MadModder
Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: sbwhart on February 28, 2009, 03:26:25 PM
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Elbow Engine
:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
OK the project begins, but in truth it started a few weeks ago when John showed me his engine, from that moment :proj:.
Since then I’ve bean exercising my little grey cell :smart: , had a good search through that other site for comments and ideas, and got a set of drawings, had a long discussion with John had a real close look at his engine. Went away did a bit more thinking, made loads of notes, made loads of sketches, got involved with a thread on that other site to try and glean some ideas and comments out of them, collected together bits of material that looked like an Elbow Engine.
Drawing of engine http://john-tom.com/MyPlans/Steam%20Engines/ElbowEngine.pdf
Animation shows how they work. http://80.177.213.1/images/anim.gif
My stash af elbow material
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/000_0004-1.jpg)
And know I’m ready to cut metal:-
Roughing out flywheel rim.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/000_0006.jpg)
With a bit of luck, help and encouragement from you guys :poke: :wack: :whip: I’m going to try and refine the design so that it will be possible for most people to make a running engine and keep their sanity. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
And have a bit of fun along the way. :lol:
This will require experimentation, so I’m going to make bits for more than one engine, if one idea doesn’t work I can try something else with the rest of the bits.
The nastiness with this engine comes from:-
Mr Square, Mrs Friction, and Miss Alignment.
These are the things to try:-
1:- Fit roller bearings in the rotating cylinder.
2:- Fit PTFE O rings on the pistons to act as piston rings.
3:- Refine the piston bending jig, to ensure a dead square bend.
4:- Develop a machining method that will get Mr Square and Miss Alignment behaving themselves.
5:- As a bit of a long shot develop some sort of flexible elbow coupling i.e. spring or rubber.
6:- Try some magic Pixy dust as a lubricant. (Zinc Stearate).
Some of these ideas may sound a bit crazy but one thing I’ve learnt even when an experiment fails you can learn something that can lead to an improvement or a solution.
There’s no such thing as an idea that isn’t worth trying.
So you guys in the collective :borg: please throw in your two pennyworths, good and bad comments will be equally appreciated,
and lets have plenty of humour. :lol:
Cheers
:wave:
Stew
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Stew,
I can knock a few bits off your short list, to save you some :bang:.
1) I had already looked at fitting thin wall ball races, and came to the conclusion it wouldn't be any great benefit. BUT, I did look at fitting a thrust race at either end, based upon bicycle principles, loose balls running in grooved channels, and came to the conclusion that if ever I built a 7 or 9 cylinder one (14 or 18 cylinder count), that would be incorporated. But it would mean machining running clearances of around 0.002" or under, just so the cylinder could rotate and still remain almost airtight.
2) Someone has already tried it, and it caused more problems than benefits.
3) Forget it, you only have to fart near the elbows and they will go out of square. Just bend them to a rough right angle, and fine tweak as you go along.
4) This is good.
5) Forget it, these engines work by pushing the opposing cylinder around, and have to stay in perfect synchronisation, any flex at all will just lock it up solid.
6) Try it, it can only do one of two things, better or worse.
So, I have just got rid of 66.666% of your design ideas, so everything should now go a lot easier for you :clap:
I think we are already taking bets on how far you can throw it, any other bets we can take up as well?
I was expecting you to call today, and I had rooted out an elbow for you to play around with, practicing getting it square. :lol:
Bogs
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Hi John
Thanks for your imput :thumbup: I'd already floated the ideas on that other site, with no fead back at all !!!!!!!.
I thought that some of these ideas would have bean tried before so went fishing for comments.
Bending the elbows:- what I was thinking of was a block of brass to act as a heat sink, machine a slot and a step at right angles with a pin at point of bend:- heat the elbow and band it by eye, clamp it in the block and heat the bend again and let it cool slowly to normalize out the stresses.
The material I've got for the fly wheel is a bit small it will end up about 20mm under size do you think this will be a bad thing. I'm planning for appearance to have a brass/ally composit fly wheel.
I was comming round today after lunch but my boss high jacked me to go round our daughters. I'll see you tomorrow afternoon.
Just for interest for the Guys could you add the U tube video you have of your engine running.
Cheers
:wave:
Stew
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'Magic Bog Water' ??
Eric
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Complete with stroboscopic effects.
Bogs
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'Magic Bog Water' ??
Eric
Yes I was wondering about that?
I have been experimenting with vinegar over the last few days. I'll start a new thread on it with a couple of pic's tomorrow.
Is the magic Bog water anything similar John?
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Elbow Engine
:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
So you guys in the collective :borg: please throw in your two pennyworths, good and bad comments will be equally appreciated,
and lets have plenty of humour. :lol:
Cheers
:wave:
Stew
Good luck with the project Stew...... :headbang:
Humour....... :scratch:
Elbow.....
Funny bone......
Humerus..... :thumbup:
Hmmm..... Sorry...... I`ll get me coat..... ::)
David.
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I was looking at John's clips the other day and came across that elbow engine.. and I have to say.. I sat there with my mouth open all 10 times I watched it. :jaw:
It is likely the coolest, crazy bizarre thing I have ever seen. I get it.... but WOW.
I cant wait to see another one undertaken.
I feel like a cave man seeing a I-Phone or something...
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Fly wheel:-
I like the idea of a composite fly wheel with a brass rim and an ally hub. At the scrap yard I found a chunk of brass that looked about the right size to make two hubs, and whilst there I spotted a pile of scrap pistons, that looked just right for the hub.
Rim
The chunk of brass was trued up with a DTI in the big 6” four jaw chuck and the bore cleaned up, and a small stepped turned in it to locate the hub, the diameter was cleaned up and the rim parted off, it was then trued up again and the parted face cleaned up.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1155.jpg)
At this point I realised that there was not enough metal to make two rims :hammer: OK I’ll have to look for something else for the second rim.
Hub
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1157.jpg)
First job was to run a ruler over the piston to check if there was enough meat to do what I wanted, there was, so it was roughly trued up in the big four jaw, faced up and the diameter turned up oversize to the rim. It was then parted off in: this was done in stages using the tool to open out the grooves to give clearance at the sides to stop the tool getting fouled with swarf because it was such a deep part off.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1159.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1160.jpg)
The pistons machined more like free machining mild steel forming nice chips, a small squirt of bog water improving the surface finish.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1164.jpg)
That all for now got some domestic duties to attend to next posting in a couple of days.
Cheers
:wave:
Stew
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Stew,
Congratulations, the hardest bit is always starting the project for me! :hammer:
Great post.
Nick
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:offtopic:
Found these little beuties whilst on a walk along a disuesed railway track, don't know what I'll do with them but I'm shure they will have a use.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1165.jpg)
OK back on topic John gave me a pully from a old Myford lathe to make the rim for another fly wheel out off, at first I thought he'd bowled me a googly (swerve ball) the skin was real tough stuff I think it was cast steel but when I got through the skin it machined lovely
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1168.jpg)
To part the rim off I used my big beast tip parting tool my machine moaned and groaned a bit, but I'm used to her ways, know when to ignore here and when to take notice:-
I treat the wife the same way. :lol:
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1171.jpg)
The parting tool is too big for my tool post so I improvice with a clamping set it work very well.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1173.jpg)
Need to turn another hub up from a another piston than I'll be ready to mill the spokes out on the circular table I'm looking forward to that :headbang:
Cheers
Stew
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Stew,
Would I give you something you couldn't machine. Remember, you only live around the corner, and I saw a few steel pipes when I came round to visit. I ain't fast enough to run away any more.
Nice flywheel rim, and a good fix for pseudo toolpost.
I have some flywheels to make in a couple of days.
John
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Hey Stew,
Have you seen how much scrap John collects, leaving pipes out in plain view is just plain teasing him :lol:
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Nice tool holder you came up with there Stew.
Something I'll have to remember. :)
Bernd
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Stew,
A bit :offtopic:, but general interest.
Your pic of the rail spikes reminded me of the time we did a model boat display on the cooling pits for the foundry at Crewe railway works.
As I was walking around the shunting yards, I picked up one of those spikes.
Of course it was an open day and we had all the railway anoraks there. When a large gang of them had gathered to watch us display, I started an impromptu auction and got 10 squid for it, for our favourite charity, the R.N.L.I.
I should have looked around for a few more.
John
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Of course it was an open day and we had all the railway anoraks there. When a large gang of them had gathered to watch us display, I started an impromptu auction and got 10 squid for it, for our favourite charity, the R.N.L.I.
I should have looked around for a few more.
He He. On that basis I picked up 40 squids worth, there was a load more but my pockets were a bit full:- how much do you recon they'd go for if we spun a yarn that they came from the original Rainhill track :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Cheers
Stew
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a small squirt of bog water improving the surface finish.
Hello.
Now that I´m no native speaker and because I couldn´t find a good translation for "bog water".
What is it ?
Thanks,Ralph
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Hi Ralph
Its extracted from fish oil otherwise known as WD40.
But keep it quite I'm trying to keep it secret :lol:
Cheers
Stew
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Fly Wheel Hub
To clean up the back face a 10 mm Dia mandrel was turned up and the disc mounted on it and the face cleaned up with a bit of “Bog Water” (WD 40) whilst on the mandrel both sides of the disc were given a polish with some scotch bright.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1179.jpg)
Now for the rotary table work: - My small Vertex table can be used with index plates, but I chose not to use the plate.
The wheel was drawn up on CAD and the off sets coordinates and angle marked on the drawing, as I’m making two wheels of slightly different sizes each size fly wheel was drawn up.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/ElbowFlyWheelHub.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1183.jpg)
As I don’t have a chuck to fit my table, I modified the arbour used to skim up the back to fit in my table. The table has a M2 taper in the centre, the mandrel was trued up in the lathe and the cross slide moved to 1.5 deg and a short step turned on the mandrel to fit the table, and a M5 hole drilled an tapped to take a cap screw through the bottom of the table. A rough circle of wood was used as a sacrificial plate; the holes in the wood were on free offer when the wood was bought.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1185.jpg)
A centre was put into the mill and wound hard into the centre in the end of the mandrel and the Table and the X and Y datum’s zeroed.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1191.jpg)
Working round clockwise the corner holes were drilled 6.5 dia
With an 8mm dia slot drill the straight sides were machined in one cut:- taking care to feed the cutter the correct way.
Followed by the curve sides.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1193.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1194.jpg)
The hub will be shrunk into the rim :thumbup:
That was fun :D
Cheers
:wave:
Stew
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Nicely done Stew! :clap:
Thanks for showing..... :thumbup:
David.
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Juno what..... I'm getting fed up of people making that look so damn easy! ::)
One of these days I'm going to try it out and find I can do it!!! :lol:
Good job Stew :thumbup: Looks like your making a b-line for the fun bit..... Elbows! :dremel:
:ddb:
Ralph.
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Having seen it first hand this afternoon, the piccies don't do it justice.
Nice one Stew.
Bogs
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Pretty darn nice work there Stew. :thumbup:
Must have given you a good feeling when done. :ddb:
Bernd
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Stew,
That looks fantastic. :clap: :bow: How are you going to shrink it in?
Cheers,
Nick
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Thanks Chaps
I really enjoyed doing it apart from those T bolts it was the first time I'd used my new mill and it was a joy to use, very pleased with it.
Cheers
Stew
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Shrinking Rims onto Hubs
Decided to get all scientific and calculate the expansion of the Rims.
At first I calculated the expansion on a temp change of 300°C at this point my boss started to get interested in what I was doing (usually a bad sign) but no, when I explained she said why not put it in the oven, a quick check and the oven would go up to 250°C then she floored me and suggested I put the hub in the freezer that would give at least a temp difference of 260°C, another quick calculation and that would give a size difference of at least 0.3mm (0.012”). As a rough rule of thumb for any of you Chaps who want to try this, temp difference of 250° will give an increase in size of about 3%.
I could have used high strength Loctite but hay where the fun in that
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1222.jpg)
Elbows
I bought four 12” length of ground ¼” Ø mild steel bar I checked them for size with a mic and found that they were bang on size. I then put a ¼ drill down the ends of some brass bar to use has bending handles.
I then parted of 8 lengths of bar 70mm long keeping them all the same length as well as possible.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1198.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1209.jpg)
A quick search of my tool stash came up trumps with this little beauty, I don’t know where it came from but if I see a bit of discarded tool steel on my trips to the scrap yard or any were else I never pass it by.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1202.jpg)
As I like to work in metric a did a quick sketch of the elbow in mm with the sizes I wanted to work too.
I put a piece of bar in the drill chuck to act as a stop, so that I could zero the machine dials up so that when I’d got the first one done I wouldn’t have to do any more measuring. As I would be winding the tool up and down the grooves I worked off the dial zero for one end and a crayon mark at the other.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1203.jpg)
To bend the elbows I decided to use the method John had recommended, I set up my little gas torch in a retort stand, heated the elbow in the wasted area to cherry red and bent it roughly square round a short stub of ¼ bar held in the vice. As I was using mild steel I quenched them in water.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1201.jpg)
Now for the tricky bit getting them square:- Using a 1*2*3 block as a square and holding it up to a strong light I checked each elbow for square-ness, and kept tweaking them with the bending handles until they looked pretty good, I’ll have another go at getting them spot on when I’ve skimmed them to length when I start to assemble the engines.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1200.jpg)
Cylinder Blocks
I had a piece of Brass bar that was long enough to make all four cylinders from. The end of the bar was centre drilled and with a running centre a light skim was taken off the OD and checked for parallel it was within 0.05mm (good enough). Four pieces just over 1” long was parted off.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1215.jpg)
Using the back of the chuck as a stop each piece was faced off, the first one was then faced to length, the dials zeroed and the rest faced off to the same length so that they all came out the same.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1216.jpg)
A check with DTI showed that the chuck was holding them concentric to 0.02mm, as it’s the concentricity of the centre hole with the three cylinders that’s important this is more than good enough. They were then centre drilled roughed drilled 7/32 then letter D drill and finally a ¼” reamer put through with a carrier so that it finds its own centre and cuts dead to size, this gave a lovely sliding fit on the elbows.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1217.jpg)
Next job was to turn up a mandrel so that the cylinders could be clamped to the rotary table, this was carefully done to ensure a good fit in the cylinder.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1220.jpg)
That’s all for now I’ll finish off the mandrel and turn up the port blocks over the weekend.
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Stew, you've been busy! :jaw:
All going well so far, getting very interesting now! :smart: might pay off!
Nick
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Stew,
You have very nicely got over the first hurdle of getting the pistons bent. Don't worry about them any more. They can easily :lol: be squared up when you cut them to length.
You are now venturing on the path of making sure everything is perfectly vertical and exactly on the same PCD.
Your journey into the unknown begins.
John
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That's looking very nicely done Stew :thumbup:
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Right.... I just re-read the whole thread.... Well I needed to as I apparently missed some of it! :doh:
I did this more than once :lol: and I'm now certain that you must be either mad or a genius to take on one of these engines!!! :ddb: or :smart:
There may be a happy medium between the two...? :zap: But I'm not sure?
Stew you mustn't have had your shots, cause you sure got it bad..... :proj: !!!
Seriously.... It's all getting stored..... One day, when I'm feeling particularly bored and stupid, I might just have a go at one of these :lol:
Really seriously though.... I'm loving this, can't wait to see the test results and the interesting write ups :thumbup:
Keep on building Stew.....
Ralph.
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Stew,
Brilliant idea of using the 1-2-3 blocks to check squareness. I had thought of perhaps milling a piece of steel using the "X" and "Y" axis of the machine for a square.
Can't wait to see the engine finished and "running". :ddb: :ddb:
Bernd
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Bernd
The idea to use the 1*2*3 blocks is all John's:- :bow: he's being a great help.
Stew
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Hi Chaps
Will to start with the bad news had a bit of a desaster shrinking the rim on the hub on the second fly wheel. This rim is steel so the first time I tried it wouldn't fit. For the second try I reduced the hub dia by a couple of thou and left the rim in the oven for a good hour, the bits fit but the hub went in twisted I tried correcting it with a :hammer: and a chunk of wood and ended up cracking the hub, :doh: ho well I'll just have to make another one at a later date.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1244.jpg)
Spent a lot of time on my lathe over the last couple of days, trying to turn my week round :lol: :lol:.
Making all the turned bit before doing more milling work.
Up to know I've more or less followed the drawing but I'm going to change the way of fixing the valve ports to the base, the drawing uses two screws off set from the centre, I'm going to use one screw on the centre line, this will help getting things lined up. All will be clear when I machine up the base how this will work.
I've also chenged the design of the spindle, I've adopted fabricated spindle pins this has a number of advantages, I can use the ground 1/4 bar the threads will screwe up to square shoulders and the length of the pins can be easily adjust to match the length of the cylinders to give the correct amount of end float.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/scan0001.jpg)
Most of this work is plain turning work, so i've added a few pics of little tricks and kit that I use
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1252.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1237.jpg)
Home made depth gauge used to set length for part off usfull when you've got a few to do and want them all the same.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1238.jpg)
Drill stop again when usfull you'vr got a few to do all the same
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1231.jpg)
Parting tool
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1225.jpg)
Die Holder and split die
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1239.jpg)
Die holder in use with RTP good stuff to tap with especialy stainless
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1242.jpg)
Collection of bits
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Stew,
Be very careful about not using the two screws in the base. It was by using one of the two screws in a slotted hole allowed me to get the engine running. I looked at the single screw method, and came to the conclusion it would not give the correct adjustment required, and was proven right. Also think about fitting o-rings between the bottom control valve and the base. This greatly helps in final adjustment.
Just a suggestion.
John
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Hi John
Thanks for the warning, if it doesn't work out I'll still be able to revert to the two screw method.
I Hope you'll soon be feeling better take it easy.
Stew
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What a shame about the cracked spoke Stew, bet you were gutted.
It looked so well made too :(
Like your depth ideas btw, I'll have to do some adopting there :thumbup:
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Stew,
Be very careful about not using the two screws in the base. It was by using one of the two screws in a slotted hole allowed me to get the engine running. I looked at the single screw method, and came to the conclusion it would not give the correct adjustment required, and was proven right. Also think about fitting o-rings between the bottom control valve and the base. This greatly helps in final adjustment.
Just a suggestion.
John
John
I've been meaning to ask you this question for some time but I keep forgetting when the oportunity arrises. :doh:
Are the two cylinder block on the same centre line on your engine or are they slightly off set, have you ever measured this ?.
It's something I've pondered about would a slight off set help smooth running.
Just one of my mad theories. :med:
Cheers
Stew
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Stew,
That is the reason for the adjustment I mentioned. It is almost impossible to get them PERFECTLY lined up in the very beginning.
A couple of microns either way of correct will stop it running. You require both X and Y axis adjustment, about 0.5mm total in both axis, and the adjusting tool is a plastic handled screwdriver and a few hours of patience.
You will also have to wear slippers, to resist the temptation of launching it into orbit with a quick boot lift off. :lol:
Bogs
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Stew,
nightmare about the cracked flywheel hub :doh: Looks likey you've made good progress though, the more I read about these elbow engines though, the less inclined I am to try and make one!
I have been struck down with a serious case of :proj: at the moment so not been in the workshop much for the right reasons but I am making slow progress and will get on with the next project soon hopefully!
Nick
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First job in the mill was to put screw slots the screws, this was done by simply screwing the screws into a spare spindle, griping it in a small vice with a V jaw, the slot was put in with a small TC slitting saw.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1267.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1271.jpg)
Next job was to set up for the valve ports, to mount the port to the Rotary Table (RT) a mandrel was turned up symilar to that used to hold the flywheel hub, but this time a 11mm hole was bored to be a nice fit on the valve port. The valve port was bolted to this mandrel with a M5 screw.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1277.jpg)
To set the RT up the work has to be centred on the RT, to do this the worm was disengauged so that the table would free wheel and the mandrel was clocked and adjusted until it clocked true.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1278.jpg)
The next job was to centre the table with the mill spindle this again a clock was used but this time it was held in a drill chuck and the spindle rotated the X and Y tables adjusted until it clocked true, and the X and Y table zeroed and the table off set to port position and the tables locked.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1279.jpg)
This is my crib sheet so that I can do the job methodicaly
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1287.jpg)
These are the tools I used a small drill chuck mounted so that it can be held in my clarson type cutter holder a small centre drill a 1/8 drill and a 1/8 slot drill again in a home made holder.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1288.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1289.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1286.jpg)
It was then just a matter of cutting the ports with a little squirt of bog water WD40
Job Done
:thumbup:
Stew
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Nice looking job there Stew,
I have some RT work to do soon, could you show how you held the part on the RT again?
I think you had an MT2 arbor in the RT with a thread in the end of it to attach things. Is that right :scratch:
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Darren
It wasn't a full M2 taper it was just a small stub with a M5 thread, that long screw went into, the Job was fastened to this from the other side again with a M5 screw, I'll try and post some more photos and a Crap O Cad later.
I'm on domestic duties at the moment mucking out and changing the straw in the house.
Cheers
Stew
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Hi I hope this makes it a bit clearer I'm just about to set up the table to do the cylinders so I do a more detailed step by step write up.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/rt.jpg)
Basically what I'm doing is making the set up mandrel a lose fit in the M2 taper, just nipping it up with the clamp bolt so that it will move with a tap, clocking it up true, tightening it up, then clamping the RT to the mill. I've probably not bean clear on this if you think about it you can set the job up true on the RT away from the mill you can do it in the next county if you want, as long as is doesn't move in transit.
When you do write up likes this its nice when people ask questions and give you feed back it makes the effort all worth while, so thanks for asking Darren :thumbup:
Cheers
Stew
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Thanks Stew, all clear now and very helpful for a job I need to do.
BTW, the general silence shouldn't be taken to heart. We are watching and thoroughly enjoying yor progress. much to be learnt here.... :thumbup:
Keep up the good work.... :clap:
-
You`re not alone Stew....... :wave:
I`m here daily, watching quietly & taking most of it in. :thumbup:
Wish I could understand how these elbow engines work.
All I have ever seen is a vid or two. :scratch:
I`m hoping all will be revealed, soon...... :clap:
Your postings are very much appreciated. :thumbup:
David.
-
Thanks Darren and David
:wave:
Cylinders
To drill the bores in the cylinders I’ll again use the rotary table but this time as I want better accuracy, I’ll use the index plates. Rather than getting bogged down trying to explain how the index system works I’ve added a few scans of my table’s instructions.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/scan0001-1.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/scan0002.jpg)
To use an index plate you have to remove the winding handle and replace it with an index plate and a winding handle with an indent. The table has a 90 to 1 ratio (90 turns of the wheel give one rotation of the table) to get the number of turns of the handle you divide 90 by 3 (3 bores required) giving 30 turns as this is a whole number you can use any index plate, as long as you start and finish in the same hole.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1295.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1301.jpg)
Setting up the index plate I’m using a mandrel that’s a lose fit in the table, (see crap o cad above) but this time I will centre the mandrel on the RT away from the mill. You just loosely clamp the mandrel to the RT and with the worm disengaged so that the table free wheels, the mandrel is clocked up and adjusted until it runs true, the clamp in tightened up and the mandrel checked again, if its still OK the table is then clamped on the mill. The mill spindle is then centred to the RT, the x and y tables zeroed, I off set the y table by 5/16 for bore position, both tables were then locked
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1305.jpg)
Each hole is centre drilled then drilled through with 15/64 followed by a letter D drill which is just under
¼ “Ø, the bore is brought to final size with a hand reamer, this ensures that bore is spot on size.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1313.jpg)
At this stage when you’ve got enough bits it’s always nice to see how it will all fit together. The elbows are only roughly bent square but straight away even with this part assembly you find how important elbow square ness is, the elbows fitted nicely into one cylinder but as soon as you try to assemble them into two the out of square ness locks them up.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1315.jpg)
I’d better get my boots ready to kick them into touch.
:bang: :bang: :bang:
:D
Stew
-
Stew,
I honestly wish I could tell you that from now on is easy, but I would be lying.
You have done a very good job so far, so don't rush it at this stage, just take it nice and easy, and you will win.
John
-
Fair do's Stew..... You're going for this one in a very tidy way! :thumbup:
I wouldn't even have thought of my index plates..... But then I'd have probably cocked this up!
Reading and learning all the time :)
Ralph.
-
Stew,
This is looking fantastic, :bow: I'm so glad I didn't bother with it, I clearly haven't got the skill required and my parts would no doubt have been sat in the carrier bag, along with the swarf and fluf from the tuble dryer right now! :bang:
As Bogs says, just persevere now, take you're time (I am sure you will) :smart: :coffee: and you will win .. then :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :) :D
-
great work there looking great :thumbup:
-
You chaps who've been paying attension would have noticed that I hadn't skimed any of the cylinders down to take the fly wheel or bent all of the elbows, well that all part of the cunning plan :scratch: . Now that i've got four cylinders made I've spent some time matching them up to get the best fit, :hammer: when I got the best combination and best position for each pair I put an axle in them and an unbent piston then I put the hand reamer through the other bores this took of just a whisper of metal, and gave me a set of cylinders that lined up perfectly.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1320.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1323.jpg)
I marked each pair and assembly position with a small centre pop so that I can match the cylinders up exactly when I assemble the engine.
I was realy pleased with this process I can assemble the cylinders with an axle and three pistons as shown in the pics by hand without any undue force and the pistons are still a nice popping fit in the bores.
One happy Stew
:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
:D :D :D :D :D
:) :) :)
-
looking beter all the time
patience is a virtue ive been told :D
-
looking beter all the time
patience is a virtue ive been told :D
A bloody big hammers even better
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
and a lot of lucks better still.
Thanks for your comment
Stew
-
I have a feeling you'll make this work :dremel:
Keep going, I want to see this finished.... :thumbup:
-
Ah Stew, those cylinders are to be 90 degrees to each other, not straight. :lol:
Nice looking so far. Interesting method of making all the cylinders fit. Hoping it'll work for you. :thumbup: :clap:
Bernd
-
Thanks Chaps
I'm planning to visit John tomorrow :bow: to see if I can scrounge a bit of 4 inch square ally plate off him enough to complete two frames, its getting close to the moment of truth, I'll get him to have a look at the cylinders.
Its bin fun so far
Stew
-
No problems Stew,
Just give us a call first, so I can hide the au pair.
John
-
I like your thinking Stew.... Can't wait to see how this all works!!! :D
John..... "Just give us a call first, so I can hide the au pair." And I thought it was all the extra machining that put you out of action!!! :ddb: :lol:
Ralph.
-
Looking great Stew, good luck!
-
Elbow
Black Thursday
Had the day off work on Thursday spent the time in my shed.
First job was to finish off the fly wheel set it up in the three jaw clocked it up and found that I could get the run out down to 0.05 mm plenty good enough. Bored the hub out to give 0.02 mm interference on the cylinder and pressed it in using the vice supporting the hub on scrap roller bearing, the darn thing went and cracked, on top of that it wobbled like a drunken sailor (no disrespect to sailors) I guess the hub bent as I pressed the parts together, no amount of tapping and adjusting could make it ½ way acceptable. Using scrap pistons to make the hubs was not such a good idea the material is far to brittle. The composite fly wheel looks great so plan B is to make some more hubs using some ½” ally plate John gave me.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1326.jpg)
Note use of chim cut up from beer cans to stop damage to rim
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1328.jpg)
Polishing rim with lapping stick to avoid twisting fingers into a corkscrew
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1345.jpg)
Looks nice doesn't it pity the hubs scrap. :(
That was the good part of the day in the evening we had some friends round for a meal, and I went a spilled a glass of red wine on the carpet, it was the first glass of the evening so I had no excuse, normally the boss would have gone spare at me, but no she was very stoic about it she just said “ho well we needed a new carpet any way” bugger that,s my new lathe money gone.
:( :( :( :(
Started on the frames these are being made out of ½” thick ally plate kindly donated by John, this plate is from a recycled assembly fixture and machine real nice. First job was to work out how best to cut the plate to get the bits out I needed, then it was an hours work with an hacksaw and an aching arm to get the bits cut out.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1343.jpg)
Note use of guide block to keep cut straight and to support plate.
Blade kept lubricated with Bog water WD40
I did a quick check to see if the table edges of the mill were square, by putting a DTI in the chuck and running it along the edge, they were spot on, :thumbup: knowing this I can use an engineer square to set thing up square on the table.
I set a parralel clamp square across the table, the plate was put on parallels and the best edge butted up to the square clamp, and with an 18mm end mill the face was cleaned up (milling the full depth of plate with up to 2mm deep cut) this clean face was butted up against the square clamp and cleaned up this was repeated until all faces were cleaned up.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1330.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1331.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1344.jpg)
Thats all for now
Stew
-
im liking this thread it is giving me ideas on how to setup and use a mill.
swmbo has agreed to let me by a small one :D
havent told her about the costs of tooling yet ::)
great work Stew :clap:
-
Stew, didn't you break this before :scratch:
It looks so superb, I want to make one and I'm not building an engine :ddb:
Got to be worth another go.... :thumbup:
-
Stew,
The bits are looking great, I have every confidence!
Like your idea of taking a day off to do some work, but if I did that I'd probably get dragged off somewhere else ... besides, I only have 8 hours leave left to last until the end of April! :doh:
-
Stew, didn't you break this before :scratch:
Yes that the second I've broken the material just not up to it.
Thanks for your coments Chaps
:wave:
Stew
-
Even though I have used it before now, I am not a great fan of heating and cooling parts to get them together, especially big lumps going around flimsy centres, something usually gives way because of the stresses produced.
I prefer just a slight interferrence fit, pressed into place, or a bit of loctite.
But I am sure you will get it right eventually Stew.
Bogs
-
I have to admit I find it difficult to imagine piston material being fragile?
-
I have to admit I find it difficult to imagine piston material being fragile?
Yes It came as a surprise to me perhaps fragile is the wrong description it could well been the fact as John said that the design of the hub was all wrong In that I'd made the spokes too thin for achieving a press fit, I may have been better having a loser fit with loctite: still I'll just put it down to experience with what I've learnt from this little experiment I'm shure my next attempt will be OK. :thumbup:
Cheers
Stew
-
The aluminium piston is most likely cast so it will be brittle. I agree with Stew & Bogs, probably too much interference.
Nick
-
Just a quick update as to why I've not posted the weekend progress. No I've not kicked it into touch, got one base machines up and fitted together just needs a bit of bling, got the cylinders fitted to it as well.
Spent an hour Sunday night righting it up when I read it realised it was total gibberish, I'm finding it quite difficult to put into words the process, I've had another think about it so I'm going to approach the right up in a different way, it's a matter of finding time this week.
Wifes Birthday, remembered card :thumbup:, so avoided that dog house, went out for a meal, :thumbup: another dog house avoided,
Dads 84th Birthday, remembered card :thumbup:, day out arranged :thumbup:
Dads sister down from Scotland to ''see younger brother'' meal out arranged with them. :thumbup:
Etc Etc
A Busey
Stew
-
Stew,
"Life gets in the way"........ ::)
Enjoy! :thumbup:
David.
-
Assembling the base.
The important thing with the base is keeping everything aligned and square.
First job was to do some crib sheets for holes centres and co-ordinates this required a bit of adding and subtracting and devision easy with a calulator
pic shows the hole centres and the co-ordintes used to drill the base, the vertical treated in a symilar way.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1349.jpg)
To get the correct position of the holes its important that you locate the edge of the plate, there are a number of diferent ways to do this, I use the cigerette paper method this is the way I was shown when I was an apprentice:- its best to use the method you are happy with.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1365.jpg)
The base was the first to be drilled M3 clearance and countersunk for cap screw heads, the air way holes were only centre drilled at this point.
The vertical was then set up on an angle plate taking care that the angle plate was square to the table and the fixing holes drilled and tapped.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1347.jpg)
The base and the vertical were screwed together and the assembly clamped on the angle plate. One edge was set up level with the edge of the anlge plate as a datum.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1358.jpg)
The air ways were drilled with 1/8 long series drills. When drilling long holes its important to keep clearing the drill out of the hole (pecking) to clear away the swarf otherwise is will build up and break the drill. WD 40 was used to help the drill cut clean.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1356.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1360.jpg)
On the centre line the fixing holes for the cylinder was drilled, with an additional clamp over the top giving additional support
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1362.jpg)
Keeping the same datum edges the base was flipped over to drill the fixing holes for the other cylinder this way everything was on the same centre line.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1363.jpg)
At this point I've enough bits for a trial assembly this is what it looks like with the wobbly wheel
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1367.jpg)
Its a pity I've got to remake the wheel hub as its getting close to a trial run, it needs a bit of bling on the base and a bit of final fitting elbows squaring up etc.
I didn't find that an easy to right up hope you chaps under stood it
Cheers
Stew
-
Stew, your write up makes perfect sense to me. :thumbup: The engine is looking TOO good! If it assembles with the wobbly flywheel hub, how good is it going to be with a striaght one! :bow:
Nick
-
Yep I understood what you meant so it must be ok.. :lol:
Stew, I only hope I can make something to your standard one day, that is looking real good and so methodical :thumbup:
-
Loud 'n' clear Stew :thumbup:
I am really glad your showing this too.... I've got a couple of angle plates that were donated by a not so anonymous benefactor ( Hi John :wave:)
I haven't used them yet but I'm sure learning ways and methods of doing so :)
A quick flywheel remake :bugeye: And it'll all be down to the fiddling and faffing about :bang: :med: :bang: :med: :bang: :med: :coffee: :doh: :ddb: (a representation of moods expected in smileys :lol: )
As long as your still having fun it's all good ehh!?
Ralph.
-
Stew
Here is a little trick I discovered when my first flywheel wobbled. Since it is a press fit, it can be straightened. Chuck the flywheel in your lathe and get your hands on a piece of 1/4 or 5/16 inch wooden dowel rod. Mount the dowel in your tool holder and move it over so that one end touches the inner section (at high point of wobble) of the flywheel. (we'll assume the central hub is already running true)
Turn on the lathe and slowly but gently move the dowel rod into the face of the flywheel. Watch until it runs true. Then move to the outer rim and repeat the process. You might have to move back and forth a couple of times, but you will quickly kill off the wobbles.
So far it's worked great for me.
Steve
-
Thanks Chaps
Steve:- thanks for the tip on sorting the woble :thumbup: I'll give it a go.
Cheers
:beer:
Stew
-
Stew,
as long as the axis for the hub is concentric and colinear with the outer diameter and the face is perpendicular it might work ... will just run with a wobble .. .I know it looks bad but at least you'll know it runs then you could machine another! I like the composite flywheel but I think i'd machine it from one piece keeping everything tied up! I always try to take the easy option though :lol:
Well done, hope you can sort the wobble!
Nick
-
Well very nearly on the last lap.
Tried Steve,s suggestion for sorting the woble:- set the wheel up in the lathe with a piece of wood in tool post turned the lathe on slow speed and pushed it with the wood and it worked, the woble came out like magic :thumbup:, thanks Steve, my only worry now is the crack in the hub, will it stand up to the messing about when I assemble the engine:- we will see.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1377.jpg)
Spent a couple of hours turning bits up to finish it off:- washers, air connectors, plugs for the air pasage ways etc.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1369.jpg)
One thing I couldn't show you until I striped the base down was how I dowelled the vertical to the base, I simply drilled a couple of 3/32 holes right through the base into the vertical and nocked in a couple of 3/32 dowels this will ensure everything will assemble up dead in line.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1371.jpg)
Next job was to tidy the base up with a bit of bling, I'm don't like too much bling, I like things to look a bit industrial. :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:
Put a 1/4 rad around the base this was done by clamping a stop, clocked parrallel on the table, then the base was pushed up hard against this stop clamped down, and 1/4 rad end mill fed into the edge the tables zeroed:- next edge set up feed into zero etc etc.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1373.jpg)
With the vertical it was first marked out, then in the machine vice, the line was leveled to the top of the vice jaw sited up with a parrallel, and skimed up to the line with a fly cutter sorry no pics forgot.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1375.jpg)
And the top radiused in the RT
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1376.jpg)
All of the bits are know available to start assembling the engine, first job was to clean all the bits of swarf of using white spirit.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1378.jpg)
The valve ports were assembled first and checked for squareness
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1381.jpg)
The cylinders were measured and the fabricated axle trimmed off to give 0.1 mm float.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1379.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1380.jpg)
Then the required length of the pistons were then measured in the x and y using a hight gauge
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1382.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1384.jpg)
The X and Y were within 0.7 of each other I'll make the elbows 36.75mm long.
Well that all for now.
Cheers
:beer:
Stew
-
Who's been a busy boy then?
Looks like you are very close to setup now Stew.
You are now approaching the time when most people get too frustrated to carry on, and stick it under the bench.
Only adjust one thing each time, if it doesn't work, put it back to where it was. Otherwise what will happen, you and the engine will get confused.
I doubt if you will need it, but I am only a few minutes away if you get too uptight with it.
Plenty of good lube, even at this stage. Not WD, not enough film strength.
Good luck on your crusade. If you can get this one running, anything else you come across will be a piece of cake.
John
-
Thanks John
I guess tomorrow will be D day or should that be E day.
Stew
-
Stew
It might sound silly, but next time you do a test assembly, Dykem the ends of the pistons and give the cylinders a hand turn or two and then disassemble the engine again. Look a the ends of the pistons and make sure none of the ends are striking the valve plates. If the Dykem has been scratched off, it's hitting the plate. Twice I've encountered this as being a problem with elbow engines. It only takes a slight contact to stop the piston dead in place.
Glad the flywheel trick worked for you. Surprising how quickly it solves that problem.
Steve
-
Steve
Thanks for the Dykem tip I'll certainly use it.
Cheers
:beer:
Stew
-
Thanks John
I guess tomorrow will be D day or should that be E day.
Stew
GOOD LUCK for today, Stew........ :thumbup:
David D
-
Yes Stew, we'll all be waiting to see how you get on today.
Good luck :thumbup:
-
Well got it all assembled Ok turns over lovely by hand no tight spots but won't run on my little compressor not enough wind:- wife suggested as I've always got plenty of wind why don't I :- etc , etc but I think that would be painful
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Going round John's this afternoon to try it on his big compressor
Keep your fingers crossed..
Stew
-
Firmly crossed :dremel:
-
Well this is the assembled Engine
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1386.jpg)
Tried it on my small compressore and it ran out of wind so took it round to Johns to try on his bigger compressore and for John to sprinkle some pixie dust on it.
So I expect you want to know if it runs
?
Yes it does
Happy Bunny, Happy Bunny, Happy Bunny,
:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
:D :D :D :D :D :D
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Just got to do a bit of tidying up sort one or two oil leaks give it a bit more bling
Happy
Stew
-
YEEE HAARRR!!!!
Blummin well done, you two! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I need to see one of those engines working....... Don`t understand `em...... ::)
David D
-
:ddb: And many more :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :D
Looks good to me Stew, all that planning paid off me thinks! Cedges runout trick certainly worked too :thumbup:
Just a wait to see the finished machine and then you'll have all the dancing bananas you can get :bow:
Rock on!! :headbang:
Ralph.
-
Wicked..... :headbang:
They certainly look like a challenge those engines, and you've done it proud Stew..... :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
I can only imagine how you feel, well done that man :thumbup: :clap: :dremel:
-
Superb! You really took a methodical approach and it has really paid off, beautiful engine and a sweet runner..
:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
David H
-
Thanks Chaps you're support and encouragement :poke: :wack: :hammer:
was much appreciated,
And
Johns help and advice was invaluable:- Thanks John.
Cheers
:beer:
Stew
-
I can still see Stew's grin from ear to ear, punching the air and hopping and skipping on his way home, like a little kid with a bagful of sweets.
I would just like to let you know, Stew had done it by himself, I just supplied the extra air and lots of oil to keep it running.
Well done Stew :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
We did a post mortem after the major run (and it also did run slow, and in reverse) and we worked out where it needed a bit more work to make it run even better.
:ddb: :ddb: You are definitely one of the few Stew :ddb: :ddb:
Bogs
-
Nice job! :thumbup: And it runs! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
[thinks] "on day, one day"[/thinks] :med:
-
Glad to see you beat all odds and had a runner the first time. :thumbup:
Way to go Stew. :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Bernd
-
Well done Stew!!!!!! :bugeye: :jaw: :D :) :bow: :bow:
Haven't seen the video yet, it won't let me at work. Amazing you got it to run first time but I thought it would! You'll never get me trying one though.
The burning questions on my mind are ... you were making two of these weren't you? Do they both run?! Are you selling one?! I reckon there'd be 1 or 2 people watching that ebay Auction should you decide to list one!
Nick
-
I have already given Stew this link, to see if one is worth putting on there.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Collectable-Model-Elbow-Steam-Engine_W0QQitemZ260386053152QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trains_Railway_Models?hash=item260386053152&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318#ebayphotohosting
Bogs
-
Thanks Chaps for your kind comments. :headbang:
As for number two the frames unfinished just roughed out and I'm not too happy with the flywheel, I'll see how the one on ebay goes before deciding if its worthwhile putting it up for sale, I'll finish it off over the next couple of months:- mite as well know that I've taken it this far.
Cheers
Stew
-
Never seen one on there before, that that rate I don't think it is worth putting on, but there could be a bit of a bidding war near the end yet.
Nick
-
AWESOME STEW!
Thats really really cool that you planned it out.. did the hard work.... and IT RUNS!
Nothing in the world better than pouring yourself into something, doing the planning.. and having it work :headbang:
Awesome Job!!
I would buy one of those just to play with it..... but really.. I think I will wait and build one down the road after I build a steam engine or two.
-
Well I'd started two elbow engines No 1 has resided on the desk where I absentmindedly give it a turn now and then, as for No 2 that was never finished off, and its spent the time on the back shelf of my shop, but I have been on the look out for material to make the flywheel from, I've pick up quite a few short pieces of brass tube about 1" long and 3 to 4 " dia and some 1/4" ally plate, so its time for No 2 to be finished off I'm planning to add a bit of novelty to this one:- so here we go.
First job clean fly wheel rim and bore.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3315.jpg)
Bore cleaned to leave a 1mm step for the hub to but against.
The hub is made from 1/4 " plate rough cut to shape with a centre roughly in the middle then some masking tape stuck on the back for friction turning.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3316.jpg)
Grip a stub of bar flush with the jaws of the chuck.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3321.jpg)
Trap the piece of plate between the running centre and the chuck and with light cuts skim up the OD to give a nice neat fit in the rim.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3319.jpg)
Now I'm going to cut the spokes in the hub using the RT and and the PCD feature of the mill DRO.
First stub of bar in the chuck to lift the hub clear of the chuck jaws.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3322.jpg)
Grip the hub in the chuck with the RT still lose on the table centre the RT with the quill by holding a centre tight into the centre in the hub, then tighten the RT down.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3326.jpg)
I drew out the the hub in cad and put a few critical dimensions on the drawing to guide me. Then using a combination of the RT and the PCD feature of the DRO drill corner holes 5 mm.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3331.jpg)
Then using a 5mm slot drill joined the holes up.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3332.jpg)
Then repeat for the inside.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3335.jpg)
Then join the two parts up
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3336.jpg)
And thats it spokes cut in the hub they need a bit of a tidy up and the bore opening out for the cylinders but that jobs for another day.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3339.jpg)
This is what it looks like in the rim with the cad drawing.
Have fun
Stew
-
Nicely done & shown...... Again, Stew! :clap:
Another runner, in no time. :thumbup:
David D
-
Nice looking flywheel Stew. :thumbup:
Bernd
-
Nice work Stew, couple of good centring tricks i have learned there.
Nick
-
Thanks Chaps
Added some novelty features to the cylinders.
Set up in the indexer on a mandrel and getting the bores on correct alignment with the aid of a height gauge.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3365.jpg)
Then with a 1/4" ball noses slot drill mill some scollops into the cylinder
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3370.jpg)
The picked up the bores on the rotary table and added three more 1/4" blind holes, sorry no pics. Pop some 1/4 ball bearings into the blind holes, and this is what you get
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3379.jpg)
Now what do they look like.
:D :D :D
Have fun
Stew
-
Hi Stew
Very nice looking engine, followed with some interest. Now, I know what I think they look like, so, before you get arrested, ..
How does the ally bit stay inside the brass rim ? Shrink fit? or what?
Dave BC
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Dave
I'll be using good old high strength loctite thats what's holding No 1 together, its not moved after quite a bit of :hammer:
Cheers
Stew
-
Well Stew, every time I watch someone work on an "elbow engine", I reflect on the actual forces that are enacted through the two cylindrical sets of cylinders, and consider my work on hydrostatic drives sufficient for my own purpose when it comes to elbows. Having just rebuilt a few hydrostatic drives for lawnmower and woods maintenance equipment, you may know that I am watching with eagerness, hoping you will come out with an engine that spins freely and at high speed in the end, and brings out the least number of curses. I've seen a stirling engine built on the same principle for the expanding cylinder, but at about a thirty degree angle rather than a right angle, and I believe it is because the lower angle gives a better leverage ratio and less friction loss, but at the cost of pressure and power in the stroke. Popular Mechanics had a version it published back in the sixties or early seventies, where there was a hinge joint on each of six sets of pistons/rods, and while I believe the claim it ran great, I am still at a loss as to how, without binding up completely.
Watching with baited breath, looking forward to seeing that engine run :beer:Mad Jack
-
Jack
Elbows fascinate people, they look deceptively simple to make but as you say a bit of a beast to get running, I was lucky with No 1 it ran first time of trying although it had some tight spots, still has, you need to get everything dead square which is easy said than done, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that No 2 will be a runner.
Thanks for your interest.
Have fun
Stew
-
Dave
I'll be using good old high strength loctite thats what's holding No 1 together, its not moved after quite a bit of :hammer:
Cheers
Stew
Tks Stew, have now taken the opportunity to go through the whole thread. Something I should have done in the first place. :doh:
They really are a curious device. But, when the one on Bogs Vid. slows down, either strobing or whatever, you can just about see what's going on. I wonder how the originator came up with the principle?
Far too precise for me to attempt. After yesterdays antics, anything is :(
Might as well confess, drilled a hole in a transformer... greatly improved the cooling, electrically it is done for. Ah well, order to Farnell tomorrow... :doh:
Dave BC
-
Thanks Dave
Hard luck with the motor :doh:
By way of a confession I scrap a cylinders when drilling a hole for the ball bearing, so made two new ones, I didn't take any pics but I tried a new idea out to make them.
I chucked the bar up with enough material sticking out to make two cylinders, skimmed down the OD and drilled the centre hole, then transfered the chuck with the bar in place over to the mill, used the trick of having the chuck lose and centring to the quill with the hole using a centre, then clamping the chuck up, then used the PCD feature on my DRO to drill the rest of the holes drilled right through both cylinders, transfering the chuck back over to the lathe, parting off the cylinders, its given me cylinders that have bores that are dead in line with each other in any position, hopefully they will work great.
Cheers
Stew
-
Stew, I've been considering the forces at work in these elbow engines, mostly because I've seen one with the pistons hinged, actuallly run, yet the majority of the story is if there is the slightest detail in alignment off, they are locked up. What I've come up with is this: if the pistons move in and out no more than their diameter, and if the piston remaining in the cylinder is more than twice the diameter long, they can be hinged as the bearing surface remaining in the cylinder is sufficient to keep the two pistons in full alignment. In some of the hydrostatic motors I work on, the pistons are at least three times the length of their working stroke, while those which have the stroke and bore less than this ratio invariably use balls for pistons, as the ball generates no twist or leverage against its self as a piston would, if cocked in the cylinder as out of square by any means would entail. I think with this understanding, I am soon to try my hand at an "elbow engine", even just to put on my wife's chair side table to keep her occupied and not yelling at me to do something useful. I've been considering that elbow engine I saw work forty years ago with hinged pistons, and had to come up with a rational explanation on how it could work, and only just realised all the conditions necessary for such a thing. Great job on the engine, it's good to see something work the first time out, and so often it takes weeks to work out the bugs. Cheers :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :bugeye:Mad Jack
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Hi Jack
Thats some interesting ideas you've floated there, I toyed with the idea of having an hinged elbow using rubber, the sort of stuff they use for suspension bumpers on cars.
Cheers
Stew
-
Nice cylinders. Wish I'd thought of it.
-
Thanks Rleete
This ones going on fleabay so I wanted to make it a little bit special.
Finished off the fly wheel fastened the hub to the rim using heigh strength loctite let it do its curing thing for a couple of hours, then set it up true in the lathe and bore for a nice fit on the cylinder.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3380.jpg)
Again fastened cylinder to the fly wheel with loctite, this is what its looking like.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3381.jpg)
Made a start on the base I'll already got it cut to size and some holes drilled, so made a start drilling the long 1/8" dia air ways with a long series drill.
This is the set up I use a little complicated but I want to keep every thing aligned.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3383.jpg)
And this is what happens when you rush, the drill broke leaving a bit in the job, nothing for it but to start again.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3385.jpg)
Decided to call it a day.
Our daughter is due to give birth any time to our first grandchild so I'm a bit on edge.
Have fun
Stew
-
That`s looking very good Stew! :thumbup:
1st grandchild? I know just how you feel, though I`ve had 5 weeks practice now! :ddb:
Hope all goes well for you and yours...... :wave:
David D
-
Thanks Dave our daughters due date is today so we're on tenderhooks.
Any way got some more of the base done today.
Drilling some holes I like to do this job on the angle plate so that I can keep everything lined up its how I did No 1 and that seemed to work OK.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3386.jpg)
Shaping the vertical support on the RT
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3387.jpg)
Not looking to bad.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3388.jpg)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3389.jpg)
Just a few minor bits to do and bend the elbows then It will be fingers crossed to see if she will run, then a bit of a polish.
I've deviated quite a bit from the John Tom drawings changed it with some of Bogs' ideas along with a few of my own.
Thinking of drawing it up with the changes and posting the drawing on her would you guys be interested in that ?.
Have fun
Stew
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Hi Jack
Thats some interesting ideas you've floated there, I toyed with the idea of having an hinged elbow using rubber, the sort of stuff they use for suspension bumpers on cars.
Cheers
Stew
Hi Stew, the first such "elbow engine" I ever saw, was in Popular Mechanics as a machining project, back in the late sixties, and it had six cylinders or twelve depending on how you count them, each piston had a ball machined at the connecting end, with the corresponding two ball ends either halved with a pivot pin, or tongue and grooved hinged, with cylinder diameter of about half an inch, and probably seven or eight inches square and tall. It was shown running, although still pictures don't do justice to such, yet for going on forty years, every single one I've ever seen which tried to emulate this engine with unfixed pistons has been given up as a loss, and redone with the pistons made one piece for both ends. It has only been the constant stream of these engines showing up in my life, and recalling that one which has brought me to finally focussing on the issue, and recognizing the reason for the failures. Now I have an obligation to get through my radial engine sooner, so I can actually put in practice, that which I have declared as true, because until it is in metal, it is just theory, not fact. I am extremely gratified you have managed to be so successful so quickly, and apparently easily, in getting it going with so little re-work. Great engine ,great inspiration. :smart:, thanks, Jack
-
Thanks Jack for your positive comments, I get a lot of inspiration from great forums like this I keep getting infected with :proj:.
Final bit of assembly work today:-
Bent the elbows using a gas torch and a couple of bending rods, then bent them close to square against a 1*2*3 block, and got them dead square by first clocking my vice jaw up true, then set the elbow up on a parallel and clocked it up and gave it a few final tweaks to bring it dead square I got them to within 0.001" run.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3392.jpg)
Then carefully measured the engine and calculated to determine the length of each arm of the elbow.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3391.jpg)
Then set them up in the mill and cut them back to give 0.5 mm clearance.
I use a three part axle pin, so that I get dead square shoulders and it makes it easy to measure up the thickness of the cylinder and to trim the pin off to 0.05mm longer than the cylinder, you can see them in this pic
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/100_1242.jpg)
Assembled the engine up and this is what it look like, I still need to bling it up a bit radius the base edge, I may make a wooden base.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3397.jpg)
And yes it does run :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I'll post a vid after the final bling.
Have fun
Stew
-
It ran 1st time?!! :bugeye:
Yer getting a bit good at this lark now........ :thumbup:
Well done Stew! :clap:
David D
-
Fantastic Stew. This is definitely the post anybody trying one of these needs. Hope you get a good price for it, looks excellent.
NIck
-
Excellent Stew. :bow:
I think that indicator alignment you showed did the trick so it would run the first time. :thumbup:
Bernd
-
Thanks again for you comments guys.
Test run the engine in comparison with No 1 engine this one runs a lot better, it keeps running for twice as long with a full tank of air. I'm going to have to have a good look at No 1 and try and get the same performance from it.
Finished the bling work, I don't like thing over done with shine, its a personal thing but to much polishing makes them look like they've had melted chocolate poor over them, not as there is anything wrong with melted chocolate, but not over an engine, I like them to look crisp and honest looking.
Any way hers a pic of No 1 and No 2
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/IMG_2040.jpg)
And a one for the album
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/IMG_2043.jpg)
And her,s the video.
I'll crack on and get the drawings completed which will be next week some time.
Have fun
Stew
-
Nice one Stew :thumbup: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Two very fine engines , great work
Cheers Rob
-
What a super pair of brothers Stew!
No2 sounds almost like a turbine, after dusting...... :thumbup:
Would that dusting stuff work on my stiff joints? :D
David D
-
Very nice Stew, the bling is just the way I like it too. It's supposed to be an engineering artifact not a sculpture but each to his own.
If I get my 'poppin' engines finished to a similar standard 1 of those will hit ebay, or even better I thought would be to advertise it for sale at the Model Engineering Exhibition. That could do away with any ebay fiascos.
Nick
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Thanks Guys
I've decided to hang on to No 2 and sell No 1 after I've rebuilt it, one of the Chaps has got his name on it :D
Have fun
Stew
-
Great work.
Amazing how smoothly it runs. :bow:
I appreciate you sharing your build and methods :smart: you used to achieve the required precision for a good runner.
:headbang:
Whats next? :dremel:
SAM
-
Well Stew, you've done a great job on that engine, and since I just got sort of high speed internet this week, I got to see it run, and it seems to run great. I think your indicating on the "elbow" did the trick for getting the alignment right on, and the engine running right off the bat. I expect to do the same when I get around to building my own "elbow engine". Great job, and great thread showing the whole of it. Cheers!!!! :beer: Mad Jack
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Thanks Chaps
Sam next project is to get No1 Elbow running as good as No2 its got a falt with the flu wheel it wobles due to the hub being cracked so thats going to be replaced, I've had a good think and a tinker and I think the reason no 2 runs better is that I made the cylinder using the method outlined in the plans attached.
Jack:- Just at little poke :poke: to get you making an elbow I've attache the drawings as planned.
OK:- now for the dawings, I think that plans available over simplyfy the design requirement of engine I think this is the reason people strugle to get a runner, in the drawing I've tried to capture my own and John's experiences in getting a successful engine built, I may have overcomplicated the plans the optimum design may be between the two, but I hope they stimulate some of you guys in having a go and successfully build an engine.
Cheers
Stew
-
Whoops :doh:
downloaded the wrong ones
these are the correct ones
Stew
-
Thanks Stew!
Downloaded and printed em, to study during "Candle Rise to Larkford". :thumbup:
David D
-
Stew..... Top job :bow: That looks awesome and runs like a dream :thumbup:
Magic dust eh?? I'll have a chat about that next time I'm in town :)
Got to say I do like the look of them both, I like the styling features on #2 a lot though.... "melted chocolate" never saw that in polished metals before? :D But to me sounds like pretty much all I'd ever need..... Engineering and melted chocolate, fantastic :headbang: (ask Bogs and Mal :) )
As said, top job :beer:
Ralph.
-
Thanks Ralph
I know your a choco holic :ddb:
First an appology to any one whose down loaded the drawing, some of the notes on sht 1 and 2 are very badly writen, I didn't proof read the drawing before I posted because I was tearing my hair out trying to save a good pdf copy of sht 5 on the cad system the drawing is fine but when I safv it to a PDF it misses great chunks out, I was messing arround trying to get it sorted for best part of a day even resorted to completly redoing the drawing, in the end I just posted what I'd got out of frustration, perhaps some of you computer Gorues know what hapening.
I've since sorted out sht 1 and 2 attached but sht 5 is beating me.
Any way as a bit of therapy I've made the new cylinders for the rebuild of No 1 and thought I'd share my method with you so her we go:-
Skim up a 2 1/4" length of brass enough for two cylinders and face and part off.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3398.jpg)
Grip in the chuck and get running true this is not to critical within a couple of thou will be fine.
Face up, Turn step for fly wheel, centre drill and drill right through with a letter D drill 0.246 dia.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3400.jpg)
You can do the next bit with a rotary table similar procedure, but I'm going to take advantage of the Pitch Circle Feature on my DRO so:-
Keeping the job in the chuck transfer over to the mill, centre the hole with the quill using a centre.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3403.jpg)
Clamp chuck to table.
Set up the PCD feature on DRO
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Rotary%203%20cylinder%20steam%20engine/100_3053.jpg)
Centre drill then drill letter D right through, the key to drilling long holes straight is having a machine with good bearings, a nice sharp drill, and not forcing the drill through take your time keep clearing the swarf, if you force it the drill will wonder.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3408.jpg)
Keeping the job still in the chuck transfer back to the lathe, face and part off:- dont forget to mark the cylinders so you can assemble them in the same orientation as they were drilled.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3409.jpg)
Face to length and chanfer the out side face.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3410.jpg)
Run a 1/4 hand reamer through to size the bores this will just take a whisper off.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3411.jpg)
Her they are done
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3415.jpg)
And with the bling I've got no 1/4" balls for the shells.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3418.jpg)
Cheers
Stew
-
They`re just just beautiful Stew! You make it look so easy...... :thumbup:
Guess you`ll soon have a brace of elbows! :D
David D
-
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Somehow, I didn't see this one from the beginning, having recently played catch-up, I'm in awe. Really nice work Stew!
A question for you - in your 3rd pic, above, you're using a pointy edge finder to locate the centre of the circle. Do you use this just like a dead centre, i.e drop it all the way into the hole & when there's no lip showing, you're centered? I've never quite worked up the courage to use my pointy edge finder with the machine running....
-
Ade
Its just a running centre the sort you use in the lathe, you just wind it down into the hole and let it pull the work on centre lock your quill in position to keep there while you clamp the chuck down, you've now got the work on centre with the quill, and it only takes a few seconds.
Edit:- you don't need to run the machine.
My machines takes M3 morse tapers and I've been gearing myself up slowly so that the tooling is interchangable it makes life a lot more simple that way.
Cheers
Stew
-
...I've got no...balls...
Lots of us married guys have that problem!
-
Rebuilt No1 with new cylinders and fitted a new hub in the flywheel its now wobble free.
And its a nice runner as well, remaking the cylinders did the trick.
Here's the video:- ball free :D
I'm going to have to look arround for another project now.
Have fun
Stew
-
COR!! :bugeye:
That one runs very nicely now...... :thumbup:
Blummin well done Stew! (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0064.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-animal-smileys.php)
David D
-
Very nice runner stew :thumbup:
I think you have a natural talent for elbow building/repair :dremel:
I'm going to have to look around for another project now.
I've got a couple you can look at :lol:
How's the loco doing?
Ralph.
-
Hi Ralph
Yep thats what I'm going to pic up next.
Regulator and Hand pump for the tender.
I'd I've been talking to a man about building the boiler
Stew
-
Good stuff :thumbup:
I'll be watching the loco post :)
Boiler... From what I've heard it's a bit you have to absolutely get perfect!
Or you could do this....(very, very doubtful!!)
Oh, the catalogue of errors! :jaw: :bugeye:
Sorry, well :offtopic: so I'm gonna scoot....
Ralph.
-
Your really don't want that to happen every time I see that I wonder just how bad those bare arms were scalded.
The man I've been talking through is the boiler inspector for the model engineering club I go to, I was checking things out with him as way of preparation, if I needed a certificate of conformity for the material at what stages would he want to check the soldered joint out, some of them you can't see when the boiler is completed etc etc. The rules a regulation vary from country to country and seem to be in a constant revision in the UK, and also like a lot of things they are open to interpretation.
Thanks for the reminder.
Stew
-
Stew ............ :bow: ............. real craftsmanship, thanks for taking us along for the ride ........... :thumbup:
As to boilers there is a wealth of information over on HMEM as you probably know, have you found the threads by Firebird (he's UK based), dam good imho
CC
-
Just a quick up date with some experiments I've been doing with lubrication
Its been noticed by quite a few builders that elbows are quite fussy as to type and grade of oil you use, they like it quite a thick oil and plenty of it, 3 in 1 oil is no good for them, I've tried quite a few different grades some they like some they don't, just to illustrate how fussy they can be I used a synthetic oil for diesel engines this stuff slowed it right down, one quick squirt of WD 40 and it speeds away, two squirts and it stopped dead.
Any way got hold of some Millway 68 slideway oil from RDG http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Coolants_and_oils.html
I've just ran my engine on this stuff for over an hour none stop, (still going) as far as Elbows are concerned it's better than sliced bread. :thumbup:
Cheers
Stew
-
got hold of some slideway oil........ as far as Elbows are concerned it's better than sliced bread. :thumbup:
Cheers
Stew
Tried some.......
By `ek! ......... He`s right, yer know! :thumbup: :clap: :clap:
Nice one Stew! (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/winking/winking0011.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)
David D
-
Good one Dave :thumbup:
I find elbow engine hypnotic, specially when running slow, I could watch the darn things for hours :D :D :D
Have fun
Stew
-
I had the pleasure of meeting up with Stew on Thursday evening and he showed me his collection of engines, the elbow engine is mesmorising to watch and runs superbly. All of Stews engines aren't done justice in the photos - his craftsmanship is 2nd to none.
It was great to meet you properly Stew (we'd briefly met before but were both busy at work!) and of course your good lady. I was treated to a cracking indian takeaway :thumbup: and then a visit to Bogs and his aladins cave too. Both fantastic guys I'm sure anybody that has met them would agree.
Thanks again for arranging that Stew,
Nick
-
My pleasure Nick
Must do it again
Stew
-
Both fantastic guys I'm sure anybody that has met them would agree.
Certainly would :thumbup:
Bet you're still trying to remember everything too.... I always come away trying to retain all I saw/heard.
Pity my brian doesn't work so well these days.... luckily I get to visit that way every now and again :)
Ralph.
-
Sounds as if "elbow grease" is still a valid concept. :beer: