Author Topic: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike  (Read 37826 times)

bogstandard

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Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« on: September 03, 2009, 07:45:53 PM »
A few days ago, a friend brought around some bits and pieces of a classic racing BSA Bantam. A 1960's+ 175cc two stroker. The road bikes were very quickly found to be easily tuneable, and a new class of racing was born. This bike had been sitting in a ditch for over 2 years, with half the engine under water, and was thought to be a gonner, until he got the engine apart and found it was clean as a whistle inside.

Now to the tacho drama.

The bike had suffered some damage, hence it's life in a ditch. These first few pics show what it was.


The drive piece that actually transferred the engine revs to the right angle tacho drive was rock hard, and as such, the end had snapped off, hence no drive.




A racing bike has no need of a speedo, but it is of paramount importance to know your engine speed for gear changing so that you can stay within the engines power band. This engine as a stock item doesn't have a tacho drive, so what is done, they get hold of a drive off another model of bike, and bang it on. In this case, it was welded (and by the looks of it, not using TIG, this one was done the old way with oxy/acet).
The gear sits in the big hole, with the shaft disappearing into the depths.




And popping out here, on the inside of the timing cover.




Where you see that well manicured machinists finger pointing is the drive off the end of the crank, the sprocket is held on with a 1/2" BSF nut, and onto that nut was a piece that is now missing, that used to engage with the drive gear spindle.
So I need to make a new nut with a drive on it. Unfortunately, I don't have my lathe ready enough yet for single point cutting. I just don't know how accurate imperial threads will come off it until I have tried it out. Another problem, I don't have any 1/2" BSF taps. But I know a man who does.




A quick call to Stew, and very soon I had in my grubby hands just what is needed.




So now to the fix.
I have decided that the hardened drive is just too brittle, so if I put something on the end that is tough and fairly hard, it should do the job.
I am going with a piece of silver steel that will be silver soldered onto the end of the shaft. If I do it right, the shaft will stay glass hard for use as a bearing surface in the bronze bush, and the silver steel won't harden too much so that it gets to a brittle stage.




There is no way I can turn the shaft, it is just too hard. So out came the toolpost grinder and I soon had a spigot ground onto the end of it.




After shortening the spigot on the offhand grinder, this is what it looks like.
The slug on the end will have a fairly close fitting hole drilled into it, then that will sit over the spigot, and both parts will then be soldered together.




Thats as far as I have got at the moment, the next instalment when I get a round tuit.



Bogs




Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2009, 07:54:37 PM »
My James used to leave Beeza Banties in the dust!   :med:


I thought imperial threads would be perfect if cut with the 120/127 change gear?  Maybe there is some other factor I dont know about... :scratch:
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 08:06:50 PM »
John,

I used to run around on a James with a Villiers 2T engine, it would go on forever. But the best Villiers engined bike I ever saw was a Greeves scrambler owned by a friend of mine.
It just so happened that the Bantam was very prolific in the 60's because I think it was classed like a Honda 50, a get you to work and back bike, so that is why it was used, availability.

I don't want to get into thread bashing on this post, but just as a summary, imp threads on a metric machine, even with the conversion gears as we have, as far as I know are only super close, not exact. I will know more in a few days, as I have to make a dummy spindle, and that has to be turned by single point tool, a die will just not be straight enough for the job it has to do.

John

Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 09:09:45 PM »
John, my James was in truth, a very miserable machine though the engine did run well for about 30 miles before I had to clean the whiskers from the plug points.  Nowadays I would know how to select fuel and oil to prevent that but back then I went by the inscription on the fuel cap.  Bantams were popular here too but in this country they would have had to compete in the same price range with various pre-war and war surplus bikes of much bigger capacity of both British and American origin.

Mine had a pressed steel frame which must be been twisted as it would never run straight but eventually someone bought it and I trust they lived to 'enjoy' it.

I will be interested to read of your imperial threading experiences in due course.
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2009, 10:40:22 AM »
I got to the stage last time where the softer end bit needed to be made and fitted. So a piece of silver steel (drill rod), just a little longer and larger diameter than what is required was drilled to give a loose 0.002" (0.05mm) fit on the spigot. This is to allow the silver solder to form and flow thru capilliary action all thru the joint. If you don't leave a gap around this size, your silver solder will most probably only be sitting on the surface and will result in a very weak joint.

The two bits ready for jointing together.




And this is how it will look when finished (well almost).




Tiny rings of solder were placed down into the hole, and around the ground spigot. You have to try to imagine how much solder will be required to fill all the voids in the joint after it is completed. That can only come with experience, and no calculations can be given. The more you do, the better at it you get.
Flux was then spread around the spigot and down into the hole. ALWAYS use a good quality flux, old wives recipes are just no use, and by doing it correctly, you will end up with a perfect joint and very little cleanup required.





A little hearth was made up out of broken firebricks, and because I was trying to protect the previously hardened shaft, that was protected with a bit as well.
The long bolt serves a purpose here. When the part is being warmed up, the flux expands, and like a piston in a bore, will try to push the two bits apart. The bolt holds everything together by pushing the bits together in the initial warming up stage. When the right temp is reached, you can see the solder flowing, then another push with the bolt displaces any excess solder out of the joint.
It was left to cool down naturally for a few seconds, until the solder had solidified, then the part was quenched in water, but with the silver steel bit not being quenched, being held slightly clear of the water.




A quickie rub over with a bit of worn emery shows just how little excess soldering material there is. A file test was done, and it showed exactly what I was after. An original very hard shaft, and a softer drive end to absorb any shocks during running.




The toolpost grinder was brought into play again, and once the original shaft was set up for zero runout, the end attachment was ground down to exactly the original shaft diameter.




Finished with the grinding now. If you look really hard, you can just about see the silver soldered joint. Later, the soft end can be machined to the required drive paddle profile.




It fits perfectly thru the bronze bush and is just slightly overlength. The inside of the timing cover will be machined and cleaned up, to make the area a bit more presentable, and give me a bit more space to work with.




A bit of prodding with a rod and marking it up at certain depths then allowed me to get a rough sketch made of the nut that is required. Get that made, and it will just be a matter of tweaking things to fit.



The next bit of the exercise will be to make the required nut. That will mean I will have to single point cut an imperial thread. A thing I have never done on this machine, so a bit of a learning curve on my part will be required.


Bogs
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 02:12:51 PM by bogstandard »

Offline arnoldb

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2009, 04:09:00 PM »
Bogs,Great job, and thank you very much for the step-by-step on the silver soldering  :bow:

It is most inspiring to follow your reasoning behind each of the steps involved and then the execution; reminds me of playing a good game of chess.

Regards, Arnold

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2009, 04:39:34 PM »
John

If the thread you've got to cut is 1/2 BSF I've got a die, or must it be thread cut.

Cheers

Stew
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2009, 05:14:29 PM »
Stew,

Because the nut has to be perfectly accurate for it to match up to the shaft end I have just done, a die cut thread will just not be accurate enough. It only has to be the smallest amount out of square, and the runout on the end of the nut drive will break the end off the new shaft. As it is, I will be allowing a couple of thou free play in the slot which has yet to be cut.

But I will still borrow it if you don't mind, any slight innacuracy in the thread pitch can be put right using the final threading cut of a die.

John
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 10:21:17 PM by bogstandard »

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2009, 05:35:33 PM »
Oh nostalgia, things aren't what they used to be.

I used to make these for Manx Nortons and AJS 7R's years ago, there were 4 main types 1:1 right hand and left hand rotation and the same in 2:1.
There were others but these were the popular ones.

Ironically a few weeks ago whilst sorting out Tardis No 3 I found 10 bare casting in bronze for these.
There is about 3 odd gears in a drawer in one of the toolmaker cabinets but all the jigs and drawings are missing.
Cable end was 1/2 x 26 cycle, can remember that.
If I could have found the drawings I was going to put them on Ebay, one casting with drawings.

John S.
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2009, 06:07:56 PM »
John,

In the old days you could do things like this, wack it on and try it out. Didn't matter where it came from, if it worked, great, if not, try something else.

What you have got must be like rocking horse s**t by now. I would stick them on ebay anyway, someone who has a broken one will soon learn how to machine it, by using the old one as an example.

Mechanical things are now out of the door, it's all electroconical now.

Bogs

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2009, 09:03:20 PM »
Looking at the first picture... I was  :scratch: trying to figure out how you were go to fix it. Thought you were going to be cutting up a new gear! Nice job!

Eric
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2009, 10:16:38 PM »
Eric,

If you think about things, most items can be repaired, just like the drive shaft. I could even have it just like original if I wanted, hardened all the way along. That would have been achieved with a little change at the end of silver soldering exercise.

There is a saying, 'If it can be fixed, it was never broken in the first place, just awaiting redesign'.

These are the sorts of jobs that used to be done in the backstreet jobbing shops, unfortunately, all gradually disappearing now in favour of the "buy a new one one and bung it in" brigade. The problem is most times on something like this, where do you get a new one from?

It then makes a repair procedure very cost effective.


John

Offline chuck foster

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2009, 11:06:28 PM »
good looking work as usual john, thanks for the pictures and the write up  :thumbup: :clap:

chuck :wave:
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 07:01:11 AM »
Eric,



These are the sorts of jobs that used to be done in the backstreet jobbing shops,

John

HEY I resemble that remark, any Moore like that and I'll have to challenge you to a duel on neutral ground.

Warwick Show 20th October, soggy copies of Exchange and Mart at 6 paces ? 

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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 07:24:42 AM »
If I could get there John, I would take you up on that duel.

I know you are a master jobber, and to me, to be one is like like being a magician that can work miracles as well, and nothing to be ashamed of.

What will happen when we are all dragged out and buried?

Anything older than say 10 years will become instantly recycled.

"Sorry, that is a very old model (5 years old) and you can't get the spares any more" will be the answer everywhere, quickly followed by " but we do have a new model that will only cost you ten squillion doodahs".

Goodbye heritage.

John

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2009, 08:29:24 AM »


What will happen when we are all dragged out and buried?


John

I have already worked that out.
It was a toss up whether to be buried knowing that I owned  a 6' x 6' x 4' plot and the bastards couldn't send me a council tax bill or be cremated.
The cremated option worked best and the hinges pins on the coffin are going to be pieces of EN32. The cremation process will harden these to 56 Rockwell.

My ashes will then be sealed in a glass flask that pivots on these said hinge pins and I will then become an egg timer so I can carry on working.

John S.
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Offline Stefan Pynappels

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 07:26:29 AM »
Wow Bogs,

That is pretty amazing, having been born in the replace it or bin it generation, I'm very impressed!

Do you use an ordinary Butane/Propane mix for silver soldering or do you use something like MAPP gas?

bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2009, 02:23:41 PM »
Before I start, just to answer Spynappels question. I use standard butane/propane mix for all my small torches, and standard propane for the large burner.

Now onto this massive post for such an easy little job. This is definitely a 'takes longer to show than do'.


First off, I need to make a new drive nut for the tacho. So the correct sized drill (7/16") for the 1/2" BSF thread was put into the end of the bar to the depth that was needed.




This is a bad pic because I couldn't get the camera to focus on such a small part. What it is, is an undercutting tool, and this was fed into the bottom of the hole and a small area was relieved. This is normally done if you are single pointing an internal thread, to allow an area for the tip to run into. But in this case, Stew had loaned me the correct sized tap, and I wacked a thread in with that.




With the thread cut, I machined a small 'washer' face and give the thread a good lead in chamfer.




In this shot, you can see the undercut I mentioned.




And the 'nut' fitted perfectly onto the thread on the engine.




For the nut and drive to be made perfectly concentric, I required a true running thread, the same as the one on the engine, to be made.
In this instance, I mounted up some mild steel, and got to work. This mandrel will not be removed from the chuck until all machining operations are completed on the nut.




It is well over a year since I have done any single point threading, and this is the first time this lathe has done any at all. Plus, because I am using a metric lathe to cut an imperial thread, I will not be able to disengage the leadscrew, but reverse the lathe back to the start point each time. So this is a bit of a learning curve for me as well.
I am going to be doing it 'by the book' for my first attempt.
First off, turn the blank down to the required OD of the thread, in this case 1/2".




Then a small spigot was turned on the end that is the same diameter as the root of the thread, 0.420" (the thread depth is 0.040" for 1/2" BSF), then the spigot was shortened slightly so that it would not interfere with the nut being screwed onto the thread.




A recess for the tool to run into was made to the same depth as the root diameter.
That is the metal prepared for cutting the thread, now for the machine.




Unlike American (unified) or metric threads, BSF uses 55 degrees as a thread form instead of 60 degrees. I need half of that figure, so 27.5 degrees.
I put my topslide (compound) in line with the crosslide, and then swung it back by 27.5 degs. You remove this figure from 90 degs, NOT add to 0. So 62.5 on a normal 90 deg scale. If you had a 60 deg angled thread, then you would set your topslide to 60 degs (90 - 30= 60).
On my machine, I have put extra index marks around the crosslide top to allow me to do this indexing a lot easier. If you have a 90-0-90 or 0-360 scale, then you will be able to do this on your normal index mark.




With the topslide now set at the correct angle, then the toolpost was slackened off and the tool tip set using a threading gauge (slightly different to an American 'fishtail' gauge, which doesn't have the BS angles on it). Once set, the toolpost was locked up solid, and the angle rechecked.
As you can most probably gather, I am using the offset angle method to do this threading, not the direct feed in method.
I am playing about with my lathe here, and if I can do it this way, which is that hardest way, then I will have no trouble using other methods.




First off, I touched the tool onto the thread top OD using the crosslide dial.




The crosslide dial is then zeroed. Thru the whole threading operation, this dial will be either wound back to retract the tool, or after retracting, it will be wound forwards to this zero setting. All cuts will be put on using the topslide.




With the crosslide at zero, the tool was fed forwards using the topslide until the tool touched on the spigot for the thread root diameter. The topslide dial was then zeroed.
So if I now only use the topslide for feed, when the crosslide dial is at zero and the topslide dial is also at zero, the thread should be at the correct depth.




The machine change gears and dials were set for what the chart told me to do.




To show better what I am doing, I blued up the bit of steel.
With the crosslide at zero, I brought the topslide in until it just touched on.




At that setting, I engaged the half nuts and took a cut. The half nuts will now stay permanently engaged until the full thread is completed.
This 'swipe' was checked with my thread gauge to make sure things were OK.
It was now a case of retract crosslide, reverse the machine to wind things back to the start, forwards on the crosslide to zero, put a bit more cut on with the topslide and take another cut, then repeat from the beginning of this sentence.
When you start to get close to the zero on the topslide, you start checking with the nut for fit.
What I do, when very close, I do no more topslide cuts, just minute cuts with the crosslide. This cleans up the threads. When very, very close, I put no more cut on at all. Just let the tool go down the thread a couple of times at that setting. You will find that this removes minute amounts from the thread and really cleans them up.




Thread cut.




Nut fits just fine.

I did in fact have a die for this thread, kindly loaned to me by Stew, and I was going to use it to finish this thread off. But then I thought, lets see if this lathe can cut an almost true thread, and it looks like it does. Confidence in cutting an accurate imperial thread on this metric lathe has just gone up by 1000%.




The little root depth spigot was turned off and the thread was given a nice chamfer on the end. I now have a perfectly true running thread to cut the nut on.




Oh! s£RF^&**(

I cut a bit too close to the nut end, and the end fell off. That is just me being too confident and in a rush to get the job finished.




But as usual, I had a setup spare in my back pocket, and it was duly finished off to obtain exactly what I wanted.




The engine couldn't be checked out until this nut was made.
Unfortunately, when it was fitted, and the cover was put on, I stuck a transfer punch down the hole that the other bit feeds into and gave it a tap, turned the engine thru 180 degs, and then another tap.
As you can see, the pop marks should have been in the middle of the nut. This shows that the welded on bit isn't in line with the centre of the crank.



So it looks like that was the cause of the original failure of the spade on the end of the gear shaft.
Now that I know what the problem is, the cure is a fairly simple, but a largish set up on the mill, and a little more turning.

A small 'just' job has turned into a major fix.

But that is what friends are for.


Bogs

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 03:25:59 PM »
Blimey John how are you going to get things lined up bush and re drill the case  :scratch:

Lovely work..

Stew
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Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2009, 05:10:39 PM »
Great write up John!   :clap:

BTW, :offtopic:I dont think you need have any fears about cutting imperial threads provided you have the 120/127 change gear, you will recall the table I calculated some months ago and the perfect ratios that were identified.  The lathe will cut imperial threads just as accurate as metric which I presume depends upon the accuracy of the metric feed screw.
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2009, 06:02:42 PM »
Stew,

It is actually a fairly easy exercise.
Clamp the one half of the crankcase to the mill table. Centre up on the main bearing. Put the outer cover back on, and bore away to fit a new threaded bush. Spot on centre.

John,

I didn't want to do any single point cutting until I was properly prepared for it, and to really check everything out, and catalogue my findings. Unfortunately this job came along and I was forced to do it.

I had already given your charts a good dose of looking at, but as you know, sometimes there is a great deal of difference between theory and practice. This time, it looks like your theory is spot on, and I will have a lot less trepidation when it comes for me to do some more imperial threading. Nice one.

But one thing I must get done is the retracting toolpost. What I was doing today was a real PITA.

In fact this lathe has really surprised me. I have used all sorts of change geared lathes, and have spent hours setting up gear trains to get just what I wanted, but this one was so easy, with the built in selectable box and a couple of gear swaps, it was all done in about 5 minutes. The only problem is that now I have to get back in there and put it all back to how it was. I had set it up for really nice fine feeds.

Bogs

Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2009, 06:11:22 PM »
In fact this lathe has really surprised me. I have used all sorts of change geared lathes, and have spent hours setting up gear trains to get just what I wanted, but this one was so easy, with the built in selectable box and a couple of gear swaps, it was all done in about 5 minutes. The only problem is that now I have to get back in there and put it all back to how it was. I had set it up for really nice fine feeds.

Bogs

John, your comments give me great confidence that this, my first and doubtless only lathe, was a good choice.

I think my favourite handle on the gear head is the one marked 'I' 'II',  instant change between fine and really fine! :med:
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2009, 06:20:00 PM »
John,

My favourite as well, but I wish it had synchromesh on the screw fwds/rev lever, it is a real pain stopping the machine to feed the other way.


John

Offline Bernd

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2009, 06:28:00 PM »
John,

Very nice write up on threading.  :thumbup:

You explained it exactley the way I learned it, except for the imperial thread cutting on a metric lathe. People should now be pointed in this direction when they ask how to single point threads.

Bernd
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Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2009, 06:29:22 PM »
John,

My favourite as well, but I wish it had synchromesh on the screw fwds/rev lever, it is a real pain stopping the machine to feed the other way.


John

Fortunately the fwd/rev lever has a neutral position so maybe a cunning Madmodder could fit a seperate electric motor to drive the feed box?  Cutting feeds only as that would not be practical for thread cutting.
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2009, 03:58:00 AM »
John,

Just as an example and piece of mind set the lathe for say 10 tpi [ easy to measure ] engage half nuts and move forward to take slack out and finish up about 8" from the chuck.
Mark a jaw with pen and bring it round by hand so it butts onto a bar between the jaw and the bed. This will give a know position, measure from that jaw to the tool.

Now turn the lathe 60 revs and stop it at the same jaw with the same bar stop, measure again, Has it moved exactly 6" ?

Obviously you need to keep turning one way only because of backlash and all by hand so there are no accidents and jam up and it will be interesting to see the results.

John S.
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2009, 02:44:09 PM »
John,

Thanks for the tip. Isn't it nice when you have people brainier than yourself helping out?

I have just been thinking about it (my brain cell now hurts), and if I zero my DRO after all the backlash has been taken out, I should be able to check the overall movement to an accuracy of 0.0001".

Now THAT will really tell me how close it can get.

Nice one John.

I will get it done tomorrow and let you know the results.


John

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2009, 03:14:29 PM »
Duh,
Forgot you had the DRO fitted, even easier then.
John Stevenson

bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2009, 12:57:57 AM »
These are pictures that have been taken over a period of time when I felt like doing a bit in the shop over the last week or so.

The last post finished off where I had made the perfectly true running nut, and then found out that the ali boss had been welded onto the outer case way off centre.

This shot show just how far off centre it really was. Whoever did it had no thought about getting the two critical parts centred to each other, and because of that, has caused this complete rework. Damned amateurs!!!




I stripped the crank out of the case, and got the case clamped to the table using the strongpoints already on the case half.




Then using the main datum on the engine, the crank bearing, I zeroed up the mill to it.




Zeroed up and the table locked up solid.




Because the case has oil galleries drilled all around it, plus the open main bearing, I sealed everything up with pure aluminium tape. This tape will not be removed until every bit of swarf from the machining has been cleaned up.




Luckily, the outer cover has two datum pins built in, so the cover should always go back into exactly the same place each time. The cover was bolted to the already clamped crankcase half.




Then it was just a case of rough boring until all signs of the old thread had been removed.




Once the threads were machined away, I did a very fine bore to clean everything up and get it to an easily remembered size.




This shot shows how close this job had come to being a complete failure. If the block had been welded 1/8" further away from central, it would have been almost impossible to rescue by using this method.




A recess was made to as large a size as I dared go, without the risk of breaking thru the edge of the boss, taking into account I will be dressing up the boss a little later.




It is a bit of lathe time now. A lump of ali was turned down until it was a nice sliding fit in the larger recess I had just bored.




A spigot was then turned onto the end of the bar, 0.002" (0.05mm) smaller than the thru hole I had bored, and of the correct length to fit thru the casing. The smaller size is to allow clearance for the loctite I will be using.




The plug was parted off, all parts to do with the assembly were given a good spirits clean down. Then it was assembled using hi strength loctite and left to cure a while.




As you all know, I throw away nothing that might have a use in my shop. This time it was an old ali knitting needle. I have found that the metal in them is a lot more rigid than normal ali bar, and once the outer coating has been cleaned off, it makes great pins for holding ali bits together.
So, I hand drilled two holes roughly 90 degs apart that penetrated well into the plug, then with loctite on the end of the pins, they were hammered into position. This is a belts and braces way of fixing. That plug is going nowhere fast.




Then it was just a matter of putting the cover back onto the still zeroed case, and drilling out with the right sized drill (7/16") for cutting a new 1/2" BSF thread.




Everything perfectly square and the new thread was cut.




The final act was to skim the top face with a fly cutter.




So except for blending this welded on boss into the case to make it look like it has always been there, it is just a matter of machining up the drive nut and takeoff.

Hopefully.


Bogs

Offline dsquire

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2009, 01:31:08 AM »
John

Excellent rescue. You have a way of making look easy what to some looks near impossible.

When you look at the way the case was welded up you wonder what they were thinking. I guess the answer is that they wern't.

Cheers :beer:

Don

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2009, 02:45:04 AM »
Don,

This engine is in fact 50 years old this year, so it has had all sorts of mods done to it using old 'that will do' technology. Most have worked, some, like this one, haven't. You don't even want to see the crank, where they have attempted to reduce the swept volume by 'sticking' ali plates into the recesses. That is another thing I need to sort out.

I am hopefully going to try to give this engine another 50 years of life, and although it will never be raced again, it will be brought out of mothballs for a few weeks each year, to go around race circuits to show what these bikes from the past looked and sounded like.
I think it is called 'preserving our heritage', and is the reason I don't charge for work like this.

Things I do sometimes, do look easy, that is because they are. It is all to do with having the b***s to make a decision and get on with it, and use straight forwards engineering practices to get it back to how it should be. This outer cover, to the owner, is priceless. It could be replaced with another, but it wouldn't be the original one off the engine, with all it's associated history. Even though I am doing major changes to it, it is and will be listed in the bikes' history of modifications done to it. I actually have other mods that need doing to this cover, but they won't be shown as they are not repairs, but upgrades to old work that have worn out over the years of racing, like putting in phos bronze bushes in place of the brass ones originally used, and doing a better gas flowing job on this crankcase bottom half.

All this work is done on a slot in basis. If I can find the time to do it, it gets done. Otherwise I goes onto the pile to be done another time. If all goes well, and I feel up to it, this engine will have another weeks spare time work done on it, then put back on the pile awaiting other mods and repairs to be done. No rush, the bike won't be finally assembled until this time next year.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2009, 04:36:30 AM »
Very nice John, great to see these babies are still appreciated... :clap:

Almost makes me want one....again..... :doh:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2009, 05:41:08 AM »
Very interesting Mr Bogs, I like to watch work on things like that.

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2009, 06:18:34 AM »
Darren,

My bike is 20 years old now, and was going to get rid of it because of my problem of getting my leg over (no filthy thoughts or comments please), but now that it has the auto park and ride off stand fitted to it, it makes it a lot safer to climb on and off, plus I don't need to be very strong to hold it upright for a long period. Scramble on, select the gear and ride off, the stand auto retracts, and to park, select reverse, push down on the stand side bar, press a button and the bike parks itself. So now I have decided to keep it and restore it over time.
Most of it is just ali and stainless polishing and getting the electrics sorted (removing hundreds of display lights), as a good friend of ours has said he will scramble around the floor to do the only bit of mechanical work that needs doing, nice one Ralph :thumbup:

It is all too easy to break these bikes up and sold for spares, but it is a lot more enjoyable keeping them running as they should.

It seems like all the younger generation want is speed, noise, and to turn themselves into organ donors. It us up to us old pharts to show them what motorcycling was, and is, all about.

Besides, if I drove my car continuously for an hour, I would be off my legs for at least a day, maybe more. When I get on the bike, all aches and pains disappear and I could ride forever. So in the near future, it might be the only means I will have of getting around.


John

Offline ozzie46

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2009, 07:23:46 AM »


  Great work John, You never cease to amaze me.

  Ron

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2009, 09:15:27 AM »
John,
Why not part true the OD of the boss up with a left hand boring tool, [ no joke they do exist but John probably knows that and has some ]

John S.

PS Did you check the pitch when in imperial ?
John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2009, 09:22:18 AM »
John,

Actually, I was just about to remount it to do just that, I have just been scribing around the takeoff fitting to give me the size I should go to.

But I am using a standard cutter facing inwards and running the mill in reverse (I knew I would get to use that feature one day).

John

ADDED LATER

Just had Stew down to visit and we put it up onto the table. It won't work, can't get enough all round depth to clean it up, so it will have to be done with a normal cutter and eyeball.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 10:15:35 AM by bogstandard »

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2009, 04:05:11 PM »
Not much to show this time, as I have been doing other work on this part and the engine.

Because I couldn't use John's suggestion of using an inner cutting boring tool, I had to mount the cover onto the RT and do the job freehand using a ball nosed cutter to shape the boss and weld area so that it would look like it was part of the original cover casting.
It didn't take more than about ten minutes once I got the RT fitted up with a mandrel to hold the cover and get it centralised.




A bit of work with a small drum sander in the mini drill soon had it basically to shape and blended in nicely.




It was at this time I had to make some phos bronze bushes to fit this cover and an internal hole in the crankcase as well. The kick start had been removed years ago, but all the operating mechanism had been left in. It was now the time to get the engine modded to remove it completely, and save a few pounds in weight. So now the gear lever shaft has it's own internal and external support bearings rather than relying on the kick start mechanism to do the job.
So after that, I got this bit reworked by banging out all the dents, and blending out the scratches it had picked up during it's life. Then onto the buffing machine to get everything blended together using a hard sisal mop and some heavy cutting soap, then back to the mini polisher to blend the bits I couldn't get at.




So this is after the first polish of the ali engine covers. As you can now see, the original welded on boss looks like it has been part of this engine since it's manufacture, I even managed to shape some of the weld to run up the boss like an extension of the cast on centre line, making it look even more like it was part of the original casting.
I can't do any more to this at this time. The other day I replaced the bearings in the crankcase, and I am still waiting for another one to fit. Without it, I can't assemble the crank in the case and carry out the machining on the two bits that this post is all about.




A good shower needed now, I look like Al Jolson, from all the buffing I have done.


Bogs

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2009, 04:11:55 PM »
Mammeeeee, the sun shines east [ on a good day ]  :wave:

John S.
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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2009, 04:48:54 PM »
You've just reminded me John, so I have popped out to the shop and got my notes.

Readings when I checked my lathe for doing imperial threading.

I decided to check using the 16 TPI I already had set up. Which should give 0.0625" movement per revolution.


No of turns on chuck       Saddle movement

  2                                    0.124"
  4                                    0.249"
  8                                    0.498"
 16                                   0.998"
 24                                   1.498"
 32                                   1.998"
 40                                   2.498"
 48                                   2.998"

So it looks like there was a minute amount of backlash to take up at the beginning, then after that, everything was absolutely perfect. So now I know that at least I can cut 16 TPI and know it is correct. I think I will do a few more different settings, just to see if it is still as accurate.

John

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2009, 04:52:54 PM »
Great job John

You've really transformed it  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2009, 05:10:12 PM »
Lovely finish John, looks factory now..... :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2009, 05:20:03 PM »
You've just reminded me John, so I have popped out to the shop and got my notes.

Readings when I checked my lathe for doing imperial threading.

I decided to check using the 16 TPI I already had set up. Which should give 0.0625" movement per revolution.


No of turns on chuck       Saddle movement

  2                                    0.124"
  4                                    0.249"
  8                                    0.498"
 16                                   0.998"
 24                                   1.498"
 32                                   1.998"
 40                                   2.498"
 48                                   2.998"

So it looks like there was a minute amount of backlash to take up at the beginning, then after that, everything was absolutely perfect. So now I know that at least I can cut 16 TPI and know it is correct. I think I will do a few more different settings, just to see if it is still as accurate.

John

magic.
piece of mind for when you come to do any other imperial work.

John S.
John Stevenson

Offline dsquire

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2009, 06:14:35 PM »
John

You have got her looking good now John. Good job.  :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers :beer:

Don

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Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2009, 06:36:14 PM »
Nice polish work there John, perhaps you could spend a bit of time with the Autosol on my Douglas next time you call by? :lol:
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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2009, 04:25:47 AM »
John,

There is no comparison with Autosol, that is too much like hard work.

Autosol gives a slightly grey overall shine, whereas with a buffing mop and the correct soap you can get that almost chrome, deep lustre on ali, and because of the waxes in the soap, the shine lasts much longer, as the oxide layer is protected from the elements.

A quick spray over with a household polish (I use Mr.Sheen) every now and again, and that shine will last for years.

Even a mop mounted on an electric drill will give better results than Autosol.

I actually use Autosol on my mini drill mop as an intermediate cutting agent, then finish off using the correct grade soap.


John

Offline Bernd

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2009, 07:33:28 AM »
Bogs,

I'm impressed not only do you make excellent parts by machines, but can really bling (both shiny & repair ) up a piece of cast material as well.  :bow:

Nice job and an excellent thread on repairing a casting that was botched up from the begining.  :thumbup:

Bernd
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2009, 12:00:32 PM »
Just going back to using the boring head in reverse. If its an imported one like mine and it looks like it is then the black body just screws to the arbour and running in reverse can cause it to unscrew. I had this happen to me when trying to machine an external boss using a standard bit, luckily no damage.

So if anyone is thinking of doing external machining check how the two parts fit, if screwed then grind up a suitable bit so the machine can fun in forwards.

Interesting recovery of an old part BTW

Jason

bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2009, 12:44:44 PM »
Jason,

A very good point indeed.

The way I get around it is that I Loctite everything together on first assembly. I have even drilled and tapped for a locking screw as well before now.
The only bad thing about sticking things together, don't ever expect to get them apart again (without heat).

John

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2009, 02:51:06 PM »
I've really enjoyed reading this thread John, and learnt a lot (as usual), thanks  :clap:

CC

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2009, 03:47:00 AM »
I've really enjoyed reading this thread John, and learnt a lot (as usual), thanks  :clap:

CC

Me too an all..... 

Thanks John.   :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2009, 03:54:23 AM »
Bogs i dont understand car and bikes much but WOW

THat was a good bit of engineering thanks lots learnt

Gerhard
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2009, 02:02:54 PM »
Another couple of hours shop time snatched and I managed to get a fair bit done.

This bit was done the other day, but I couldn't progress any further until it was done. I had already mentioned about removing the kick start system. The last part of that job was to make up a spacer and dress the gear lever for a nice close fit to the outer case.




Now the gear lever is out of the way, I could now get the two original bits machined to a finished state.
I used the mandrel that I made the nut with, and mounted the nut onto the RT. I then centred the machine quill up to the nut spigot, using a shortened arm that I had knocked up for my centring DTI. It worked a treat, and it now allows me a little more room to play with on the mill throat depth. The Y axis was then locked up solid.




I could have made this slot using a slitting saw, but if I have the chance, I will always choose an end mill (or slot drill). Me and slitting saws just don't seem to get on well together.

By taking steady cuts in the X axis gave me a nice 3/32" slot, plus a couple of thou clearance, because invariably, the cutter cuts the slot slightly oversize.




Slot cut, now for the bit to go inside it.




This was the easiest way for me to hold the part and to guarantee that each side will be exactly 180 degs apart.
Because of the amount sticking out, I couldn't guarantee that each side to be machined would be at the same height, so I treated each side as a new cut, and touched on first then cut down the required depth. I ended up with a blade spot on 3/32" width, and exactly on centre.
I used a high speed cutter with a 1mm rad on the edge, this reduced the stress on the joint between the blade and the spindle. If it was a sharp cut edge, it would be liable to fracture at that point.




The two parts fitted together just nice, with a couple of thou running clearance. You can just see the rad produced by the cutter at the blade/shaft transition.




Again, I was stopped from continuing any further with the tacho drive because there was another repair to be carried out.
Whoever had converted this standard engine to a racing one had done a bodge job on the crankshaft.
To reduce the swept volume of the crankcase, it is standard practice to fill in the sides of the cast crank webs. They had just bodged on round ali plates. The problem was that when the engine started to reach top revs, the unsupported areas of the ali discs started to 'fly' by themselves and rub on the inside of the crankcase. So I have come up with a repair scheme.
I prised out the loose areas of disc and gave them a good clean up. Then they were given a coat on the inside, and all over the outside edges with JB Weld, a metal filled epoxy resin.
Hopefully, when that is fully cured, I will be able to machine it back and end up with a pair of well bonded in discs.




Just got to wait now before I can continue.


Bogs

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2009, 04:00:13 AM »
Progressing nicely John!  :thumbup:

David D
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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2009, 04:07:18 AM »
Nicely, but very slowly David.

I was hoping to have had this done weeks ago, but it seems that at every turn, something else crops up.

There is not much else that could rear it's ugly head, so the end is definitely in sight.


John

Offline rleete

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2009, 07:57:20 AM »
Famous last words.  Never doubt Fate's ability to interfere!
Creating scrap, one part at a time

bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2009, 11:57:39 AM »
Fate has no chance this time, I was in and done before it had got out of bed.

Once I had a few jacking screws between the two main crank discs to stop things flexing, I anchored the conrod to them with plastic coated garden wire.

I found that because the centre drillings had been damaged over the years (mechanics hammers belting on the ends), I had to locate the shafts into the rotating chuck I had made for the tailstock, and a quick spin up showed that everything was running true.
I set the lathe speed to 190 and did a series of facing cuts across the inset ali discs. Once that was all cleaned up, I set to work with emery tape and sponge blocks and cleaned off all the rust that has grown on things during the couple of years it had spent in a ditch.




After an hour or so, the finished crank emerged. Supported on the high v-blocks I had purchased the other day, I knew I would find a use for them.



Very sorry for the sudden end gents, but nothing else to do now but send everything back to it's owner.

A now happy Bogs, and hopefully, a very happy bike rider.

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2009, 12:29:37 PM »

A now happy Bogs, and hopefully, a very happy bike rider.

Great stuff John!

That`s just reminded me, from a long time ago...... "Happiness is 7,200rpm, in third".......  :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline chuck foster

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2009, 12:33:30 PM »
thanks for the write up and photos john...............it's nice to see a project through from start to finish  :thumbup: :thumbup:

chuck  :wave:
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2009, 01:19:33 PM »
Many thanks lads, glad you enjoyed it.

It wasn't really a project as such, just a mishmash of different repairs, but as long as someone gets a bit of info that might help them at some time in the future, then it was worthwhile.

I just can't wait to get the shop cleaned up, and get back onto some of my own bits and pieces. I suppose that will take me a couple of weeks.


John

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2009, 02:14:08 PM »
just a mishmash of different repairs,

But a very entertaining mishmash John, I just love the way the cranckase now looks "original", not an add on like before   :thumbup:

CC

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2009, 02:33:01 PM »
In fact I've enjoyed it so much I've just been back and read it all again  :bow: lovely work John, and, as you said earlier , helps preserve our heritage, hope your customer/pal appreciates ho much work has gone into the job  :thumbup:

CC

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2009, 03:56:17 PM »
Dave,

He has just been down to pick the bits up, he was nearly crying when he saw them.

Isn't it nice to be loved.


John

Offline dsquire

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2009, 04:05:44 PM »
John

Glad to see that he was as impressed with the work as I was. It is moments like that when you realize again how nice it feels to be appreciated. Every time he looks at that bike or shows it off he will be thinking of you and the fine excellent job that you did on the repairs. :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Good, better, best.
Never let it rest,
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Offline CrewCab

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2009, 04:33:02 PM »
He has just been down to pick the bits up, he was nearly crying when he saw them.

Well, with you doing your bit to preserve our heritage and JS planning to be reincarnated as an egg timer you'll both be making your mark for years to come ... and rightly so  :clap:

CC

Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2009, 04:50:41 PM »
Yes, very interesting to watch Bogs and a very nice result, no wonder he was pleased. :thumbup:

Now..... I have this little problem with the kick starter ratchet on my Douglas..... I was just wondering... :coffee:



(According to what I have read I will only need a little spacer which I am now well equipped to handle myself.)
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bogstandard

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2009, 05:12:11 PM »
John,

A couple of bushes and a spacer will make sure you will be bump starting it from now on. Kickstarts aren't required on a racing engine, they are just dead weight.

BTW, he has asked me to go to his shop at some time in the future and help with assembling the engine. That should be interesting, I hate working with other peoples fingers in the same pie. I think I will tell him to get the box of bits, and leave me to it, or else he is on his own.


John



Offline John Hill

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Re: Getting a tacho drive fixed on a classic racing bike
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2009, 05:30:52 PM »
John, it could be that he is seeking to learn from you.  I suggest you take your Thermos or box of beers and make sure you dont actually put your fingers on the engine,  just by watching and talking you will be able to guide him through which will avoid disaster and ensure he is a very happy chappy having 'done it himself',  that what I would do anyway.
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