and put unnecessary pressure on the valve, obviously it doesn't have any effect.

Thanks, I will follow your method there then. With this type of engine, it's nice to use methods you know work as trouble shooting should be easier at the end.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 03:48:21 AM »
Nick,

I made two of these engines at the same time, and even the pistons and cylinders were interchangeable, and still are, after many hours of running. I first got one running, then using the exact settings, even down to flame position and height from the first, the second was up and running in no time.

It is a pain getting that first setting, but I don't think you will have too much trouble if you do your tweaking logically, rather than thru frustration (and it will get frustrating), trying things willy nilly.


John

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2009, 07:36:52 AM »
John,

Thanks, I will need all the advice I can get with this one it seems! I think when it's done, if it runs, flame gulpers should be out of my system for good!

 :offtopic: My list of projects has shrunk... I wanted to do an i.c. engine and a hit & miss air engine to chuck's design and an i.c. hit & miss - but then I thought last night, hang on, why don't I just do a proper hit & miss and that will get the lot out of my system!

As with this one, as long as I take a methodical approach, proven design parameters and advice of others that have already been there and done that, I should be ok.

Couple more questions if I may:

Is your con rod 1/8" brass?
I have found some 1/8" brass that looks flat enough so I was planning on using that. Not sure how it'll machine though. I think Jan's version looks a bit thin. My bearings are also slightly different. 12mm OD, 6mm ID for the mains and 7mm OD, 3mm ID for the big end. I bought 2 sets from arc euro so I can use them on my I.C. engine one day!

Do you think it is necessary to balance the crank?
I was planning on not doing, it's something I can do afterwards but if it's critical I may as well do it to start with.

What does your big end look like? Can I see your big end? Could you post a picture of your big end up?  :lol: Having trouble wording this one ... Is your crank pin / retaining screw to the original design? I am thinking of simplifying this. On my hot air engine, I just allowed the bearing to slide on the rod and take up it's natural position instead of being restrained, as long as the crank pin is long enough it can't really come off unless the rod got severly bent!

Nick



Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2009, 11:40:14 AM »
Nick,

I think we discussed this the other day, buying specialist bits in to make something when almost anything will do.

This engine produces fly power, so if you could stop a sheet of paper from bending, that would do for the conrod, I just used what I had knocking about, as long as you can get the bearing to fit almost anything will do.
With reference to balancing, this engine is a very slow runner, I just made a basic shaped crankweb and I had no balancing problems.
Quote
Not sure how it'll machine though

This is where a file and handpower springs to mind. As long as the holes are the correct distance apart, it could be made to any shape. Two washers with a bit of rod soldered between would even do it.

LET GO OF THE PLANS SPECIFICATIONS AND USE WHAT YOU HAVE ALREADY GOT.

I will see if I can get some piccies taken this evening.

John

bogstandard

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2009, 04:32:13 PM »
Nick,

I have got you some pics, I hope these will explain things a little better. As said before, please excuse the state of the engine.

I will just explain a little about the big end area. It really needs to have a rigid fixing of some sort as if it is floating, it is liable to cause friction by being out of line at times. Even a tiny amount of the wrong type of friction will stop the engine running. These six shots show it from all angles, but you could use the same sort of setup, just with one crank. You do need to be able to disassemble fairly often, as muck will again cause too much drag and prevent running. So I just used a little finger screw to get things apart quickly.
The crank web was just a minor attempt to balance out the weight of the finger screw.























These last two shots show the position of the wick. It is exactly the same on the other cylinder. I use fibre glass strand wick which doesn't burn away like normal cotton stuff. I adjust for best running by pushing the bit of wick sticking out slightly one way or the other. This position gets me started after a warm up of the cylinders, then I tweak the wicks once it has a minute or two to warm itself up.
You will also notice how much muck the burning meths produces, imagine that inside the cylinders. That is why I strip down and clean out with meths every couple of hours running.








I hope this helps.


John

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2009, 05:03:02 PM »
John,

Thanks very much for your time and effort taking the photos, they are very helpful. I might have a think about the valve rod too, I am worried bending it I may bend the straight bit, yours looks silver soldered, not confident I'd get it perpendicular by that method though.

Tonight I made the effort to get a little bit done. I am travelling down to south wales tomorrow, it's going to be a long day, up at 4:30am to get an early flight, I'll be back about 9pm and don't think I'll be up for the workshop - besides, it would actually be dangerous.

As discussed with Bogs, I had pretty much the same idea as him although I've followed his as it was even easier to make from hex bar.

No machining to show as it was very straightforward. I took a bit of hex bar, faced down to length in the lathe. Drilled and tapped a 6ba thread in one end about 5mm deep, enough to break into the cross hole for the rod. Then into the milling machine to cross drill the rod hole and drill and tap the striker hole 6ba.

Here are the parts including a long 6ba bolt (striker), lock nut and a short 6ba bolt to clamp it onto the rod:


Here it is assembled, need to make the rod next!


I am still crap at taking photos, these were inside, it just wouldn't work with the flash, tried on a couple of surfaces. Am guessing the blue bedsheets were too dark and the white paper too bright  :lol:

Am getting there, if a little slowly!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2009, 06:44:06 PM »
Well,

 a tiny bit more done on this. I decided to bend the valve rod into that daft shape. I can see why it was done like that, I just don't like bending things though! Anyway, I fannied on for about an hour or so with this but it produced a decent result:







I drilled the cross hole in the piston about 0.2mm oversize and the rod length was a few mm longer I think because of the hex striker block. Anyway, it's not critical, I know it's ok at the 2 extremes, the adjustment can be done with the bolt and the pinch bolt. It's a nice smooth sliding fit, hardly any friction there so looking good at the mo.

I also got the bearings hacksawed out and marked so starting on those tomorrow night.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2009, 07:09:41 PM »
Nick,

As you know, mine was made to the old drawings, which showed a silver soldered right angle. I just held the two parts in the correct position with a couple of small magnets about 1/2" from the joint and soldered it up.

Yours looks just fine.

Once I had the engine up and running, I filed off the rod very close to the adjuster, so it is dead easy to set up in the same position after stripdown.


John

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2009, 03:19:26 AM »
John,

Yeah I was going to try the right angle but I only have a cheapo pencil torch in my garage at the moment so I thought I wouldn't be able to silver solder - sometimes it doesn't even give the right flame, spits a big long flame out of the end with no heat! However, as the rod is only thin I think it might have done the trick as I did manage to get it to cherry red a couple of times to bend it.

I just kept tweaking it to get it as square as I could. I was worried about putting a bend in the long straight bit but there is no binding so should be OK.

Ah, good point, I can fine tune that length if it runs!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2009, 06:56:27 PM »
Hi all, hope everyody is well.

I got a bit more done last night, but didn't all go to plan - you'll see below! I was planning to get another bit done tonight but for some reason my 3 1/2 year old son has only just gone to bed, the wife went ages agio and left me with him! Normally he's asleep by about 19:30 and it's 22:55 now!

I wanted to get the bearing housings done, these were to be done from aluminum plate. Again, I am simplifying Jan’s design slightly. Mine will have no support pillars and are a simple rectangular shape to save time.

Started by marking out the outline – something I have rarely done before, even used marking blue!


I was planning to cut the flat bottomed recess for the ball races with a 12mm end mill. But then I remembered when I tried that on the hot air engine, the hole it produced was much bigger than the bearing! That was in my old mill, with old cutters though. Nevertheless I decided to do a test run on a bit of scrap:

You can see that the hole produced is quite a bit too big, a very loose fit. So I set about measuring other end mills I had to see if one was just undersize – there was one, but I tried that and it was no good – too small!
So I found a drill that was just a little undersize, 15/32” I think ~11.91mm. I ground it flat and put a couple of reliefs on it, did the test and it seemed to cut ok so I would go with this. The fit on the bearings was a press fit.


Back to the job in hand shaping the housings then:
Milling to width:


Put them together to ensure both the same width:


They ended up 0.1mm under the 30mm I decided on but it really doesn’t matter! Being the same size is more critical.

Took a skim off the bottom face of both at same time – are end mills meant to be used like this? It doesn’t seem give the best or flattest finish.


Started milling the other end to length but I didn’t like using the side of the cutter like this:


There was a few mm to take off so I sawed the excess off first:


Then milled both at once like this to ensure both the same length / height:


I liked this marking out lark, it was easy to see things and because the arrangement of holes I’d decided on made it easy to confuse the two ends I decided to mark it out properly – ish!


I then spend a good quarter of an hour decided what was the best procedure for drilling all the holes – there were to be 2 x 6mm holes (just to make it not quite so boring), the 6.5mm hole behind the bearing to clear the 6mm crankshaft, the 12mm flat bottomed recess, and another 12mm decorative hole.

First off I decided I’d just make all the holes 6.5mm to save swapping drills. Then I decided I could have drilled half the holes by now if I’d just started!


The recess – looks not too bad considering it’s a bodged drill!


Finishing off with radiused corners – I nearly always mess the part up doing this, it always seems to move in the vice. I should take little cuts instead of trying to plunge in 1 go. So I had to take another couple of finer cuts so it won’t be quite to drawing but I came up with a method of getting them all the same using a parallel across the end of the vice jaws and flipping it over for the other edge. I’m not even convinced it looks that good, it seems to have become one of my little ‘trade marks’! It just makes it a bit more pleasing on the eye … I think?!


Jus the holes to drill and tap in the bottom. I’m using 2ba. Again, I just marked them out and this time centre drilled then drilled.



Finishing off the tapping in the vice once the taper tap had started the thread sufficiently:


I polished them on some wet and dry to try to get some of the nasty marks out. I hate polishing though so any I do is minimal. On the 2nd one I remembered that somebody recommended using white spirit as a cutting fluid on Aluminum – so I tried it for tapping. Worked pretty well, so I did a final quick polish with some white and wire wool! It was to clean them more than anything – there’s little point in putting actual polish on it unless all the machine marks are gone now in my opinion and they aren’t. I have ‘polished’ all the other items on the engine just with oil and wet & dry so far, gives a nice sort of engineering brushed type finish.



So, was quite happy with those, then I pressed the bearing in with the vice, but the press fit must have been too tight and it made the bearing bind up. Luckily when I got the bearing back out it sprang back to shape and is free again but I have probably done some damage to it. So I need to open up the recesses some how so the bearings are a nice sliding or push fit. I kind of knew this, I just assumed a press fit would be ok but I guess due to the small size of these it just compressed the outer ring.

I have thought of a couple of ways of doing this. Either chuck in 4 jaw in lathe and set it running true, then make a small boring tool from an old drill and bore out marginally. The trouble will be clocking it, I don’t have a dti with the little probe that flicks out sideways. Could put something  good fitting in the hole and clock it that way.

Another thing I thought of was making a tiny cutter with a grub screw and bit of HSS for the milling machine.
Or, I might get away with using the 12mm end mill in the lathe once clocked in 4jaw or even just hold the cutter in the vice and twist it by hand for the amount that needs to come out. I’m guessing it’s the run out on the cutter that makes it cut larger.

Should be able to save them some how though as the holes are too small at the mo. Any other ideas?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Darren

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2009, 07:06:20 PM »
Looking good Nick, you can use a milling cutter held in your toolpost for boring.

Maybe a two flute if you have one?
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2009, 01:57:29 AM »
Nick

Good progress, have you got a boring head you could set the job up in the mill and bore it out with that.

I've got one of those little clock round the corner things you can have, I'll try and get it to you next week through RO internal mail.

Cheers

Stew

A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2009, 03:23:26 AM »
Darren, never thought of that!

Stew, unfortunately I don't have a boring head. Is one of the things on my list!

That's really kind Stew, would be really useful.

Cheers,

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)