Making the best of Global Warming

[Joules]

Been away from the forums for quite a while, busy playing with my peddle car and other stuff.  I put some extra solar panels up on the wife's Studio/Shed a few years back using both sides to make better use of afternoon sun.  It didn't perform as well as I had hoped especially during winter months.  Don't get me wrong it did produce, no longer needing to top up the battery during winter just to keep it alive.

So, onto Plan B (sub project 359) installing a tracker mount in our urban garden.  Not a huge amount of space and with fencing and buildings around, could be a bit challenging.

New project, start with a big hole, serves dual purpose if project goes tit's I have somewhere to bury it.  The tracker used is a commercial one from Eco Worthy, I just couldn't fabricate it for the cost !!!

Get measuring the base and work out hole positions, as it is supplied with 10mm expansion bolts for drilling into your concrete slab.   Hmmm, sod that, it needs to be able to survive earthquakes and tornadoes.

I fabricated an M12 stainless steel frame with 3D printed spacers for the whole lot to be cast in the foundation.  A template was cut for the hole pattern as the tracker base was not symmetrical (correct spelling), laser cut out of card, this being the third attempt.  It was used for spacing the holes in the 3D printed rings holding the stainless steel studding.

The actual supplied tracker mount was of course modded, to improve fit and finish plus shim for bearing surface to remove slop.  It has no quality bearings and not expected for the price, but it has room for improvement.  I am putting a smaller array than it is designed for, keeping the loading and area reduced should allow it to function longer in windy conditions.  It is supplied with sensors for tracking the sun and also monitoring wind conditions so it can go level if gusts start to pick up.   One fly in that idea is the fact it goes to an extreme location, before motoring back to level on an estimated time, not great if the wind has picked up, plus the location I would fit the anemometer would be quite shielded.  So we level it manually based on conditions and forecasts, it really produces a lot of power just looking straight up.  We don't need it tracking every day so it is lashed level with rope that also acts as shock absorber in windy conditions.

Finally got the tracker installed after wife and me mixed about 800kg of concrete in a large plastic bucket....  She's a keeper....      All the frame work above the tracker is modified from that supplied and fitted with 100W panels as they are manageable as I get older.  The added benefit of a tracker is being able to keep the panels clean and free of snow.

At last fully installed and producing power, better than I had hoped for on a bright day and installed a few weeks before the current UK heatwave.   Great, more power for tools and toys....  Uh oh, wife bought an air conditioner for the dog (long haired Shepherd)  The air con is now run off the tracker mount, both wife and dog very pleased...      Not my intended use, but hey I get to use more power outside of crazy hot days.

 

[awemawson]

That footing and bolt circle look more like the gun mounts found along the south coast for repelling unwanted  visitors in 1939-40!

[Joules]

I hadn't considered a mini gun Andrew, but now you mention it.  Keep the pigeons and other vermin at bay...

[AdeV]

Oooh, that's swish!

Might I ask where you got it from?

I should really learn to read posts properly & then I wouldn't look quite so stupid answering the question you already answered!

I'd quite fancy one of those in my garden... Also, given a sensible sunny day & not baking hot, what sort of power are you getting from it (instantaneous & over a good day)? I'm guessing you don't have any winter readings yet, given you don't live in Birkenhead  , but I think that's when the tracker will really come into its own.

BTW - that's a pretty damn competitive price sans panels... very tempting!

[vtsteam]

Wow, very nice Joules! 

Now you just need a thermoelectric panel behind the air conditioner. 

[rleete]

Doesn't it block access to the door for the shed?

[awemawson]

I hadn't considered a mini gun Andrew, but now you mention it.  Keep the pigeons and other vermin at bay...

As it happens due to an invasion of crows who eat more feed than the chicken, I'm resurrecting at the moment a propane fueled 'crow scarer'. Cunning device slowly inflates a small reservoir of propane with a diaphragm lid that lifts a mechanism that toggles and discharges the gas into the 4" diameter 24" long barrel and then clouts a piezo element sparking to fire the charge. Throtle valve controls the rate of cycling. It makes a massive bang when it fires Currently awaiting more neoprene as the diaphragm needs replacing before I put it back together.

[Joules]

You're only one step away from making a buzz bomb Andrew...

Careful measurements were taken to clear Studio and also work out best position for winter sun, based on the x8, 100W panels we have.

I am currently seeing 750W an hour for at least 4-5hrs (sunny hot day), after around 4-5kW all our batteries are full  so don't have a true
amount for how much the tracker can produce as it gets throttled back.   These last few days not even activated the tracker as it collects enough just pointing up.  I think we produced 20kw for the air con during these heatwaves.

The array is 2m x 2m to give it some scale, so not far off 20% efficient, considering our latitude.

[vtsteam]

Joules, what do you have for a battery, and what does it power?

[Joules]

We have a 12v Rolls battery that's covered by the workshop and Studio array.   That handles  fridge and freezer plus most of our IT gear.  The tracker has ended up powering our Bluetti (7.5kW total storage) power station.   That pretty much covers all kitchen appliances, microwave, the air con and any other heavy loads up to 2.5kW.   I run the lathe and mill from the Bluetti as well when we have plenty of power.   House is still grid tied as never enough in winter, but March through October the house only uses 1-2kW a day.   We don't sell back to the grid and using the Bluetti solves lots of regulation issues having solar dedicated wiring in the house.   Pretty much just electric shower and electric range cooker only loads we can't power, wife likes to bake, so well worth the power used.

The Bluetti can handle a direct feed in from the tracker and make full use of the array.  The 12V side maxes out at 600W per array, looking into moving to 24V replacing the Rolls battery. This is as much a hobby for me these days, it certainly isn't a fit and forget system.  My workshop rack is a lot of work compared to the Bluetti.  The all in one is very convenient, and portable, I would certainly say it's the way to go if you are starting from scratch.

Apologies for the awful picture of Bluetti stack, AC200L and two B300K expansion batteries.  Wife really likes this system and took to using it straight away.

[Joules]

I was very wary of spending that amount of coin on a Bluetti system  especially considering the YouTube shills promoting it.  I started  by getting an AC180 to run our winter paraffin heater and media PC.  Later got an AC50B and that now runs a Windows laptop and solid state laser cutter, by this point I was pretty impressed.  The AC50B was actually bought to replace an old APC UPS, but found it could do much more.     seems I am now a Bluetti shill....   The Bluettis can all be grid charged, or in our case, charged via an inverter from the 12V system we already had.   The big Bluetti can be charged from the tracker and a programmable limited grid supply, so it won't kill our 12v system.  Upto 750W off the tracker and 250W coming from the other system, doesn't take long to fill up, and it does pass through charging so the power coming in can go straight out to other loads.

I have already sold off a couple of generators we used to have, the AC180 replaced a portable Honda I'd kept for 30yrs+   No more storing oil and petrol, especially the bio yuck you get nowadays.

[vtsteam]

That's really interesting to me, Joules. In the 90's I lived on a houseboat that I built, and traveled 1700 miles in down the US coast and across Florida. I had a Heart Interface 1200 watt inverter, and unfortunately a small noisy Coleman generator for when the 25 hp outboard motor wasn't running and charging. Three 90 AH deep cycle 12 V batteries. I lived on that boat, off and on, for ten years. It served as a basecamp here on our land while I built our present house 25 years ago.

I would have loved to have had photocells and a more modern storage and inverter system like you have now. I did make a hot water solar collector for showers. I found that 12 V lighting and appliances were useful on the boat back then. The inverter had a charger in it so if I ever did spend the night at a marina, it would transfer switch over automatically and charge the batteries.

Now I do think about alternative power, so it's interesting to see how much more efficient your system is than anything I ever was used to. And how little space your array takes up for that amount of power. We do heat with wood (we live on 67 acres of mostly forested land) and one of my interests in Stirling engines has been with the ultimate aim of making something big that, in the frequent power outages we have could serve for some power. Although for continuous use, photocells make more sense. Both would be ideal. Actually a Stirling would make sense for CHP since we heat with wood.

I'm obviously a long way from producing usable amounts of power via a hot air engine. But I do think it's possible. Well also, I have to admit, building a big Stirling would be fascinating and fun. You have to add in the fun factor in anything, I think.

I still do have the Heart Interface inverter but it stopped working. I think the output power transistor(?s) is the problem but I am not knowledgeable enough about electronics to troubleshoot it. I can solder well enough and once built an LNW-80 computer from scratch - bare boards and ICs etc, but analyzing circuits, nope.

[Joules]

Totally agree on the fun factor.   I just added the final sensor to the tracker, its anemometer.   Pretty useless in these surroundings with buildings and fence.   However it has to be located where footballs have the slimmest  chance of finding it.  The tracker is currently set in storm mode as winds have picked up, so it is lashed.  The anemometer is barely spinning, I do a weather check in a morning before deciding to release the tracker.   It still produces a decent amount of power like this.   I did follow the New Zealand Whispergen for a good number of years, sterling CHP

Power in the UK not quite as bad as your situation, but it certainly could get that way with the state its in.   Electric companies here are worried about the number of people having off grid systems and not paying their extortionate prices for power.  We have plenty of redundancy, the tracker is a gamble to see how it performs over a year or two.   With more space it's a no brainer to go with more panels ground mounted.

We have solid fuel heating here, with Japanese paraffin heaters for colder evenings and days that don't justify the stove which does our hot water and central heating.   No hot water in the summers, been like that for 20yrs+, have a couple of Kelly Kettles we use for washing up.   Washing machine heats its water and we run it off the Bluetti.    Things have come along way since I set up a small panel in a bedroom window many years back before the roof top solar craze to see if it was worth trying.

The workshop solar has been a continuous work in progress, soon to have a major update.

[vtsteam]

I like seeing the pictures!

re.wind furling. I was thinking about self steering rigs for ocean going sailboats. In the olde days (like 70's) mechanical self-steering co-pilots used a weathervane to turn the tiller to correct the course. The problem they found was it took a fair degree of deviation from the course to apply enough power to correct the steering. Then someone figured out that instead of a vane with a vertical axis, it was much more effective and powerful to mount the vane with a horizontal axis at the bottom. When the boat turned off course, the whole vane flopped over until it was horizontal, at which point it spilled the wind-- a far greater range of motion than the correction angle of a vertically pivoted fin. These were quicker reacting and stronger as servomechanisms.

I don't know if any of that has application to your wind situation. Maybe a finned switch on a horizontal axis for operating the furling servo. Or a purely mechanical system of furling. it's too bad your present system first tries to limit in the wrong direction, but I'm sure you'll eventually make something to solve it.

[Joules]

A half circle cam with two microswitches so the controller knows it is East or West facing, then motor till both switches are zero hence level, would be nice.  I'd still be lashing it up in bad weather or leaving it unattended for any length of time,  so really it will do as is.

[AdeV]

Just looking at Eco Worthy's website again.... Their solar tracker thingybob + 6x 195W panels is coming in at a hair under 72p/watt capacity! That's bonkers! The last (and, indeed, the first...) solar panel I bought was nearly £1 a watt just for the panel alone, without any other gubbins to go with it, although that was a few years ago now. In fact, a single 195w bifacial panel is rather cheaper than the 100W monofacial panel I bought back then. Honestly, it feels like I've blinked, and the bottom's fallen out of the market!

Definitely going to be looking at one (or more, depending on garden size!) of these next year.


 

Speaking of heatwaves.... (we're not having one oop north right now!  ); I believe solar panels lose efficiency when they get hot, which is always a pain as the best sunshine usually comes with a lot of heat too...

So then I got to thinking - which is always dangerous  - in Ye Olde Days (1970s and earlier) one could have "solar panels" on the roof, but they were thermal panels, not PV. i.e. they warmed your water up... My grandparents had one on their roof for donkeys years... although unfortunately they died & the house was sold long before I got interested in this stuff.

However - I got to wondering: How hard would it be (famous last words!) to create a hybrid PV/hot water panel? i.e. make a normal thermal panel (lots of black-painted copper pipe in a think black box); but instead of putting a glass front on it; put a solar panel on it instead! Now... obviously the panel's going to eat a lot of the potential heat; but since it's going to get hot, wouldn't the thermal panel underneath suck out a lot of that heat? Which could then be used to pre-warm a tank of water - and, given that heating water is one of the most energy intense things we modern people do, wouldn't this save some energy (In summer at least!) by a) using the heat energy, and b) making the panels even more efficient than they already are?

Sadly, winter is going to be its usual problematic self, with bugger all sunshine at low angles & low temperatures limiting any available heat (and one might need to deal with freezing temperatures too)... but I do wonder if, for those hot summer days, it might be an interesting system at least?

[vtsteam]

Ade I worked for a thin film optical filter firm, and they were getting into solar cell tech at the time. I suggested something similar, except not hot water, a thermoeletric cell integrated under the photosensitive cell with a heatsink on the bottom. The thermoelectric cell works on differential temperature. Efficiency of a thermoelectric cell is lower than a photocell, but it's waste heat anyway,  it adds additional output, and the cooling of the sink helps the photocell's efficiency which drops with increased temp, so the increase could be decent.

Also since there is no water, no freezing problem, and even in winter there is a temperature differential.

No interest.

[Joules]

Ade, I can tell you at the height of the heatwave the array was most likely only 50W down on its max capacity, won't know till a bright sunny cold day for sure.  I use a thermal camera to survey the panels during the day, it is also used on all wiring and equipment to watch for issues.  Picture attached was the hottest day we had and actually had a fuse holder melt on the workshop rack for another device.

We still generate power on overcast days, might only be 10% of the arrays power, but every little helps keep grid charging at bay.   We bank power using the storage and try to use what we have if we know we can get more over the next few days.  Can be a tricky balancing act but we gradually got a system that works during the winter.  Quite often after snow and you get a sunny day, clean the panels as quick as possible as reflected light gets bounced back strongly by a bit of cloud or even the snow itself.  It probably helps that it's just the Mrs, me and the dog and we don't own a TV, so no constant drain on our system.  We use RV fridge and freezer, that help rotate food more quickly, but also means we can move them into the conservatory where it's cold in the winter so their energy demand goes way down.   No worries in summer as we usually have way more power than they need, but we move them into the kitchen where it's shaded.

[Joules]

Ade, hang on till after the winter storms before deciding on a tracker, see how mine copes.   Eco Worthy US have a larger tracker option, anyone’s guess if it will make it to UK store.   You also need to provide a 12V supply at the tracker, could be a battery but would likely need another small panel to keep it charged.   Plenty of YouTube vids on these trackers.

[AdeV]

Ade, hang on till after the winter storms before deciding on a tracker, see how mine copes.

  

Eco Worthy US have a larger tracker option, anyone’s guess if it will make it to UK store.   You also need to provide a 12V supply at the tracker, could be a battery but would likely need another small panel to keep it charged.   Plenty of YouTube vids on these trackers.

Fortunately, I already have a 12V panel  It's nigh on 20 years old, but has spent most of its time in the box indoors, waiting for me to play with it....

Hoping to move to a new house late this year/next year - I'd like to coat the roof with solar, have some big ass batteries to store the power, and maybe a tracker or two depending on funds/motivation/etc. If I can grab enough energy to keep my car charged up over the summer, and to help a bit in the winter, I'll be well happy.

[BillTodd]

I've been experimenting with a couple of panels and cheap LA batteries for a couple of years now.
It's  currently running my network and freezer (using just over a kWh a day) . I have to split them east & west either side of my roof.

The intention was to see if a cheap dc system could pay for itself in a reasonable time period , which it probably wiill in another year .

However,  based on my low electricity usage and the difficulty of using it to capacity,  I can't  see hard nosed economic argument to keep it nor expand it , even I buy an EV (other than my bikes)  and cover the roofs in panels  . I simply don't have long enough live 

I think anyone thinking about PV as an investment needs to do their sums ... carefully.

[vtsteam]

What are panels going for these days per watt?

[BillTodd]

What are panels going for these days per watt?

I bought  second hand solar farm panels which works out to be £0.25/w . New more efficient  panels  seem to be nearer £1\w

Biggest problem in east England is average generation of 17 to 20w/m2 (annual  mean) and the end of the lucrative feedin tariffs (peaking around 42p/kWh and now more typically 5p)

Using all the available power is important to maximise returns, with EV charging being good because it replaces expensive petrol.

[Joules]

Huge variation  in prices Steve, I used Renogy 100W panels, in my case they are a manageable size costing about £69.00 per panel.   However I could have bought 440W Jinko panels for £68.00 so about £0.155 per watt.  For me the panels are too large and heavy to handle on my own, but that cost per watt !!!  They also wouldn't have provided the higher voltage I wanted as my Renogy panels are 4 in series then parallel with the other 4, making best use of my charge controller or in this case the Bluetti built in one.

Ade, rain dropped temperature here and sun just came out, our 800W array just peaked at 850W, so I was 100W down during heatwave.

Bill, interesting take on your view, I never saw this as an investment but something that interests me.   As Steve Jobs book title "The journey is the reward"  It also helps I have great support from my wife, who was in engineering.

[BillTodd]

Hi Joules, yes I fully understand the enjoyment value (being able to stick two fingers up to the power company is priceless)  .

I just think it important not to be fooled by the lure of 'free' power  (I know a couple of people that fall into the category!) 

And I get a kick out of crunching numbers  ...

[Joules]

  I can sell you some over unity extension leads that plug into themselves, you only need plug it in once for free power......  50% of your money back if not totally satisfied....

[vtsteam]

Another nice thing about generating your own is when there are power outages. Around my rural area, trees falling on power lines interrupts power 3 to 5 times a year.

When I lived on the houseboat, I was at a country marina dock one night in Florida, plugged into shore power, and the power must have stopped. I didn't notice because the automatic transfer switch worked instantly, and was very quiet. I only realized the power was out when I went up on deck. The marina was dark and also the big city glow that normally flooded the horizon at night was gone. My boat was lit up like Christmas tree, and the music was still playing. Nice being the only one left in civilization-- that was the feeling.

[vtsteam]

I think we're paying about $0.16/kWh and using about 800 kWh/mo. Varies summer to winter.

We do have electric hot water which accounts for a lot of that I bet. Solar assisted hot water would make sense for us. We don't have air conditioning.

[Joules]

Be interesting to hear what other peoples monthly consumption is.

We run/ran a max of about 160kW a month during winter and now around 40kW average during summer.  We shall see what the tracker contributes this winter. 

We have a daily standing charge of £0.50 and about £0.28 per kW, the standing charge often more than the power we use.   No dual fuel discount as our gas supply was capped years ago, saving us the daily gas standing charge.   We are not expecting electricity cost to drop realistically  The air con unit we run really needs to be grid powered for longevity of its compressor.   Happy to accept that as we make good savings elsewhere.   Our way of life is more demanding physically and both heating and power require far more interaction than the average push button household.  It quickly became a normal daily chore, no different from our grandparents.

Just wait a few years when we look back at this thread, how cheap electricity was 😆

[Joules]

I suppose a lot of this stems from being self employed, not having a stable regular income for the last 20+ yrs.  We have always valued independence, solid fuel heating, buy fuel through the year, no big surprises during the winter and easy to self maintain.  I've been accused of being a pepper without ever knowing it.   Well it just seems sensible to have winter provisions and a workshop to fix what needs fixing.  Battery storage, how else you going to do stuff when the power is out.  Live this style of life, so it's normal in a crisis, you certainly don't have time to be bored.

[vtsteam]

I like your philosophy Joules. I actually subscribe to it myself, though obviously with much less success! I want to look at our actual usage bills to get a more accurate picture. I was going from memory above.

[Joules]

Steve, going back to your houseboat.  Around year 2000 our lives here took a massive wobble, life events, careers ending.   We had to prepare for loosing the house, I had been visiting canal boats for sale in a worst case scenario, even bought a frame generator for doing a fit out.   At its darkest we got a chink of light, wife got work I risked the remaining money I had on getting the workshop built and fitted out, the rest was a steady climb, with rock falls from there.

[vtsteam]

Joules, I'm glad you weathered that and came back to where you are now. it certainly does make one appreciative of being as close to independent as possible. And to simplification in living. Not that there aren't pleasures in doing those things beyond just feeling more secure. Of course life on a boat can be interesting in itself. But maybe not because it seems the only alternative. One doesn't want to be forced onto the water, when land is the preference!

I got ahold of our power usage statement and I don't mind sharing it here, if it's of interest. Our usage is better than I wrote earlier, by about half, so I don't feel quite as bad. Still it could be improved. Actual cost/kWh is now $0.20, with 22% additional in various fees added on.

I'm really surprised at what the peak months and minimum months are. Wow, April is our worst month??? October the best???  And the range is very pronounced 260 kWh to 660 kWh. There's probably a lot to learn here!

  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  

[Joules]

Thanks Steve, wish I could say our bills are 10% of yours because our property was 10% the size 

Interesting to note you are 9 degrees lower latitude than us, but approximately 200 miles inland to our 60 miles.  So very different climates before we consider anything else.   Can't see I can offer much advice without being incredibly nosey on your setup.   Solar hot water sounds a good start for you, wife would have liked us to fit that a few years back.  My friend who lives about 20 miles north fitted a vacuum tube system and been pleased with the results he gets.

Have you finished your winter prep by October ?

I use a few Sonoff power monitoring plugs that log power consumption.  Very handy for figuring out who is taking power when.

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/sonoff-wifi-smart-plug?variant=54923434066299

They are also useful for working out which power bank can power what and for how long.   Even recording how much power you put back into a power bank to work out efficiency.

[vtsteam]

After thinking it over I think I get the unusually high peaks in the early spring and late summer months this year. I realized the gray bars are the prior year levels, and the orange this year's.

In fact we did borrow a compact window air conditioner last year for a couple months from my wife's parents -- we don 't normally. That would explain July August.

And, gulp, this year I did spend a lot of time out in the shop from january through spring with an electric heater working on the Stirling engine. and I might have also forgotten to turn it off overnight a few times.  .

It's good to see graphically the effects of one's actions.

I'm going to concentrate on the shop, I guess as a priority. It's kind of essential to be able to use it in winter here, or cabin fever will get me. It could be a lot better.

Oh, what about October? Well my daughter went away to college in September. That must certainly be the explanation......

[vtsteam]

Oh in answer to your other question, I do have two Kill-A-Watts, but they aren't remote sensing meters like yours.

I just got a handheld thermal imager, ostensibly to look at heat gradients in regnerators in my Stirling experiments, but the selling point at home was looking at the heat losses in our house.

And the shop.

[vtsteam]

Well speak of the devil.... our power just went out.

Started up the old Indian Lister clone generator. Hand cranked to start. Two 24" flywheels.

Lights back, cooking dinner, router powered up, back online.

Soothing sound, putt, putt at 600 rpm in the distance instead of a 3600 rpm racket maker.

[Joules]

Nice choice of the Lister clone Steve, I used to be in contact with Ken Boak many years back.  He used to be a UK guru on Lister CHP use.  I still have a Petter AVA1 and alternator under a tarp that has to go at some time.   It was part of a design project I got roped into 😅 during the "Great Veg Oil Rush"  All the new stuff has pretty much made those ideas obsolete now, allowing silent running.

Thanks for the power revelations Steve  once my ribs stopped hurting I could see scope for you saving a wee bit of power 🤣

[vtsteam]

Ken Boak, that's a familiar name to me. Wasn't he experimenting with Manson type open cycle hot air engines? And maybe transferators? I think he's also in a book I have about hot air engines.

I have been reading and collecting information about hot air engines for 23 years now. I'm sure I'd have had a lot more contacts and friends with similar interests if I lived in GB. I've got Model Engineers collected in stacks and boxes, and I go through them once every few years. I don't know anyone here who has similar interests to mine. Most people I know don't even know what a metal lathe is. If I mention I built one from scratch when people ask what I do these days, they say, that's nice, and move on to the weather. 

[Joules]

You certainly fit the mold Steve for eccentric English engineer.  Ken was very much into gasification when we last conversed,  he was spending quite a bit of time in the States working on gasifiers and digital control systems for them.  Lethal bits of kit  producing vast quantities of carbon monoxide, the idea was to use the gas they produced to power the engines like they did in Sweden for cars during WWII.

Sad how our engineering skills have declined, there was a time your average schoolboy had a good working knowledge of IED's often curtosy of the local vicar who made his own fireworks.   Plumbing pipe and fittings being so cheap back then, as well as the availability of Jetex fuse for the model rocket engines.   I guess that explains why we had so many good engineers, the less skilled ones were sorted at an early age 

Oh, I still get the weather comments when asked what I do, that or OMG....

[Joules]

I come from a long line of lunatics.   My grandfather was in the Royal Engineers, a knack for working out the quickest disassembly method using the minimum amount of explosive 

[vtsteam]

I'm familiar with the Imbert etc gasifiers, and am not an enthusiast. Same for veggie diesel, though a little more sympathetic if the resource is plentiful and available. I was once roped in (as you say) to a veggie oil CHP scheme to produce power commercially. Well not roped in so much as offered a lot of money (to me) to design a couple megawatt plant for supplying a local yogurt company. My first question before I accepted the job was, where are you going to get the oil and how much will it cost? "Oh don't you worry about that, um Canada, we are working on that part of it, your job is just to come up with a plan, equipment, costs, etc." So I eased on in, with some trepidation, but I did need the money. A year later, when I had all of the plans, all of the costs to build, had worked out hourly demand schedules, maintenance costs, etc for the big final presentation, I asked again, what are the oil sources, and what is the cost per gallon so I can give final figures. "Oh, we're going to have that shortly, can you just leave that part out?" This time I said no. "Please, it's coming. We're finalizing..." No, I need those figures now.

Well of course they didn't have anything. The best they could come up with was inadequate supply at a staggering price. Something that seemed obvious from the start. I was paid all along, no hard feelings towards me, my plans and cost figures were considered very complete, but the two "oil" guys who'd promoted the whole idea got the hairy eyeball at that last meeting. Oddly enough the principal never fired them, and they continue to this day planning useless stuff. It's a wonder to me!

That engineer stuff you're talking about.....that sounds like fun!