Author Topic: Picking it up.  (Read 7726 times)

Offline DavidA

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Picking it up.
« on: April 19, 2015, 05:41:45 AM »
With the (apparent) growing popularity of electronic lead screw drives I got around to wondering...

If for some reason you have to change the tool,  can you 'pick up' the thread in a similar manner to the way you can with a conventional leadscrew ?

Dave.

Note .. Edited to correct typo in heading.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 09:41:08 AM by DavidA »

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Pickik it up.
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 09:19:12 AM »
In my case I was planning on having a threading dial, and of course a half nut, since I see my particular lathe as a manual lathe, and the "electronic leadscrew" is actually only a replacement for the change gears. In fact, I'm not really comfortable with the term. To me an electronic leadscrew would basically be a single axis CNC lathe.

If you want to back up the threads, you could either switch off the encoder manually, or back it automatically by switching the direction input on the drive. That could be the same switch as reverse on the spindle drive. You'd have to make sure the spindle was completely stopped before switching direction electrically. But you should anyway.

You could also cut the thread manually with a handle on the spindle, because my particular design does not sample spindle rate, but spindle position, so is accurate at any speed, including big variations from hand cranking.

In fact I tested my new encoder without a motor drive against a stepper by twisting the encoder shaft. The stepper position and speed followed at whatever reduction rate was set.

If I set pitch to 1 it was just like a selsyn motor, mimicking the speed and position of the encoder shaft (other than direction). It was fun!

EDIT: well now I see it says "change the tool" re. picking up the thread. In that case, once you change the tool (and I assume you mean the position of the tip in the Z axis) you have to basically re-position the tip in the thread either manually (if you can rotate the leadscrew by hand -- and on my semi-manual lathe I will be able to) or by jogging only the leadscrew electronically. Spindle stationary. In either case you need to take up any backlash by making the move in the cutting direction.

This is the electronic geartrain equivalent of releasing the gears from the leadscrew, and positioning the cutting tip in the thread in a conventional change gear lathe.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:05:39 AM by vtsteam »
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline awemawson

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 10:36:07 AM »
Would you not be able to pick up the thread by manipulating the top slide? Let the electronics drive the tool half way (say) down the length of the thread, but displaced in X so not engaged, and then using an eyeglass adjust the said top slide so that the tool is in the correct Z position. (Top slide set parallel to Z axis) Obviously you have to do a few iterations advancing X as you get closer.

I cheat of course and use indexable inserts, so no resetting  :lol:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 03:32:38 PM by awemawson »
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Offline RussellT

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2015, 12:59:35 PM »
I wondered about having a stop to reset the tool to the start position,  setting the spindle to an index mark and then starting the lathe with the lead screw "engaged".

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2015, 04:17:39 PM »
I guess the answer to the original question is "yes" you can!

Hitting the inhibit signal (limit switch, emergency stop button, or a drive engage switch, etc. ) would be the simplest and fastest way of disconnecting the spindle and leadscrew and make for easiest repositioning by hand on my lathe, since it will have a leadscrew handle.

Also, the assumption of the question was how to handle a non-indexed tool replacement, out of position. The situation can arise with an indexable tool as well if you goof up and move the carriage disengaged, or the part needs to be moved, or moves, or for other dumb reasons yet to be mentioned!  :lol:  :lol:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidA

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 04:20:32 PM »
Not being completely trusting of software driven electronics I also wondered what the risk was of the stepper motor missing a beat or two mid cut and causing the leadscrew to 'de-sync' with the chuck.

I expect such a thing would cause the thread to be stripped off.

I vividly remember the chaos that followed the failure of our Guildemeister encoder.

The more I think of it the more attractive normal gears appear to be.

Dave.


VT,  Posts crossed.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 04:24:37 PM »
Exactly the same result as would happen with any stepper driven CNC machine. And no attempt here to convince anyone to give up gears. Particularly if you own a QC gearbox, and/or aren't actually building your own lathe.

And I guess whether you trust software and electronics is probably affected by whether you wrote the software and designed the electronics. If you did, presumably you wouldn't be satisfied with the performace and reliability until you were satisfied with the performance and reliability.
Plus there's always the option of Plan B!  :lol:  :lol:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidA

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 04:52:31 PM »
Valid points,  every one.

I am actually building my own lathe. Not a big(ish) one like yours ,  but Len Masons 'baby lathe' as described in his book.
I started this about five years ago, and recently dragged it out from it's hiding place to re-assess the state of play.  Then the fine weather came so it went back for another rest.
The bed, headstock and tail stock are done, just the leadscrew, saddle and all the twiddly bits to do.
I now have three project I can be getting along with when it rains.

And as for QC gear boxes. The Denford Viceroy 280 Synchro (12 speed,  lots of gears) is still awaiting the single to three phase rotary convertor to get it running. that is dependent upon me going back to work for a while to pay for it.

So I watch your build with great interest.

Dave. :whip:

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 05:02:28 PM »
Valid points,  every one.

I am actually building my own lathe. Not a big(ish) one like yours ,  but Len Masons 'baby lathe' as described in his book.


Cool David!!! :thumbup:  :clap:

any pics......?
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidA

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 05:11:11 PM »
I'll take a couple and post them.

Dave.

Offline bhowden

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 08:55:30 PM »
Re missing steps.  I have not seen a lot of discussion on acceleration /deceleration profiles with respect to the steppers.  If you assume the lead screw always "engages" with the spindle stopped you might be safe enough assuming that the inertia of the spindle will be higher than the lead screw and the stepper will never be asked to change speeds faster than it is capable of but if you engage /disengage the lead screw while the spindle is turning I expect you will have some issues.  The brief look around I took shows the subject can be quite complex if done correctly but there are some assumptions that make the problem more approachable (eg assume linear acceleration and use conservative values)  The other issue with engaging and disengaging is going to be back lash if you are changing directions.  Possibly an issue with threading without a thread dial, depending on technique.

Brian

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 09:57:37 AM »
Brian, this is an intended replacement for change gears, and it will use a threading dial and halfnut for engagement with the leadscrew turning. I like to find things out for myself. I suspect we all do, once involved in a project.

And I always treat my projects as experiments. Not certainties They generally lead to new discoveries, at least for me. Often through Plan B .....and C. And in doing that they quantify theory where it does indeed apply -- somethng rare online. It's easy to argue a generalized internet theory. But hard to prove it applies in a specific case.

If at any point I find it doesn't work, I'll either work my way around it, or change direction. Not a loss either way.  Personally I think this experiment is worth a try.  :beer:
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 10:31:06 AM by vtsteam »
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidA

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 02:26:41 PM »
VT,

A few pics of the Mason baby lathe during construction.

The tailstock assembly has been pulled apart as it need some modification.

Most of the assembly of the bed was done,  then I discovered that the reference bar (1/2" silver steel) wasn't quite straight.

Dave


Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 02:35:02 PM »
I've never seen that one before, David. How big is it?

By reference bar do you mean the bar  in the headstock, or a different bar, like a straightedge?

How do you use the reference bar?
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidA

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 03:48:19 PM »
VT,

The lathe is 16.5" overall. I think there is 1.5" between the bed and the centre line.

The whole thing is built up from 2" and 2.5" X 1/4" BMS, Except the headstock bars which are 1" x 1" BMS

I had to reduce the size of the pictures dramatically and so they don't expand very well. But it is a fully functioning lathe. Full set of change wheels for screw cutting; naturally only the finer threads. Back gear is there.
It has a dog clutch on the leadscrew. If you want to fit it.
The mandrel has a Number 1 Morse taper,  as has the tailstock. A back plate is also described.

The reference bar is that length of 1/2" silver steel that is sticking through the headstock. The whole machine depends upon this bar,  and it must be true. Mine, it turns out,  wasn't.

Mason goes into great detail on how to align the bed. You may find his method useful.

Basically you start with only one bolt through the front headstock bar; the top one. At this stage the holes in the front side  plate only are drilled, and the top hole of the front headstock bar along with it's matching hole in the back plate.

You can now slip a bolt through the top hole and lightly nip it up. You will realise that you can now pivot this headstock bar around the bolt. The reference bar will rise and fall.

You lay the bed on top of the side plates.
Put the rear headstock bar in position and feed the reference bar through both bars,  as in  the picture.

Now comes the clever bit.

You move the bar up and down until it is exactly parallel with the bed. He uses blocks and feeler gauges to get it spot on at both ends of the bed. It could be better done with a dial guage mounted on a sliding block. But his method works fine.

When it is spot on,  you use clamps to lock the side plates against the headstock bars. Re check the reference.

Then drill through the other three holes through the head stocks and the rear plate. Bolt them up.
You centre line is now fixed in the vertical.

You then fix the bed plate to the rear side plate with one screw; the rear one nearest the chuck end.

Using a couple of spacers you lay the whole thing on it's side,  resting on the edge of the bed plate, on a flat surface and pivot the body around the screw while checking for parallel between the reference and the surface plate.
When this is parallel it means that you have the edge of the bed true to the centre line of the lathe.

Now it is true in both axis.

Clamp up the bed to the side plates and scribe underneath the bed on each side of each side plate. (blue it first)

Remove the bed, drill the remaining screw holes in the bed  plate (from the underneat face, carefully between the lines you scribed. Refit he bed with it's one screw and, after checking again, drill down into the edges of the side plates, tap and then countersink the bed. screw it down.

Job done.

I strongly recommend getting a copy of this book even if you don't make the lathe. it is full of good ideas.

Oh yes,  You can then align the tailstock on it's base by sliding it onto the end of the bar. If your bar is straight, it must then be in alignment with the headstock.

I now it may seem complicated the way I describe it,  but really it is quite logical and easy. You just need to be careful.

Dave.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 04:30:31 PM »
No problem understanding, David it makes perfect sense! I like it. Also it could prove useful some day for a different situation.  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 04:32:23 PM »
David, have you thought of a way to correct your lathe, yet?
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidA

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 06:57:34 PM »
Not yet.

I'm making the most of the improving weather to get on with outside jobs. I'll come back to the projects when the weather turns.

My biggest problem with working in the shed was having to continually move lots of bits of wood around. I am nearly done making an extension to the shed that will accommodate this and other 'clutter;.

Dave

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Picking it up.
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 10:43:51 PM »
Ahh. Know the feeling!  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg