MadModder
Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: bogstandard on April 18, 2009, 07:23:08 PM
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A few of you might remember a project that I had mentioned that had come into my workshop.
A very high quality marine steam engine.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher001.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher002.jpg)
Well I contacted the owner to see if it was OK to show my refurbish on the site, as I thought it would be a nice change to see what happens to these old but well made engines, and he very kindly agreed.
I will just explain how things work.
Unlike when you do work for yourself, where you can just do things as you want to get the job done.
When you do something for someone else, they are relying on your expertise to do a good job, and give them value for money without ripping them off.
After being a marine modeller for well over 40 years, I understand exactly what it is like, entrusting your pride and joy into the hands of a total stranger. Hand it over to a cowboy and you will be in trouble from the start and most probably pay thru the nose for the privilege. What I do is come to an agreement on rough costs at the very beginning (I give a substantial discount to fellow modellers), and keep the customer updated if it is to be a long job.
So basically the engine came to me with a list of faults, and with instructions to get it working to the best it can be.
What I do initially is totally ignore where the problem is liable to be, and give the engine a good going over.
The engine came with a requested set of plans, so if any faults on the mechanical side shows up, I should, without too much trouble, be able to remake any parts that are required.
So I went all over the bottom end of the engine, and soon came to the conclusion that this engine had been made by a very experienced craftsman. No corners had been cut, and it was made to a great standard, and no wear or faults could be found anywhere. It goes to show, if an engine is made well and looked after, they are bombproof and will last forever.
So once I am satified that no other work is required, I then concentrate on the problems that the customer has listed.
In this case, a gasket had 'blown' and steam was leaking everywhere, plus he would like the timing 'put' right.
Blown gaskets are a common fault and normally people just replace them, and carry on until it blows again.
I don't like that idea, if a gasket has blown, there is usually a reason for it, and I soon start to find the problem.
These next few photos show what I found.
The first thing that I noticed was that the top end on the valve area was held together by slotted screws. Normally studs with nuts and washers should be used, and with checking on the plans, I was shown to be correct on my assumption. I suspect that sometime during it's long life, one of the gaskets had blown, and someone had replaced the originals with brass screws. Or the original builder didn't get to finish the engine off, and someone with lesser knowledge had taken over the finishing off. But unbeknown to them, screws cannot be tightened down enough to make the gasket stable, and so it will just keep blowing. I will be putting it back to original, how it should be.
So now to disassembly.
This is the main steam face, and was sealed with some sort of compound instead of a gasket, and later pictures will show what it had caused.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher01.jpg)
This is the steam chest and slide valve off this end of the cylinder block. Also shown are some very hard remnants of the gasket goo
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher02.jpg)
This is off the opposite end, which hadn't blown, but it also showed another problem.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher03.jpg)
You can see on this shot how hot this end must have been running, it has actually 'blued' the surface of the brass, and by the looks of it, the gasket was very close to blowing.
Only assumptions can be made of the cause of this problem, ranging from loss of lubrication and very high temp steam or air entering the valve chest, or what I suspect, this end of the engine is very close to the boiler. I will advise the owner to make up a small shield to go between the engine and boiler to try to keep the heat down.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher04.jpg)
Both faces were gently cleaned off, and it shows the damage on the face, both ends were scored by the same amount. I suspect this has been caused by fragments of gasket goo being trapped between the sliding faces. The deep score is about 0.002" deep. That is a massive groove when put into the context of a finely lapped sliding steam face. It will also account for the lack of power and the assumption that the engine timing is out, this scoring will allow exhaust and pressurised steam to go anywhere it wanted to.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher05.jpg)
After a lot of tedious hand flatting and lapping, both faces were brought back to a perfectly flat faces. Before final assembly the slide valves and the faces will be lapped together to get gas tight seals.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher06.jpg)
One slide valve has been cleaned off, the other is about to get the same treatment.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher07.jpg)
While I am at the top end poking about, I decided to take the cylinder caps off. These again were sealed up with liquid gasket. As luck would have it, the internal spigot had stopped any going down into the cylinders and causing any damage. Just general gunge in there which was cleaned out.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher08.jpg)
Without a full bottom end strip down, I can't check the whole of the bores, but I will check what I can.
No sign of any ovality, and both bores measure exactly the same.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher09.jpg)
I checked for taper in the bore, with the same very good results.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher10.jpg)
While I am working on the engine, I am also on the lookout for areas where problems might occur in the future.
I will be making a full set of top end gaskets from PTFE sheet. This is a great substitute for the old waxed paper product, and shouldn't break down over time like paper does. I was a little worried how thin the steam covers were, even though they were made to drawing. So I knocked up a couple of new ones out of thicker material. It was then that the suspicion that someone else had taken over the finishing of the build on this engine. Everything on the engine had been built to superb standards, except this top end, the bolt holes were at different pitches, and it took me quite a while of measuring and calculation to make a pair that would fit either end.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher11.jpg)
Also, I will be fitting studs and nuts instead of screws, so I had to check that no overhang would take place when they were fitted, the one on the right is how it will look. I tried the same thing on the cylinder covers, but because of the way they have been made, they will go back on with just hex head screws with no washer.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher12.jpg)
So now I have the covers made, I can use them for the patterns to make the gaskets up.
To be continued
Bogs
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Very interesting as usual John. Waiting to see the rest. :thumbup:
Andy
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What size is that bore gauge and where did you get it please.
JS.
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John,
It is out of a cheapo Chinese set, it is spring loaded, push down the bore, tighten up the end which locks the bottom rods, withdraw and measure with a mic. I have found them to be very accurate.
Down a bit on this page
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2frdgtools%2eco%2euk%2f&WD=gauge%20bore&PN=EVERYTHING_ELSE_MEASURING%2ehtml%23a620#a620
If you are after something for measuring very small holes, I have something that will do up to about 7mm, super accurately. Give me a call if interested.
John
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I love to read posts like this. Very interesting and very educational.
Thanks John!
Eric
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This is another crackin` post John! :headbang:
Thank you...... :thumbup:
David D
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Thank you for showing this wonderful little engine repair John :thumbup:
I would never have guessed that these engines run under such arduous conditions :bugeye:
Just like a real engine, I'd never have thought it :scratch:
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Thanks John,
Now I look closer it's bigger than I thought.
I have the set of telescoping gauges but I thought at first this was smaller than the smallest in the set I have, if you can follow ::)
JS.
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John,
PM sent.
Darren,
On these types of engines, everything works and operates the same as the full sized ones, including all the related problems. On say the more complicated ones like a triple expansion, they can even condense the water out of the used steam to be reused, just like the real thing.
John
No post tonight, as I am half way thru cutting all the gaskets.
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Looking Good John :thumbup:
You having fun? :)
I know this is more than likely giving you a hint on how to suck eggs, but.....
If you have to use screws (bolts) on the head? Then a little bit of oil (on the cars also copper grease)under the head of and on the thread of the screws (bolts) greatly improved the tightening of the head, it allowed angular torque to be applied far easier than if the parts were clean and dry.....Allowing a tighter bolt with less stress all round!
A little obvious I know, but it doesn't hurt to say it out loud! ::)
I have missed most of my weekend so will hopefully catch up with all this now as it unfolds?
Ralph.
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Nice one John :thumbup:
Stew
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Following on from the last time, where I was making gaskets.
They do take a fair amount of time to hand cut well fitting gaskets, so I have managed all that need to be done at this time. I do have some more to do on the steam valve, but they can be done when needed.
So here is the kit, a scalpel, a couple of hole punches and a hole jig for each type. The jig for the square one was made from the now redundant steam chest covers, and the circular one was made from a piece of 10mm PVC. I always cut extras, just in case I tear one on assembly, plus any that are left over are sent to the customer in a little spares pack when the engine is returned.
Two thicknesses of PTFE are used, one at 0.005" and the thicker at 0.010". Where the gasket cement was used will get the thinner material, while the main gasket on the steam chest will get the thick ones.
I have used PTFE for a few years now, and found it much superior to the old paper gasket. I have even made head gaskets for IC engines with no problems at all. All the little offcuts are saved, to be used for smaller gaskets, as it is rather expensive to just be thrown away.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher13.jpg)
This is where the cylinder cap ones will go.
They look awful in this shot, but in fact they are quite round, on here they are all wavy and makes them look all out of shape.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher14.jpg)
The steam chest gaskets will fit like this.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher15.jpg)
If I feel up to it later, I will get all the studs made, and get the top end reassembled. Then it is just the steam connection pipe and control valve to do.
Bogs
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Hi John
Where do you get that PTFE sheet from ?.
Stew
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Stew, I couldn't find a supplier in the UK when I wanted some. I don't know if anyone is doing it now.
I bought mine from the greatest shop in the world for bits 'n bobs
http://www.smallparts.com/
The only problem was the delivery charge, I ordered about $45 worth of bits but the small package they sent me came to over $60 in carriage charges. So I have never used them since.
Just search for PTFE sheet.
John
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Stew, I couldn't find a supplier in the UK when I wanted some. I don't know if anyone is doing it now.
I bought mine from the greatest shop in the world for bits 'n bobs
http://www.smallparts.com/
The only problem was the delivery charge, I ordered about $45 worth of bits but the small package they sent me came to over $60 in carriage charges. So I have never used them since.
Just search for PTFE sheet.
John
There are some of us here in the states that could help 'assist' getting things shipped to the UK (or else where) for much cheaper. I have done that for a few people... CrewCab most recently. He ordered a bunch of stuff from Mcmaster and LMS , had it shipped to me and I sent it to him. Saving the huge shipping fee from LMS and he was able to get stuff from Mcmaster (who no longer ships out of the US for 'small' guys)
Eric
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Many thanks for the offer Eric, that is most kind of you.
If ever I need anything, I will let you know.
I have had massive shipments sent from the US for the bike, and they came to less than what Smallparts charged me for a little bag, and faster delivery as well.
But I have to admit, I could spend a fortune in Smallparts pages, they have almost everything I have difficulty finding anywhere else, all in one place.
John
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Just a tiny post this time, as I have reached a stage where the job has to stop for a few hours.
I am now doing the rebuild on the top end.
Part of this requires putting the engine back to how it should have been made, that is with studs, washers and nuts instead of screws on the steam chest covers. So that is what this post is about.
Not having any correct diameter material to cut the studding myself (which I would normally do), I actually bought some steel 8BA studding ready made. I cut 8 lengths at about 25mm (1") long. The length at this time isn't critical as it will be cut to exact length after the parts are all bolted together. After chopping up, both ends of each stud was ground up so that a nut screwed nicely onto it. This studding is about 2mm (1/16"+) diameter.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher16.jpg)
Using two nuts locked onto a piece of studding, the ends were dipped in some threadlock and then screwed all the way home in the holes in the main block.
After they were all in, the steam covers were pushed most of the way to the end. But not all the way, there will be some threadlock displaced during the cure, and I don't want the plates being bonded to the block. The reason for the plate being there is to keep all the studs in line while the threadlock does it's job.
The first job to do next time will be to clean off the unwanted threadlock that has appeared on the surface.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher17.jpg)
Tomorrow, if all goes well, should see most jobs done, then I can get onto retiming the engine. Having these studs in will really help, as it is easy to assemble everything accurately without the steam covers on, that, coupled with leaving the cylinder caps off, will make the job a lot easier.
Bogs
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Have you got the paint yet ? Brunswick Green ( dark I think) I got some from Phoinix paints supposed to take heat.
Peter
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No paint required Peter, this is just a mechanical refurb and repair.
To have me strip it down and repaint it would cost the customer a lot of readies. It is easier for him to carry out the touch ups required if he wants to.
John
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Every time you tease us with this engine I can't help but to find it fascinating.
Thank you for all the "how to's". I look forward to every one of them :thumbup:
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Darren,
I really enjoy working on small engines such as this, especially since it was made by what looks like a true artisan (except for the top end, which I am now putting to rights).
After 40 years plus of use, this engine is getting it's first major service, so there is no reason to believe it won't reach it's second major overhaul if it is looked after well.
Some of the bits I am showing you on here will come in handy for when you get to assembling your engine. But yours being a different porting design, you can do away with the gaskets if you want to, and use Hylomar jointing compound.
John
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Thanks for the info, that will make life a lot easier at this/my early stage :thumbup:
I've never enjoyed working in the workshop so much since finding this forum, well the machining side that is. The information gleaned has really helped me to get things going much more smoothly.
You were showing some small bore gauges, I have a set, an old M&W set that I've had for many years and it's just occurred to me that I can use them to size boring a hole :doh:
Should make life easier to prevent going oversize :ddb:
You see your posts give away so much.... :thumbup:
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Darren,
I think I have said this before, a lot of the shots are set up. Most times, I try to include somewhere in the shot the tools that are used to do the job. As in the bore gauge, I put the mic in the background to show that is what I used to take the measurement off the gauge.
So it pays sometimes to look a bit further than the main item in the shot, not always, but most times.
I am just taking a break from the top end studding work, so tonight you will see some more progress.
It is going slowly, as I am still limited to the amount of hours I can do, but it is progressing, and it won't be long before it is ready to go back to the customer, if things carry on as they are doing.
I have noticed a bit of a problem with the internal valve gear, so I will have to knock up a couple of bits before I can do the final assembly and timing. Nothing major, just annoying, and will definitely cause problems if left as it is. All will be revealed.
John
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Hylomar jointing compound
John is this the same as high temperature RTV silcone sealant on this side of the pond?
Ron
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Ron,
Hylomar is a non setting jointing compound. I usually apply it with a fine paintbrush to both surfaces and then push the two parts together.
It is a world renowned jointing compound that was first used on aero engines, but because of its properties was also soon used in all areas of industry especially the automotive.
It must be available in the US, as we can buy it in our car accessory shops.
http://www.hylomar-usa.com/_resources/_html/products.html
A gooooogle search will soon give you everything you ever need to know about it.
John
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The saga continues.
When I got back to the engine this morning, the studs were in there rock solid. If ever they need to be replaced, a couple of nuts on the stud, and then warm the stud up to cherry red, give it a few seconds, and it will be able to be screwed out. The heat will transfer down the stud and break down the threadlock joint.
The excess jointing goo was cleaned from around the bases of the studs.
I used two thick gaskets as they will withstand handling better than the thin ones for what we are doing, the joints will all be made correctly on final assembly. I am just getting all the mechanical bits done first. The first shim was followed by the steam chest, then the cover. The bores look scored in this shot, but they aren't. I put a bit of detergent oil down the bores to remove the last remnants of gunge, what you are seeing is the dirty oil being streaked up the bore.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher18.jpg)
Then two washers were put on each stud, followed by a nut. Everything was tightened down.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher19.jpg)
Excess length on the studs was then ground off, and the studs were filed down flush to the top of the nuts. One of the washers was removed from under each nut and then reassembled.
The cloth was there just to protect the engine from grinding dust and metal swarf. We don't want that muck going up and down in the bores.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher20.jpg)
So this is what it looks like now it is finished. About one thread protrusion from each nut, and everything looking nice and neat.
The gaskets will now be a lot more stable and blow resistant because of this work.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher21.jpg)
So next I turned my attention to just around the corner, the steam inlet manifold.
I was going to fit studs on here as well, but because they would make disassembly more difficult, I decided to use hex head screws instead of the slotted ones that were in there. They will allow more pressure to be put on the gaskets.
This brings me to this shot. I made a few more 5 thou gaskets for the flanges this time. They do look rather rough, that is because they were difficult to cut around on the bench, so they were left slightly oversized and will be trimmed up when held in their final positions.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher22.jpg)
So after cutting four screws to the correct length, the manifold was assembled onto the engine and the gaskets trimmed up to match. So that brings me to the end of the top end refurb until final assembly. So off to the next bit.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher23.jpg)
This is the steam control valve, that controls the entry of steam to the engine, giving basic speed control. It is this coupled with the reversing linkage that makes the engine go backwards and forwards at whatever speed you want the engine to run at.
Now there is a major problem with this bit. At some time in the past, the o-ring has worn (it has a flat on one side) and allowed steam to come out where the handle is. I tried today to remove the handle, and it won't budge. So it looks like someone came across the same problem about the handle, and thought that putting a shim in the bottom of the chamber would cure the problem by pushing the drum harder onto the o-ring. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. What it did was force the drum to rub on the bottom of the flange, and because it seems the drum is made of bronze, it has worn the bottom of the brass flange. I noticed that when turning the handle, it got very stiff in places, whereas it should move freely in a full 360 degree sweep.
This is where I got to today.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher24.jpg)
So I have made a decision to repair this unit, I will have another go at getting the handle off, but don't hold out much hope. I might just cut the shaft just below the handle. By doing that, and making up a replacement flange to cure the damage, plus a different type of handle, I can cure the problem about changing the o-ring forever. That will then be a five minute job.
Bogs
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Nicly done John :clap: :clap: :clap:
I like the little tip putting two washers under the nut cutting the stud off flush then taking one washer away, I've strugled in the past getting studs all the same length, that way will make it easy to get a nice neat finish :thumbup:
Stew
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One supplier in the UK for PTFE sheeting is
https://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk (https://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk)
the thinnest sheet they do is .250mm - should be OK for small engine gaskets.
JohnS
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Very good link John, many thanks.
It is now in my ever growing favourites list.
John
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I buy my plastics from them...good company all round :thumbup:
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To carry on from the last post. Yesterday I got the valve apart and ordered the o-rings.
Now to get back to a rather bad problem that I had notice before. I started this yesterday but didn't really feel up to it. But I did think I had found my 7BA tap. But when I really checked it out, it wasn't, so this is where having friends locally comes into it's own. A quick call to Stew and the required tap was on my workbench, ready for doing the job today. Thanks Stew.
So this is the problem, and one of the main reasons I think that this engine was finished off by an amateur who knew nothing about how this type of engine works.
If you look at this pic, it shows the problem. When the steam slide is in the back position, all is well, and the nut is prevented from turning by the bottom of the slot it is sitting in pressing against one of it's faces. The problem starts when the slide goes into it's normal operating position, pushed forwards by steam pressure and forcing it against the port face, ready to do it's job. There is enough gap between the slot bottom and the nut face to allow the nut to do full revolutions around the screw, so allowing the critical timing to lose position. You can spend hours fine tuning the engine timing, only to have it all undone in a matter of minutes when the engine is running. If you look at the drawing, you can easily see that even if the slide is very loose, there is no way that the correct shaped nut can rotate and allow the timing to move. I can only assume that a bit of Loctite was used on the nut after timing setting, but that is a long time burnt away, if it was there in the first place.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher25.jpg)
So yesterday, I modified the slot in both slides, and cut a piece of brass down until it was a smooth sliding fit in the slots.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher26.jpg)
Holes were drilled in the required offset positions along the length of the bar. Should have been 2.05mm, but 2mm will do fine, so that is what they got.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher27.jpg)
Then onto the tapping stand. Not having the correct width parallels, the way I easily got it level in the vice was pop the part onto the table, turn the vice upside down over it, and tightened up the jaws. Once the right way up, they are seen to be spot on along the whole length. All holes were tapped in a matter of seconds.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher28.jpg)
After a date with the bandsaw and mill, the nuts were to the right size, and as you can see in this pic, there is no way that the nut can rotate. This is a standard method that is used on slides on this type of engine.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher29.jpg)
The other block, ready to go in the engine, with a few spares for the customer. Another job out of the way, now onto the previous one.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher30.jpg)
I ended up cutting the stuck handle off, I couldn't risk damaging the very finely lapped spool.
Once it was off, I could see what damage had been done, and measure up the o-ring. They came today, so I can carry on with the job now. Looking at it now it is apart, I think it has been like this from the very beginning. As it looks like the o-ring seating has been cut too deep, so it wasn't sealing properly from the start, so a shim was put in there to get it to compress enough to stop the leak. If I am careful, I might be able to skim off the inside of the flange to get the seating to the correct depth, then take the same amount from under the flange face to put everything back to original. That will save me having to make a complete new flange, and everything that it involves.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher31.jpg)
So now we are on the downwards slope, just this job to do, plus a few parts to make from the drawings that are missing from the reversing linkage, and I will be ready to start the build up.
Bogs
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It's the size that gets me, these parts are so small.
I'm not sure I could see them never mind machine them :bow:
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Darren,
These are large compared to some bits I have to make for steam engines. It is all in the mind. As long as you can hold it rigid enough, you should be able to machine it.
Not used on these bits as they are fairly large, but I have a 1" micro sized grinding vice that holds the small bits and then that is mounted into the normal vice.
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices
The smallest one in the first lot.
John
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I nearly fell off me chair laughin....9mm opening, jaw 25mm width.... :lol:
Sorry, I'll go to the back of the class...... :hammer:
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Bogs,
This is going to be a bit :offtopic: but I followed the link you gave. Very nice place to get tooling and the like.
But what interested me was link to the location via google map. I looked around using the satelite veiwing. Can't believe how those houses are packed in there like sardines in a can. I can now understand why you chaps that live in cities have such small shops. I can also see why it takes you so long to get somewhere. Don't seem to be any direct routes to were you want to go.
Bernd
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Thats exactly why I live where I do :ddb:
Google LL41 ...
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Darren,
Laughable or not, sometimes that is the only way to hold really small parts in the mill or on the grinder, big vices for big things and sometimes small but little vices for small or tiny.
Bernd,
I told you ages ago about how cramped we were, and showed you how tightly packed the houses are.
I am not too bad, as I did have a reasonably sized garden until the shop went in.
Like Darren, if you look for CW1 3RQ you should be able to find my shop in the rear garden, from aerial photos, it shows up as a large white rectangle.
Bogs
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Thats exactly why I live where I do :ddb:
Google LL41 ...
I found one Darren, Tanygrisiau, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Gwynedd, LL41, it's right next to the Ffestiniog Railway. :lol: :lol:
Regards,
Bernd
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Boy Bogs, you are cramped in there. I thought the houses over here in the housing tract were jammed together, you guys are even closer.
No more "space" jokes from me. Honest, unless of course..... :wack:....... no never mind.
Bernd
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Those little steam engines are a marvel, old quarry engines.
Have to wonder if they are large models or little real ones. They are stunning though. They pass right by my house.
Peeps come from all over the world to see them. They have been extending the track (putting it back) over the last few years. Now you can travel for many miles on them through stunning scenery where no roads go.
I must take a trip one day, never have...yet..
-
Now to get this steam control valved fixed. I have decided to try the fix I mentioned in the last post, and if it won't work, only a few minutes will be lost.
The first job was to clean up the end where I had to hacksaw the lever off.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher32.jpg)
This is the first part of the fix, skim 0.015" (0.4mm) off the end of the internal spigot. This is also where the o-ring fits into, so that will allow the ring to sit further out and push against the spool face to form a seal.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher33.jpg)
The same amount was taken off the flange face. By doing this, the spigot will still sit in the same position, but the ring will be deeper in the bore, so allowing the makeshift fix of a shim under the spool to be redundant.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher34.jpg)
Now you can see what has happened. The o-ring is holding the spool away from the flange which the spool was previously rubbing against.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher35.jpg)
When assembled completely, this gap here will be closed, forcing the ring against the spool and forming a steam tight joint.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher36.jpg)
So to final assembly of the valve. A dollop of good quality steam oil was put into the bottom of the chamber.
Because this valve is using very fine tolerances to work, I won't fit gaskets, so each joint face was painted with Hylomar jointing compound, and the valve was assembled. The spool now runs between the bottom face of the chamber and the o-ring, as it should do, instead of between the shim and the spigot face.
I checked the turning pressure and it was spot on, a nice constant drag as it was rotated. So it looks like the fix has definitely worked.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher37.jpg)
Seeing as I hacked the operating lever off the valve, I had better make another.
A bit of scrap stock was selected for the job.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher38.jpg)
A few minutes on the mill had the makings of a handle. If you can just see the scribings on the blued up bar, I have drawn up what I want it to look like, to put it into the same operating area as the old one.
Because the engine will be radio controlled, there will be holes drilled into the arm that match the standard centre and hole pitches of a servo control arm (the black bit). This will make setting up a lot easier.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher39.jpg)
After a bit of manual cutting out on the mill, the handle is finished. The handle can be mounted in any position so that it suits the operator how he wants the way for the valve to work.
Now if the valve starts to leak steam after the o-ring is worn out, take off the handle, remove four small screws and the ring can be changed. Because of the way Hylomar works, it should be able to be reassembled without changing the gasket cement, because it never sets. So five minutes at the most to change the ring
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher40.jpg)
I now have to make some missing parts, so I will make those as per the plans, but because it will be radio controlled, I have to design a friction slip joint for the reverse operating lever. That will be a bit of trial and error, but it shouldn't take too long, I have ideas in my head already.
Bogs
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John,
have you seen these quick clamps ?
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/New-Products/Vices-and-Clamps
two up from the bottom. No real defined use but different uses for different people.
JS.
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John,
I had seen those bits, but couldn't really make up my mind if I really needed any.
I suppose because they are so cheap, they are not worth making a copy of, so next time I order, I might get a couple, just in case I ever have a use for them. You never know, they just might turn out to be a tool you can't live without.
John
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They look very handy to have, I like the way this chap is using them to reference his center tool :thumbup:
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4294.30
I think a set will be going on the order list :thumbup:
-
I love to see a craftsman at work. I believe your customer picked the right man for the job!
I do love to see posts like this. While it may seem to you that you are just doing simple tasks in a common rebuild/repair... the viewing collective are picking up many hints and tricks. Thanks John!
Eric
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I love to see a craftsman at work. I believe your customer picked the right man for the job!
I do love to see posts like this. While it may seem to you that you are just doing simple tasks in a common rebuild/repair... the viewing collective are picking up many hints and tricks. Thanks John!
Eric
Personally I think he's winging it, he should have been finished by 3:47 last Tuesday afternoon.
:poke:
.
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Personally I think he's winging it, he should have been finished by 3:47 last Tuesday afternoon.
You're quite right John, I could have had it finished, but to tell you the truth, I am letting Bandit do it, but he isn't quite up on all the techniques just yet, so he is a slow worker. I am just taking credit for the job.
Until I can get crutches permantly fixed to the saddle of the lathe and the table on the mill, everything is going a little slow at the moment.
Bogs
-
but to tell you the truth, I am letting Bandit do it, but he isn't quite up on all the techniques just yet, so he is a slow worker.
:thumbup:
You watch out he dosen't get too much swarf in his coat and paws John..... I'll be there next week to inspect the job he's doing first hand :coffee: (Cause I know what I'm looking at ehh!?!?! ::) :lol:)
That said, it all looks good to me :headbang: As Eric said.... We're (the lowly newbies) all picking up little bits here and there and it's here in glorious technicolour if we ever need to refer back to it :)
Take your time (I'm sure the owner is happy about the pace) and keep up the very good thread :beer:
Ralph.
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I actually had to take a rest over the weekend, but I have got a little done today.
If you remember, I left the last post saying I had some parts to make that were missing from the engine. Basically all the bits above the rod need to be made, except the part in the very middle just above the rod. I have to design and make a friction device rather than a locking one. The design is done, so that will be made tomorrow.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher41.jpg)
The smaller the bits, it seems the longer they take to make. These have taken me most of the day, but I have been working ten minutes on, half hour off.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher42.jpg)
This shot is to give you some feeling of scale. These bits have yet to be cleaned up fully.
The little handle took a bit of figuring out, but as soon as I got the ball hand shaped to within 0.002" of a 3/16" sphere (slightly larger than shown on plan, remember friction joint, so needs to be a tiny bit larger) it worked out dead simple to finish off.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher43.jpg)
Medicos first thing, then member visitors in the afternoon, so I will have to get my a**e into gear if I am going to get the other bits done tomorrow.
Slow down Bogs
-
Nothing to add.....
I`m sat here, just shaking me head...... ::)
Astonishment, admiration, respect..... :headbang:
David D
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What amazes me John is the chrispness you get in those small parts, :clap:
I can make small parts Ok, but they seem to lack definition for example rads are out scale etc. you'll have to show me how you do it one day.
Cheers
Stew
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Thanks chaps,
I keep saying, nothing special required, just a bit of trying, you never know you can do it until you try.
Stew, if you mean the rads on the ends of the arm, nothing more than a soft steel throwaway filing button.
Must get my ball turner finished though, small ones are dead easy by hand, but big ones are a pain.
John
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I was looking in particular at the locking arm and the domed nut.
Stew
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Stew,
It is just a little matter of hand/eye coordination, plus, the more you do, the better you get.
For the last five years or so, I couldn't do any because of an accident. It was only last year after a second operation and got the use of my arm back that I found out I hadn't lost the knack, and I do hand filing and shaping as much as I can now, within my limitations.
It is called job satisfaction.
John
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Sorry it has been so long since I have done anything on this post, but because I can only do a little bit at a time at the moment, I waited until I had a bit more to show you all.
So all the snippets for the last few days are now shown.
I needed to produce a friction slide, so that when the engine is running, the handle will be held by friction, but by putting a little pressure on the handle from a radio servo, the joint will slip to its new position, and when stopped, will carry on as though it was still a solid joint.
A little thought had to be put into the selection of friction material. Because it is a fairly high temp and oily area, most friction materials were ruled out, so that left me with basically a choice of two. PTFE or metal to metal.
PTFE was ruled out because it is too slick, and I thought I would have great trouble getting it to act as a stable friction pad.
So after a little more thought, I settled on a steel and phos bronze combination. Both have good wear characteristics and shouldn't be affected by heat and oil.
You have seen a few of these bits before, but I have made a few extras to complete the job.
The friction bits are in fact either side of the slotted link on the left. The steel screw has a pad of PB fixed onto the end of it. The pad has flat on either side of a little stub that fits into the link slot, this effectively stops the screw turning when it is all tightened up. So after the screw is put thru the link, the PB washer is put on, that forms the friction brake. Then the handle, followed by the tensioning device (a spring on a couple of free rotating collars), the spring is compressed or loosened by the little knurled nut, which in turn is locked in position by the fancy handled nut after the correct friction setting is found.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher44.jpg)
This is what it looks like when assembled.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher45.jpg)
This is roughly what it will look like on the finished engine.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher46.jpg)
A view from the top.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher47.jpg)
So now those bits are made, the engine can be built up. So the engine was stripped of all the unwanted bits for the time being and assembly starts in earnest. It is this part that is the most critical, everything has to be done in the correct order, otherwise you might find you can't fit or adjust certain parts. I will, without fail, find some bits that I have made will require tweaking to get everything running smoothly, but it will just be a little tweak here and there.
The first job is to repack the stuffing glands on the steam chests.
On stripdown, I pulled the old packing out, and found it is rolled up PTFE tape. There is nothing wrong with this method of packing, but being an old fashioned type, I like to use old fashioned techniques that have been used over the last couple of centuries. Also I don't tend to use the new packing string material, that is covered in graphite. I use the real old muck, that is impregnated with a waxy grease, with just a little graphite. I find that when it is set in and the grease has warmed up then solidified, it makes a great steam tight joint, but also a very good self lubricating bearing surface.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher48.jpg)
So the bits are assembled in the right order, and a strand of packing string is wrapped around the shaft. The string is pushed down inside the stuffing gland and the gland nut is tightened down. You continue to add or remove string until the nut is in by about half it's threads, and the packing is exerting enough pressure to make the shaft slightly difficult to push in and out with your fingers. The gland will soon settle down and become a very good friction free, steam tight joint.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher49.jpg)
After packing, this is what it looks like. There is enough tightening adjustment on the nut to give many years trouble free steaming. If a whisp of steam starts to escape, a one flat turn on the nut should make the joint steam tight again.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher50.jpg)
The pair of steam chests ready for going onto the main block.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher51.jpg)
A thin gasket was fitted between each steam chest and the main block. It was at this time, one of my mods needed a final fiddle with. The slots on the slide valves were deepened slightly to allow the slide valve to lift off it's mating face by about 0.010" (0.25mm). After that the steam chamber was tightened down and valves and linkages were connected up, but the chest covers were left off to allow me to accurately time the engine.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher52.jpg)
The rear end of the engine was given the same treatment, but also I put on the friction slide.
Because this engine didn't have these bits fitted originally, the linkage operating handle (or the rod it fixed on) was incorrectly made. So to allow the timing to be done, the handle was loctited onto the shaft and the operating linkage was all zeroed up.
After the timing is done, I will drill and pin the joint to make it permanent.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher53.jpg)
If I am up to it tomorrow, I will set up the timing, and finish off the rebuild.
I do have a few extra bits to make, but they are just decorative requests by the customer, and won't hold up getting the engine to a running state.
Bogs
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I was going to ask you why the steam glands on the paddleducks engine had the two piece design connected by threads, but I guess this explains it. :smart:
-
Kvom,
As I said in the post, PTFE tape just twisted up to make like a piece of string will be perfectly good enough for most engines. So there is no need to go searching out any specialist packing materials.
It is only because I like to use only the best in rebuilds that I go to such trouble. The joint I made will last for many trouble free years, and will only need repacking when the adjustment runs out.
The stuffing gland has to be packed. Not only does it prevent leakage, but also forms the bottom bearing surface for the cylinder or operating rod.
Bogs
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Looking Good there John :thumbup:
I'll be one of the reasons that this post was slowed down :wave: spent much of Thursday at Johns chatting, visiting the scrap yard and then also chatting with Stew, went round to Stews shop too..... I don't fit in there!!! :jaw: :lol:
I do enjoy a gathering and a chat, thank you fellas.... it was a most enjoyable day :thumbup:
We did look at this little beastie, it had the new friction linkage done at that time. A little fettling later it all seems to be coming together John :headbang:
Keep us posted :)
Ralph.
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went round to Stews shop too..... I don't fit in there!!! :jaw: :lol:
I do enjoy a gathering and a chat, thank you fellas.... it was a most enjoyable day :thumbup:
Ralph.
It was a size thing I'm only 5' 9" Ralph must be 6' +, the shop head room is only just over 6' its what you call in the trade a head banger shop
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:.
It was enjoyable meeting up and chatting :thumbup:
Have fun
Stew
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Gorgeous engine work there John...
And thanks for taking the time to explain the packing. I always wondered in the back of my mind about that.. and as you started explaining it.. I was starting to go.. "OH YEAH!! That is how its done.. and why..... I wondered about that!"
BTW.. Hylomar..
I LOVE that stuff.
It is ALWAYS on hand in my garage. I have one tube in reserve, and one in use.
It is ESSENTIAL for a rotary engine rebuild.
The rotary is basically a sammich of Cast Iron and Aluminum. With big ole O rings. One for the combustion area.. and one for the water jacket.
HOWEVER... the metal everywhere else is in contact with the dissimilar metal.
A HUGE problem many people ru n into is the heating and cooling of dissimilar metals. Cast Iron and Aluminum.. VERY different heating rates. And the end result of this difference is galling of the surfaces that mate.
The galling leads to leaks. The little tiny amount of galling eventually builds up little balls of metal that worsen things until eventually you start to leak oil or water in an area where the galling has been happening.
The Hylomar works two fold.. it makes a very nice thin seal.. and it also lubricates the two surfaces.. so when they heat and expand at different rates.. the seal is not broken.. and the metal is able to expand without galling.
Love the stuff.
Scott
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This was supposed to be the last post for this topic, but due to unforseen circumstances, it is the penultimate one.
As I said on the last post, I am just making a few extras for the customer to make his engine a little easier to operate and a lot nicer on the eye.
This is one he didn't ask for, but I recognised a problem. To empty his displacement lubricator, he would have to take the bottom plug all the way out to get rid of the water in there. This will also drop any oil that is left, and has to wait until there is no or very little pressure in the line.
I knocked up a new plug that when it is undone by 1 full turn, any water is dropped out of the bottom of the plug, and as soon as oil is noticed, it can easily be closed off. This will also work with pressure in the line, using it to force the water out.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher54.jpg)
You can see how it just screws into the normal place on the bottom of the displacement lubricator.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher55.jpg)
I had been asked to fit small acorn (domed) nuts onto the cylinder covers. But as you can see, the original one on the right just didn't have enough 'land' to fit the nuts on, as they would have hung over the edge of the cover. So a new slightly larger pair of covers were made, the beginnings can be seen on the left. Also what can be seen is a piece of hex bar to make the nuts out of.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher56.jpg)
A new pair of covers, they still need to be drilled and have three flats put on them so that they don't look too large for the top when they are fitted. Also, studs have to be fitted like they were on the steam chest covers.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher57.jpg)
Now a quicky lesson on how to make acorn nuts.
Hex bar was cut and trimmed down to 4.5mm long.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher58.jpg)
For fast precision drilling, I mounted the tapping drill into the tailstock chuck and fitted a piece of tube over the drill. Then using a digivern, I set 4mm sticking out of the end of the tube. So no matter how far the bit is sticking out of the chuck, the tube will bottom and I will have holes drilled to 4mm depth. The bits were centre drilled before drilling, and they were tapped and countersunk slightly afterwards.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher59.jpg)
This is what I ended up with.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher60.jpg)
The next job was to grind up a small profile tool that cut from the tip of the work towards the chuck, rather than a side plunge cut, which meant I could use my saddle stop to end the cut and I wouldn't need to touch the cross feed after it was set to depth.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher61.jpg)
A bit of brass bar was mounted up, face off and tapped to accept a little piece of 8BA threaded rod.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher62.jpg)
So all that needed to be done is, put a nut onto the threaded rod, and feed the saddle until it reached the stop. Nut profiled, next one.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher63.jpg)
So this is how many I got made (just over half of what is required) before my lathe motor decided it didn't want to work properly any more. It would not ramp up by itself, just turning over slowly until I spun the chuck up by hand, then it would climb up to full speed. A quick call to Chester UK verified that the caps had gone in the motor, and a brand new motor will be with me first thing in the morning. Can't be fairer than that. Mate coming around tomorrow to help swing the lathe out and swap over the motor. Then I can get these little buggers finished off.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher64.jpg)
So the steam chest covers will get these little beasties, and the cylinder covers as well (when the nuts are finished).
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher65.jpg)
This is a little bit I have done previously, put a kink in the operating handle to get me a bit more meat onto the back rod. The collar on the handle was drilled 8BA clearance and the rod was tapped thru 8BA. This will allow the handle to be more easily removed than if it was pinned as shown on the plans. Also a set of correct pitch servo holes were drilled to allow radio operation of the handle.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher66.jpg)
This would have been on it's way to the customer today if the problem with the lathe hadn't happened, so I have contacted him and apologised for the delay. For his understanding, I will make him something special for this engine while I am waiting for the motor.
The next post will definitely be the last.
Bewildered Bogs.
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John
Do you need any help with that motor tomorrow ?.
Stew
-
Thanks very much for the offer Stew, but my mate has got it all in hand, I will just let him do it all.
I will sit on one of my tall chairs and shout him instructions, while keeping out of spanner range. :lol:
But if you could call around to pick up that sample I was talking to you about, that would be great.
John
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Bugger about the lathe John!!! :bugeye:
I do like the drill stop.... Seems so easy once you've seen it done :doh:
I'm not going to fall into the obvious trap..... But, I do like your acorns! And your method of preparing them :ddb:
Hope all the motor repair goes to plan! :zap:
Ralph.
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Hi John,
Small world! The owner of the engine you're working on picked me :scratch: to give him a few tips as he assembles his Graham Industries TVR1A. He steered me here when I commented on the fine boat in his video on YouTube. If I'd known that he had access to your expertise, I would have headed for the exit - fortunately, I didn't lead him too far astray.
Glad to hear that you're back in form and as usual, another great series of posts. :bow:
Floyd
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Floyd,
I had noticed this engine on You Tube before I got it into my grubby fat hands, and thought it wasn't quite running right then.
I just hope he is pleased with the work I have done to date. Not having the timing destructions causes a bit of a problem, but it is running OK with the general settings I have given it. But it would have been nice to be able to set it up perfectly to what the designer wanted to do with it.
Actually, I am not on form, and this might be the last 'how I do it' post for a while. My brain and soul is willing, but the body thinks otherwise.
Ralph,
As you know I do have very high precision drilling facilities on my tailstock, but that is really for special one offs, for quick and dirty, you can't beat the little tube method. In my drill boxes, I have all sizes of bits of tube for doing such jobs.
Once you have set up a job like this, and got all your bits prepared, you can knock them out all day long without having to turn your brain on.
It does seem like monkey jobs, but I am used to production runs, and will quite happily sit there all day knocking out special little bits like this. Other people are ready for a 1" drill bit in the drill press, and stick their heads under it after half an hour of such work.
If they don't ask for the old motor back, I should be able to replace the caps and have a spare on the shelf should it ever happen again.
I think it is the same fault John Hill had with his a while back, as they are basically the same machine.
But honestly boss, I didn't let any of the smoke out. :lol:
Bogs
-
But if you could call around to pick up that sample I was talking to you about, that would be great.
John
I hope it not the sort of sample that comes in a bottle :lol:
I'll be around at about 10.00 this morning
Cheers
Stew
-
True to their word, this morning, just after Stew had left, a package arrived from Chester UK.
It was hell of a struggle watching the better half carrying it to the back of the house and unpacking it to set up a photo shoot. The thing must have weighed about 40lbs+.
But I soon recovered, and managed to turn the camera on without hurting myself.
Piccies below.
I love those chaps at Chester UK.
Bogs
-
Now that is good service :)
Chester sounds pretty good too :lol:
I'm surprised they gave you a whole motor and not just some replacement caps, top marks to them :thumbup:
-
I like Chester`s service....... :thumbup:
David D
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Darren,
I suggested just sending me the caps, but they insisted I take the whole motor. Most probably they have heard about my reputation when working with wiggly amps :zap:
Who am I to tell them what to do?
Maybe they just love me as well as I do them. :lol:
John
-
Is that a standard collet you were using to hold the hex stock?
Very interesting process to make those nuts. :clap:
-
Kvom,
Over the years, I have found that buying hex collets is just a waste of money, as hex can easily be held perfectly in a round collet as long as you place the hex into the collet correctly, that is, keeping the corners on the hex away from the three slots.
If you were machining some nasty stuff hex bar, which puts a lot of force on the cutting tool, then yes, use a hex collet, but otherwise you will find a round collet just perfect.
Square bar is another matter completely, and I have square collets in standard metric and imperial sizes. You can sometimes hold square in a round collet, but very infrequently can you hold it perfectly, because of the slot positions. For large square or odd sizes, I use my four jaw self centring chuck.
John
-
Most probably they have heard about my reputation
John
That may have some bearing, :ddb:
-
Here is an actual video of this engine before it was sent to me.
I can now see why the rear end of the engine overheated, the burner for the boiler is directly below and to one side of the hot end. My customer has now moved the boiler back slightly, and that should alleviate the problem.
The continual drone BTW is the burner for the boiler making itself known. It also shows the problem of getting the engine running and going into reverse from a standstill.
A good day yesterday, lathe fixed and an old steam friend and mentor contacted me, and he came up with the destructions for getting the timing spot on for this particular model of engine. It was pure luck that the lathe went down, instead of having the engine set to general running settings (perfectly OK), it will now allow me to get it perfect (or as near as can be done with the coarse thread adjustment available).
Finish off the acorn nuts, and another couple of hours retiming the engine, and I should be done.
Bogs
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WoW!! Ok I have never seen a R/C steam boat before... and that is one sweet machine there!
I have to say.. I love the hydros, and nitro boats.. but I think.. honestly I would rather have one of the steamers. Looks like a lot more fun. More to tweak and fiddle with.. and less to repair from crashes. :doh:
-
Thanks for showing John I had no idea how nice those boats were took a few pics of one at Horrogate but you get a better apreciation when you see them running.
Hi lifts the lid off a copper cylinder is that a condenser.
Stew
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Stew,
I think it is a miniature hot water boiler for making tea. The one he opened the valve on top and blew the water over the side was the condenser.
John
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Well ............... I've spent a good part of this evening reading this thread and I have to say ............. it was worth evey minute :thumbup:
Thank you John, as ever ............... first class, very informative and interesting, but most of all ............. dam fine reading :headbang:
Dave
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So good to see you at it again John, It is so nice to see someone put that kind of work into a project. Thanks for posting for us to see.
Tim
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Thank you gents for the nice comments.
I am a sucker for these types of engines, and if it is within my power to extend it's working life, then I will put heart and soul into making it so.
The main problems are getting the required information, luckily this owner had the plans for it, and a very good friend had the timing setup. So it made my life a lot easier.
I will do a vid of it when it is all reassembled.
John
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I have gone back and read this post from beginning to end twice. So a nice looking engine... John, the work you did and the parts you made go well with it. High quality indeed! You sir, are an artist at what you do. Thanks for the very interesting read.
That goes for anyone else... post it up... even if you think it is boring and no-one would be interested... we might just prove you wrong.
Thanks for taking the time to document John. I picked up quite a few pointers.
Eric
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You are welcome Eric, just wish I could do a bit more.
Anyway, as I said, here is the last post. I have in fact done a fair amount to this engine, but I haven't catalogued it all. But I will point out the bits on the following pics.
When these engines are mounted into a model boat, most builders don't have machining facilities, so they do their best with what they have. Most put a couple of bearing beams stuck to the boat's framework, with a nut epoxied under the beams at the bottom of each mounting hole. They work great for a while, until you come to remove the engine. Over time, the wood absorbs all the oil and crap from the running engine, and eventually the epoxy loses it's grip. So when the mounting bolts are turned, the nuts turn with them, and the engine can't be removed. So the whole lot has to come out of the boat, usually making a bit of a mess of the internal woodwork.
In the pic on the left are the bearing beams that were still attached to the engine when I received it.
So as a gesture of goodwill for taking so long with this engine, I have made my customer a metal bedplate that can be fixed permanently into the boat, and the engine can be screwed and unscrewed from it when needed, I have also put a few extra engine mounting holes in it to allow a bit of fwd/backwards adjustment.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher67.jpg)
The next few pics show the finished engine.
I retimed the engine meticulously, and struck a fine balance to get it running the best it will ever run with this porting and linkage setup.
As you can clearly see, the new end and top plates have been fitted with acorn nuts, and the engine is sitting on it's new bedplate.
I modified the top of the lubricator by putting a large countersink into the top threads. This helps retain the o-ring seal and stops it being blown out of position by the pressure and also the screw top doesn't need to be tightened down too hard to form a seal.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher68.jpg)
This back end view shows the main bits I have made. All there was in the beginning was the fwd/rev lever, and even that wasn't fixed on in the right position. So as mentioned before, a link and friction system was designed and made, and it works perfectly. It allows the lever to go up and down, but stops the lever bounce that is usually associated with this type of linkage.
Also notice the linkage coming down from the lever.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher69.jpg)
This was designed and made to allow a servo to operate the fwd/rev lever, and by positioning the bellcrank where it is, allows a much easier connection to the servo. The link rod was made adjustable to allow very fine tuning of the linkage.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/marcher70.jpg)
So basically gents, that is how I do it. It is a shame I have had to take so long over it. I just hope the customer is pleased when he receives it tomorrow.
So here is a little vid of it running, sorry it is not up to Ralph's standard, but it is the best I could do at the time.
Bogs
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Fantastico
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
I really enjoyed that, I can understand why you like those small engines so much.
Serprized :bugeye: that you could throw them in revers wile still running.
Cheers
Stew
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Cracking little episode there again John, as usual I think most of us have really enjoyed the viewing.
Shame it has to come to an end, but then I suppose he'd want his engine back.....selfish or what.... :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
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Stew,
Most of these double acting engines have no problems changing over on the run. But can be a bit temperamental when running on low pressure air. When running on steam, they behave completely differently. That is because the steam is continually expanding, so is producing power all the time it is in the engine. Even at low pressures on steam, reversing is not a problem, whereas with air it is a bit hit and miss.
Your loco should be able to do the same thing, wheel spin and sparks.
Darren,
Actually I am glad it is finished, even though I really enjoy doing this sort of thing, at the moment I just can't cope. I have one more small job for a chap in Oz to do, then I am having to shut up shop for a while.
John
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Sweet little runner there John :thumbup:
Like the frame too, much better than the brown stuff :)
Enjoyed the thread and liked the fact I got to see the little beastie in person too :ddb:
Videos... Well I don't like talking on mine, haven't quite got the voice for it!! :lol:
Glad you made the effort to document it :clap:
Ralph.
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Very nice job John. Another superb thread by you. Learned a few things along the way as well. You even answered a question I was going to ask you. Must be ESP or something.
Don't like the sound of haveing to shut up the shop for a while. But I assume you need a bit of rest after all that work. :thumbup:
Bernd
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Don't like the sound of haveing to shut up the shop for a while.
No, that doesn't sound like much fun, I hope nothing too serious John.... :med:
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Gorgeous piece of work there John.
Always a pleasure to see your work, and follow the progress along the way!! :clap:
I hope after the next project things smooth out for you and you are able to ease back into the fun stuff when ready. :thumbup:
Scott
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Thank you John...... :thumbup:
Another job done well. Shown and explained well too! :clap:
Hope your other problems are soon sorted.......
David D
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I too would like to thank you for taking the time to document this repair job in such a well covered, easy to follow way. :thumbup: :thumbup:
I have to say that I always enjoy reading your build/repair/advice posts and would aspire to be able to explain things in a similar way.
I hope you wont have to stay away from your workshop for long.
Tim
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Just a little update.
The customer was very happy with all the work I had carried out on the engine.
But a very dark cloud hung over the proceedings.
I had very carefully packaged the engine up inside a very solid plastic storage box, which was then packed inside a larger cardboard box surrounded by crumpled up newspaper. On receipt, he noticed damage to the box exterior.
The picture shows the damage that was caused. Notice the 'ding in the plastic box lid.
Luckily only the copper pipe was damaged, and will be a relatively easy repair.
So if it will not straighten out perfectly, I will be making a claim on the insurance I paid for sending it.
John
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Don't you just become fed up with the postal service that we actually pay for.... :bang:
All that care and effort you have personaly taken over this engine re-build, and they do this...
Thanks for letting us know the customer is still pleased though, job very well done :clap:
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Luckily only the copper pipe was damaged, and will be a relatively easy repair.
Still bloomin' annoying :wack: .............. glad the customer was pleased, mind you I'd have been very surprised if he hadn't :scratch:
CC
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Bit of an old resurrection going on here, but I thought you might be interested on how this engine is going on.
The gent who I did the work for sent me a link today
It is a bit of a long video, but I think he was carried away by being very proud of his boat, and by how well the engine performed after it was given a dose of looking at.
This engine will be returning to me in the near future, when my backlog subsides a bit, to have the bottom end refurbished. Then it should be good enough for another 40 years.
Bogs
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That's great.....even got a lump in me throat watching that.... :clap:
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Bogs,
Nice job on that engine. Looks like a very smooth runner. I wonder if he runs on one boiler filing or weather he draws water from the pond. I don't remember seeing a water pump on it.
Nice vid, by the way.
Bernd
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Thats really awesome.. its really cool when you take the time and care to do something right. And to do a very special job (normal job at your level) of repairing, and refurbishing his baby... and then you see the result in the video of how much he treasures her. That really has to make it all worth it for you. Cause I am going on a limb here /WINK... I think you are not doing this stuff for the money :)
Good stuff :) Nice job John
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Real nice video that little boat is giving a great deal of pleasure to a lot of people.
Stew
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WOW, that is one of the most beautiful works of art I have seen in a long time. Your work is anything but bogstandard, and I hope things go well so you are able to create other works of art like this for a long time yet.
You Sir are an artisan, and embody all that is good about engineering. You have this young(ish) person's utmost respect, and I'm very glad you are taking the time to document what you do so it is not lost to the generations. We need role models like you. Thank you.
Stefan.
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That boat looks like it runs nice with the refurbed engine John. Nice work indeed. I loved this post... I assume you will do one when you refurb the bottm end?
Thanks for the post John!
Eric
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Don't worry Eric, I am sure that when it comes back, I will carry on this post for a little longer.
John
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Hi Guys,
Has anybody read ME lately, 'cos someone appears to be taking credit for Bogs' work.
Scandalous, I say! :hammer:
Ned Ludd
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Ned
I showed the article to John yesterday, he confirmed it was his and that the owner of the engine had told him it was going to appear in the magazine.
He seemed content with that situation.
Stew
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Hi Stew,
Glad to hear Bogs is content with the situation, but it is bad form for the magazine "author" to do the write up in the first person, implying his own work.
Did Bogs get his fair share of the estimated £700 (14 pages at £50/page) the "author" got paid?
Ned
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Ned
I think it is best for John to answer that in his own words, if you go to this thread on the ME web site you can read Johns reply.
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=40377
Stew
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hi lads
i have just been through the article in ME and its a word for word ,photo for photo copy of Bogs post ,,,,,,,, Roy Burton ,,,has done a cut and paste job and makes out the work is all his own ,,,,,,,,,what a knob
Cheers Rob
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hi lads
i have just been through the article in ME and its a word for word ,photo for photo copy of Bogs post ,,,,,,,, Roy Burton ,,,has done a cut and paste job and makes out the work is all his own ,,,,,,,,,what a knob
Cheers Rob
I think the correct term is "What a wanker - it's a pity his dad wasn't "
John S.
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Hi JohnS,
You mean he has a full and active, if somewhat lonely, sex life. :lol:
Ned
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Gentlemen .... Gentlemen .... Gentlemen ....
Please spare a thought for others who read this Forum.
Others such as myself, living a life of Purity and Innocence.
Such vulgarities !! You've quite curdled my Ovaltine ..
Probably accurate though .. :thumbup:
Dave BC
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you mean this engine, the one that needs the bottom end doing
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Steam-Launch-SL-Lady-Beatrice-/160438743258?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item255ae4f0da
peter
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just plain bollocks
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you mean this engine, the one that needs the bottom end doing
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Steam-Launch-SL-Lady-Beatrice-/160438743258?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item255ae4f0da
peter
Thats the one Peter.
Stew
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Hi John
Where do you get that PTFE sheet from ?.
Stew
Davis Industrial Plastics are pretty good for that sort of thing, and have a "small quantities for hobbyists" section. Go to http://www.shopforplastic.co.uk/ and follow the link to Smaller Quantities.
Here's their page on PTFE sheet: http://www.shopforplastic.co.uk/ptfe-teflon-sheet-101-c.asp
Andy
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The whole thing seems very shabby, by the way the pipe work on the model is a disgrace, shows a lack of respect for all the work done by Bogs on the engine.
I must say I also feel very let down by the magazine Ill think twice before I purchase the next magazine.
I have just finished the Borderer a slightly bigger version of the Marcher and found the refit very interesting however having gone through the hard graft of making the engine (by the way I am not in the same league as Bogs he's my hero!) I think credit where it is due.
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In consideration of Bogs, I took a look at e-bay and the boat for saile, and found it ironic that the seller didn't get a single bid on the boat, so now he has another dillema, whether to re-list it after all the expose on the engine and the work it's had, and who did it. I don't know you, Bogs, but as an engine builder/rebuilder for old Harleys, I'd slap the dog sh** out of anyone taking credit for my engine work, when they were selling a bike. I've got a reputation I worked long and hard to earn, and I'm right proud of the work I do, and would undo it without a qualm, with a .45 round through the engine cases if I got a ration of sh** from such a person. The quality of the work of all those who are posting on this forum is determined exactly by the standard of honor and "right", each individual has, and what they have experienced to become who they are. If you can't do it, don't steal it and claim it as your own, have the testicular fortitude to find what you can do, and get good at it, and be a man. In my book, anything less is still a boy, and needing a good paddling. An odd thought, could a "paddleducks engine" be added to in order to be able to provide such a paddling, automated? There's an "antique store" twenty miles from here that has a pedal operated paddling machine, with a bicycle seat and handlebars for the paddler, and a bar to bend of for the paddlee. :lol: mad jack