Files Ordered

[Arbalist]

Where did you fined that photos ?  dont think that machine is from the  1700 ,could be mistaken

Rob

Well I didn't make it up Rob, it's on this page and it says "File cutting machine Pierre Fardoil, c. 1700" 

http://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/tools/toolsmain.html

[Will_D]

...  then that would answer my question of how they heat treated and preserved sharpness.

Somewhere in the back of the grey mush that is my brain:

I seem to recall coating fine details with a ceramic protective paste. Used in gunsmithing to protect sharp pointy bits and for files "all the sharp pointy bits that are the teeth"

The coating protects the sharp ends from oxidative errosion.

This was the way it was before salt baths were invented.

[vtsteam]

Arbalist, what a fantastic site and machines! 

[Arbalist]

Yes, there's some really interesting stuff on there.

[Anzaniste]

Nothing wrong with being in love with your files Steve 

What you need is one of these mate 




And make your own files ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I may have a bash at making one , I do fined the machine interesting ,not to mention its quality craftsmanship , probably forged ,chipped and filed .


Rob

It's that the Musee des Arts et Metiers by any chance? My favourite museum👍

[RobWilson]

It sure is the   Musee des Arts et Metiers  Anzaniste    ,,,,,,,,,,, a cracking place to visit , joint third  on my top five of industrial /technology museum's .

I wonder when the milling machine was invented?

Good question and hard to say , it looks like it was invented around the early to mid 1700s  by a French man working in the clock making industry . Rees's Manufacturing industry 1819 -20 makes no mention of the milling machine(rotary filing machine)  ,and there is also no mention of the milling machine in my 1833 copy of Manufactures in Metal  , so it looks like it was still in it infancy as a machine tool at that time  as lathes ,boring and other machinery are well documented .Although the milling machine was being developed by several engineers on two continents at around the same time . 


The first  milling machine manufactured for sale was produced in the USA , designed by a Mr Frederick Webster Howe in 1848 for the Robbins and Lawrence Company ,Windsor,Vermont .



Joe if you reading this it is probably  down to Mr Frederick Webster Howe that you have weird threads on your rifle parts       (still looking ) 


Rob

[vtsteam]

Windsor, Vermont is close by here. It's where the Precision Museum is. A very small town,  It looks like that mill had travel in only one direction. So I guess you had to reset the work on the carriage to cut a wider cut than the milling cutter.

[RobWilson]

Hi Steve


It looks like there is some side to side adjustment looking at the long gear on the feed shaft .The back gearing would need resting after a Z adjustment.

 Aye I new it was close to you  its been interesting looking into the history of the mill .

Still looking at files 

Rob

[vtsteam]

Rob, I was wondering about that gear -- but couldn't see any ways for the carriage to slide on. But maybe it had a short set that are hidden by the slide.

Funny I just never expect to see anything about Vermont in engineering history, because that's all mostly gone now, and it seems a very rural state. Not like Connecticut or Massachusetts. I have to send away for everything. So it's a big surprise to see it even mentioned at all like that. Fun though!!

I found a little hobbyist lathe mentioned on Tony's lathe site that was also built nearbyin Wilmington,apparently: the Guilder:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/guilder/

It's kind of a cool little does-it-all mchine and accessories. Apparently originating in a little town very nearby. I had no idea Wilmington did anything except serve as a destination for skiers.

[vtsteam]

The files arrived. Thought you all might enjoy seing the packaging job it took to send two 14" files a small tube of bue for scraping, a small bottle of loctite, and some JBWeld, all located in the bottom of the picture!

Three boxes, four sets of expanded foam in bags, 5 foot long string of air filled pouches, bubble wrap, and more! The tube of Dykem blue arrived in its own box with 2 foam packs, It's about the size of your thumb.

The files? They stuck the two of them loose in one plastic bag, so they could rattle around against eachother the whole trip! 

[RobWilson]

Hi Steve

There  are a few words about Vermont and machine tool making in " A history of technology vol 4 1750 -1850 "  , milling machine and the invention of the modern turret lathe all hail from your neck of the woods .   

I dont think its the best /most accurate of drawing of the milling machine , this is a more modern version by a few years ,front view , from Modern machine shop practices 1880 Rose Joshua , another yank that's worth a google  , bloody heavy book 



Nice wee lathe , would be nice if you could fined one 

Rob

[RobWilson]

  thats a fair bit of packaging Steve 


Hows the files ?


Rob 

[vtsteam]

Oh I see how they did it, Rob. I wonder what call they had for creating the turret lathe here? What were they making so much of that they needed something like that. I do recall seeing a demonstration at the Precision Museum of a part being made with one, now that you mention it. Must have been near ten years ago. I'll have to go back there and pay closer attention!

Nice wee lathe , would be nice if you could fined one 

Rob

I love that little lathe. I was musing at one point of building one as a replica because it was made here and is so rare -- the photos are pretty good, and I think I could do it from them. Probably start that about when you start your file making machine.......

Well better finish this lathe I'm on first!

[RobWilson]

Guns Steve ,,,,,,,,the production of guns I do believe is what the turret lathe  was used for . One day I WILL get over for a look see myself , also I fancy  a look at the Saugus Iron Works .



Just had a better look at the lathe page and their is an impressive amount of attachments for it    , yerh it would make a cracking project .

Rob

[vtsteam]

Hows the files ?


Rob

Just as Jonny said. Not as good as they once were. Here's my old(?) -ca. 2001-  Nicholson double cut 14" flat bastard next to one of the new ones. The older one is 5/16" thick, the newer ones, 1/4".



Then they narrowed the profile about 1/8" toward the end to save a little more metal.

And they decided not to really double cut the file like the old one, but just lightly score a single cut file and call it a double cut, as you can see here. Who really needs two cuts after all? 
 
And by not cutting all the way to the end, they could save a little time, too. 

(I've had call to use the very tip of a file on special occasions, now it's not possible)



Ah, maximizing profits and product downsizing. ... all in all, things have changed since the good 'ol days-- even since 2001! 

[philf]

And they decided not to really double cut the file like the old one, but just lightly score a single cut file and call it a double cut, as you can see here. Who really needs two cuts after all? 
 

Steve,

Have a look at

He does the first cut and then files the tops off before doing the second cut.

I'm guessing that's so the file creates small filings - a bit like a roughing mill with staggered teeth.

Phil.

[awemawson]

Steve, that quasi double cut file needs returning to the seller - it's not good enough - don't accept it.

[vtsteam]

Thanks Phil that was a great video I enjoyed seeing it. Quite a lot larger hammer than I imagined being used. It makes me want to try making a file by hand some day.

I think the files I bought haven't been reduced in one direction to improve the file. The older file from the same maker shows even cross cuts. I don't know why these newer ones are different.

Andrew, I've already used both files, trying them out before I took photos for here, and noticed the difference in cut. Guess I should have looked closely before with glasses on. They did cut okay, and I can use them. But just not what I thought would be exact replacements for my other one.

I'm thinking of writing to Nicholson, about these, and see what they have to say. 

[awemawson]

Steve it has to be a manufacturing defect, and more to the point an inspection defect, if there was any. Used or not send them back if only for the sake of the next buyer. When we accept poor standards they have a tendency to become the norm.

[Arbalist]

I'm with Andrew, they don't look very well made at all. I've seen a better cut on cheap files.

[vtsteam]

I've written a letter to Nicholson, who are part of Apex tool group, since they can explain whether this is a manufacturing defect or is due to some other cause/reason. I'm kind of curious now about these files. I'd like to hear what the manufacturer has to say. Could they be seconds? Or even counterfeit? Is it a new production quality? Or a true accidental manufacturing defect? The seller won't know, but the manufacturer will.

[vtsteam]

A bit more investigation with camera (glasses would have helped earlier)......made in Mexico:

[vtsteam]

And an even closer look, thanks to modern digital cameras and software programs to enlarge details:





Genuine Nichulsuns !   


Busted! 

[Arbalist]

I believe I've seen Bahco (Sweden) files with "made in Brazil" on them before.

[vtsteam]

Were they spelled BahcU?   

The files I have are counterfeit. The misspelling is intentional. The U's are shaped to look like O's that have not been fully imprinted. However the ends of the letters are crisply imprinted, not short strikes. So the U was intentional.

A deceptive technicality, as the seller Zoro tools sold them as genuine Nicholson (spelled with O's), and listed the genuine Nicholson part number in its ad.