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Gallery, Projects and General => How to's => Topic started by: bogstandard on February 28, 2009, 07:24:04 PM

Title: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on February 28, 2009, 07:24:04 PM
Here we go again, clearing items from the backlog of jobs I have promised people I would do for them. :clap:

I remember seeing one of these that a long time machinist had made for himself, but it was about twice as long. The longer it can be made the easier to use and more accurate it will be. He did piece work, so anything that speeded up the tramming process meant more money in his pocket. :thumbup:

A friend has asked me to make him one of these, and he has already given me the relevent dimension required, I think for an X1 mill.

These are produced commercially, in a slightly different design. How they can have the audacity to patent it, I have no idea. :scratch:

If you find one during your searches, please don't relate to it in this post. Issues have arisen over copyright on another post, and I don't want it rearing it's head here. :wack:

The one I will be making will be a short version, that will tram in both X and Y axis. But there is nothing stopping you making one much longer, just for use in the X axis. I should really have done that with mine, as I have no tramming adjustment in the Y axis on my mill, maybe I will just make another one but longer. :dremel:

Now a few things that need to be said.

Please don't ask about tramming in this post, if you don't know what it is or how to do it, please raise a seperate topic and all questions will be answered there. :poke:

The other main issue is that this will end up as a precision instrument, and if your machinery or yourself are not up to working to tight tolerances, I would suggest you wait until you have the relevent experience or machinery. Get it wrong, and you will be doing a non tramming exercise on your mill. :smart:

You will require a faceplate on your lathe with the same or larger diameter as the main bar is long, or if you can come up with something that will do the job I will be showing later, then good, but the accuracy of this tool depends on the final cutting on the lathe. If you can work to tolerances of 0.002" (0.05mm) or lower, you should be OK. :clap:

This is easily only a one day job. Its takes me much longer because I can only work a couple of hours at a time, and I make the post up out of what I have done in that time. :med:


So away we go, showing what I have been up to today in my little shop of horrors.


I will be turning this,

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram01.jpg)


Into one of these.
It looks an easy exercise, but as I have said, all the work is keeping everything accurate, and being done in the correct sequence.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram02.jpg)


These are the rough materials I will be using for the job. I will be showing things in imperial for our US cousins, but actually I will be working in metric as that is the size of most of the bolts and bits used.
The length of the ali bar isn't shown yet, as that will be determined later, this one is about 8" long. You could just as easily make the bar out of steel, as long as you can get the surface finishes required. There is no handwork allowed except for deburring. By hand finishing surfaces, you will be introducing errors into the precision faces, unless you have a real nice lapping plate, and know how to use it correctly. The steel bar is 5/8" diameter.
You can work with larger or smaller dimensions, but it will be up to you to modify the design to your materials. These are the ideal sizes for the gauges I have.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram03.jpg)


This shows how deep the material should be for the gauges you are using, the sensing tips should be protruding out of the bottom of the finished tool by roughly the amount shown. You can use slightly shallower bar, but the gripping area for the top part of the gauge rod will not be supported as much. You don't want too much sticking out of the bottom as it makes the part vunerable to being knocked.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram04.jpg)


If you are going to be making the dual axis version, you will need the dimension as roughly shown between the two points of the gauges. The easy way is to measure from centre to centre of the outside rails of the table. If just making the X axis version, just make it as long as you feel is right, 12" would be a good figure (if you have a faceplate that can take it).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram05.jpg)


So now we get to the machining bit, cleaning up the bits of rough material I have selected.

There is a bit of a catch 22 situation here, because of the high accuracy of machining and drilling, the mill needs to be trammed up as close to perfection as you can get it. I had no trouble, as I already have a tramming tool, you will just have to do it the hard way until you have made yours. A sure sign of having the tramming spot on, is when flycutting, you will get very fine pattern marks showing that it is cutting on both the forwards and backwards cut as it goes over the material.
Here it is just cleaning up the surfaces, with a 5 thou cut. I went thru the procedure as though I was squaring up a bar, and ended up with all faces parallel to less that 0.0005" (0.01mm).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram06.jpg)


Then using a countersink tool, a very small chamfer was put down each edge. This is to try to eliminate errors after the tool has been used for a time, no sharp edges to get 'dinged' and stop the precision faces sitting down correctly.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram07.jpg)


This shows my setting tool from the bottom. It shows the layout of the slot and if you look very carefully, where the bolt sits. I will be showing how to do all this and dimensions a little later.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram08.jpg)


So now onto a bit of lathework.

The bar had a spigot machined on one end about 5/8" long (non critical but somewhere close), and 3/8" (10mm) diameter minus 0.001" (0.025mm). You could just about get away with being 0.002" (0.05mm) under size. This is to allow the use of high strength Loctite during assembly. The shoulder was also cleaned up as this will be a datum face.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram09.jpg)


The end of the spigot had a small chamfer filed on the end, and a hole drilled and threaded into the end of it. Mine was 6mm, for imperial, maybe 1/4"

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram10.jpg)


So the bar was then turned around and the outside diameter reduced so that it was slightly smaller than the dimension between the chamfers on the ali bar. There will be slight length and diameter changes to this bar on the very final operation of making the tool.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram11.jpg)


The two main bits machined up and ready for the next stages.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram12.jpg)


Showing how they will be assembled, once the right holes are in place.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram13.jpg)

So there we have getting the bits prepared.

Next time it will be drilling holes and assembling it all.


John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 28, 2009, 07:36:20 PM
Awesome. I have been waiting for this one. Thanks John!

Eric
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Bernd on February 28, 2009, 10:14:06 PM
Nice work John.

I see I'm going to have to make one up for the Bridgy.

Bernd
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: sbwhart on March 01, 2009, 12:01:07 AM
Supper John, :clap:  Like Eric I've been waiting for this.

Cheers

Stew
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Mustang on March 01, 2009, 12:11:44 AM
Excellent John, :beer:

I just purchase two DIs for this project so your long awaited post hits the nail right on the head. :hammer: Now I will know how to proceed.

Bravo Zulu

Andy
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 01, 2009, 03:30:50 AM
John,

My first tramming was done using a blunt tooled 16" flycutter & feeler gauges.

Then in later years, a finger clock in a bent piece of tube.......

Now, soon to be a born again miller....
I`ve got the clock..... Searching for a suitable piece of tube.  ::)


I am really intrigued by this double headed delight.  :thumbup:

David.

Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 01, 2009, 07:25:08 AM
<Watches closely taking notes>

Taking a deep breath and going to look at what Im doing and start to try to tighten my tolerences up... so I go from making it work.. to doing it correctly.

Scott
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on March 01, 2009, 07:31:19 AM
Nice project, I realise what it is now  :clap:

I guess accurate machining is required here, maybe later for me then  :lol:

Interesting use of a left handed tool John, any partic reason, or just because you can
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 01, 2009, 07:56:31 AM
Thanks lads, I will see what I can get done this evening.

It looks so easy to make, in fact it is, but because it ends up as a precision tool, the quality has to be kept high.

You could actually do a real roughie on it, and as long as the holes are vertical to the bottom face and that bottom face is perfectly flat, it could be rescued by the final operation (to be shown later). But then it would just be a roughie tool with no real pride involved, and as such would not be treated so kindly during it's life.

Darren,

How many times have you used your left hand tool? I bet hardly ever.

By mounting it in the way I have, I find it is perfect for both normal right hand cutting, facing, and if needed, it can be swung around, reclamped,  and used for it's correct job. So really, in conjuction with my profile tool, I find I can carry out about 90% of jobs on the lathe with it, and gives me a better view of the parts being machined, not having the toolpost holder blocking the view. Plus pure laziness on my part, it saves me having to swap tools about.

John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 01, 2009, 05:12:58 PM
Another hour or so's work coming up.

As I am making this for an internet friend, and the dimensions given to me were in metric, at sometime during this post I have to use all metric measurements to get to where I want to be. I will be using 125mm between the dial gauge tips, plus 15mm at either end for the gauge clamp system. If you are working in Imperial, just use your own figure for the central measurement, plus a converted 15mm at either end. The end bits aren't too critical, but don't make them any smaller.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram14.jpg)


So after covering the side that was to slide on the bandsaw table, just to protect the surface finish, I hacked off the spare at the end.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram15.jpg)


After setting the bar onto parallels, both ends were cleaned up without removing too much metal.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram16.jpg)


The final length isn't critical, as long as it isn't under your length minimum limit. All I needed was a final length, so that I could find exact centre of the bar.
Unfortunately, my 6" digivern just wasn't quite long enough, so I had to revert to old mechanical tooling. This is most probably more accurate than the digivern anyway.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram17.jpg)


So now I had the OAL and width, I can easily find exact centre both ways.
The bar was tapped down gently onto a pair of thin paras.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram18.jpg)


The reason for the thin paras is that I need to drill right thru the bar, so I checked with the largest sized drill I will be using, just to make sure I won't be trying to drill steel as well as aluminium.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram19.jpg)


So I have a piece of ali all centred up in the vice, ready to start drilling. Turn on the camera, and squeak, crunch. The lens locked up solid, and wouldn't turn itself onto picture taking mode. So after the usual battery change, hitting it all ways from saturday, it still refuses to go.

So sorry gents, unless you want to carry on without piccies, all my posts are now piccy suspended until I can get my hands on a decent digicam.

I will have a bit of a twiddle tomorrow to see if Darrens vinegar trick will work, but I doubt it.

After many thousands of pics over the last six years, it is time to say goodbye.

R.I.P. Fuji S5000, you have done me well. You are destined to be recycled into other things.


Man in black Bogs.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Divided he ad on March 01, 2009, 07:14:23 PM
I've got a canon ixus 400 sitting on the shelf John.... My old one.

Still in good order.... Yours if you want it.... Not quite the fuji, but takes good macro shots and short videos with sound (60second If I remember correctly)

Could be delivered Thurs' or Friday If you want it?


You know the deal  :thumbup:


Can't have the threads drying up just as your getting going can we?!




Ralph.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: John Stevenson on March 01, 2009, 08:20:17 PM
John,
Is a Fuji S3500 any good to you?
Got one here 2 months old and I can't get on with it.

JS
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 01, 2009, 11:06:04 PM
Isn't it nice to have such generous friends.

Many thanks for the great offer gentlemen, but things are already being sorted.

I had already been offered a later version of my camera a couple of months ago, just like you gents F.O.C.

An email late last night sorted it out for me.

Plus after a bit of 'experimentation' early this morning, I managed to get the lens freed off, and it is now taking piccies again, just with a bit more noise than before. So hopefully, that will get me to the end of this project today.

I wish these things had grease nipples and oil holes.

Thanks again lads.

John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: sbwhart on March 02, 2009, 03:18:42 AM
Sounds like swarf in the works of your camera John  :hammer:

Stew

Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 02, 2009, 05:38:59 AM
Might be Stew, must remember to move it off the mill table while I'm cutting. :lol:

But to be honest, I think it has just worn out. But the bits are a little smal for even me to make.

John

Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 02, 2009, 08:41:58 PM
So after last nights camera fiasco, here I am again, burning the midnight oil. I had to work later tonight to try to catch up because I didn't get it done yesterday.

Went into the shop, turned on the mill, and everything was as I had left it, everything centred. So a quickie start.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram20.jpg)


First job, drill a hole right thru the bar. This is for the spindle holding bolt and I used a clearance hole for 6mm. This is a bit confusing here, dual measurements, but I told you I had to do some bits in metric.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram21.jpg)


I then followed it down with a 3/8" end mill. After a time using your machines, you get to know if it will cut accurately or not. I know that this will be an accurate cut. Maybe you could leave the spindle until you have cut your hole, and then trim it down to fit the hole minus 1 thou.
Not really the ideal, using a drill chuck to hold the cutter, but I know my chucks, and this one definitely cuts with no runout. My larger one would cut 0.002" oversize. Get to know your tooling, and you won't go far wrong.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram22.jpg)


This went to a depth of about 3/4". If you remember, the spigot was only 5/8" long. I don't want it to bottom in the hole, but to be pulled down tightly onto the formed shoulder where the shaft meets the spigot.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram23.jpg)


Next job, measure the diameter of the dial gauge holding shank. Near as dammit 8mm. You will have to measure yours for the size of drill you require.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram24.jpg)


Before drilling the gauge mounting holes, I did a quick check for fit of the spindle. By eyeball, it looks very close or even spot on, but as usual I am not trusting my eyes. Only when it is on the lathe will it show if it is out or not.

So I then got back to drilling the holes in the required places. After centre drilling, I put a 6mm down thru the bar, followed by a 7mm, then the final 8mm. If you carry out this method, of coming up to size on a hole, the hole usually ends up spot on size. The reason being, only the first hole drilled relies on cutting the middle part of the hole out, so if the drill is ground slightly out, you can end up with holes of all shapes and sizes. The following sizes of drills are cutting a lot less material than if going straight in, and also no tip to throw it off line. My hole sizes ended up spot on, a nice snug fit.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram25.jpg)


So that was the top face finished with. The bar was turned the other way up, recentred and an end mill used to put a recess in for the spindle holding bolt head to fit into. If you remember, this bar is 1.5" deep, so I went to a depth of 1/2". This left an uncut middle to the hole that is 1/4" thick, top to bottom, plenty strong enough to take the strain of a real tight bolt.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram26.jpg)


So while it was this way up, I took the opportunity to cut a 3/16" deep recess into the bottom face. This is to allow the bar to sit better on the table when measuring without having to worry about dirt and damage under the whole length of the bar. The final faces of the datums ended up at around 1" long by 5/8" wide, with the gauge tips protruding in the middle of the face.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram27.jpg)


Now back on the bench, after all holes were given a nice clean chamfer and all edges deburred with a scraping tool. Plastic tape was then put over the datum faces, to protect them during the next machining operations.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram28.jpg)


The next job was a straight forwards slitting cut for making the gauge clamps, one at either end.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram29.jpg)


So what is the correct place for the clamping bolts?
Measure up your gauge like this, mine were 3/4" long, measured to where the lead in taper starts. Half that figure = 3/8"

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram30.jpg)


Measure from the edge of the hole to the end of the bar, half of 1/2" = 1/4"

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram31.jpg)


3/8" down, 1/4" in. I didn't blue up and mark out as I don't want scibe lines over the finished product.
The bar was remounted into the vice (with new tape on datum faces), and the hole positions found using my edge finder.
I used 5mm cap screws instead of the shown 6mm. The 6mm looked way too large.
So a tapping size drill was put right thru, followed by a clearance drill, but only until it reached the saw cut. The recess for the bolt head was then put in.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram32.jpg)


After tapping the rear side, and after another deburr, the block was finally finished.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram33.jpg)


Now the two main parts can be assembled together. Using hi strength Loctite (clone) on the spigot and holding bolt, everything was given a good tighten up. This is now ready for when I can get back onto the job tommorrow, and true it all up.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram34.jpg)


Another late night.

Bogs
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 03, 2009, 02:18:41 AM
Another crackin` episode John!  :clap:

Keep `em coming......  :thumbup:

David.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: sbwhart on March 03, 2009, 02:53:17 AM
Superb rite up John

 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

Stew
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on March 03, 2009, 05:59:55 AM
As usual a smashing write up John,

It's a wonder you never took up teaching, you have the knack.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 03, 2009, 06:36:52 PM
I have a rather duff right arm, and this morning, they drained all the blood out of my left one. Does this mean I am classed as harmless? :lol:

Jammie doughnuts, here I come. :clap:


The loctite has set, so now I can get it onto the lathe to true it up.
First off, I checked the runout of my faceplate. 0.001", normally that would be acceptable, but I want it better for the precision I am about to try to achieve.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram35.jpg)


So I put on a 2 thou cut, and sent the tool on a 40 minute journey. :med:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram36.jpg)


While the faceplate was being skimmed, I made a quickie set of clamps to hold the tramming tool to the plate.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram37.jpg)


So the plate was finished, and when checked, no runout.
This pic also shows a good example of the casting effects. Notice the shiny bits, that is because the casting was thicker in those areas, so that area cooled down a lot slower, and so ended up with a much finer chrystaline structure. You learn something new every day on Maddmodders. :mmr:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram38.jpg)


Using a technique very similar to one Bernd showed the other day, the trammer was gently pushed against the faceplate, with a piece of paper under the datum faces, to prevent damage. :thumbup:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram39.jpg)


While it was in position, I fitted the quickie clamps to hold it against the faceplate, again with pieces of paper to prevent damage.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram40.jpg)


The DTI was now swung into use. I first trammed across the top face, to see if the paper was causing any problems. It was spot on. So I then concentrated on the spindle. By gently tapping with a lump of nylon bar, I gradually moved the trammer to a zero runout position and then locked everything up tight.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram41.jpg)


So now was the time to see if my hard work was in vain. You guessed it, 0.0035" runout.  :scratch:
So it does go to show, if you think you are making it accurately, it just might not be so. I expected this and it was the reason I kept saying that it needed to be mounted on the lathe for final tuning. It only had to be a minute amount out of vertical, and by the time it reached the end of the spindle, that error would be multiplied many times over.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram42.jpg)


The fix was dead easy, just gentle skimming up, and while I was at it, I reduced the spindle diameter to a very useable 12mm. Now it was truly spot on, and I was a happy bunny. :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
WE NEED BUNNIES INSTEAD OF NANA's

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram43.jpg)


So what do you do with it now?

Well the first thing was to fit the gauges, and put the datum faces down onto a perfectly flat surface. You could just move the 0 dial to line up with each finger and that would be it. But I go a little further and and by moving the gauges up and down in their locating holes, I try to get the dials showing zero at the top. It just looks neater. But also make sure the tiny dial measures the same as well.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram44.jpg)


So how do you use it?

Just put it into your chuck (a collet chuck would most probably be a little more accurate, but I know this one is OK).

Bring the tips down until they are resting on the table and are moving the dials.

Then just adjust the mill head until the dials show the same figure, it need not be 0, it can be anything, 8 or 3, as long as they are the same (including the little dials).

Swing it thru 90 degrees and you can tram the Y axis as well using the same procedure. If you are unlucky, 5 minutes total time.

Once the needles are at the same setting, you have now trammed the head on your mill.

As you can see, and as I said, my head is perfectly in tram. I should know, I used my own little tramming tool to do it.

A lot easier than trying to use a clock on the end of a bar, and then attempting to swing it thru 180 degrees to take the next measurement ----- and so on until you eventually get it right.


(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram45.jpg)


Little and large trammers.

The little one can now go to it's new owner.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/tram46.jpg)



So this little tool looks a pig to make, but in fact it is very easy, as long as you can keep things under control with fairly tight tolerances. As I said, the final lathe work will true it up a treat.
 
Total cost -- However much a pair of gauges are and a few bits of raw materials.

Your gain -- tramming now becomes a joy, rather than a PITA.

I hope you have enjoyed the post, and it gives you the inspiration to make one for yourself. You would never regret it.


Disappearing backlog Bogs.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Bernd on March 03, 2009, 09:16:53 PM
Very nice John.  :thumbup:

Some time in the future I'll have to make one for the Bridgeport mill. I've got the head tramed in pretty good on it now using, like you said, a long bar and sung it back and forth to get the head "0". I might never move it but then again you never know.

BTW, that tool sure would look nice in a wooden box.  :poke:

But knowing how you don't like wood work I guess not.  :lol:

Bernd
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: HS93 on March 04, 2009, 12:04:32 AM
That looks magic  :ddb:   :ddb: and I have Just the Padded box for it, and a little mill to use it on.
The only problem is that I will now have to up my game a lot so it will be worth all the effort you have put in to it. :bow:

thanks

peter

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Divided he ad on March 04, 2009, 01:36:36 AM
Job done  :thumbup: 

Nice bit of tooling there John  :)




Quote
WE NEED BUNNIES INSTEAD OF NANA's
Now if that were the case then Peter's post would be the cast of "Water ship down"!!!!  :lol:




Ralph.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 04, 2009, 02:01:18 AM
Thank you John.  :thumbup:

That`s a crackin` job, well explained......  :clap:

David.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 04, 2009, 03:40:48 AM
Thanks lads for the comments, glad to have entertained you for a while. As usual, I have enjoyed doing it as well.

Peter & David,

When I can get the boss to take me out to the post office, your little packages will be on their way, but not today, I have a special cruising visitor calling this afternoon. More goodies from the US.

My next backlog project will be making some model engine flywheels for a project in the future, for myself and a good mate of mine, who will need one very soon.

Showing how I do these has been done before on other sites, but if anyone is interested, I will catalogue it and post as usual. If not, I will just get on with it.

Just a quick note on the tramming tool.

Although I go on about extolling it's virtues, I will just tell you what I think about it.

I have been doing the process of tramming for more years than I want to remember, using all of the old school methods. Struggling to get perfection, and no matter what anyone tells you, unless you are very experience in doing it the 'old way', it can become a chore that you detest doing.
Not so much of an issue on the larger and more rigid machines, but just by doing some heavy cutting can easily knock your head out of tram. It is not an issue normally when cutting in the X axis, you just get a little back cut, and that can be an advantage at times. But when you do a cut in the Y axis with the head out of wack in the X, you will never get a truly square cut, it will be tilted one way or the other.

This little tool, in all honesty, makes the job of tramming a joy to do, taking out all the inherent errors normally associated with the job, and it speeds up the process to usually a couple of minutes, rather than the normal half hour or so.

John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 04, 2009, 04:06:35 AM
Thanks lads for the comments, glad to have entertained you for a while. As usual, I have enjoyed doing it as well.

My next backlog project will be making some model engine flywheels for a project in the future, for myself and a good mate of mine, who will need one very soon.

Showing how I do these has been done before on other sites, but if anyone is interested, I will catalogue it and post as usual. If not, I will just get on with it.
John

I`m interested!  :wave:


Hope you enjoy your afternoon.....  :thumbup:

David.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on March 04, 2009, 04:49:50 AM
Nice looking tool there John, I will have to put some thought into making one at some time.

Next project, please don't hide it away  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: ja2on on March 04, 2009, 02:48:56 PM
WE NEED BUNNIES INSTEAD OF NANA's

Your wish is my command (http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c176/j450n_/bunny.gif) (http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c176/j450n_/bunny.gif)

Nice work I really enjoy the write up's on this site  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 04, 2009, 03:27:56 PM
David & Darren,

OK you have talked me into it.
Mind you, you only have to open the fridge door to turn the light on, and I start performing.


Jason,

Quote
Your wish is my command


Great bunnies, but how do I use them, and also a bit brighter colour.

Bogs
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 05, 2009, 02:19:14 AM
Great bunnies, but how do I use them, and also a bit brighter colour.
Bogs

We need happy bunnies!  :wave:

David.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: shoey51 on March 23, 2009, 03:44:16 PM
what a great read and very informative  :D
thanks John I didnt understand it all but im a newbie with only hours of experience
thank you for your posts this site is going to be a great source of learning for me

cheers Graham
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 23, 2009, 06:16:05 PM
Graham,

That is what this site is all about, if you need to know anything or don't understand what you are reading, just ask.

Or the other way is just let yourself in gently, understand what you are able to, and come back to the older posts when you have a little more experience.

When your are new to this sort of thing, is is very easy to get overloaded with information, because you want to learn everything straight away. Just take it steady and things will start to make a lot more sense.
There is no one pushing you along with a stick  :poke: (well not at this time).

John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 24, 2009, 07:49:43 AM
John,

What a great write up! I have to finish a few more bike bits first, but this is going on my 'must do soon' list.

I am on the look out for some bunnies for you!

Eric
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: DeereGuy on March 24, 2009, 12:34:00 PM
Another fine example of an excellent write up for a how to from you.  It's what we have grown to expect from you John.:) (Your not only a mentor in machining but in teaching also)

The final step on the lathe for truing up the set up was a light bulb for me.  Thanks again.

Bob
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on March 26, 2009, 04:36:28 AM
Bob,

Light bulbs are getting difficult to find, it is all low energy light sources nowadays.

I hope they work just as well.


Bogs
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 11, 2009, 02:43:25 PM
 I was getting on with my pillow blocks for my little engine build and suddenly I realised I had a major problem. When milling these little blocks something clearly was out of square. Very much out of square.... :(
Then I remembered this thread. Now then John, if you hadn't previously posted on this Tramming tool I would be in at the deep end pulling my hair out... :bang:
Thankfully yet again you have showed us the way... :thumbup:

I didn't make the same tool, but something similar that would allow me to get the job done in checking and squaring up my milling machine.

This is what I did, Started with a bit of aluminium bar and cleaned it up.

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1573.jpg)

Drilled some 8mm holes, one for the mill head, one for the dial gauge and one again for the dial gauge to span my 4" vice. This should prove handy for re-setting the vice after I have used it at an angle.

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1576.jpg)

Drilled and tapped 5mm on the other egde

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1579.jpg)

Turning an 8mm spigot on a piece of 10mm Stainless Steel rod

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1581.jpg)

Sum of parts, I was going to turn some thumbscrews until I realised I don't have a 5mm die, I'll order one and do this later.

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1582.jpg)

Mounted on the milling machine, when checking my vice the spindle shaft will go right up the collet holder and the gauge can be mounted on top of the ally bar.
Note the reading is zero'd

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1588.jpg)

Turn 90deg and the gauge didn't budge

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1592.jpg)

However, as I suspected the front to back was out. By a whopping 8 thou. That's 8 thou over 160mm or 6.4".
Thinking that this was a bit much I put a piece of 1mm/0.0045" brass shimstock in here (A nice gift from my first visits to Johns place)
I left it sticking out a touch so I could retrieve it if need be.

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1594.jpg)

All tightened up properly and re-measured. Left to right as before, no discernible difference. Front to back now down to 1 thou. Prob nearer 3/4 of a thou.

So a 1mm piece of shimstock = 7 thou change. That's 0.1249mm per thou.
To get rid of the last thou I need something approx 0.125mm thick. A coke can is 0.5mm, a rizla paper 0.3mm.


My question is this, is 1thou good enough cos I can't see how I'm going to get rid of it?

I'd appreciate a quickish reply as I'd like to carry on an re-assemble my vice so I can get back to what I started earlier, the pillow blocks  :thumbup:


Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: sbwhart on April 11, 2009, 03:04:11 PM
Darren stick the paper in you'll compress it when you tighten it down, a little bit more grunt may do it.

Stew
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 11, 2009, 03:18:44 PM
Thanks Stew, I'll go and try that now and report back  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 11, 2009, 03:33:37 PM
Wow Stew, you're the man  :thumbup:

One rizla, bit of tweaking the bolts and it's now spot on, I mean truly spot on in all positions  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Bernd on April 11, 2009, 03:45:16 PM
Way to go Darren.  :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:

Bernd
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: sbwhart on April 11, 2009, 04:02:53 PM
Pleased it worked out.

Well done that man  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

 :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:


Stew
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: cedge on April 11, 2009, 06:07:16 PM
Darren
You'll wonder how you ever cut anything before you got everything zeroed in. Nice job!!

Steve
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on April 11, 2009, 06:13:17 PM
Darren,

Sorry I couldn't help earlier, but Stew sorted you out anyway.

I hope you realise that this topic is about getting rid of the antiquated system you have just made.

For your pennance, you have now got to use your new found accuracy to make one of my tramming tools.

It's nice being square, ain't it?

Well done.


Bogs
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 11, 2009, 07:20:51 PM

I hope you realise that this topic is about getting rid of the antiquated system you have just made.


Bogs

Have faith, I will get there. One small step at a time. I just needed something that would do the job for now AND one that could double up to sort my vice out as well.

OK, now that the mill is much better set up it's time to sort out the vice.

Mine came with these locating tags. Not much use as they are as you can see. When the mounting bolts are located they pull the vice too far forward to use them.

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1596.jpg)

This turned out to be a simple fix

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1598.jpg)

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1599.jpg)

That done it was now time to true up the vice  jaws to the bed. This gauge reads to 10ths of a thou, I ended up chasing two tenths and then realised that if I simply placed my hand on the vice the gauge would move by two tenths. Wow, two tenths aint much is it ..!!
So I left it at that.

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1602.jpg)

Back to the other tool that I made earlier tonight to set the jaws horizontal to the quill. Now you can see why I made two mounts for the dial gauge. With my vice being handy to set to any angle, it's just as nice to be able to put it back again quickly and accurately.

The vice overall is now easy to set perfectly true, just five min or so and it was all done.

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Tools%20Made/Trepanning%20Tool/IMG_1606.jpg)
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on April 11, 2009, 07:55:49 PM
Darren,

If I could make a suggestion to get a better result for you.

On you first measurement, using the DTI. Instead of clocking along the pitted and worn inside vice jaws, put a parallel in there, and clock against that. You will then get a more accurate 'mean' reading. It would also help if you used your diamond plate to gently knock off any high spots on the jaw faces.

For the second one. The top of the jaws might not be parallel to where your job is sitting down onto. Pop a parallel down onto the inside of the jaw base, and clock off the top of the parallel.

I now see you are starting to come along in leaps and bounds, striving for accuracy. Whereas before it was wack it in, and that will do, now you are talking in tenths of a thou.

Keep it up.

John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 11, 2009, 08:13:56 PM
Thanks for the suggestions John, really appreciate them.

I've had these two gauges for over twenty years, now I'm finally using them..... :ddb:

I have run the diamond over the jaws, very carefully mind you. I've yet to buy some parallels, they are deff on the list as I find I'm struggling a bit without them.
I've just made a £100 order with ARC EURO For those that have not heard of them. http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/default.aspx Great company, fast delivery and prices that others fail to match.

The parallels will have to wait till next mth.

I notice on the quill of the mill that the scales bear no resemblance to what is actually going on. Makes it very difficult to take really fine cuts. Every time you lower the quill the scales make no sense at all in relation to the last setting. So I have ordered a 4" vertical DRO. That should solve this problem.

I chose an engine build to show me the way to accuracy  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on April 11, 2009, 09:46:57 PM
Darren,

I use Arc Euro and RDG all the time for my run of the mill bits.

Try this on your mill, I can almost guarantee this is what is causing the misreading.

With the mill turned off of course, wind down the quill about half way without putting the lock on, and try pushing the quill up and down. Usually you can get about 100 thou up and down movement. If what I said is correct, your problem is quill float, there is not enough spring pressure to support the quill, and it is bouncing up and down when you put your cut on.

There is a fairly easy fix, and one of your sash weights comes into the equation.

For your first set of parallels, go for 1/8" thick ones, They are the most versatile to begin with.


John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: sbwhart on April 12, 2009, 12:59:47 AM


With the mill turned off of course, wind down the quill about half way without putting the lock on, and try pushing the quill up and down. Usually you can get about 100 thou up and down movement. If what I said is correct, your problem is quill float, there is not enough spring pressure to support the quill, and it is bouncing up and down when you put your cut on.

There is a fairly easy fix, and one of your sash weights comes into the equation.


I had that problem with my 3 in 1 mill head, never did get it fixed, the DRO helped that and locking the quill.

Stew
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 12, 2009, 07:10:50 AM
John you are quite right, unlocked the vertical play is about a mm, (I guess it's the backlash in the gearing housing) sometimes when adjusting it sticks up. Then when next released for adjustment it drops with a clunk, but sometimes you don't notice this and that's where the problem begins.  :bang:

At the moment I'm adjusting while the motor is running, certainly not ideal but the vibrations make it drop every time.

Now that I have worked out what is going on it's now workable if not ideal.

If you have a fix I sure would like to hear about it  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on April 12, 2009, 12:40:58 PM
Hi Darren,

If you look at the C-o-C it shows two methods, but a third one could be a tension spring between the quill casting and the position of the the first pulley.

What you are trying to achieve is an upwards pull on the casting around the quill where the bottom of the quill depth stop fixes.

There is no internal fix for this problem, I looked at every and which way.

I succeeded by method 1.

I put as long a piece of threaded rod I could in place of the quill downstop. Then by putting a fairly strong compression spring onto the rod and made a knurled wheel so that I could adjust the tension on the spring to give enough upwards force to support the quill. It was a bit of a PITA sometimes as it restricted your downwards movement of the quill by all the coils compressing up and effectively making a solid tube which stopped any further downwards movement. I lived with this fix for many years.

The pulley system would be a much better fix as you would get unrestricted movement over the whole length of the quill, but still maintain that continual upwards pressure. In fact, now looking at it, if you could put a long tension spring with the one end mounted at pulley position 2 (at the back of the machine) and a string over the first pulley down to the quill.

Once you understand what is required, I am sure you will come up with some solution Darren. My ramblings are just a couple of possible solutions.

Hope it helps

John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 12, 2009, 02:41:29 PM
I see, so you held the quill up and not down, I would have started on the wrong foot  :thumbup:

Been out in this incredible sun all day, started on may garage roof. Boy it was hot today, almost too hot to work outside  :dremel:

I'll have a look at the mill in a bit, btw my depth stop is a threaded bar, all I need now is a spring...... :ddb:

Thanks for the tips  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: bogstandard on April 12, 2009, 04:04:50 PM
You've got it Darren, the quill has to be pulled up.

I tried to use the depth stop, but it just wasn't long enough before the spring got a mechanical lock, and also the diameter was wrong for the spring I eventually managed to find.

I honestly think, the bit I mentioned last time with the single pulley and a long tension spring would be the ideal permanent solution. Easily adjustable for tension, and no mechanical lock ups.

John
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 12, 2009, 07:30:38 PM
Thanks John, I will look into this and give it some more thought.... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Bourne Bill on April 24, 2009, 02:47:47 PM
Take a look in this site. It tells how to take the backlash out of the quill.

Micro-Machine Shop
microcosm - A small, representative system having analogies to a larger system in constitution, configuration, or development.
corollary - You can't have too many tools. 

This site presents over 110 pages containing in excess of 1140 annotated pictures, 40 animations, 
plus 125 reference documents on metal machining tools, tooling, modifications, methods, & projects.

Rong Fu RF-25 Mill/Drill
    Mill/Drill Specifications & Views
    RF-25 Mill DRO X Y Z Axes & Tachometer   
    R-8 Spindle Accessories
    Collets, 5C Fixtures & Angled Fixtures
    Workholding, End Mills & Rotary Tables
    Coolant Misting System

Taig Micro Mill
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    Taig DRO X Y Z Axes & Tachometer
    Motor & ER-16 Spindle
    Screwless Vises
    Tooling Plate
    Manual Rotary Table
    Tramming the Taig Mill & Vise

Jet BD-920N 9x20 Lathe
    9x20 Lathe DRO X Z1 Axes & Tachometer   
    Compound Bracket & Angle Plate Jig
    Quick Change Tool Post & Tool Bits
    Cross slide, Compound, Carriage & Feed Gears
    Tool Post Grinder
    Collet & Jawed Spindle Chucks
    Centers, Arbors & Tailstock Drill Chucks
    Locking & Tramming the Tailstock
    Boring Bars
    Ball Turners & Knurlers
    Single-point Threading
    Spindle Motor Emergency Stop   

Taig Micro Lathe
    Taig Micro Lathe DROs
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    Micro Lathe & Mill Accessories
    Spindle Motor & its Mount
    Rocker & Quick Change Tool Posts
    Boring Bar Holders
    Ratcheting Locking Levers
    Tramming the Taig Tailstock
   
Metal-working Tools
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    Vises

    Hit Miss Gas & Double-Acting Steam Engines
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DISCLAIMER
Opinions expressed are those of the author or the quoted source. The author is not an employee of or agent for any of the vendors referenced in the text and does not sell or represent any of the products discussed. The author is not a professional machinist or engineer.  No information provided herein should be construed to represent professional advice or best practice.  All information is provided to help hobbyists and other non-professionals gain a better understanding of the tools and techniques described. Care has been exercised to provide accurate information. However, the author cannot be held responsible for information which is incorrect or out of date. Power tools and shop practices can be dangerous. Read, understand & follow all directions & precautions provided by the equipment manufacturer. Always take all proper safety precautions such as wearing protective eyewear and appropriate clothing. Contact the manufacturer if you have any questions.

All practices described herein are to be used at the discretion and risk of the reader.

Last updated on Thursday, April 23, 2009 06:40:34 AM          Let the chips fly!           
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Darren on April 24, 2009, 03:01:08 PM
Thanks for that, I'd read that site before but wasn't looking for that info at the time.....

Well spotted  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Brass_Machine on April 24, 2009, 03:23:54 PM
Take a look in this site. It tells how to take the backlash out of the quill.

Micro-Machine Shop
microcosm - A small, representative system having analogies to a larger system in constitution, configuration, or development.
corollary - You can't have too many tools.  
  



Thanks Bill... got some reading ahead of me.

Eric
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Bogstandard on December 02, 2010, 06:06:59 PM
Just a little update.

Anyone ever seen one of these before




Bogs
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: andyf on December 02, 2010, 07:48:35 PM
Yup - distinct sense of deja vu. I'm sure that if you anodised yours, you would choose a more tasteful hue.

Andy

Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: No1_sonuk on January 07, 2011, 10:16:19 AM
Just a little update.

Anyone ever seen one of these before
Yup, I have one in my cupboard.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: irishwoodsman on November 14, 2011, 10:20:23 AM
Nice jig, but i have a question, i want to use this to cut morse tapers in a lathe. do i have to space the indicators the same distance as the length of the taper. i will be useing this to set the degree of my compound so i can machine the taper  ty for any info
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: fatal-exception on November 17, 2011, 03:42:06 PM
Great project Bogs! I've seen these around and have though about how handy they would be each time I have to tram the mills.

The bit about turning down the shank after it's installed in the bar is the chunk of the puzzle that makes it all good.  :D I wonder if this step could be avoided if the hole was bored on the lathe?

It seems that as your project list goes down, mine goes up!  :hammer:

Thanks for the writeup.

Paul
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: andyf on November 18, 2011, 01:03:34 PM
Nice jig, but i have a question, i want to use this to cut morse tapers in a lathe. do i have to space the indicators the same distance as the length of the taper. i will be useing this to set the degree of my compound so i can machine the taper  ty for any info

A more convenient way to angle the compound might be to look up the taper per inch here http://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/Tapers.php (http://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/Tapers.php), and angle the topslide so that a dial indicator bearing on the side of it exhibits the appropriate variation when the carriage is moved along by 1". Your topslide will probably be long enough to double, treble or quadruple the figures and measure over 2, 3 or 4" for greater accuracy.

Check by rough measurement of a similar taper whether the per inch figure is measured over the diameter or the radius. If the former, halve it or you will end up with a taper twice as steep as you require, as I once found out through carelessness  :bang:

Unless you can bring a morse socket up to work held in the chuck for a test fit with engineer's blue, it would be better to turn it between centres. Then, if some tiny adjustment is needed, you won't be troubled with chucking errors when returning it to the lathe.

Andy.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: tel on November 21, 2011, 04:41:55 PM
Like this

(http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/15196/2102378110105506259S500x500Q85.jpg) (http://news.webshots.com/photo/2102378110105506259PbETmS)
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: andyf on November 21, 2011, 04:55:26 PM
Exactly, Tel, except that when working on a virgin length of barstock, you can centre drill both ends and use a regular centre direct in the tailstock, rather than the female one in a drill chuck you have had to use with your ready-made demo item.


Andy

PS I suppose this is all very  :offtopic: for Bog's tram tool thread, so I'd better say no more...

PPS ... Except that a dog will be needed to drive the item.


Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: fatal-exception on December 01, 2011, 03:18:04 PM
For those of you Canucks on here, I found some good quality, cheap dial indicators from Accusize Tools out of Ontario. $12 each + shipping. http://www.accusizetools.ca/products_details.asp?big=1&small=20&proid=15 (http://www.accusizetools.ca/products_details.asp?big=1&small=20&proid=15)

I whipped up a variation of Bogs design in Solidworks and have attached it to this post. I'll post my results when it's done!

Happy chip making!  :)

Paul
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: fatal-exception on December 06, 2011, 12:37:57 PM
 :update:
Here's mine. I deviated from the plan slightly as far as the shape goes. I adjusted a fly cutter to make the grooves in the body in a single pass. After I did the front and back, I was having so much fun I flipped the part and did the top and bottom too. I really don't like the yellow anodizing. I 'perpendicularized' the spindle post the same way Bogs did, on the faceplate of the lathe, and good thing.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XzO4WS0RbhY/Tt5MzUCldqI/AAAAAAAACr4/Hm5gsGmQLQg/s640/Photo%2525202011-12-05%2525208%25252001%25252025%252520PM.jpg)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K3VMz9BzRTA/Tt5QRw2rz6I/AAAAAAAACsE/-xOtRF9JWV0/s640/Photo%2525202011-12-05%2525208%25252000%25252018%252520PM.jpg)
The milling head of the big mill is out a bit in both directions, which can now be accurately adjusted.

If course, it can be used to tram the tailstock of the lathe too. Mine's way out in both directions:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iQtns5Sym_c/Tt5M5A40VBI/AAAAAAAACr4/65JnSorA7wg/s640/Photo%2525202011-12-05%2525208%25252005%25252032%252520PM.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qMESTdGrdI0/Tt5M_Nw34bI/AAAAAAAACr4/CvMTUhbC-Lo/s640/Photo%2525202011-12-05%2525208%25252006%25252054%252520PM.jpg)

I haven't checked my cnc router yet, but I know that it's out a bit, and it can be used to accurately set the drill press table too.

All I need to do is make a nice fitting, foam filled box for it.... :headbang:

Paul
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: DaveH on December 06, 2011, 02:20:26 PM
Paul,

Looks very nice,  :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I quite like the yellow anodizing. :clap: :clap: :clap:

A very nice and usefull bit of kit.
 :beer:
DaveH
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: buffalow bill on December 06, 2011, 02:41:04 PM
Paul,
A question from an electrician with no previous machining experience
About checking the lathe tail/head stock, how do you know which is out tail or head?
  :Doh:

Bill.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: andyf on December 06, 2011, 02:44:52 PM
Nice job, Paul :thumbup: . I quite like the yellow, too.

You need one of John Hill's cushiony boxes to keep it safe:
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4770.0

Andy

Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Spurry on December 06, 2011, 06:31:30 PM
Just wondering how you reference those clocks to the bottom face of the gadget. They just seem to stick out (scientific expression  :bugeye: ) a long way.

Pete
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: grayone on December 06, 2011, 09:46:48 PM
Just wondering how you reference those clocks to the bottom face of the gadget. They just seem to stick out (scientific expression  :bugeye: ) a long way.

Pete

I wondered about that as well as I am planning on making one.  Dial gauges enroute from Hongkong so project 996 for when I retire :D My idea to calibrate it would be to pack up using parallels under the body with it sitting on a surgace plate.  Then simply adjust the dial gauges until they read the same and tighten the screws holding them in the tool.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: 75Plus on December 06, 2011, 10:18:39 PM
The clocks are mounted so that the plungers can collapse inside the base. The unit is held firmly on a flat surface and the clocks zeroed. This is the reason it was so important to do the final machining on the stem while the base was clamped securely to a previously trued face plate. See reply #19 on page 1 of this thread for an explanation.

Joe
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Stilldrillin on December 07, 2011, 02:14:00 AM
While admiring this design of tramming tooling for a long time now.......  :clap: :thumbup:

I can't get away from the concern that it must stay square to itself.
Also, it must be mounted perfectly square to the m/c spindle.

How do you know it is still in spec, after some use?  :scratch:

The last pic. above, assumes the drill chuck is perfectly true to it's arbor, and tailstock centre line....... 

David D
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: spuddevans on December 07, 2011, 02:19:18 AM
How do you know it is still in spec, after some use?  :scratch:

I suppose you take a reading, note down the results, and then rotate the spindle 180 degrees and see if the readings for each end still match the 1st set of readings :scratch:


Tim
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: sbwhart on December 07, 2011, 03:33:27 AM
How do you know it is still in spec, after some use?  :scratch:

I suppose you take a reading, note down the results, and then rotate the spindle 180 degrees and see if the readings for each end still match the 1st set of readings :scratch:


Tim

Thats what I do with mine its still OK after a souple of years use.

Stew
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Spurry on December 07, 2011, 04:35:04 AM
The clocks are mounted so that the plungers can collapse inside the base. The unit is held firmly on a flat surface and the clocks zeroed. This is the reason it was so important to do the final machining on the stem while the base was clamped securely to a previously trued face plate. See reply #19 on page 1 of this thread for an explanation.
Joe

I was only asking because I made one too.   :thumbup: I thought it best to protest the plungers from outside influence by only having about 3mm sticking out of the base. So for a quick check, the gadget is just placed on the machine table.

Pete
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: fatal-exception on December 07, 2011, 09:53:48 AM
I clamped the tool on top of some parallels and zeroed the indicators by sliding them up and down till they both read the same. I'm not sure if the anvils will go all the way up inside the tool body...I will check.

As far as the tram of the lathe goes, I have no idea if the headstock is out. I would need to reference the centerline of spindle rotation with the ways to see if it's out. I would assume a TGP rod in the chuck and a dial indicator riding on the carriage would do the trick. But then who's to say the chuck is clamping strait? Maybe the solution is the same way this tools spindle was done? The point is though, the tailstock axis in not on the same axis as the spindle and should be addressed. (some day)

Well, if anything, this has brought up some good points and discussion... :beer:

Paul
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: unc1esteve on December 08, 2011, 11:06:03 AM
My first post.  I recently made several 'diamond' tool holders (tangential).  The position of the left handed tool you are using is almost the same as the diamond tool with the same cutting results.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Balljoint on March 12, 2012, 12:27:39 PM
Hi John

I have followed your advice and made myself the tramming tool, and have to agree with you about how wonderfully easy it is to use, so now my mill table is as near as dammit spot on. I  then tried the tramming tool on the bottom of my Vertex K4 vice, and found it to be out by about 6 thou, have you got any advice on the best way to try and true up the vice to the mill table
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: loply on March 12, 2012, 04:50:28 PM
Hi John

I have followed your advice and made myself the tramming tool, and have to agree with you about how wonderfully easy it is to use, so now my mill table is as near as dammit spot on. I  then tried the tramming tool on the bottom of my Vertex K4 vice, and found it to be out by about 6 thou, have you got any advice on the best way to try and true up the vice to the mill table

I have the K5 vice, this isn't good news! Will have to check mine now. Should probably have done it when I first bought it.

...Need to get a surface grinder so I can sort things like this out more easily.
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 12, 2012, 08:45:30 PM
Hi John

I have followed your advice and made myself the tramming tool, and have to agree with you about how wonderfully easy it is to use, so now my mill table is as near as dammit spot on. I  then tried the tramming tool on the bottom of my Vertex K4 vice, and found it to be out by about 6 thou, have you got any advice on the best way to try and true up the vice to the mill table

You might want to start a new thread with this question. This thread is pretty old and people may not read it as much.

Eric
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 13, 2012, 05:13:30 AM
Hi John

I have followed your advice and made myself the tramming tool, and have to agree with you about how wonderfully easy it is to use, so now my mill table is as near as dammit spot on. I  then tried the tramming tool on the bottom of my Vertex K4 vice, and found it to be out by about 6 thou, have you got any advice on the best way to try and true up the vice to the mill table

When I worked grown up machinery for a living, "my" machine was also used/ abused by others, on different shifts. Occasionally I had to deburr the table, and the bases of the mating jigs/ fixtures etc.

Afterwards, I always seated the vices to the table, with the fixed, hard jaw pad removed.
Then I took "a couple of thou", from the fixed jaw face and the top of the base, using a 2 or 3" dia endmill. Thus ensuring all was square and true to the machine spindle......  :thumbup:

David D

Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: raynerd on October 01, 2012, 06:15:58 PM
Where did the pics go  :scratch:

I`m sure there are other threads, infact, did Stew build one of these?? any links, my search is failing!
Title: Re: Milling machine tram tool
Post by: raynerd on October 01, 2012, 06:18:28 PM
for anyone else looking, I found it:

Here is the same thing but with all pics still attached. thanks Stew!!

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1077.0