Author Topic: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine  (Read 185157 times)

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #200 on: August 19, 2009, 02:36:06 PM »
Ooohhh....... Stew.....

I really feel for you........

Dunno what to say......  :scratch:

Chin up mate. You`ll sort it......  :smart:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #201 on: August 19, 2009, 03:05:47 PM »
Will it help if I have a beer too?  :D

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline shoey51

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #202 on: August 19, 2009, 03:18:51 PM »
Will it help if I have a beer too?  :D

Bernd

and me too :D

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #203 on: August 19, 2009, 03:41:34 PM »
Stew,

Pressure is off a bit for now, so if you need a bit of assistance, I am only a few minutes away, but you will have to make sure I can fit in your shop first.


Bogs

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #204 on: August 19, 2009, 04:01:21 PM »
Thanks chaps

More beer  :beer: the better:- it can't do any arm.
 
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:


Thanks for the offer John I nearly gave you a ring this afternoon, I was starting to confuse myself  :scratch:, I thought I understood how it worked but I've doubts now. I'll give you a call next week sometime I can always stick it in the back of the car and bring it round.

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline 28ten

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #205 on: August 19, 2009, 04:08:35 PM »
I feel your pain, although I have never had to get valve gear to work as in perform it's function, I have fitted full inside gear in my small models, best thing is to take a break, work on something else and start from the beginning when you feel calm and mentally ready for it.
it is a great sense of achievement when it all works though. this might inspire you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=498lQ3gOzS8&feature=related it's not mine, but I have done several like it.
If it ain't broke, i'll fix it until it is.

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #206 on: August 19, 2009, 04:13:08 PM »
I always wondered where the engine was on a train.....call me slow...but most people look at the boilers and say doesn't that look nice.....

Feel for ya Stew, you'll get there...you have to....
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Divided he ad

  • WARNING: LIKES SHINEY THINGS
  • The Collective
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1950
  • Country: gb
  • Between Chester, Wrexham, ruthin & Holywell :-)
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #207 on: August 19, 2009, 04:47:01 PM »
Quote
but you will have to make sure I can fit in your shop first.
   :lol:  You got about as much chance as me John.... You won't be able to stand up!!  :lol:

The shop really is built for Stew  :thumbup:



Sounds like it's a lot of fun Stew.... I have never tried to work a steam engine timing out but it can't be too different from internal combustion can it?
Forward/rear as top/bottom dead centre etc..... maybe you could find some mad interweb graffix to show a cutaway of an engine running to help get your head around it?

Or I suppose you could just ask Bogs?   :thumbup: 



Don't do too much of the demon drink Stew.... You'll never make it up for work tomorrow! .... Oh! Never mind. As you were  :beer:




Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline CrewCab

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #208 on: August 19, 2009, 04:58:48 PM »
Just to do my part to help, I've opened a can of beer as well  :beer:

I'd agree Stew, have a break and come back to it in a day or two, in the meantime you'll probably have a "Eureka" moment and all will become clear, here's hoping anyway.

CC

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #209 on: August 19, 2009, 05:09:19 PM »
I feel your pain, although I have never had to get valve gear to work as in perform it's function, I have fitted full inside gear in my small models, best thing is to take a break, work on something else and start from the beginning when you feel calm and mentally ready for it.
it is a great sense of achievement when it all works though. this might inspire you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=498lQ3gOzS8&feature=related it's not mine, but I have done several like it.

That wot I want it to do, thanks for posting.

Thanks for you encouragement Chaps, I'm going to give it a rest until next week.

Wot's work Ralph  :scratch: thats a four letter word ------------------------------ isn't that what I use to do before I retired.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have fun

Stew


A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Divided he ad

  • WARNING: LIKES SHINEY THINGS
  • The Collective
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1950
  • Country: gb
  • Between Chester, Wrexham, ruthin & Holywell :-)
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #210 on: August 19, 2009, 05:12:18 PM »
Is this any help????




http://www.animatedengines.com/locomotive.shtml




I'm trying (yer I know the punch line!!  ::)  )




Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #211 on: August 19, 2009, 06:20:41 PM »
Stew,

I've done this many years ago but will have to do it again! Not to put to blunt a point on it, it's a right pain in the arse with inside cylinders and valve gear!

Do you have LBSC's notes from model engineer. I borrowed all the copies I needed from our club a while back and am looking at them now ... it's all coming back to me!

As he says, for this engine the eccentrics lag the cranks by 90 degrees. This is because of that motion shaft with the rockers. They reverse the motion of the eccentric rods so when the rod is travelling forward to front of engine, the valve is travelling backwards.

So, first thing to do is set the eccentrics as near as you can to the diagram by eye:

Set the crank so you have the right hand crank at forward dead centre.

The eccentric sheave at the far right of the crank (no 1) is for forward motion for the right hand cylinder set that to it's extreme upward position.

The next sheave (no 2) is for the reverse motion of the right hand cylinder, so set this 180 degrees away from the first sheave. That is in it's extreme downward position.

The next sheave (no 3) is for the reverse motion of the left hand cylinder. Set this to its extreme forward position … towards front of loco.

The last (far left, no 4) sheave is for the forward motion of the left hand cylinder, set this to the extreme rear position, 180 degrees apart from the previous sheave.

This has achieved the starting point.

If this is actually possible, tighten the setscrews in sheaves 4, 3 and 2 (all but far right one) just enough to prevent accidental movement and put on the straps.
Nip no 1 set screw so you can still move the sheave but it will stay where you place it.

Take off the steam chest cover but put 4 of the screws back in to maintain steam chest’s correct location.

With the right hand crank at forward dead centre, pull up the half of the eccentric strap attached to its rod tight up against the sheave and have a look at the valve.

Make sure the reverser is in full forward position and a hairline crack should be appearing between the edge of the valve and the front inlet port on the right hand cylinder.

Whilst holding the eccentric strap tight up against the sheave still with one hand, apply light pressure to the front face of the valve (i.e pushing it towards rear of loco) to see if the hairline crack appears.

If it isn’t there, you need to wind the sheave on very slightly (clockwise if looking from the right hand frame of the engine) and reapeat the above test until it does.

If the crack is already too large, wind the sheave back very slighly (anti clockwise if looking from the right hand frame) and repeat the test until the crack is a hairline one.

Once you have achieved this hairline crack with the crank at forwad dead centre, lock up the setscrew.

Now hold the half eccentric strap against the sheave and turn the wheels over in forward direction until the crank is on back dead centre (piston has moved to extreme rear of cylinder).

Have a look at the valve whilst still holding the eccentric strap against its sheave. It should have moved forwards.

Again, apply light finger pressure to the valve, this time to the rear of the valve pushing towards the front of the loco.

If all is well, the same hair line crack should be appearing on the rear inlet port now.

If it does, bobs your uncle, tighten the set screw up as much as well as you can and fit the other half of the eccentric strap.

If the back port doesn’t show a hair line crack after having successfully adjusted the front one, it means the valve is too long. It can be shortened, but you need to take an equal amount off both ends of the valve to ensure the exhaust cavity remains bang in the middle of the valve. It will only be a minute amount you need to take off.

If you do need to do this, it will enlargen the gap at the front port, but you don’t need to re-time it, you just alter the position of the valve slightly on its spindle. Move it forward by the amount you skimmed off that end.

Now check the rear inlet port with the crank at back dead centre and the strap up against it’s sheave again. If the hair line crack is present at forward and back dead centre, you’ve cracked it. The timing is correct, the strap can be tightened and the other half of the strap replaced.

Now you need to put the reverser to the full reverse position to set the right hand cylinder for backward running!

This is done in the same way,

set the right hand crank to forward dead centre

remove the back half of eccentric strap no 2

Pull the strap and rod up to the sheave and look at the valve whilst applying light finger pressure pushing towards rear of loco.

Check for the hairline crack, if it’s not there rotate it slightly anticlockwise this time if looking from right hand frame (wheels will be spinning anti clockwise when in reverse).

Keep repeating until get the hairline crack between valve and front inlet port.

Once achieved, nip the setscrew up, hold the no 2 strap against sheave and rotate the wheels anticlockwise until crank is at back dead centre.

Repeat procedure, have a look at valve whilst keeping strap hard against sheave and applying light finger pressure on valve pushing towards front of loco.

If hairline crack is there, you’re in business. If not, you need to adjust the length of the valve as before.

Once the hairline crack is achieved at both forward dead centre and back dead centre lock up the set screw and refit the other half of strap!

That’s 1 cylinder down, all you need to do is repeat for the other side!

Remember that eccentric no 3 is the reversing eccentric for the left hand cylinder so treat that the same as number 2 and treat no 4 eccentric the same as the first one.

If you achieve all this the engine will be timed perfectly.

The main problems I had as I’ve said before was locking the eccentrics positively, and it’s all so fiddley to get into.

I hope this is of some use when you give it another go. You’ll get there, it’s just a very frustrating procedure and it doesn’t help that it’s so difficult to get at everything.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #212 on: August 20, 2009, 01:42:31 AM »
Hi Nick

Thanks for this information that is basicaly is what I've been trying to do, but I can't get my head round where you set the valve spindle for when you start is there set distance from the coupling to the valve face ?, or doesn't it matter, from the build notes and your info it doesn't seem to matter as there was no mention of a start point in Curleys notes  :scratch:, you're advice makes better sense  when you said:- "but you don’t need to re-time it, you just alter the position of the valve slightly on its spindle".

My other big problem is what you had trouble with and what we've discussed before the sheave slipping on the axle, I've tried 8ba grub screws they don't seam to be up to the job I've tried trade bought slotted grub screws there not up to the job, the best results I've had is from long slotted grub screws I made by turning down some M4 cap screws (tougher material) and grinding a point on the end so that they bite in.

Thanks for your advice Nick much appreciated.

I'll get there eventually:- how can I fail with you Maddmoder Chaps supporting me

 :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks:


Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #213 on: August 20, 2009, 03:45:27 AM »
Stew,

Good point, I didn't see any notes on that. I think it would matter, as if you had it set too far to one end Thinking about it, a better starting point may be to set your initial position of the eccentrics as near as you can by eye with the right hand crank to forward dead centre, then adjust the valve on it's spindle so that it's bang in the centre, I don't have the drawing here but I think the length of the valve is exactly the same distance from the extreme edges of the front and rear ports? So you should set the valve on its spindle so that you can't see any of the ports. Otherwise as you say, you don't have a decent starting point.

I think that's what's in mine, slotted grub screws. Pretty useless. I think the way you went with the point ground on is probably the only way.

Hope that helps, I remember it's a lot more difficult in practice! It maybe needs 2 heads and pairs of eyes on the job, one might remember something the other doesn't!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #214 on: August 20, 2009, 04:42:07 AM »
Stew,

If possible, to set the timing up, your need to be able to see the slide valves in operation and their relationship to the ports and crank position. The eccentrics should be in a fixed position to the crank, and once set, should not be played about with. All timing is done with the slide valve adjusters.

Once you have the basic timing and the engine running, then you tweak on the valve operating rods to get it spot on.

It is very difficult to put into words, but if you have downloaded my piston valve book, the timing is done in the same way and is shown in there.

Once you get the grasp of what needs to be done, then it will be a flat forehead time, as you slap yourself on it for not realising how it should be done.

John

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #215 on: August 20, 2009, 05:19:54 AM »
Stew,

I guess you could do this either way. If doing it Bogs way you will need a method of setting the eccentrics in relation to the cranks. I was just thinking and I think you could do this between centres in the lathe using gravity to let the eccentric fall to it's extreme downward position before locking up. This would only work if the sheaves are a nice sliding fit on the shaft. Obviously you'd need to work out where to position the crank for each eccentric.

For no. 1 (right hand)  you would need the right hand crank at back dead centre, since the eccentric is meant to be extreme upward position at forward dead centre. Let the sheave swing down and tighten.

No 2. you would need the crank at forward dead centre, let the eccentric sheave swing down and tighten.

No. 3. You need the right hand crank to be pointing down (sorry can't remember where the left hand crank sits in relation to the right one). so rotate clockwise 90 degrees looking from right hand end. Let eccentric sheave no 3 swing down and tighten.

No. 4 rotate crank 180 degrees, let sheave 4 swing down and tighten.

If your eccentric sheaves aren't a loose sliding fit, this won't work, there must be a better method. Of course you could set a clock gauge up on each 1 and turn until it reaches it's extreme position.

Once you're happy they are all set in the right positions, you should in theory be able to put the straps on and time it up the way Bogs said again making sure the crank and reverser are in the right positions as per the other instructions but this time moving the valve on it's spindle to attain the hairline crack. I think moving the eccentrics gives you more scope for adjustment though enabling you to optimise the timing both in forward and reverse directions.

Give it a go, it might work better or be more obvious what you are doing. Any method that avoids messing about with those eccentrics must be good!

Nick

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #216 on: August 20, 2009, 02:35:29 PM »
Hi Chaps

Thanks for your help and advice its sounds like I'm not a hundred miles off, what I've been doing is lining the eccentrics clamp hole up with the holes that take the web pins they are both on the centre line, bringing the crank on forward dead centre, at this point It all goes to cock because I don't understand the function of the slide valve spindle, that and eccentrics slip  :bang:

I'm away fro a few days so I'll give it a go when I get back.

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline CrewCab

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #217 on: August 20, 2009, 02:46:01 PM »
Have a good time Stew

and you never know, that "Eureka" moment might just creep up on you

 :beer: CC

Offline arnoldb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
  • Country: na
  • Windhoek, Namibia
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #218 on: August 21, 2009, 01:46:00 PM »
Stew, this is a great build and ever so well documented!  :clap:  :clap:
Had to read it start-to-finish - quite an eye-opener  :smart:

Have a nice trip  :wave:

Arnold

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #219 on: August 29, 2009, 06:28:06 AM »
Hi Chaps

I bet you'd thought I'd given up on this, old Stew's not beaten that easily.

Well I did a fair bit of fettling when I got back from being away, sorted out a few areas of binding the main one was from the lifting link hitting the motion frame when it was in the forward position. But still couldn't get it set, I had a few ideas what further fettling was required, but by this time I was losing faith in my own understanding of the system, so took it around to John's for him to have a look at. John patiently explained how to set the valves, I was pleased to here it was how I'd been doing it, John turned things over measured and checked everything seemed to work but things were still fouling on the steam chest, in half an hour John came up with the same fettling ideas  that it had taken me two weeks to figure out.

Johns help was greatly appreciated.

This morning I modified the the steam chest as John suggested but still couldn't get the timing right, but Johns tutorial and watching his methodoligy gave me the confidence that I was going through the correct process, so I started to look at thing afresh.

And found that I've assembled the excentric straps wrong  :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

they should be:-

Forward strap, Reverse strap, Reverse strap, Forward Strap.

 what I've done is:-
 Forward strap, Reverse strap, Forward strap, Reverse strap,

No wonder I was struggling, the bloody thing was going when it should have been coming and coming when it should have been going:

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

I've got to strip the linkage down and assembly correctly, which is a job for tomorrow, so keep watching this space.

Not yet beaten

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #220 on: August 29, 2009, 09:47:24 AM »
I often don`t know whether I`m coming or going, been or gone!  ::)

Was that a lightbulb moment Stew? I wish I`d got half your patience......  :wave:

Good luck, again, this time.......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #221 on: August 29, 2009, 10:53:40 AM »
Sometimes Stew, it is better to put it under the bench for a day or two, then come back to it with a fresh mind, and check everything methodically from start to finish.

I didn't even spot anything wrong in that department, but we only looked at one eccentric anyway, just to see if the timing could be obtained, and of course we found the jamming problem.

I bet that once you have those swapped over, and the hack off mods we talked about, you will have no more troubles in that department, except for the locking system for the eccentrics.

John

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #222 on: August 29, 2009, 11:40:53 AM »
Well done on finding the timing problem Stew! It will be fine now, it is still a silly way of locking the eccentrics though. I wonder if it might be worth drilling and pinning permanently once in the right position. Then any overall timing can be adjusted by moving the valve on its spindle as Bogs suggested?

NIck
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline arnoldb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 515
  • Country: na
  • Windhoek, Namibia
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #223 on: August 29, 2009, 05:29:49 PM »
Quote
I bet you'd thought I'd given up on this, old Stew's not beaten that easily.

What?  :scratch:  :scratch: If you give up, you'll be getting a lot of  :whip:   :lol:

Going great guns Stew  :thumbup: - when it's running, it will be worth so much more , unlike easy come easy go  ::)

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Building a 31/2" Gauge Locomotive Engine
« Reply #224 on: September 01, 2009, 07:55:30 AM »
Well next instalemt of this epic

I put the valve linkage right, things were better in that the linkage was moving in a logical way, but still couldn't get the timing correct, when John had a look at it he said he thought that I needed to take a couple of mm off the slide valve.  :hammer:

Before I started on such drastic action I decided to go back to first principles and work the valve sizes out for myself, so looking on my book shelf, found these two books with detail info on slide valve design.



They were saying the proportions of the slide valve should be as sketch:-



 I know that these proportions are not set in stone, and there are countless variation on this to meet variouse design criteria, but for me this was a good place to start.

So using these criteria I worked out some sizes for the slide valve and low and behold they said I needed to take 1mm per side off the valve (Johns 2mm  :bow: :bow: :bow:)

Not wanting to jump in with 2 feet and start cutting the valves about, this morning I made a dummy valve out of some brass to these calculated sizes tried it out and it looks like it will work may have to take a little bit more off so I'll give it a go on the dummy to see how it looks.

Fealing hopefull

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire