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Case Hardening Experiments Mod-Up

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vtsteam:

--- Quote from: Will_D on May 12, 2015, 07:02:38 PM ---
However as it is used in a closed container that is heated to dull red in a furnace, forge, BBQ, or with massive propane torch I wouldn't worry about any HCN being produced

--- End quote ---

Actually, in the torch and plunge method (ala Kasenit) it is used in the open and in flame -- that was my concern re. mixing it with other home brew chemistry.

I think "torch and plunge" is far preferrable for a thin case to heated sealed packs, since it wastes very little product, uses little fuel, almost no prep work or equipment, and is very quick.

One step toward developing a torch and plunge case is i believe  creating a molten shell that keps out oxygen. For this, I was thinking of something like borax or sodium carbonate. (Interestingly sodium carbonate's fusion temperature is about 1650 F -- right at the temperature often specified for case hardening.)  But I wasn't considering these fluxes in conjunction with any of the cyanide compounds. I don't like chemistry experiments of this sort where I don't absolutely know the byproducts and effects. :zap:

Instead, I was thinking of some organic carbon source in powder form with either or both of the fluxes. Preferably one with a little nitrogen as well (protein) -- might get a little organic CN action in there after alll. I'm thinking sanded hard leather scraps (powder), since it's traditional in sealed pack hardening. Maybe a rawhide chew toy for dogs.  Don't know if it's ever been tried in a torch and plunge formula. The smell should be interesting!

Might be interesting to try almonds or apple seeds in a case pack too if ferrocyanide compounds are unavailable for that!  :)

awemawson:
Steve try laurel leaves. There is enough cyanide in them to kill sheep that graze on them, as I know to my cost :(

vtsteam:
Andrew, thanks  -- I'm not sure what laurel, there, is... Here we have all kinds of things called laurel, depending on where you live in the country, or what you've planted as an ornamental. Have you got a genus name for  the kind you have?

Re. cyanide containing pure compounds here. The discussion is making me uncomfortable, since my hope was finding safe and readily available ingredients and methods for case hardening as alternatives to those compounds. I think it may be possible to do that, and I hope, with reductions in the need for prolonged high temperatures in a traditional pack case hardening method. It would be nice to have a method which provides a thin case for hardening taps and cutters for occasional use that took a half hour or less, and didn't consume large amounts of fuel in the process. Or require a specialty oven.

That's my hope. I can't stop people from pursuing cyanide chemistry for case hardening, but I hope great care is taken, and the risks are not minimized here in this thread (ie. is cyanide gas more or less dangerous than hydrogen sulfide). And people realize that at elevated temperatures and in combination with other compounds, a little bit of knowledge here is NOT sufficient. Further, as has been mentioned, there may be restrictions on commercial availability now for legitimate reasons.

That is why I started his thread - to find a useful alternative to all of these potential issues. The experimentation I hoped for, and hope to do, is in trying alternatives.

awemawson:
Prunus Lusitanica or Cherry Laurel I believe


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prunus_lusitanica

Yew is another common tree that contains poisonous amounts of cyanide compounds

http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/atoz/taxus_baccata.htm

vtsteam:
We don't have that, Andrew, but we do have a lot of wild black cherry trees growing on our land, which could be tried. I think though that if I did, I'd only want to try that in a sealed pack, again, even though "natural".

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