Moving from Windows 7 to windows 10 - testing 1-2-3

[sorveltaja]

Finally I got myself to test, what Win 10 is about. I'd still prefer to use Win 7, but there's no way around, that its hardware support is fading away.

It has become as a habit for me to strip out as much excess stuff that I can, when doing clean win 7 install. It has been quite an easy thing to do just by disabling certain services and uninstalling needless stuff.
 
But no, with win 10 it doesn't seem to be that simple. "Full" 10 install is just horrible. No wonder that there are so many videos on youtube, and all kinds of scripts to "debloat" it.

After watching some videos of how the Windows iso-image can be modified, I opted for WinToolkit and MSMG toolkit, as they both are free.

First one, wintoolkit does its job, but for me it appears to be for advanced users (who actually know what they are doing), as there are so many options to choose from. 
Msmg toolkit, however allows one to choose components to be removed more in a 'bulk' way.

But which version of Win 10? So far I've tested 1903, 2004 and latest, 22H2.

For now, I'll stick to 1903, as for some reason, with other two versions, even after modifying the iso images - with same options - there are still stuff like microsoft store hanging around.
I guess the newer the windows version, harder it is to remove all that crap, at least when using msmg toolkit.

I'll probably install win 10 with current os at some point, but for testing purposes, I ordered separate ssd drive.

In the meantime, the setup I'm using is Oracle VM (also free software) on win 7, as msmg toolkit itself doesn't run on win 7.

So far, as a result, start menu (although I don't like it much) is a lot cleaner, right after finishing the installing:

[Spurry]

Very interesting, another Win7 diehard. I still have that mountain to climb. My biggest worry is how my old programs would like a new OS like Win10.
Pete

[awemawson]

I only have Win10 where I have to - workshop PC and my accounts PC still Win7 for the simple reason programs I need to run won't run on 10

[hanermo]

I went to win10 because my free win7/8 licenses would not run on the new laptop - no network adapter support before having a network.

And the new laptop was both necessary and extremely expensive with nvidia hw graphics.

With some tweaks I got more/less std old windows interfaces to run.
And the win10 spams are minimal .. apart from extremely bothersome endless upgrades if I donŽt use it for a few weeks.

Once I get the time (hah), IŽll tweak the win10 system to not peek or upgrade or spam system upgrades and or program upgrades so much.
This is difficult, laborious, and causes endless cascade errors, where a new sw kit needs access to a, needing library b, needing update c.

This is on purpose, from microsoft, forcing users to endlessly update their system - while reporting all installed sw to ms.

I greatly dislike the new win8 / win10 system, and more the endless upgrade/spyware cycle.
But since I need the new hw, there are few alternatives.

[philf]

Recently my workshop laptop (running Windows 7 Pro 32 bit) failed to boot one day. No problem - I'll restore it to how it was. Only to find my backup on a portable USB was corrupt.

I asked around for some Win 7 install disks (as a download is no longer available from Microsoft) - no-one had any. I then emailed a friend who gave me .iso files for Win 7 Pro in 32 & 64 bit versions on a USB stick.

I first tried the 64 bit but, try as I might, couldn't get a wireless connection. I reformatted the drive and installed the 32 bit version. I had the same problem - no wireless.

I thought that the free upgrade from Win 7 to Win 10 had ended some time ago but my friend thought I'd still be able to do it. So I downloaded Win 10 to a bootable USB stick and fitted an SSD that I had bought for my CNC PC. One of the first things it asked for was a registration key so I entered my valid Win 7 key - not accepted - bugger. I continued installing without a key and, to my surprise, I ended up with an activated copy of Win 10. Strangely the key is the same as my other Win 10 laptop and my desktop!

The best thing was everything worked just like it should without having to search for obscure drivers. And the boot speed and shutdown speed is much improved.

My Mach3 CNC PC still runs XP and I have several independently stored backups and many sets of install cds. The SSD I fitted to my laptop was originally destined for this machine but getting an SSD to work as the primary drive on XP is very difficult. (Not impossible but beyond me.)

I hope Microsoft continue to support Win 10 for a very long time because all my devices fail the Win 11 minimum requirement test.

[awemawson]

My original genuine bought by me Win 7 source disks cannot generate a clean load Win7 machine as the Microsoft registration system has been knocked on the head. They come up with the message that the software is not genuine (it is) or it needs activation.

I was given a copy of Microsoft Toolkit which allows me to activate almost anything Microsoft ! Microsoft Security Essentials sees it as a virus, so needs suspending until activation is complete, but then can be restarted.

Every 12 months or so I have to re-activate - in deed I did it on my workshop PC only the other day.

[sorveltaja]

Very interesting, another Win7 diehard. I still have that mountain to climb. My biggest worry is how my old programs would like a new OS like Win10.
Pete

How old programs do you use?

I tried paint shop pro 8.1 (about from year 2003) and office 97(whose installer is so old that it didn't work even in win 7, but its programs like excel can still be used), and both seem to work just fine when running win 10 in VM. Haven't looked yet what the 'compatibility mode' is like. But it wasn't needed with those programs, though.

So yeah, I use such an old "abandonware" almost daily for image processing and spreadsheets. They are just perfect ones for simple tasks.

[sorveltaja]

And the win10 spams are minimal .. apart from extremely bothersome endless upgrades if I donŽt use it for a few weeks.

Once I get the time (hah), IŽll tweak the win10 system to not peek or upgrade or spam system upgrades and or program upgrades so much.
This is difficult, laborious, and causes endless cascade errors, where a new sw kit needs access to a, needing library b, needing update c.

It isn't necessarily that difficult to disable windows updates. For a home user/tinker, it's probably ok to test it and see what relief it is what happens.

[sorveltaja]

Recently my workshop laptop (running Windows 7 Pro 32 bit) failed to boot one day. No problem - I'll restore it to how it was. Only to find my backup on a portable USB was corrupt.

I asked around for some Win 7 install disks (as a download is no longer available from Microsoft) - no-one had any. I then emailed a friend who gave me .iso files for Win 7 Pro in 32 & 64 bit versions on a USB stick.

I first tried the 64 bit but, try as I might, couldn't get a wireless connection. I reformatted the drive and installed the 32 bit version. I had the same problem - no wireless.

The win 7 versions you tried, did they have service pack 1 integrated in them? Just a thought. If win 7 worked before, and not anymore - it's like something is missing. 
But anyways, glad to hear that you got it sorted out .

[philf]

The win 7 versions you tried, did they have service pack 1 integrated in them? Just a thought. If win 7 worked before, and not anymore - it's like something is missing. 
But anyways, glad to hear that you got it sorted out .

Sorveltaja,

I don't know if they included service packs. The guy who gave them to me is an IT professional so guess he would have had access to the latest versions.

[Edit: I since Googled the files I was given & "Windows 7, Professional version, with service pack 1, 64 bit, new install, English language".]

When I'd finished the installation and tried to install drivers which I'd downloaded on my other laptop I got an error message about a missing DLL file which I had to patch. I then managed to get broadband access via a cable direct from my router but after messing about for hours gave up on the wireless. If I hadn't have had alternative access to the web I wouldn't even have got that far.

Cheers.

Phil.

[sorveltaja]

Sorveltaja,

I don't know if they included service packs. The guy who gave them to me is an IT professional so guess he would have had access to the latest versions.

[Edit: I since Googled the files I was given & "Windows 7, Professional version, with service pack 1, 64 bit, new install, English language".]

When I'd finished the installation and tried to install drivers which I'd downloaded on my other laptop I got an error message about a missing DLL file which I had to patch. I then managed to get broadband access via a cable direct from my router but after messing about for hours gave up on the wireless. If I hadn't have had alternative access to the web I wouldn't even have got that far.

Cheers.

Phil.

There is actually service pack 2 still available for win 7 from microsoft site, but there it says: "Remember, since Microsoft isn't calling this update a service pack, the version number listed in System Properties will remain Windows 7 SP1." I guess it's just several patches in one packet. MS has sometimes tendency of being rather confusing of how they tell about things. 

Anyway, out of curiosity I took a look, what the *newest and meanest* win 11 22H2 is about. They rearranged a lot of gui related stuff, so maybe it is, after all, a better os with new features.

To get back to win 10, I've made a list of services, that are related to microsoft store, microsoft passport, and other features, that I have never used, and never will.
Disabling such stuff (and a lot more) is just the way I like to get the windows to "bare bones". There is always risk of breaking something, but so far, with such modifications, there hasn't been problems when running win 10 in VM.

All that may change when using real hardware, or not. But we'll see.

[sorveltaja]

My original genuine bought by me Win 7 source disks cannot generate a clean load Win7 machine as the Microsoft registration system has been knocked on the head. They come up with the message that the software is not genuine (it is) or it needs activation.

I was given a copy of Microsoft Toolkit which allows me to activate almost anything Microsoft ! Microsoft Security Essentials sees it as a virus, so needs suspending until activation is complete, but then can be restarted.

Every 12 months or so I have to re-activate - in deed I did it on my workshop PC only the other day.

If (or when) microsoft "retires" their products, and related services, what one can do? If such products are declared to be abandonware, do they even care anymore what the users do with them?
Maybe they do, but who cares? I would have done the same as you did.

After all, windows - as it used to be, is still a very powerful tool. 

[sorveltaja]

I attached a new drive to my pc and installed W10 to it (it refused to install to drive where W7 is), and there was no dual boot menu. It booted straight to W10.

I looked on the net, if it's possible to add such afterwards.

One way to do it: https://www.tenforums.com/installation-upgrade/81399-how-add-dual-boot-windows-10-a.html

There it says:

"Let's say your Windows 7 partition shows up as F: drive in file explorer and your Windows XP shows up at G: drive. You would run the following commands:

bcdboot F:\Windows /addlast /d
bcdboot G:\Windows /addlast /d
exit"

I did that in W10, but after reboot, still no dual boot menu. Then I went to Bios settings and changed boot option from 'Legacy + UEFI' to UEFI, and voila, dual boot menu appeared after the next reboot.

But when W7 started, it wasn't genuine anymore though... Bugger! That has never happened before, at least for me. But I got that sorted out by fiddling with that boot related stuff.
Can't remember what I did or how I managed to do it... I really should have written every step down.

I think I'll do another W10 install, once I get the current one backed up, as it has already plenty of customized settings in it (personal preference, drivers and such), to see if mentioned issues could be repeated.

There were none of those issues, when I installed W10 to ten years old laptop that has W7 in it. Dual boot menu appeared after reboot as it should.

So it has most likely to do with newer kinds of Bioses that have UEFI. On older Bioses (like those with Dos-like interface) that my laptop has, there doesn't seem to be any UEFI related stuff or settings. Maybe it's just pure 'legacy' mode and nothing else.

[pycoed]

I know that Virtualbox is also available for Windows, though I've never used it. Why not install that in your W10 partition then install W7 in Virtualbox? You can continue to boot into W10 as usual & run W7 from there quite seamlessly.

[Muzzerboy]

Perhaps you should consider Ghost Spectre W10 or W11 Superlight. This is so stripped back there isn't even a browser, firewall or anything much beyond the core installation and drivers.
https://tech-latest.com/ghost-spectre-windows-10-superlite-version/

There's a slightly less basic version (non-Superlight) that is perhaps a bit more usable but still very light. More info here:
https://www.facebook.com/GHOSTMODS/

[sorveltaja]

I know that Virtualbox is also available for Windows, though I've never used it. Why not install that in your W10 partition then install W7 in Virtualbox? You can continue to boot into W10 as usual & run W7 from there quite seamlessly.

Yeah, that's one way to use W7, but I'm not sure if free versions of virtual machines offer possibility to use hardware drivers. For example Oracle VM seems to have a limit of 128Mb Ram for video card. For simple tasks, that may well be enough.

[sorveltaja]

Perhaps you should consider Ghost Spectre W10 or W11 Superlight. This is so stripped back there isn't even a browser, firewall or anything much beyond the core installation and drivers.
https://tech-latest.com/ghost-spectre-windows-10-superlite-version/

There's a slightly less basic version (non-Superlight) that is perhaps a bit more usable but still very light. More info here:
https://www.facebook.com/GHOSTMODS/

I tried 2009.superlite+compact ghost spectre, and it seems to work just fine, but it has some telemetry and xbox related services or components, which I tried to remove using msmg toolkit, but it gave errors when reading install.wim file.

Although the idea of such modified, thin isos is no doubt welcome, one can never be sure, what exactly is done to modify the iso image.

That's why I prefer to stick to official W10 iso, and mod it myself following instructions by guys like Chris Titus, who also gives some general info, of how removing certain components may affect other windows functions.

[sorveltaja]

There's odd thing, that I noticed after installing W10 to my pc, after several hours of  fiddling with settings, my eyes began to feel like they were bleeding.

I have a monitor with max resolution 2560x1440. With W7, I've used 125% scaling, so text and other stuff are easier to see, and it has worked very well and display is 'crisp'.
But with W10, when using same resolution, same 125% scaling, there is certain 'blurriness' in some programs. And I'm not the only one, who has noted that. There are plenty of pages on the net, of how to "fix" that.

However, there is a simple a solution:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/make-older-apps-or-programs-compatible-with-windows-783d6dd7-b439-bdb0-0490-54eea0f45938

There it says:
- - - -
 Change the application's high-DPI scaling mode

In the High DPI scaling override area, select Override high DPI scaling behavior, and then try one of the following options:

    Application – Disable all Windows scaling settings and only use the app developer's setting. This option was called Disable display scaling on high DPI settings in previous versions of Windows.

    System – Overrides the program’s DPI settings and makes it run like it would on a low-DPI display. On a high-DPI display, this will make the program appear blurry.

    System (Enhanced) – Windows will try to use enhanced DPI scaling for this program. As a result, some programs will display with crisp text on high-DPI displays. This won't work for all programs.
- - - -

So, by going to programs compatibility settings --> Change high DPI settings, and selecting  'Override high DPI scaling behavior' with 'Application' option seems to do the trick.

Comparison:

 

I guess this has to be done separately to each program that has this issue.

[sorveltaja]

I've been looking for a ways to block certain network traffic, that W10 uses to send out information of what the user does, obviously without users consent.

As windows firewall is far too cryptic for me to figure out, I've tried other things like Tinywall and Simplewall, which may not be firewalls per se, but rather ways to interact with windows firewall.

So far, I'm not quite sure if they are able to totally block that kind of traffic. Or maybe I just haven't yet fully grasped how they work.

Just an example: In W10, when clicking the network icon on the taskbar, and opening network settings, SystemSettings.exe sends every time query to www.bing.com, trafficmanager.net, edgekey.net and so on.

That can be seen by using Wireshark, or simpler one, DNSLookupView.

I know this is nitpicking, but I just don't like that kind of hidden activity at all. Some say that microsoft uses such data to improve window's features. Really? They don't have enough hired brains to do that?

Anyways, there are at least some tools to try out, that I've found so far: Powershell based program from Chris Titus website, and Blackbird.

I've tried CT's program to strip some bloat (using its 'desktop' -option), and yes, it seems to lower the number of services. But then again, the video, where he explains how to use it, is mostly about gaming performance.

Another one, Blackbird shows (perhaps at least some) elements that are used for telemetry/spying. Disabling all of them actually breaks some of the windows features.

W10 version 1903 has things like:

InputApp
CloudExperienceHost
StartMenuExperienceHost
ShellExperienceHost

All of them are located in Windows/SystemApps -folder. "Experience" this and that, as long as you give us your data.

End of the rant.

[sorveltaja]

It seems that W10 requires quite a lot of tweaks and tricks to minimize telemetry and all that unnecessary crap.

If that wasn't enough, from what I've read, windows updates may(and probably do) nullify plenty of such tweaks, and therefore they need to be re-applied after each feature update.

But spyware telemetry is obviously one of the things, that microsoft is pushing really hard to windows users, to get "diagnostic data". It's like from the movie 'The Little Shop of Horrors', where carnivore plant cries: "feed me!"

Fortunately there are guys, who have observed such things, and offer possible workarounds, in reasonably understandable language/terms. Still most stuff in page like that just makes my head spin: 

https://medium.com/@securitystreak/the-2017-pentester-guide-to-windows-10-privacy-security-cf734c510b8d

In its 'Security & privacy tools' portion, there is a suggested list of tools to use.

So far I've tried following ones in that order:

- Debloat and tweak your base system with /r/tronscript.

- Saved WindowsSpyBlocker hosts as HOSTS.TXT in Blackbird folder and applied it.

- 'Windows 10 Privacy' tweaks

- Destroy Windows 10 Spying (DWS)

- Windows Privacy Dashboard

Some of the things that possibly break after doing that:

Functions which normally use systemsettings.exe to work (like some control panel items,  personalization function which is used to select themes).   

So is it worth all the hassle? Maybe, maybe not.

That excess telemetry traffic has disappeared or decreased dramatically, though. Or so it seems at this moment.

[sorveltaja]

One thing that I like about W7, is that it has a lot more options to tweak themes and colors, than W10 does. I have always used greyish 'Classic' theme, as it's easier to my eyes.
Besides, I just love that stone age Windows NT look. No bells or whistles.

In W10, options that are available just suck. About the only way to adjust at least some colors - without third party software - seems to be to edit rgb values in either high-contrast white, or -dark  .theme file. In other theme files such entries don't seem to exist.

Downside of using high contrast theme is, that it forces programs like Waterfox (that I use as it allows legacy add-ons like Blank Your Monitor) to show pages in screaming white and black.

There are other options like this: https://github.com/malvinas2/ClassicThemeForWindows10

Meh, I tried that, but it has way too much other stuff involved than just colors. And there is always possibility to break something in W10, when such tools are used.

To me it looks like a waste of time, if(and when) it needs to be broken and "cleaned" to be usable and free from that telemetry stuff.

So, for home users, what improvements W10 has over W7? Any thoughts are welcome.

[bob h.]

Reading this thread makes me happy I switched 100% to Linux in 2008!

Bob

[AdeV]

Like Bob - I switched to Linux on my daily driver some years ago (not sure I was brave enough to do it in 2008... but certainly by 2015); except being a VB/C# programmer, I did need to keep a Windows machine around. Nowadays the only use I have for Windows is CAD - and I believe there's a pretty good web based CAD available now which might finally mean I can toss all of those Windows VMs out of the window for once and for all...

sorveltaja - in my humble opinion, you should try to keep Windows 7 working for as long as possible... I can't see any benefit to upgrading to Windows 10 - unless you literally need a piece of software that absolutely won't work in Windows 7.  Windows 10 (and 11, I believe, although I haven't experienced that one, fortunately) are chock full of unnecessary crap, they call home all the time, and who wants to boot their computer up only to be confronted with 1/2 hour wait while Windows does "stuff" to itself?

If you've got enough CPU & memory for it... run Windows X in a VM (Oracle Virtualbox is my current weapon of choice, although I've happily used VMWare Player before as well).  I have a VM running Windows 7 with Solidworks, and as long as I give it 4 CPU cores and 16GB of RAM, it seems to go at least as fast as I can drive it... maybe a pro would notice some lag?. I also have a Windows 10 VM (my old Solidworks setup, before I got fed up with Win10 & downgraded); I accidentally fired it up yesterday & wow! 20 minutes of "updating" at start-up; then when I went to shut it down, it wanted another goodness knows how long to update itself again. I broke the rules: I turned it off  And then deleted it...

BTW, in an earlier message, you noted that "For example Oracle VM seems to have a limit of 128Mb Ram for video card. For simple tasks, that may well be enough."  - If you enable 3D Acceleration, then 128Mb becomes the minimum(!) and it'll go out to 512Mb (IIRC - I'll check in a few minutes, when my correct VM has copied to my new computer).

As I said - I use Solidworks in a Virtualbox VM. I actually haven't tried it on the machine I just bought & am setting up now; but on my laptop (which, admittedly, has a 12th Gen 12-core i7 CPU in it and 32GB RAM) it honestly works brilliantly.  My new PC is a 7th gen i7 (7770), also 32GB & 1TB SSD - a 5 year old refurbished Dell Optiplex 7050, for slightly less than Ł400. So far, it's great, but the Grand Solidworks Test will start in about 20 mins, when it's finished copying the VM from the laptop

[sorveltaja]

W10 is indeed famous... of being infamous. I've read about users who wonder why their laptops/PC's struggle, when there are almost 200 processes running. It's like decoy; "click this, and you get some really jolly good things installed. But we don't tell you how much all that crap taxes your computer".

Rather economical and ecological way to do things, eh? I just can't see anything changing for better, be it W11, W12, or whatever.

Meh, I just had to rant again. Sorry about that.

But to get to the point, yeah, I pretty much keep using W7 as long as possible.

Brave browser is about the only software I use, that nags about needing to update to W10 before next browser update. So far, for some reason Brave hasn't forced to update itself.
I use it only to watch Youtube videos, as it blocks all bloody annoying ads. In other words - Youtube like it used to be.

[awemawson]

I still use Win7 on my main desktop and my workshop PC as I have programs I need that Win10 can’t cope with .
However I also still use Internet Explorer in Win 7 as my default browser as my IP camera network will only run on I E.
This is beginning to cause problems with web sites that can’t handle I E. I got stuck in a black hole the other day having successfully selected an item, put it in my basket, but the site couldn’t progress to payment. I ended up having to log on from a different computer using Firefox to complete the transaction

[AdeV]

Brave browser is about the only software I use, that nags about needing to update to W10 before next browser update. So far, for some reason Brave hasn't forced to update itself.
I use it only to watch Youtube videos, as it blocks all bloody annoying ads. In other words - Youtube like it used to be.

Try Opera - it also blocks all those tedious adverts, and it doesn't nag about updating Windows It's also available for Linux, when you decide to make the switch 

[awemawson]

Thanks Ade - I've just downloaded Opera and as you say it makes YouTube 'as it was' !

[sorveltaja]

Thanks Ade - I've just downloaded Opera and as you say it makes YouTube 'as it was' !

I'll second that, thanks!

[sorveltaja]

An update - unfortunately nothing new (yet I hope).

So, after moving not once but twice this spring, I don't have much room to set up tools for machining anymore. Hmm... what to do then?

Well, one thing that doesn't take plenty of room - playing with computer! PC is actually one of the first things I have to get working after moving.

Anyways, I decided to revisit Win10 and see what actually prevented me using it. Yes, major problem is its very limited(or prohibited) ways to modify its gui(graphical user interface).

So far I've ran it in Oracle VM (as I did previously also). It's still the same debloated W10 Ltsc 21H2 image(iso file).

Some free tools that are available to modify gui colors and such - by using them, I just can't get anything that I'd expect.

One big thing that's missing in W10 is the possibility to make active/inactive windows visually separable(although it can be done) - like it was in W7 and W2000/XP and whatever, if that makes sense.

And W10's default font sucks(my personal preference), but it just might be possible to change that. I prefer Tahoma Bold font in window's title bars.

In short, to "7 windowize" W10 gui to utilize it better. As probably mentioned earlier, it has to do with high contrast themes(also known as ease of access for visually impaired) and registry hacks.

I've done some testing, and finally W10 gui colors are closer to what I'm used to with W7. There are some quirks, though. The way that certain colors are used/applied/tied together with other objects in W10 is just weird.

As I've searched and searched on the net for possible solution, eventually I hit the bottom, or so it seems.

There are plenty of options to try out, though. Some are free and some are not.

Basically, just to get taskbar color changed to light gray as a personal preference (RGB 212 208 200), requires something (program or service)  that needs to be started with windows, and which then needs to hang all the time on the background.

One thing that might (not sure at this point) be worth tinkering with is Msstyle editor (which is free). But it has so god damn many 'classes' to go through. And every class has its own sub things called property.

I'm not interested in duplicating Win7 GUI per se, as some do. "All the start menus and 3D buttons have to be exactly like in Win7" - for what - I don't know.

But what I know (although I'm not a pro in any way) is when I'm doing some demanding things (like using several progs at a time, and dozens of windows open), that the screen I'm watching is clear, and not restricted with some dumb things like Win10's restricted color modifiability.

In other words, to forget the Windows, and do the stuff instead, as one Youtuber aptly said.

Bit of a rant, but I guess I'm not alone with this. 

Anyways, hoping to extend my ability to search more about the subject, I started using ChatGPT, as it's free (and I assume it has a large database).

I certainly don't expect it to spew any Microsoft's insider info, but rather looking ways to squeeze something useful out of it, if possible.

[sorveltaja]

Closer - but not quite there yet. There is something called Aero Lite, that's apparently "hidden" in Win10. It can be enabled though, but its default colors aren't that good(like too dark taskbar with black text).

Aerolite.theme -file doesn't seem to be included in W10, so I had to download it from the net.
Well it's always risky to do that, but it's just a text file, and I opened it in notepad in VM to see what's in there.

As I earlier wrote, I tested W10's high contrast themes to edit colors, but what might look ok in desktop, actually messes program's colors also(like Firefox), so I think I'll skip it altogether.

To me, Aero Lite looks better, and has borders on the windows. Modifying at least some of accent colors can be done with AccentPalette.

The end result maybe depends also on default windows- and default app mode(light or dark), havent tested it yet.

As can be seen in the pic, buttons in windows titles doesn't show at all, except on active window, and even then only the 'X' one.

Yeah, although I don't care much about AI, I've used that Chatgpt to ask silly questions about the subject - it doesn't seem to mind at all.

 

[sorveltaja]

One free tool that makes W10 to look like W7 is "Automatic classic theme script for windows 10" at https://winclassic.net/thread/204/automatic-classic-theme-script-windows

It's actually a bat-file, and yes, it does work in changing the GUI, but it's also buggy. For example, after applying it, there is an option to disable it by using the same script, but it doesn't work, or maybe it worked on older versions of W10. Also, it seems to work only in 100% scaling, so text(like under desktop icons) is overall rather small.

It modifies (or breaks) parts of W10's system. Perhaps that's the only way to force W10 to use custom colors, hope not.

But the colors are just spot on. I tried to edit the bat file by removing one portion at a time to consist only color altering registry keys. So far, without success.

It might have something to do with W10's DWM(desktop window manager) and/or other things that prevents further color customizing.

 
 

[sorveltaja]

Just today, while looking possible locations in W10's registry for the colors, I noticed that windows' own registry editor's search doesn't show all the results(if any).

For example, I know that there is a certain value FF994D00 in following keys, when navigating in reg editor, which "are not found":

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\SystemProtectedUserData\S-1-5-21-576976833-1637798910-2310749630-1001\AnyoneRead\Colors
HKEY_USERS\S-1-5-21-576976833-1637798910-2310749630-1001\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Accent

When exporting whole registry, and opened in notepad or whatever, those keys with that data can be found...

One free registry editor, that I'm testing, is 'ooregeditor', and it seems to be able to find 'hidden' keys: https://www.oo-software.com/en/ooregeditor

In some registry keys one has to add/take permission to edit; otherwise it's denied. It's just few steps, and easier than I thought.

While fiddling with different colors and settings, I managed to make W10's inactive title bars red(as it's easier to indicate if something has changed), no matter what theme I used, so I guess I managed to do something that was permanent - what it is, one can only guess, since I used msstyle editor and some other simple tools. I've been trying to reproduce it, but so far nothing.

Last but not least - about color formats used in registry: RGB, ARGB, BGR. And some are in hex form like one mentioned above.

[philf]

You do know that Microsoft are stopping support for Win 10 in 2025!

I'll have to live without updates as my two Win 10 laptops and desktop all fail to meet the minimum requirements for Win 11.

[sorveltaja]

I've been looking for ways to locate the bitmaps used for window buttons(minimize, maximize and close), and it seems they are located in one bitmap in msstyles file.

By using Resource Hacker, one can see, extract and replace the bitmap(s): https://www.angusj.com/resourcehacker/

Yeah, there's a bit of a compromise - one have to use SecureUxTheme to enable third party(or just edited ones) themes: https://github.com/namazso/SecureUxTheme
It is said to be safer to use, as it doesn't modify system files.

Another one, that I haven't used, is UXTheme Patcher: https://uxthemepatcher.com/

Also, if one wants to experiment with windows' aero.msstyles or aerolite.msstyles files, as it's a system file, permission needs to be added to current user. That way the msstyles file can be moved to desktop or other temporary place for editing, because it can't be edited and saved in its original folder. It seems the msstyles file can be edited in its original folder; but only if the edited theme isn't in use.

Apparently there is not much info on the net, of how to interpret msstyles files. It's almost like an occult science, but still there seems to be plenty of people making fancy themes and skins, which they sell. Wonder where they have learned about such things. One place is DeviantArt, but even when registering there, the forum is rather restricted(I guess for new users): https://www.deviantart.com/

I'm not looking for something radical; just to change certain colors, or edit certain bitmaps to achieve that to make W10's gui more usable for old farts like me. 

Little bit of testing - just by editing one msstyles' bitmap, it's possible to make the window buttons to have certain background color, that doesn't change much whether the window is active or inactive. It doesn't seem to affect apps like firefox and system setting, though.

Some colors are somewhat off. Might need more testing with other theme-related settings.

Current result with:

- edited msstyle bitmap,
- one key registry entry for taskbar color
- Accentpalette to change the highlighted window in taskbar(not sure what it's called). It seems to change startmenu color also.

   

[sorveltaja]

You do know that Microsoft are stopping support for Win 10 in 2025!

I'll have to live without updates as my two Win 10 laptops and desktop all fail to meet the minimum requirements for Win 11.

I've tested W11 in VM, and it's very heavy compared to W10. But so is default W10 install.

Any chance of making slimmed down version of W11, and see how it goes?  Probably needless to say, that windows 11 updates would make it heavy again.

It all depends on what Windows features user wants/needs to have.

[sorveltaja]

I played with aerolite.msstyles file, and it has a png file in it called STREAM777.

By coloring different areas, I managed to locate some positions, which appears to hold certain elements' colors.

Right side of the image is blank, and coloring it doesn't seem to have any effect(maybe it does when using themes which use aero.msstyles).
The orbs may be a part of windows animations. Haven't played with them yet, as I usually disable all animations and decorations.

Located colors for elements so far:

 

[sorveltaja]

I think I have a theme, that's still far from being esthetically perfect, but probably will do for testing it in actual W10 installation. But there is one thing - I haven't yet figured how to transfer theme from one W10 instance to another.

Yeah, one can make a theme pack file in W10 using "Save Theme for Sharing", but it doesn't save all the data, that is involved, just the theme -file. Nothing about msstyles files, or harmless registry hacks such as changing window title font to bold Tahoma, and tighten the desktop icons spacing.

I guess it could be achieved by using some kind of automated script, but haven't looked how to do that.

And, about editing msstyles file(s). W10 just doesn't seem to accept certain color combinations to be used in a bitmap, that's located in DWMWindow class(picture in previous post).
Just for fun, I tried using sepia tone("aged newspaper" effect In paint shop pro 8) for it, and nah, title bars were default blue, every time when I applied an edited theme.

So, modifying W10 appearance appears to be limited in so many ways.

There might be ways to make window buttons react "sort of" like they do in W7, though. What I mean, is when one is about to close/restore/minimize a window, and hesitates, having mouse pointer on any button, so that it's "pushed in", but not clicked.
     



 

[sorveltaja]

I've been playing with msstyles editor, and found something that still seems to be a part of W10. I have no idea what kind of mode it is, as it lasts only few seconds before W10 crashes and becomes totally unusable with black screen. Even rebooting doesn't help.

I was able to reproduce that to take a screen capture of the virtual machine:



It does that when opening aerolite.msstyles file in the editor, and deleting a few property keys, and clicking test button. So that's just the theme I'm looking for(and with extra feature, gradient window title bar!).

That's again one of those things, of which I have found practically nothing on the net. Or perhaps I haven't used right terms to look for it. 'Fallback' is a word I've used to search.

PS. I noticed after posting, that the image seems zoomed in/too large to fit in the page. It's about 1600 x 1200(resolution of the virtual machine plus vm borders). Is there a way to make it show in original size?

PS 2. I resized the image to fit better.

[sorveltaja]

I use mainly firefox for web browsing, and noticed that in W10 it has huge spaces between items in bookmarks menu. I prefer it nice and tight, as it is in W7. 

There appears to be no options in firefox's setting to adjust it, but still it seems to be possible. Comparison - on the left is modded and on the right is default menu item spacing:

 

I've tested this with esr (extended support release) versions of firefox 91.6.0 and 115.13.0.

It has to do with a file called userChrome.css. From what I've read, it can be used to modify many aspects in firefox user interface.

But in this case, someone has wrote a short snippet (which I've edited, as the default menu bar font 13 is way too big for my preference):

Code: [Select]

menupopup > menuitem, menupopup > menu {
padding-block: 0px !important; /*adjust: 0px-4px*/
min-height: 21px !important; /*adjust: 21px-24px or unset*/
}

*|*:root {--arrowpanel-menuitem-padding: 1px 8px !important;}

/*
* Make all the default font sizes 13 pt:
*/
* {
font-size: 9pt !important
}

It can be saved as txt file, and then renamed to have .css extension. It has to be in a folder 'chrome', which can be created to desktop or other temporary place.

Then it's copied to C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\xxxxxxxx.default (x's are some random numbers and letters)
At this point it does nothing, and firefox has to be made to look for it when it starts.

It's done by writing in firefox's address bar "about:config" (without quotation marks) and then to search bar below: 

toolkit.legacyUserProfileCustomizations.stylesheets - and set the value from false to true.

It can be undone, if needed - just delete the copied 'chrome' folder.

Some info about the subject: https://www.tenforums.com/browsers-email/183901-firefox-taming-beast-part-2-a.html

[sorveltaja]

When W10 starts, there is notable delay with startup program(s). For example, I've used to add Winamp shortcut to startup folder, so it starts automatically.
There seems to be at least one way to reduce that delay, though. I saw it in youtube video.

Yes, it requires (again) a registry hack:

Open Regedit and navigate to the HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer, and create a new key 'Serialize'. Then add 32-bit Dword 'StartupDelayInMSec', and set the value to 0.

I guess same can be done instead by merging the registry entry:

Code: [Select]

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Serialize]
"StartupDelayInMSec"=dword:00000000
It's just unbelievable. One has to use fix after fix to make W10 usable. It's obvious that Microsoft will not react to such issues at all, although there are MS sites, where users can give feedback.
And having zillions of W10 (and W11) versions doesn't help either.

[sorveltaja]

Yet another annoyance in W10: it doesn't remember/save apps' volume levels, so they are always set to the master's level (leftmost one in volume mixer). when apps are started.
I'll look for info about how to fix that. If I find a working solution, I'll add it here.

Edit: so far it seems to be only Opera browser, whose volume level isn't saved. I tried portable version, and same result.

Edit 2: The issue with Opera is probably, that for some reason it doesn't have an entry in HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\LowRegistry\Audio\PolicyConfig\PropertyStore, where other apps(like Winamp and Firefox) store their volume levels. 

Creating such an entry for opera would be nice, but the entries have cryptic values/names or whatever, which consist numbers and letters:

Edit 3: I tested Opera with newer W10 22H2 in virtual machine. There the volume levels were stored, and it worked as it should. But it is default, non-debloated version.

Conclusion: expect odd hickups when using modified version of Windows.

Edit 4: It seems that for W10 to store apps like Opera's volume levels, Internet Explorer 11 needs to be enabled in Windows features. I tested it with previously mentioned W10 22H2 by disabling IE, and voila, Opera volume level was stored no more.

One wonders why some apps have features, which are still dependent of IE.

Anyway, I think I'll make another debloated version of W10, which includes IE.

[sorveltaja]

Yet another registry hack, which enables 'old style' feature. When clicking volume icon, default result is on the left, and 'restored' one on the right:

 

 

   

Code: [Select]

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\MTCUVC]
"EnableMtcUvc"=dword:00000000
It's from http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Windows_10_tricks#Re-enable_volume_mixer

[Muzzerboy]

Another annoyance with W10 compared to W7 - the intern tasked with messing up the brightness controls decided to reset the brightness at each startup to a nice low setting. So each time I start up my XPS13 I have to crank up the brightness manually. That must have been a conscious decision - you have to wonder why....

[sorveltaja]

Another annoyance with W10 compared to W7 - the intern tasked with messing up the brightness controls decided to reset the brightness at each startup to a nice low setting. So each time I start up my XPS13 I have to crank up the brightness manually. That must have been a conscious decision - you have to wonder why....

Is there some (possibly display card related, or other) software involved, that enables one to control the brightness? I admit to be a newbie with W10, as I haven't found such option in the OS itself.

[Muzzerboy]

It's in "display and settings" - just type "brightness" in the start button to get there. On my laptop there are also brightness up/down keys, thankfully, so I don't have to dive into settings each time I start up. But it's bl00dy annoying that it resets brightness each time.

I take it you're familiar with this kind of install process?

[sorveltaja]

It's in "display and settings" - just type "brightness" in the start button to get there. On my laptop there are also brightness up/down keys, thankfully, so I don't have to dive into settings each time I start up. But it's bl00dy annoying that it resets brightness each time.

I take it you're familiar with this kind of install process?

Ah ok, it's a laptop. I have two old Acer ones, which have similar feature, as well as volume adjustment. So far, I'm not sure what is involved with those functions, as they probably exist only in laptops and nowadays in other portable devices. Wild guess would be that it may depend on what kind of software different brands (Asus, Acer, HP or whatever) have pre-installed in their machines, as 'features'. I have never been fan of such, and therefore have removed that kind of bloat from my laptops, at the moment I got my paws on them.

So, if or when one looks for solution to such issue as you mentioned, there may not be only one way to skin the cat.

About the video you posted: No, I haven't got that far; no need for automation, as I only need to install one instance to my desktop pc.

There are, no doubt, other options available, but for me Msmg tool is enough to strip away all the excess and unnecessary bloat of the installation media.       

     

[sorveltaja]

This is not W10 related, but about Firefox, which keeps sometimes nagging about updates. In Waterfox, updates can be turned off totally in settings (so far), but not in FF.

These two registry entries can be used to disable and enable updating.

Updating off:

Code: [Select]

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Mozilla\Firefox]
"DisableAppUpdate"=dword:00000001


Updating back on:

Code: [Select]

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Mozilla\Firefox]
"DisableAppUpdate"=dword:00000000

After the updating is disabled, it looks like this:

 

[sorveltaja]

There appears to be a significant difference in OpenGL test results between W7 and W10. If the benchmark at https://www.geeks3d.com/gputest/ is to be trusted, W10 with latest Nvidia driver has a score of almost five times to W7 in one of its tests:

 

 

As can be seen, W7 has much older driver, as there aren't new drivers for it (haven't checked, which is the latest version, that would work in W7, though).
   

 

[sorveltaja]

Another, major annoyance: when searching something, for example on C drive, using term "png" or whatever, if/when there are results that show png files, and double-clicking one of the results to open it. All is well at that point.

But when the search is over, and one goes back to that folder's initial view, and minimize the window, it goes back to search mode. I use to do that a lot in W7, and haven't yet found what causes such behavior in W10.

Again, I'm using W10 21H2 Build 19044.1288 for testing. I've already disabled Focus and window snapping in settings. Anyone with more recent instance of W10? Does this issue still exist in newest version? 

[sorveltaja]

Does this issue still exist in newest version?

I tested latest W10 22H2 version, no. Neither do few other default versions of W10, that I've played with. So it was about debloating bit too much. 

As I've used Msmg toolkit for cropping the installation media, I made yet another image, and looked for possible search-related things, like Cortana and such.
In system apps -section, there was 'search app' (number 32 on the list) which I had previously always disabled. So I left it enabled, and it looks like that issue is solved.

At this point, it seems that at least two W10 features/apps or whatever needs to be included in the customized image:

- Internet Explorer (for browsers like Opera to 'remember' user set volume levels)
- Search App (so that explorer doesn't stubbornly go back to search mode, as mentioned earlier)



   

[sorveltaja]

Now that I thought the search issue was solved after adequate/relevant feature was enabled, it produced yet another issue. Explorer's search box doesn't allow copying/pasting anymore, unless that pesky 'clipboard user service' is enabled.

But even then, the search function feels "off", if one is used to use it simply as a tool.

It seems that W10 was deliberately crippled designed to have layers upon layers of totally unnecessary dependencies.

In other words, it will always be a compromise between very limited options, if one wishes to make W10 "lean and mean", instead of the user being "tool for a tool".

In the end, I've worked on W10's colors and look, to have rather bearable (at least for me) and simplified theme for it. As one might expect, it's also very limited, as there are unexplainable/undocumented ways of how certain colors are linked together. "Accent colors", and that kind of jazz.

[sorveltaja]

If W10 has missing shortcut icons, resulting blank white one(s), one way to fix that is to delete 'IconCache.db' (located at C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Local), and restarting Windows explorer service in task manager.

I think I'm sort of starting to get used to W10. It is what it is, and apparently it can't be modded to have more customizability without some serious.. well, mods. Not to mention, that such mods may or will have great impact on the overall performance.

There are some questionable things modifications I personally like to use at this point of learning curve, though:

- Edit aerolite.msstyles file to 'fine tune' aspects of my 'user experience'. In other words, colors and bitmaps of certain GUI objects/parts.

- Windhawk mod, that enables 'Win32 Tray Clock Experience'. Basically it replaces W10's clock/calendar with W8's one, which is similar to what W7 has. Yes, it's an additional process to run, but appears to have minor impact to performance (according to PassMark Performance Test v9).

- Plenty of registry hacks. My latest find on the net is about how to change the behavior of taskbar thumbnail windows. By default, all open windows seem to have thumbnail windows extruding from the taskbar, which I find rather confusing. Besides, they obstruct/block, or generally just occupy too much of the working area. The idea is to allow only apps to have such a windows, and to have explorer windows' ones to be stacked, again, like in W7.

[sorveltaja]

I've tested Brave browser in W10 (new versions don't work in W7 anymore), as it works well in blocking youtube ads.

It has an option to block autoplay on sites, but it doesn't seem to work on youtube:

brave://settings/content/autoplay

or by navigating to Settings -> Privacy and security -> Site and Shield settings -> Additional permissions -> Autoplay

One way that appears to work without any extension(s), is to sign in to youtube. That way it remembers users history/settings as long as the browser's history is cleared, I guess.

Even when the browser is closed and opened again, user is signed in. Don't know how long that 'session' lasts, though. Maybe there are other related settings, either on youtube or in the browser for that.