Author Topic: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!  (Read 48488 times)

Offline John Hill

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The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« on: June 30, 2009, 06:25:10 PM »
Just a concept so far:



Although Paint has to be among the best programs ever offered by Microsoft (it just does what it is supposed to do and does not try to take over your life) it does have some deficiences when used as a CAD program! ::)

The engine,  it is a single acting steam or air engine with piston valving, it is not reversable but it should have good efficiency and be able to make good use of expansion of the steam or compressed air, I doubt it would run well on low pressure air but it should be economical on the use of steam or air. In elecrical terms it would be a high impedance engine!


The piston is a hollow cylinder closed at the rear/bottom and moves inside a cylinder which incorporates a fixed displacer so that when the piston is TDC the internal volume is a low as possible.  The piston has clearance around the displacer, this clearance is a trade off between minimum TDC volume and friction of internal air/steam flow.  The effective diameter of the piston is the full diameter.  

The engine has an  air/steam input port on one side and exhaust port on the other.  The location of the ports coincides with the inner limit of the displacer.

Holes in the sleeve part of the piston pass by the ports and so provide the valving action.

The big end bearing is mounted at an angle to the crank pin and is connected to the connecting rod via a pivot, the connecting rod is connected to the piston by a universal joint.

As the crank rotates the angled big end bearing acts as a swash plate and causes the connecting rod and hence the piston to partially rotate.  This rotation, which reverses each half crank revolution, means the path followed by the piston ports is different  on the up and down strokes and gives scope for setting the port timing for desired operating characteristics.

In this engine, being single acting I have designed the port openings to be inlet open from TDC till some yet-undetermined angle and for exhaust to be open for most of the up stroke. I dont believe such asymetric valve timing can be achieved in other simple designs such as the oscillator engines.  

To actually fix the position of the piston ports I intend assembling the engine including the ports in the cylinder then marking with a felt pen or something through the cylinder ports as the crank is rotated, I will then take the piston out and drill the piston ports.  The exhaust port will be a series of holes or a slot (depending on how clever I feel on that day) while the inlet port will likely be just a single hole.  If I find the minimum air pressure to run is too high I will elongate the inlet port in the piston somewhat to get a longer input opening duration.

There is another engine design on-line with a semi-rotating piston but I am unsure if it has symetrical valve timing and uses a different method to control piston movement.


I have started to make the cylinder and to gather the bits, it will not be a tiny model as there is a limit as to how small I can make the big end bearing and  besides I dont intend making it too hard as a first project by trying to work in tiny size.



Ah yes, nearly forgot,  'nutation' is the motion a coin takes when spun on the table and also the motion of a planet which wobbles on its axis (which the Earth does due to tidal effects).  This engine has a nutating big end!
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Offline Darren

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 06:35:30 PM »
This will be an interesting one to follow John, I do like horizontals... :thumbup:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2009, 04:10:52 AM »
This evening's progress:



On the left is the cylinder and next to it is the displacer which also forms the cylinder head.  Next comes the sleeve and finally the piston proper.

The piston is by no means finished, I need to turn about half of it away and form the universal joint for attaching to the connecting rod.

I made these bits out of a piece of an old office chair and some thick wall water pipe.

The piston and cylinder look very long because the form of valving requires the parts to be about twice the length of the stroke.  The cylinder bore is 23mm and the stroke 40mm.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 04:35:03 AM by John Hill »
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2009, 02:56:21 PM »
Hey John!

This one is gonna be interesting to watch. Looking forward to it.

For CAD, you can't beat Johns CoC!... However, there are a couple of free options out there you could try. Google sketchup and the free version of Alibre are both good.

Eric
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2009, 03:32:20 PM »
Hi John

Nice start,  the designs got me a bit baffled  :scratch:  is it a stirling engine ?

Looking forward to seeing it develop.  :thumbup:

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2009, 06:13:14 PM »
Thanks Eric.

No Stew, it is not a Stirling,  it is a single acting steam(or compressed air) engine.  What makes it different is the sleeve extension to the piston that does the port action and the partial rotation of the piston that allows the up stroke port duration to be different to the down stroke port duration.
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2009, 09:21:50 PM »
Today is Saturday in God's Own Country and I have done my chores and duties for the day, it is a little wet outdoors so into the garage I will go.

The challenge today is to get the design fixed and a start made on the wobbling-big-end, just how does one turn a 'Z' shaped shaft and get a bearing slid onto it? :scratch:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 01:53:55 AM »
Progress with the wonky big end!



The selected bearing and the crank pin material, as you can see the bearing bore is much bigger diameter pin and measuring with my little protractor I found the axis of the bearing could be tilted to an angle of about 15 degrees with respect to the pin axis.



A bit of scrap steel about twice the diameter of the bearing bore mounted in my new vertical slide and angled 15 degrees to the lathe centreline.  While it is mounted in there I will chop the end to the angle using a fly cutter then drill a hole into the end at the 15 degree angle until it comes out the other side of the shaft.



Testing the crank pin in the drilled shaft, it is a tight fit so I didnt try to force it right through.




The shaft goes back in the lathe and is turned down to size of the bearing bore.



And there we have it!  The bearing is fitted to the crank pin at a 15 degree angle, all it needs is a little careful work with the hacksaw to remove the excess.


With the bearing mounted at 15 degrees I will have almost 30 degrees of rotation of the piston/sleeve which I hope will be enough, more would be better though.

So far everything is a nice friction fit which is good as I dont want to be trying to silver solder and cooking the bearing.
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 02:16:35 AM »
Well done so far John!  :thumbup:

I think I understand it........ Maybe......  :scratch:

Watching with great interest......  :wave:

David D

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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2009, 04:56:27 AM »
This really intrieging me John.

Watching with great interest.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 03:51:43 AM »
Haha!  Bet you all thought I had given up on this project and thrown the bits under the bench eh?  Well no, (not yet anyway).


Here are all the internal bits!  From the left, cylinder, displacer/cylinder head, connecting rod with part of the 'small end' already attached, a couple of pins for the small end universal joint, the piston, piston sleeve, components of the big end universal and finally the wonky bearing on the crank pin.





Piston, connecting rod and the big end all assembled, yes the crank pin is supposed to be on an angle like that!
In the background is the cylinder with head in place.

Still to make, crank webs, crank case, flywheels and something to hold it all together.
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Offline Darren

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 04:14:25 AM »
Well you might have got it David but I'm still in the dark on this one  :scratch:

Watching this one with interest John.... :dremel:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 04:26:24 AM »
Darren,
You might not have got it, and you might think I`ve got it..... (That`s if I`m the correct David)......  :scratch:

I`m not sure..... Of either.....  ::)

 :thumbup:

David D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 04:28:42 AM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 05:02:33 AM »
Relax guys, I am not sure I have "got it" either! :coffee:

It will be very important for there to be no lost motion in either end of the connecting rod and I am having some difficulty working on such small bits. (I might have to pike out and consider commercial universal joints.)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 05:04:21 AM by John Hill »
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2009, 03:40:21 AM »


Revised wonky bearing,  I was afraid I would not have enough rotation of the piston to get reliable port action so after searching the bearing department I found this one hiding in an ancient photo copier, it has a much bigger bore though same outer diameter as the previous bearing..  It allows about 33 degrees of wobble.  Discounting slack in the universal joints that will be 66 degrees of piston rotation which should be much better than the previous bearing.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 03:41:55 AM by John Hill »
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2009, 05:34:42 AM »


Tough yakka!  Making the side frames, 5mm steel plate,  chain drillings, cold chisel, file,  lots of file!

(Both sides will stay rivetted together until I get to the finishing stage that way I hope they will have at least a partial resemblance to each other!)
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2009, 05:21:18 AM »
On to the next stage, I am milling the side frames after getting them near to shape by manual means.

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2009, 06:25:26 AM »
It looks like you are getting the hang of that vertical slide John.

It does seem to be a rather good one, nice and robust. I see it can rotate about the spindle axis, does it also swing around the crosslide mount as well?, and have you found any major limitations with it yet?

By the look of it, the vice area is the weak point. Another mod coming soon maybe?

John

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2009, 09:44:04 PM »
John, I am very pleased with the vertical slide and it does seem to be at least as robust as any other part of my machinery!

The gibs are rather tight at one end of the travel which I may have to slacken a little if it does not ease up a bit.

The vice arrangement is indeed a frustration to me as I have not yet determined how to mount anything better to it without excessive overhang.

Yes it has both horizontal and vertical axis of rotation.

Apart from the vice, which I am sure I will eventualy figure out an improvement for there are a couple of limitations and the most obvious is that the slide being mounted on the compound mount position can not be moved very far back behind the spindle centreline thereby considerably limiting the size of workpiece that can be handled.

The other frustration is that visibility is extremely poor while that b&**%$ safety guard is over the chuck position!  Much as it goes against the grain to remove safety equipment I fear an exception will soon be made in this regard!

I have managed to avoid climb milling incidents, so far, but doing so does tax the ancient gray matter somewhat.

I am using 380rpm spindle speed, does that sound about right for a mill cutter in mild steel?  The 16mm one really makes the whole machine shudder if I get too enthuisiastic with the feed.


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bogstandard

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2009, 11:23:50 PM »
You have asked an unanswerable question there John, I am sorry to say.

Feeds and speeds are chartable items, but only under ideal conditions. I think any machinist with a bit of experience will tell you the same thing, they are for rough guidance only.

In your situation, where you have so many non standard and variable items, you are going to have to do it by the seat of your pants and feel, plus the most important one, sound. The setup should tell you if it is struggling to do the cut, if everything sounds smooth and with very little vibration, you are not far out in your cutting technique.

If it was me, I would tend to go with fast speed and very fine feed. OK it will take a lot longer to get rid of the material, but hopefully, you won't be setting up any uneccessary vibrations in basically an unstable setup, which is what you have. The plus side is that you should also end up with a lot fewer machining marks.

I thought the vice would be your PITA.

Your problem is that to machine it up, you are going to have to use the vertical slide itself.
Normally, the front vice bit is removeable, leaving you will just a flat plate to mount whatever fixtures and fittings you want onto it.

Your choice is to modify what you have, to allow you to do more stable setups, or wack the whole lot off, and get back to a plain face, then treat it as a normal milling table. You can obtain very small low profile machine vices, and tiny rotary tables, at a price, which would completely open up the world of machining to you.
But you've got to keep that overhang as small as possible, to help reduce the vibrations.

John

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2009, 11:56:08 PM »
Thanks John,  fast speed and fine feed. :thumbup:  I did the sums and my FPM rate is only about 19 metres per minute whereas online charts seem to recommend 30 metres or more per minute.

I suppose if I really,really, took the plunge I could get those lugs off the vice using angle grinder, hacksaw and a bit of time and I could finish the face in the lathe, or even on the little shaper.   Then I would have a flat vertical face that I could tap for holding clamps or mounting a real vice.  I am just too chicken, thats all! :D
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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2009, 12:22:48 AM »
That decision has to be yours and yours alone John.

If I modify something, I try to do it in such a way, it can be restored to its original use and purpose. In your case, that is difficult to do. It is taking that one step beyond, to a non revertable position that is the problem.

Once you reach that stage, it will cost even more cash, which at the moment I think you are lacking.

Do what you think is right, and only take the final plunge when you are definitely ready for it.

John

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2009, 03:51:21 AM »
Meanwhile:-



Sally Shaper reduces the thickness of the side frames. I think I can confidently claim that those are real shavings you can see there!





Looking good, but not 'mirror finish'.


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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2009, 03:55:32 AM »
John, if, when I decide to modify the slide I will be going to find someone with a bandsaw who can take those lugs off neatly.  Hacking into it with hand tools might lead to a terrible mess! :doh:

There is, I think, enough meat there to put in a 'T' slot or two  though it might be safer just to drill and tap a matrix of holes.  To be decided.

(Cash is not really a problem but I do have to set priorities!  :coffee:)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 03:57:19 AM by John Hill »
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2009, 09:01:46 AM »
John

Just to give you another option with that slide rather than kill the existing slide off by cutting bits off it make a new slide by the looks of the pic just a plain chunk of steel would do the trick with the dovetail machined in by sally shaper it looks very doable.


Have fun

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Bernd

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2009, 09:49:04 AM »
Doesn't need a mirror finish to look good.

Nice to see somebody using a shaper instead of a mill (which you don't have) to make a part.

Wish I had a small shaper like that. It would round out my machine stable nicely.

Keep up the good work John. :thumbup:

Bernd
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Offline dsquire

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2009, 01:27:52 PM »
John

Nice Job and great to see another way to "skin the cat". Looking forward to seeing more of Sally the Shaper at work.  :ddb: :ddb:

cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline Darren

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2009, 03:18:29 PM »
Did I ever mention I like shapers......

I'll get me coat...... :ddb:

Nice work there John, looks like it's coming along..... :thumbup:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2009, 04:47:55 PM »
Darren, you are quite right to treat your shaper with respect,  Sally showed her true colours by developing a fault in here off/on switch. I turned her off and was just putting the key on the tool clamp when she started again!

That will have to be fixed or I will loose a finger or two!
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Offline Darren

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2009, 05:14:16 PM »
ooh, that could be nasty John, better get her seen to pronto.... :dremel:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2009, 05:09:29 PM »
John,

This is a bit  :offtopic: , and it refers to your earlier posts about holding work on your vertical slide.

I have just put an answer on another website, and immediately thought of your problem.

If you go down the page on here,

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathe-Accessories

You will come to C3 Milling Sub-Table. I think that might be your solution in the short term. Either mount a bar on the back and hold it in the 'vice', or drill straight into the 'vice' jaws and bolt it on.

Get the plate mounted up first, then use the lathe to square up the plate and drill all the holes. Then it would just be a matter of knocking up a few clamps and fences.

Just a thought.

John

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2009, 03:54:31 AM »
Excellent Bogs! :thumbup:  I could certainly manage to make something like that! Meanwhile I have coaxed Sally Shaper to take the lugs off the sides of a little machine vice with now fits entirely inside the jaws of the slide.  At least I can now mill small parts without too much hassle.
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2009, 04:10:27 AM »
The Artful Bodger makes a flywheel.





















...Were words necessary?
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2009, 04:13:21 AM »
NO!!!  :bugeye: :thumbup:

Blummin well shown! :clap:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Bernd

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2009, 10:33:38 AM »
NO words were not needed. If they were it would have been a 10,000 word post.

I like the way you riveted the flywheel to that shaft.  :thumbup:

Bernd
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2009, 11:31:44 AM »
Cracking job John  :thumbup:

Well done

Stew


A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2009, 12:05:01 PM »
Pretty cool John. Pictures described well enough I believe.

Eric
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Offline CrewCab

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2009, 12:11:58 PM »
I like the way you riveted the flywheel to that shaft.  :thumbup:

Now I've regained the plot  :bow: ............... Nicely bodged Mr Hill  :clap:

CC

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2009, 03:06:22 PM »
Thank you for kind words! :med:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2009, 03:41:48 AM »
Progress is rather slow but a bit got done today!


These are the crank webs being drilled,  a piece of angle iron from the junk pile was cleaned up on the shaper and made a nice angle bracket that I do not mind drilling holes in!





All the moving bits seem to fit together!  There will be quite a bit of Loctite or super glue to hold it all together,  silver solder would be ideal but I dont have the torch right now and besides I dont want to cook the bearing.

Next, finish the frame, mount the bits then make the inlet and exhaust ports!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 04:14:22 AM by John Hill »
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2009, 04:24:11 AM »
Coming together nicely John:-

I've still no idea how it work  :scratch: but all will be revealed in time no doubt.

Have fun

Stew
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Offline Stefan Pynappels

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2009, 02:35:14 PM »
I think it is becoming a little clearer how this works, but I'm not going to say anything until I see it running so I don't look stupid!
Pretty ingenious though if my thoughts are correct.

Stef.

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2009, 05:10:28 PM »
Stef, Stew, you are not the only ones eagerly anticipating when it might work as I am not even really sure myself!

Other priorities right now but work continues, slowly, on the frame.
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2009, 04:11:09 AM »


The crankshaft was assembled today for what may be the final time!  I used the lathe chucks to ensure parts were in close alignment before pressing them together.

No solder of screwed mounts, just a close fit,  super glue and fingers crossed.
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bogstandard

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2009, 04:33:18 AM »
John,

Personally, I don't think superglue will hold it, especially as the pins are a tight fit. Because it would have been squeezed out of the joint anyway and just sat on the surface, doing nothing to hold the joint together. You will be relying on the fit of the pins in the holes to do the intended job.
Superglue has no strength at all in the operation you are trying to carry out. It is OK for sticking broken cups together, but not as an engineering adhesive. Unless of course you have managed to obtain some of the very hi tech two part stuff, that can take the place of welds.

Even Loctite has to have a working gap to work.

If I need to use adhesive and a tight fit at the same time. I always oversize the hole a minute amount and put a straight knurl on the ends of the rod to expand the rod to make it a tight fit in the hole. Even a light knurl will expand a rod a few thou, the deeper the knurl, the larger the rod 'grows'.
Then with Loctite on the knurl, some is automatically taken down into the hole in the tiny knurl gaps, ready to do it's job.

Bringer of bad news Bogs.

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2009, 04:52:07 AM »
Not bad news at all John, what I dread is having it all assembled then being unable to get it apart again!  Super glue was chosen after our discussion here about boiling water etc etc.

The joints are not really all that tight in fact a couple I had to tighten up a little by putting dot punch marks on the shaft,  I know that about knurling and used it only yesterday on another little job but I thought it might have been impossible on such small shafts, my knurler is one of those 'push against' rather than 'pinch me' style fandangles.

There will be much rejoicing if it actually runs long enough to shake itself to bits at which time I will be looking for the more appropriate fixative!

Oh, I must take you to task for your comment regarding broken cups, it is not OK for sticking broken cups together as in that application it much prefers to stick crockery to fingers etc!

Thanks for your comments John.
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bogstandard

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2009, 06:18:31 AM »
Sorry about that, but it is better to be informed than ignorant (I am no way implying you are).

Actually the only time I use my scissor knurl is when doing small shafts, it hasn't got the grunt to be able to knurl bigger stuff.

Quote
it is not OK for sticking broken cups together as in that application it much prefers to stick crockery to fingers etc!

Instant, but fragile castanets

John

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2009, 04:05:58 PM »
Bogs, in the field of model engineering, in fact metal working in general, you have my permission to consider me as woefully ignorant! :beer:

I sort of have it all together right now though the frame is clamped together with a big bolt and the cylinder is held in place with magnets.  The nutation effect is actually better than I expected but there is a lot of friction which I hope is due to no ports having been cut yet.

No play today, work all day then going out this evening. :coffee:
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Offline rleete

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2009, 04:17:31 PM »
What about pinning it together?  Use spring pins for the testing, and it you leave them a bit long you can pull them out.

After testing/fitting/tweaking, you can replace them with press fit brass pins.
Creating scrap, one part at a time

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2009, 05:23:27 PM »
Good point Rleete, I will bear that in mind when I come to fixing the flywheel(s). :thumbup:
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bogstandard

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2009, 01:59:48 AM »
John,

I know it can be very difficult when you start to learn a completely new discipline.

I think your best bet would be to try to obtain some engineering adhesives rather than relying on what adhesives you already know about.

I buy a Loctite clone high strength engineering adhesive, about half the price of normal Loctite, at about 12 squid for a medium sized bottle. You only use it in drops, and it lasts me a couple of years at least. In fact most times it goes well out of date before the bottle is empty.

I also have two smaller bottles, about a fiver each, one is for high strength fits with up to 0.25mm (0.010") gaps, and the other is a bearing fit. These two are the ones that can really get you out of a fix, but not used as often as the above. The gap filler one is much thicker than the other two, so it stays where it is put. They all work on the principle of setting when there is no air present, so when they come, the bottles are only half full, they don't go off when they have plenty of space around them.

Those three take care of almost any job I am liable to encounter.

They do take up to 24 hours to reach max strength, but they are really well worth having in your arsenal.

John

Offline sbwhart

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2009, 02:14:33 AM »
John

Thats good advice from Bogs, I've had a lot of experience with industrial adhesives and used in the right place they do a great job use them in the wrong place or in the wrong way and your in trouble, hence people shy away from them. Just to give you an idea of how good they can be if used correctly, its now common practice to fasten Full size loco wheels to the axles using high strength loctite.

If you google loctite there some good info there about how to use there product.

Have fun

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2009, 04:05:26 PM »
Thanks, all good advice and well noted chaps but I think I will be sticking with the super glue until I see that my concept is valid as I do want to be able to drop it in boiling water if necessary to dismantle and remake any bits.

Right now even the frame is glued together but thats only until I can double check the geometry for the port openings, such cylindrical, three dimensional, hyper-whatsit solutions I find to be unachievable by the calculation method.


Meanwhile my Swedish blowlamp is soaking in thinners and may be usable again soon which should serve admirably to pre-heat the bits for soldering in the final assembly of the frame.


« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:08:37 PM by John Hill »
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Offline NickG

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2009, 06:18:51 PM »
John,

Just been able to look at your pics on this thread as haven't had internet at home until today due to moving house (pics won't show at work from your host). Looks a very intriguing project and will continue to follow it.
Great work!

Nick
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Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2009, 02:19:22 AM »
All the bits together in one place at last!





But not finished yet, I still have to make the port openings.  First step use a felt pen to mark the piston skirt......



... so I put the pen in the exhaust port and turned the engine through one revolution.  This is what I got on the piston skirt..



.... and there we have it!  A nice oblate shape  showing clearly that ports can be cut that will be open on the inlet stroke and closed on the exhaust (and vice versa)  which is exactly what is required.
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bogstandard

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2009, 05:24:34 AM »
Very ingenious thoughts and ways of doing things John, and you are showing that you are not the simpleton you make yourself out to be.

I can't wait to see how this is going to turn out.

They are having a bit of a discusssion over on the 'other site' about sleeve valve engines, which is 180 degrees out from what you are doing, rotating the cylinder instead of the piston to obtain port timing.

This might be a bit of an interesting read for you. I have a friend who has one of the horizontal versions, very compact and innovative. Lots of easily understood principles are shown the deeper you search.

http://www.rcvengines.com/


John

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2009, 05:25:26 PM »
John,  OK the idea was original to me but I am not the first to think of it!  I found reference to an engine in a museum somewhere c1878 which by the description operates on a similar principle except the piston was rotated by some sort of cam and lever.  There is a current oscillating piston model  steam/air engine online which gets the rotation via a 90 degree lever connection to the crank.  So far as I have found mine is the only one where the piston motion is controlled by the wonky big end.

The designs that use ports in the piston itself require a rather heavy piston which would have to be solid for the length of the stroke whereas mine uses a minimum weight piston and an attached sleeve that works in a space in the upper cylinder formed by the outer cylinder and a 'displacer' which is a loose fit inside the piston sleeve.  That form of sleeve-in-head is not original as the Junkers diesel aircraft engines of WWII used the same arrangement.  I believe some sleeve valve cars used the same thing where it was called a 'junk head'.

Rotating the sleeve independant of the piston is essential for four stroke operation (as far as I can see).

Obviously I am however not as smart as I thought as examination of my engine as it is so far has shown that the cylinder is too short and the piston ports would be exposed at the bottom of the stroke! :doh:  Oh dear, another 3 inches of water pipe will have to go in the lathe!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 05:28:25 PM by John Hill »
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Offline Darren

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2009, 06:10:33 PM »
Oh dear, another 3 inches of water pipe will have to go in the lathe!

Otherwise known as R&D, perfectly normal chain of events..... :thumbup:

It's looking good btw.... :clap:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline John Hill

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2009, 03:54:49 AM »


Exhaust ports drilled in the piston sleeve,  I had intended to cut a slot until at the last moment I remembered this is just cold rolled pipe and with unknown internal stresses I might have lost the shape by cutting too much out, so a row of holes it is.   The inlet port is the same sort of thing on the other side of the sleeve but there are only 3 or 4 holes.



All complete, and it runs.....

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Yes, yes, I know a video would be nice but no camera right now..
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 03:59:11 AM by John Hill »
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2009, 04:04:23 AM »
It RUNS!!!  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Blummin well done John!  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline spuddevans

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2009, 08:50:17 AM »
You have a winner!! Runner!!  :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:

It's a wonderful feeling when you get even a simple wobbler running, so you must have even more joy with the level of complexity in this one  :thumbup:

Well done !!
Tim
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Offline Bernd

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2009, 08:50:57 AM »
Nice job Dave.

Really would love to see it run. Where do we send the donations to so you can get a camera?  :lol:

Bernd
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2009, 11:57:27 AM »
Nice job Dave.
Really would love to see it run. Where do we send the donations to so you can get a camera?  :lol:
Bernd

Who?  :scratch:

John innit?   :wave:

He can borrow my camera.....  :thumbup:

David D
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2009, 12:04:52 PM »
Wow well done Dave
 
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

After reading and re reading your posts I think I understand how it works very ingeneouse.

First class

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2009, 12:13:12 PM »
Well...... Am reight confused now.......  ::)
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline CrewCab

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2009, 12:31:42 PM »
Well done John ..........  :headbang: ................ now please go borrow a camera  :dremel:

CC

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2009, 12:34:14 PM »
Well done John ..........  :headbang: ................ now please go borrow a camera  :dremel:

CC

Thanks Dave.......  :thumbup:

David D
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Offline CrewCab

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2009, 12:50:28 PM »
Thanks Dave.......  :thumbup:

Nay probs, thaa's reeet welcum lad  :coffee:

CC

Offline NickG

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2009, 05:20:52 PM »
John that's great. Can't wait to see the video! I had to read your notes on first page but get it now!

Nick
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bogstandard

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2009, 01:58:12 PM »
Glad you got it running John, well done.

I always fancied making one of these



A swashplate engine, and when you study it very closely, it is all to do with timing, as the cylinder rods aren't actually connected to the plate, but actually 'nudge' the plate around in sequence.

John

Offline NickG

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2009, 04:56:34 AM »
Bogs,

I like that one more than other versions I've seen with horrible flexible connecting rods!

Nick
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Offline CallMeAl

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2009, 11:17:48 AM »
Very interesting concept.  I really enjoy seeing unusual engine designs.

Nice build, I am looking forward to seeing it run.

When I see something like this and then find out the design is based on an idea 100+ years ago I am amazed at the ingenuity.  All done without CAD, computers, etc.

Thanks, John, for showing me another new "twist" :thumbup:
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2010, 04:09:56 AM »
Have I missed something, again?  ::)

I still can`t see a video! 

Is kit me:scratch:

David D
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2010, 12:21:08 PM »
John

Thats good advice from Bogs, I've had a lot of experience with industrial adhesives and used in the right place they do a great job use them in the wrong place or in the wrong way and your in trouble, hence people shy away from them. Just to give you an idea of how good they can be if used correctly, its now common practice to fasten Full size loco wheels to the axles using high strength loctite.

If you google loctite there some good info there about how to use there product.

Have fun

Stew
Hi all, with regard to locktite, when using the "stud and bearing mount" max strength, a regular amount of "press" is recommended, with the locktite acting as a lubricant for the pressing, and it does fill in sub-microscopic voids and the intersticies of the grain of the metal, so it is in fact, a much stronger joint than it would be without the locktite, even though it would seem all the fluid would be squeezed out, logically.  I would say this is why it is now used on full sized loco wheels.  We used it with shafts and such in jet engines on helicopters in the Marines for permanent mounting, decades ago with success.  There's a lot more room "inside" a press fit joint that logic and imagination would lend credit for.  mad jack