Fight against annoying power cuts!

[mattinker]

Surely a simple solenoid holding the end of the spring in series with a bi-metallic strip. Hold solenoid in manually when starting, the generator will then continue holding it, and drop out on over heat.

I don't see it, the idea is that it cuts when over heating, this requires contacts that open over a certain temperature, they won't need holding as long as it's below a certain temperature. My proposition of a small motor that pulls the stop using a a link when a contact closes over a certain temperature (bi metal strip, small "klixon" type switch or simple cheap temp cut out switch.) does this without having to re-arm at start up!

Regards; Matthew

[PekkaNF]

Diesel may have a valve that is kept open (fuel flowing) when energized. When it is not energized, spring closes the plunger and fuel supply to the injection pump is cut. Therefore diesels tend to be either no electric power at all (and no such valve or means of operating it) or all the works, when it is no problem at all.

The problem starts if you start picking features that don't lead to them naturally.

Petrol engine has always the sparky parts....and needs a contact.

What I have against wallwart and such that they are normal consumer products made to survive warranty period at most in cosy living room and therefore I would not trust them outside of the house on anything more demanding than entertainment. I don't see point of downgrading an emergency generator reliability. But this is my personal take and should not be taken as an offense.

Pekka

[awemawson]

As Pekka says, the fuel rack is pulled out to run and returns by spring to stop. My big new generator has a large solenoid doing exactly this, but is 12v off the starting system. I'm advocating a solenoid rated at whatever Steve's Lister clone provides (110?) so no extras bits other than the solenoid.

This has the advantage that the system is 'tested' each time you start, so if the bi-metallic strip contacts have oxidised you know. If you rely on something working only in a (hopefully rare) fault situation it may or may not work ! I suppose it's my background supporting critical systems that makes me think this way 

[mattinker]

Diesel may have a valve that is kept open (fuel flowing) when energized. When it is not energized, spring closes the plunger and fuel supply to the injection pump is cut. Therefore diesels tend to be either no electric power at all (and no such valve or means of operating it) or all the works, when it is no problem at all.

The problem starts if you start picking features that don't lead to them naturally.


What I have against wallwart and such that they are normal consumer products made to survive warranty period at most in cosy living room and therefore I would not trust them outside of the house on anything more demanding than entertainment. I don't see point of downgrading an emergency generator reliability. But this is my personal take and should not be taken as an offense.

Pekka

Steve's diesel engine doesn't have an electric stop (unless I've missed something!), which mean that the stop is mechanical therefore, the stop lever needs to be pulled in the event of overheating. This is why I proposed a simple electric motor screw set-up, simple to implicate on a purely mechanical engine!

No offense taken! I'd just like to point out that problems of built in obsolescence don't really apply to backup generators as they don't run for many hours!

Regards, Matthew

[awemawson]

Photo attached of the fuel solenoid arrangement on my Lister. Steve's won't have the solenoid, but the arrangement of spring loaded fuel rack will be similar I suspect

[vtsteam]

Oh, like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of electromechanical solutions and all of them will work for their owner preferences. But my preference (only for me) would be for the fusible plug or link and spring. I just meant that if you went electromechanical, I thought Andrew's design was one I liked.

But I'm a mechanical guy by preference, not an electronic guy, which is why I like this forum. I take joy in mechanical solutions to things, and the simpler, and the more they use common or recycled materials, the better (for me, only).

Not saying I don't use and like electronics (I own 2 cnc machines, built one). But my heart is in devices made of scrap metal and put together using hand tools, if I can manage it. If I had iron ore on my property, I'd probably be starting with that!

[PekkaNF]

Got CAV single fileter unit.

It has four unions I wonder what are the alternative ways of using them and which one would work best?

Pekka

[awemawson]

That's the exactly the same filter as fitted to my 3 cylinder Lister generator 

[DavidA]

I suspect the four ports are to give you the option of connecting the supply/discharge to either side (depending on your pipework) without having to bend the pipes back on themselves.  You just blank off the ports you don't need.

But I may be wrong.

Dave.

[awemawson]

Yes I can confirm that is the case

[PekkaNF]

Sounds leggit. Thank you. It has two blanks fitted. Never really paid antention of the fiter fittings, other than put incoming and outgoing ports right way. I tought that there may be some other clever options. Like there is a "one-pipe" system for oil furnace burner here. It has one pipe from the tank, but there is filter and water/air separator unit that has in/out ports for the burner.

I'm thinkking of mounting this fuelfiler unit such way that bleed screw becomes highest point of the pipe work. All in line of the fuel feed line straight to the injection pump. Then one continous return line from the injector back to the tank.

I have been reading that there is available two different type of filter for this one "red" 30 micron and "blue" 10 micron, which former seems to be often used for gravity fed system. I have seen some talk about even finer and more specialized filters....I don't think I need to venture there with this engine.

Other thing is a fuel tank. Original one is a bit too small. I went to check cheap engine external tanks, but they were very basic and looked like would lack durability. I check the innards and:
* Caps had very basic seals, not even sure if they would survive diesel
* Suction pipe was rigid corrugated plastic pipe, no weight, mesh or anything
* No provision for breather

This looks really nice, but really expensive too for small cheap diesel:
http://www.vetus-shop.com/vetus-fuel-tank-diesel-25-litre-p-1783.html

Pekka

[awemawson]

On mine, rather unusually the injector leak off pipe runs back into one of the tappings on the filter rather than back to the tank in it's own pipe.  Looks to be original and seems to work, however I think that originally it had a gravity tank rather than the lower level pumped one that I will be using. I think that it's a case of observing and seeing what happens.  If need be there is a spare 1/4 bsp input to the tank that I could route it to.

[vtsteam]

Pekka, Vetus is a familiar name from back when I was a boat builder. But that tank price is outrageous!

I hate to tell you this because you'll think I'm nuts, but back in my ultralight flying and building days, we just made tanks out of heavy wall polyethylene (polythene-Br.?) portable carrying gas (petrol) tanks. There was a round barrel shaped variety (Eagle brand) that seemed a lot stiffer and thicker walled than the usual rectangular jerry can shape. Anyway, the Vetus must be close to $300 Stateside, and a gerry can would set you back $15 to $30, and both are made of the same material.

There are grommet mount fuel shut-off fittings that you can add to a portable plastic tank to attach the fuel line to.  You drill a specified hole size in the tank and put a special grommet around the tank fitting and push it into the hole where it locks in place. The tank should be heavy wall, where you add this -- some of the latest fuel tanks are paper thin in the sides.

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/fuel-valves


(see tank mount valves near bottom of page

re. Vetus tank : The main thing that degrades polyethylene is sunlight, so if you protect it, it should last forever. Most fuel tanks are black poly, but the Vetus isn't even that! Most gerry cans are red (petrol) yellow (diesel) or blue (kerosene -paraaffin) here.  If you spray paint poly tank with black paint, it doesn't stick well (can be scratched) but in a stationary use, will be unlikely to be disturbed, so should last. Or you could encase it in something else, like tin or wood.

[PekkaNF]

Pekka, Vetus is a familiar name from back when I was a boat builder. But that tank price is outrageous!

And that was a pretty good price and accessories.....but the price is way too much because I'm not a wall street banker.

I hate to tell you this because you'll think I'm nuts, but back in my ultralight flying and building days, we just made tanks out of heavy wall polyethylene (polythene-Br.?) portable carrying gas (petrol) tanks. There was a round barrel shaped variety (Eagle brand) that seemed a lot stiffer and thicker walled than the usual rectangular jerry can shape. Anyway, the Vetus must be close to $300 Stateside, and a gerry can would set you back $15 to $30, and both are made of the same material.

Nope all that makses sense. I have been looking spare/auxiliar tanks they seem to be made out of HDPE, some with thick walls (regulation on EU). Wish I could find one with two caps or find a way of mounting unions on them.

There are grommet mount fuel shut-off fittings that you can add to a portable plastic tank to attach the fuel line to.  You drill a specified hole size in the tank and put a special grommet around the tank fitting and push it into the hole where it locks in place. The tank should be heavy wall, where you add this -- some of the latest fuel tanks are paper thin in the sides.

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/fuel-valves


(see tank mount valves near bottom of page

That is one new idea to me, how does the crommet thing works? Just correct size hole, squese Viton gromment on and valve stem in?

re. Vetus tank : The main thing that degrades polyethylene is sunlight, so if you protect it, it should last forever. Most fuel tanks are black poly, but the Vetus isn't even that! Most gerry cans are red (petrol) yellow (diesel) or blue (kerosene -paraaffin) here.  If you spray paint poly tank with black paint, it doesn't stick well (can be scratched) but in a stationary use, will be unlikely to be disturbed, so should last. Or you could encase it in something else, like tin or wood.

My tank will not be much in the sun, and those spare tanks have black exerior, but it's all nice to know.

I have been wondering those color codes, I see all color of spare tanks, even orange and new is blue (says alcohol/gas proof) but use seems to be random. In the army there were some colr codes, I was mostly conserned about drinking water. One color was red jerry cans. But cann't remember what they had.

I'm thinkking of using boat aux fuel tank (HDPE) and go trough all seals and building the in/out pipe & breather unions. What do you think?

Plan B is to accept that I need a fuel pump and make one of these:
http://www.hsaoy.com/aggregaatit/Lisavarusteet/PA_Polttoainejarjestelmat/kuvat/PA.20JD.jpg

Pekka

[awemawson]

I bought a tank off ebay that is rotationally moulded black HDPE with fittings moulded in. Surplus from a stand by generator manufacturer who has changed his design / layout. 60 litres so roughly 2 foot square and a foot tall.

Chap has several and accepted a lower offer than his asking price

[vtsteam]

Tank looks good, Andrew.

Pekka, re.

That is one new idea to me, how does the crommet thing works? Just correct size hole, squese Viton gromment on and valve stem in?

The grommet pushes into the hole in a plastic tank. It has a groove around the circumference that the plastic fits into. Then you push the metal tank valve fitting into the grommet. It has a locking barb on the end, and is sized so that it applies pressure to the plastic in the groove  and that seals the tank. The barb prevents it from coming out again.

[PekkaNF]

That tank looks good. It is a about size of my generator

VT. Than you, that's what I thought. And apparently it is very reliable.

Have to see if I can find something like that here first, if not then I have to order from the web. Unless, I'll come up with a cunning plan before. I'm going to see some spare diesel tanks today after the work.

I have to run generator about an hour, check how it works and then I probably change the oil and check up how to fit new fuel filter and works. have to get enough stuff to have something to in the next few days.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

Pekka, I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier (brain is aging) but my Indian Listeroid diesel uses gravity feed diesel through a fuel filter (and not much gravity, either -- the original tank is mounted on the engine, so we're talking maybe 100 mm head pressure).

I could have given you the filter numbers and photographed mine because it appears to be a stock Delco (I believe) filter housing and filter. I actually forgot it had a fuel filter. I think it's quite a bit smaller than the one you purchased, so you should have no problems -- assuming flow is even less restricted.

Incidentally, with a case as large as my engine's (and pure splash lubrication) there are all sorts of low tech solutions to adding a crankcase lube oil filter -- including adding a baffle to the sump door plate (yes it actually has a side door!) filled with filter material and holes at the bottom through which splashed oil drains back into the crankcase.

[vtsteam]

ps. I don't like too large a tank on an emergency diesel generator because I don't want a lot of fuel to age in the tank between uses. And a large tank with only a small amount of fuel in it tends to go bad quickly. A small tank keeps fuel in better condition longer, and can be drained easily if need be, and the fuel replaced.

I think maybe a smart Idea for more capacity, would be to use a removable 5 gallon gerry can style tank with a quick disconnect that doubles as an occasional fuel source for other frequently used equipment. That would use up old fuel and keep generator fuel fresh.

Then you could maybe just plug it into the engine when needed to extend run time. It saves having to pour fuel into a small tank during a run (always a problem with a built in tank -- you have to shut down the generator and wait for it to cool to refuel).

[PekkaNF]

Thanks. I appreciate your effort.

Originally this has about 2-3 litre tank that has fuel filter inside. Very compact, but not best place to replace.

I tought of using the original tank and having a feeder tank connceted to it with electric pump and level switch of some sort.

Then I tought of T-connector between original fuel tank and auxiliar connection, but when I removed the tank I found out there was just over 1" stump of rubber fuel line between fuel tap and injectioon pump. Unless I can source fuel grade T-line, this is not feasible.

I bought four jerry cans, when they arrived, I was surpriced to find that they were german NATO-cans and very nice, but none of my hardware fits them! They have a bigger opening that others I have seen. Can't use spout etc....

Have to check some options tomorow.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Got fuel line quick disconnect and tried to mock up parts together, but space is tight.

Pekka, I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier (brain is aging) but my Indian Listeroid diesel uses gravity feed diesel through a fuel filter (and not much gravity, either -- the original tank is mounted on the engine, so we're talking maybe 100 mm head pressure).

I could have given you the filter numbers and photographed mine because it appears to be a stock Delco (I believe) filter housing and filter. I actually forgot it had a fuel filter. I think it's quite a bit smaller than the one you purchased, so you should have no problems -- assuming flow is even less restricted.

Do you have a can/cardridge type filter or in-line can? Smaller filter would solve here some problems. I may need to go for smaller filters, if I want to use original tank. I had the idea of let go with original tank and use that space for filter.

I don't expect much problem with diesel oil aging, but having a small fixed tank would be nice to have sometimes. Trying to fiqure if I could connct two tanks parallel and isolate auxiliary tank with quick disconnect. I have one idea that needs testing.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

Here. Pekka:

[vtsteam]

It was tough locating that filter, oddly emough, on the web. Must be unusual here in the States.

But I did find it in the UK:

http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Cartridge-Fuel-Filter-Assembly-Late-Type.html

[Manxmodder]

Steve,I can confirm that that type and size of filter does seem quite commonly used here in the UK and British Isles. Also see a lot of similar units fitted to central heating oil storage tanks around these shores......OZ.

[PekkaNF]

Thank you. That gave me anoher idea - heating oil filter

Thre are plenty of different heating oil filters here and they are very nice size and pretty affordable.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/heating-oil-filter

I just wonder how efficient they are. I have one and change it about after 1500 - 2000 l of heating oil. The filter element seems to be about same size than this Yanmar and if I remember right it should be changed after 200 h of use i.e. about 200 litres of filtered oil. This would suggest finer filtering or more conservative dimenssioning.

I found some this type material that has some indication;
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heating-oil-filters/3137098/

But lot of hardware store filers have very vague indication of filering efficiency. I see if I can mount these. Something to ponder when wife is at work.

Pekka