Author Topic: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!  (Read 48381 times)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2009, 01:59:48 AM »
John,

I know it can be very difficult when you start to learn a completely new discipline.

I think your best bet would be to try to obtain some engineering adhesives rather than relying on what adhesives you already know about.

I buy a Loctite clone high strength engineering adhesive, about half the price of normal Loctite, at about 12 squid for a medium sized bottle. You only use it in drops, and it lasts me a couple of years at least. In fact most times it goes well out of date before the bottle is empty.

I also have two smaller bottles, about a fiver each, one is for high strength fits with up to 0.25mm (0.010") gaps, and the other is a bearing fit. These two are the ones that can really get you out of a fix, but not used as often as the above. The gap filler one is much thicker than the other two, so it stays where it is put. They all work on the principle of setting when there is no air present, so when they come, the bottles are only half full, they don't go off when they have plenty of space around them.

Those three take care of almost any job I am liable to encounter.

They do take up to 24 hours to reach max strength, but they are really well worth having in your arsenal.

John

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2009, 02:14:33 AM »
John

Thats good advice from Bogs, I've had a lot of experience with industrial adhesives and used in the right place they do a great job use them in the wrong place or in the wrong way and your in trouble, hence people shy away from them. Just to give you an idea of how good they can be if used correctly, its now common practice to fasten Full size loco wheels to the axles using high strength loctite.

If you google loctite there some good info there about how to use there product.

Have fun

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline John Hill

  • The Artful Bodger
  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Country: nz
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2009, 04:05:26 PM »
Thanks, all good advice and well noted chaps but I think I will be sticking with the super glue until I see that my concept is valid as I do want to be able to drop it in boiling water if necessary to dismantle and remake any bits.

Right now even the frame is glued together but thats only until I can double check the geometry for the port openings, such cylindrical, three dimensional, hyper-whatsit solutions I find to be unachievable by the calculation method.


Meanwhile my Swedish blowlamp is soaking in thinners and may be usable again soon which should serve admirably to pre-heat the bits for soldering in the final assembly of the frame.


« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:08:37 PM by John Hill »
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2009, 06:18:51 PM »
John,

Just been able to look at your pics on this thread as haven't had internet at home until today due to moving house (pics won't show at work from your host). Looks a very intriguing project and will continue to follow it.
Great work!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline John Hill

  • The Artful Bodger
  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Country: nz
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2009, 02:19:22 AM »
All the bits together in one place at last!





But not finished yet, I still have to make the port openings.  First step use a felt pen to mark the piston skirt......



... so I put the pen in the exhaust port and turned the engine through one revolution.  This is what I got on the piston skirt..



.... and there we have it!  A nice oblate shape  showing clearly that ports can be cut that will be open on the inlet stroke and closed on the exhaust (and vice versa)  which is exactly what is required.
From the den of The Artful Bodger

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2009, 05:24:34 AM »
Very ingenious thoughts and ways of doing things John, and you are showing that you are not the simpleton you make yourself out to be.

I can't wait to see how this is going to turn out.

They are having a bit of a discusssion over on the 'other site' about sleeve valve engines, which is 180 degrees out from what you are doing, rotating the cylinder instead of the piston to obtain port timing.

This might be a bit of an interesting read for you. I have a friend who has one of the horizontal versions, very compact and innovative. Lots of easily understood principles are shown the deeper you search.

http://www.rcvengines.com/


John

Offline John Hill

  • The Artful Bodger
  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Country: nz
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2009, 05:25:26 PM »
John,  OK the idea was original to me but I am not the first to think of it!  I found reference to an engine in a museum somewhere c1878 which by the description operates on a similar principle except the piston was rotated by some sort of cam and lever.  There is a current oscillating piston model  steam/air engine online which gets the rotation via a 90 degree lever connection to the crank.  So far as I have found mine is the only one where the piston motion is controlled by the wonky big end.

The designs that use ports in the piston itself require a rather heavy piston which would have to be solid for the length of the stroke whereas mine uses a minimum weight piston and an attached sleeve that works in a space in the upper cylinder formed by the outer cylinder and a 'displacer' which is a loose fit inside the piston sleeve.  That form of sleeve-in-head is not original as the Junkers diesel aircraft engines of WWII used the same arrangement.  I believe some sleeve valve cars used the same thing where it was called a 'junk head'.

Rotating the sleeve independant of the piston is essential for four stroke operation (as far as I can see).

Obviously I am however not as smart as I thought as examination of my engine as it is so far has shown that the cylinder is too short and the piston ports would be exposed at the bottom of the stroke! :doh:  Oh dear, another 3 inches of water pipe will have to go in the lathe!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 05:28:25 PM by John Hill »
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2009, 06:10:33 PM »
Oh dear, another 3 inches of water pipe will have to go in the lathe!

Otherwise known as R&D, perfectly normal chain of events..... :thumbup:

It's looking good btw.... :clap:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline John Hill

  • The Artful Bodger
  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Country: nz
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2009, 03:54:49 AM »


Exhaust ports drilled in the piston sleeve,  I had intended to cut a slot until at the last moment I remembered this is just cold rolled pipe and with unknown internal stresses I might have lost the shape by cutting too much out, so a row of holes it is.   The inlet port is the same sort of thing on the other side of the sleeve but there are only 3 or 4 holes.



All complete, and it runs.....

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Yes, yes, I know a video would be nice but no camera right now..
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 03:59:11 AM by John Hill »
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2009, 04:04:23 AM »
It RUNS!!!  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Blummin well done John!  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline spuddevans

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Country: 00
  • Portadown, Northern Ireland
    • My Photo website
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2009, 08:50:17 AM »
You have a winner!! Runner!!  :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:

It's a wonderful feeling when you get even a simple wobbler running, so you must have even more joy with the level of complexity in this one  :thumbup:

Well done !!
Tim
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe  -  MI0TME

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2009, 08:50:57 AM »
Nice job Dave.

Really would love to see it run. Where do we send the donations to so you can get a camera?  :lol:

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2009, 11:57:27 AM »
Nice job Dave.
Really would love to see it run. Where do we send the donations to so you can get a camera?  :lol:
Bernd

Who?  :scratch:

John innit?   :wave:

He can borrow my camera.....  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2009, 12:04:52 PM »
Wow well done Dave
 
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

After reading and re reading your posts I think I understand how it works very ingeneouse.

First class

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2009, 12:13:12 PM »
Well...... Am reight confused now.......  ::)
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline CrewCab

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2009, 12:31:42 PM »
Well done John ..........  :headbang: ................ now please go borrow a camera  :dremel:

CC

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2009, 12:34:14 PM »
Well done John ..........  :headbang: ................ now please go borrow a camera  :dremel:

CC

Thanks Dave.......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline CrewCab

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2009, 12:50:28 PM »
Thanks Dave.......  :thumbup:

Nay probs, thaa's reeet welcum lad  :coffee:

CC

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2009, 05:20:52 PM »
John that's great. Can't wait to see the video! I had to read your notes on first page but get it now!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2009, 01:58:12 PM »
Glad you got it running John, well done.

I always fancied making one of these



A swashplate engine, and when you study it very closely, it is all to do with timing, as the cylinder rods aren't actually connected to the plate, but actually 'nudge' the plate around in sequence.

John

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2009, 04:56:34 AM »
Bogs,

I like that one more than other versions I've seen with horrible flexible connecting rods!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline CallMeAl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • I came, I saw, I wondered how to do it!
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2009, 11:17:48 AM »
Very interesting concept.  I really enjoy seeing unusual engine designs.

Nice build, I am looking forward to seeing it run.

When I see something like this and then find out the design is based on an idea 100+ years ago I am amazed at the ingenuity.  All done without CAD, computers, etc.

Thanks, John, for showing me another new "twist" :thumbup:
I skin cats my own way!

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2010, 04:09:56 AM »
Have I missed something, again?  ::)

I still can`t see a video! 

Is kit me:scratch:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: The Artful Bodger's nutating engine!
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2010, 12:21:08 PM »
John

Thats good advice from Bogs, I've had a lot of experience with industrial adhesives and used in the right place they do a great job use them in the wrong place or in the wrong way and your in trouble, hence people shy away from them. Just to give you an idea of how good they can be if used correctly, its now common practice to fasten Full size loco wheels to the axles using high strength loctite.

If you google loctite there some good info there about how to use there product.

Have fun

Stew
Hi all, with regard to locktite, when using the "stud and bearing mount" max strength, a regular amount of "press" is recommended, with the locktite acting as a lubricant for the pressing, and it does fill in sub-microscopic voids and the intersticies of the grain of the metal, so it is in fact, a much stronger joint than it would be without the locktite, even though it would seem all the fluid would be squeezed out, logically.  I would say this is why it is now used on full sized loco wheels.  We used it with shafts and such in jet engines on helicopters in the Marines for permanent mounting, decades ago with success.  There's a lot more room "inside" a press fit joint that logic and imagination would lend credit for.  mad jack